PHKLM
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Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:58 pm

As is rumored in the thread Air France A380 Test Flight To YUL In Nov. (by FlySSC Sep 27 2007 in Civil Aviation) there is a possible change in the Y product on AF long-haul.

For quite some time we have heard the rumors about the KLM 77W becoming 10 abreast in Y. One argument against this change (KLM now has 9 abreast in the 772) except from diminished comfort was the difference that would be created between the KLM Y product (10 abreast) and Air France (9 abreast). But, AF seems to be considering to launch a new cabin config on the 77W starting next month, featuring 10 abreast in Y without increasing the seat pitch. I would expect this increases the Y cabin with 25 to 30 seats. However, others mention an increase on the 77W from 235Y to 250Y seats, by adopting a new cabin-config and moving around "dead space" in the form of galleys and lavs.

It is suggested that there might be more to this, and that AF is considering on splitting up the Y cabin into a Y- and a Y+ cabin. The Y cabin will have 10 abreast seating, no champagne, different meals, whereas the Y+ cabin will have 9 abreast, champagne, etc. I can be expected SkyTeam elites will be seated in the Y+ section, as well as pax that pay the higher economy fares. A logical move. You pay less, you get less. This development is seen in other international airlines and would be totally understandable from a AF/KL point of view.

Last but not least, there have been talks about refitting the 772 with 10 abreast also.
FYI, the info in his thread is mainly based on FlySSCs' contributions in the thread mentioned above.

Your thoughts?

[Edited 2007-09-30 13:00:20]
 
CV990
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:19 pm

Hi!

I flew AF last June to FIH and I flew KL in 2005 to KIX, both in Y and both offered me a great service. I can understand that AF/KL wants to make changes in their Y class, but I think that should be done in special markets, like North America for example, I don't think that would be the best idea in markets like Africa, Asia or South America. Let's see, I paid € 1.500 for my round trip LIS/CDG/FIH/CDG/LIS, I think that's more than enough for AF to give a glass or two of champagne, and a decent meal...and that's what I got, an excellent service. When I flew to KIX once again Kl offered me a great service too, and I'm sure AF would do that too, but if they change that they'll probably lose some market to asian airlines that normally have such a high standard of service even in Y that I don't know if I would consider or not flying with them. In the north american market, well that's a bit different, US airlines normally don't even give any complementary drinks in Y, european yes, I think I could handle a not sophisticated service for a good price...but only in North America!
Just my opinion.
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
FlySSC
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:43 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Thread starter):
I would expect this increases the Y cabin with 25 to 30 seats. However, others mention an increase on the 77W from 235Y to 250Y seats, by adopting a new cabin-config and moving around "dead space" in the form of galleys and lavs.

As you say, going from 9-abreast to 10-abreast would represent an addition of 25/30 seats.
In the Air France reservation system, the capacity in Y on the B77W that will be used to operate AF346/AF347 next winter in now 250 Y instead of the current 235 Y, so it sounds more likely to me that this increase will be made possible moving around "dead space", or redisiging the Galley at Door 4, closets, etc ...

Quoting PHKLM (Thread starter):
It is suggested that there might be more to this, and that AF is considering on splitting up the Y cabin into a Y- and a Y+ cabin.

For a long time, Air France was reluctant to the idea of an "Economy +", as they say it could affect the loads in J.
Considering the success of such a class with other airlines, the more and more "segmentation" of the passengers, and the big success of the "Tempo Challenge" in Europe, and "Alizée" in the Caribbean, AF can longer ignore the interest of such a Y +/- product.
When, Where, and How it will be adopted is another premature question ...



Quoting PHKLM (Thread starter):
It is suggested that there might be more to this, and that AF is considering on splitting up the Y cabin into a Y- and a Y+ cabin. The Y cabin will have 10 abreast seating, no champagne, different meals, whereas the Y+ cabin will have 9 abreast, champagne, etc.

Once again, all these are at the stage of rumors and nothing has been confirmed (nor denied) by AF, That's why I was waiting to post a thread on this subject, but now that you've done it, PHKLM ...  Wink



Quoting CV990 (Reply 1):
I can understand that AF/KL wants to make changes in their Y class, but I think that should be done in special markets, like North America for example,

You are absolutely right. Just like the First class was kept only on the markets where there is a demand for it, the Y+/- could be adopted for certain markets also like North America.
 
LY777
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:55 pm

I hope these changes will not happen, I would not understand why AF would dowgrade their Y product whereas all carriers tend to upgrade it. It would be really disappointed!
Flown:A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388,717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W,D8,D10,L
 
TGV
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:21 am

The big question is what will be the changes:

Option 1: Y+ = Actual Y and Y- = Downgraded Y (10 abreast in a 777 and same pitch)
Option 2: Y+ = Upgraded Y (for example 8 abreast in a 777 and better pitch, as made by BR), and Y- = Actual Y

There was a thread in Flyertalk on this subject,
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=739669

with the cabin map of the 777 used to YUL in Nov for AF 346:
http://links.pictures.aol.com/pic/09...4OYvPEC3cEJXHaDEv4xQp5Fd3Ig=_l.jpg

And as they sell First class on this flight we can unfortunately assume it is not a temporary replacement by a 77W COI !

So it seems the Option 1 is already underway.

I don't care about champagne, I dont' care obout IFE, I don't care very much about the food or the service, I mainly care about space on-board.

If I pay 1300/1500 euros for CCS-CDG-CCS and end in a noisy 777 with a 3-4-3 cabin and the actual pitch, I assure you I will not be amused.

And I will undoubtly exchange this for an any LH / IB / UX flight on board a silent aibus with a 2-4-2 cabin, far cheaper in addition ! It will be a little longer and with a transfer, but far more comfortable.
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
 
LY777
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:50 am

Quoting TGV (Reply 4):
Option 2: Y+ = Upgraded Y (for example 8 abreast in a 777 and better pitch, as made by BR), and Y- = Actual Y

OK, if this is that option
Flown:A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388,717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W,D8,D10,L
 
PHKLM
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:33 am

Quoting TGV (Reply 4):
with the cabin map of the 777 used to YUL in Nov for AF 346:

Based on this map, the capacity of the 77W is indeed increased!
Between doors 4 and 5 there are currently 121 Y seats.
On the screen-dump shown in the link above there are 128 Y seats between doors 4 and 5.
This means an increase of 7 seats in this section. However, based on the number of rows I am inclined to say the seat width has been reduced with the seat pitch increased!

New config:
http://links.pictures.aol.com/pic/0950SNZMUX2j20QgmIDk4OYvPEC3cEJXHaDEv4xQp5Fd3Ig=_l.jpg

Old config (c) Air France:
http://www.airfrance.fr/common/image/PlansCabine/fr/B777300_nev_310pax_maxi_fr.gif

If any mod reads this: can the word "rumor" be removed from the title?

[Edited 2007-09-30 19:35:18]
 
ZRH
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:38 am

10 abreast in a 777 is horrible as 9 in 330/340 is. I would never ever fly with such an airline. I really find that even the normal Y seats (9 in 777 and 8 in 330/340) are too narrow (I am not fat). Economy in our days is a real nightmare.
 
PHKLM
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting ZRH (Reply 7):
10 abreast in a 777 is horrible as 9 in 330/340 is

Well, it's official guys. AF is going for 10 abreast in Y on the main-line fleet.
You can all see it when booking a flight to YUL in November via the AF website.
The total Y capacity of the 77W will be 134 pax in the first cabin, and 128 in the second, making it 262 in total.
An increase of 27 seats over the current config! I therefore need to conclude the seat pitch WILL NOT increase.
So it's gonna be 10 abreast with 32" pitch, incredible! Stupid move by AF.
 
ZRH
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:02 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 8):
Well, it's official guys. AF is going for 10 abreast in Y on the main-line fleet.

Thanks for this information. My personal consequences: I will not fly these airlines anymore in economy.
 
Leskova
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 8):
So it's gonna be 10 abreast with 32" pitch, incredible! Stupid move by AF.



Quoting ZRH (Reply 9):
Quoting PHKLM (Reply 8):
Well, it's official guys. AF is going for 10 abreast in Y on the main-line fleet.

Thanks for this information. My personal consequences: I will not fly these airlines anymore in economy.

While I'll avoid them as well (not too difficult - there's no way my girlfriend is ever willing to connect through AMS again, and her experiences on either AF and KL were also less than flattering to those two airlines), more than enough people will continue to fly them: I seriously doubt they'll end up losing a lot of business and/or revenue because of this... in fact, I'd be surprised to not see this move positively affect the bottom line of both carriers...

... unfortunately.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 7):
I really find that even the normal Y seats (9 in 777 and 8 in 330/340) are too narrow (I am not fat). Economy in our days is a real nightmare.

I've been spared the "pleasure" of a B777 with 10-abreast so far, but I've experienced Airbus widebodies with 9-abreast (they were A300s in my case, but the result is pretty much the same): unbearable for anything beyond an hour.

As for 9 abreast on B777s and 8 abreast on A330/A340s - if the pitch isn't microscopic, I tend to find them comfortable enough.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
B747-4U3
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:19 am

The worrying thing is, if other airlines (for example BA) see this working for Air France and KLM, they might get ideas and start adding 10 abrest in Y to their 777s and 9 abrest in their 787s. BA's crappy 31inch pitch is the piss-pot of god-awfulness at the best of times. Imagine what it will be like with only a 17inch width!!!! I would not put it past BA. Their strategy (and rightly so) is maximising profits (hence more premium class seats, 30inch pitch on 321s). They don't really seem to care about Y class passengers, and they already have a very decent Y+ product. They could view cramming more seats in as a way to encourage more people to fly Y+ or to pay the same price for a Y ticket, but get less in return, hence increasing BA's profits.
 
ZRH
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 10):
I've been spared the "pleasure" of a B777 with 10-abreast so far, but I've experienced Airbus widebodies with 9-abreast (they were A300s in my case, but the result is pretty much the same): unbearable for anything beyond an hour.

I see a very bad future for economy class. The 787 is narrower than the 777 ans most airlines will fly them with 9 abreast.
 
OHLHD
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:20 am

This is not good news! This is one I have to avoid. 10 in the 747 is ok but on the 777.  Smile
 
timo007
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:38 am

Looks like Air France is leading a race to the bottom. I thought their seats were uncomfortable before. Looks like I will keep my business with NWA A330's from CDG to DTW. I really like the two seats on the side especially row 10.

I hope others don't follow.

Cheers

Timo
 
PHKLM
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:41 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 10):
I've been spared the "pleasure" of a B777 with 10-abreast so far

We will have to see how many planes will be fitted with 10 abreast and on what routes they will fly, but it is not a good sign for sure.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 11):
Their strategy (and rightly so) is maximising profits

That is the purpose and the strategy of ALL airlines ... Airlines are not "Philanthropic" companies ...

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 11):
They don't really seem to care about Y class passengers

Sorry to say that, but NO airline really cares of Y passengers ... They are just there to fill in the planes and they are not the one who make the profits.
Sad ... but true !

Air France will not be the first airline to go for 10-abreast in Y in the B777 (see : KLM, EK ...). Something tells me they won't be the last either ...

[Edited 2007-09-30 20:49:24]
 
SB
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:46 am

Yikes! I flew on one of EK's 3-4-3 772s and it was just terrible, the window seat it actually 'cropped' to fit into the curvature of the cabin. Same with the 3-3-3 layout in an A330 (though the downstairs WCs were cool - guess which airline)

I'm quite disappointed to see AF/KL doing this, AF's 77W in 3-3-3 was uncomfortable enough already. Unless their comparatively high fares go down and/or the food/service is improved dramatically I think they may have a hard time keeping regular Y travellers. BA just lost 2 competitors as far as I'm concerned.

S.
"Confirm leave the hold and maintain 320kts?!"
 
ZRH
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:53 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 16):
Sorry to say that, but NO airline really cares of Y passengers ... They are just there to fill in the planes and they are not the one who make the profits.
Sad ... but true !

You are absolutely right. But I don't understand why no airline offers an other deal: I would gladly pay more than the normal economy fare (but much less than business), have NO service and IFE when I would get a reasonable seat width an pitch. I would take my books (need no IFE) my own sandwich and water.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:06 am

Quoting ZRH (Reply 18):
I would gladly pay more than the normal economy fare (but much less than business), have NO service and IFE when I would get a reasonable seat width an pitch

But more width and pitch are what cost money to an airline. Food service and IFE cost much less, and are actually used by a lot of airline as a "compensation" for cramped seats.

Moreover, it may be not important for you (it is not important for me either) but considering the number of threats on IFE and Food service on board, it seems to be important for a lot of people !

Note also that if you ask people what they want they will all answer : Good seat, large pitch, good food, good IFE and VERY LOW FARE.
It would be about time for people to realize that flying is not cheap. It costs a lot, and Will cost more and more to airlines in a near future (environment taxes, higher and higher price of fuel etc ...).
 
ZRH
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 19):
Note also that if you ask people what they want they will all answer : Good seat, large pitch, good food, good IFE and VERY LOW FARE.
It would be about time for people to realize that flying is not cheap. It costs a lot, and Will cost more and more to airlines in a near future (environment taxes, higher and higher price of fuel etc ...).

Yes, but I don't understand these people. I would say: large width, large pitch, large pitch, large width, large width, large pitch...... Big grin
 
Aircellist
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:32 am

On YUL-CDG, AC just introduced 777 service at 10-abreast in Y. I suppose AF could not resist long before doing the same. And, in two-three years, A380 at 11-abreast when AC starts 787 at 9-abreast.

Well... I guess my next flight will probably be on Zoom. Cramped for cramped, let's save a few $...
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
Leskova
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:40 am

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 11):
They don't really seem to care about Y class passengers,

I wouldn't go quite that far - but since passengers have long since lost an interest in paying anything even resembling a realistic fare, I cannot really blame the airlines: then again, the airlines have pretty much brought this problem on themselves anyhow...

Quoting ZRH (Reply 12):
I see a very bad future for economy class. The 787 is narrower than the 777 ans most airlines will fly them with 9 abreast.

... I'll reserve judgement until I experience it for myself, but I don't expect that configuration to be the height of comfort.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 16):
Sorry to say that, but NO airline really cares of Y passengers ... They are just there to fill in the planes and they are not the one who make the profits.
Sad ... but true !

While they don't make the profits, they don't hurt them either: they're useful as a foundation, and they do pay for a varying amount of the base cost that the airline incurrs on a flight - if they didn't, and they actually cost more than what the airlines earned from them, we'd not be seeing Economy class on airlines.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 18):
You are absolutely right. But I don't understand why no airline offers an other deal: I would gladly pay more than the normal economy fare (but much less than business), have NO service and IFE when I would get a reasonable seat width an pitch. I would take my books (need no IFE) my own sandwich and water.

I'd take that offer as well, without hesitation - problem is, most people wouldn't: for most, a flight must be as cheap as remotely possible. Unfortunately, that's what's causing these decisions by AF/KL and other airlines to downgrade their Y class...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
luv2cattlecall
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:56 am

Slightly off topic but I took a trip ATL-Rome (FCO?) on Delta in 2003 and am almost certain that Y was 2-4-2 on a 772. I know now it's 3-3-3 but am I imagining something or was Delta that generous at one point in time? If I remember the seats had lumbar support and were quite thick as well.
.
 
PHKLM
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 23):
Slightly off topic but I took a trip ATL-Rome (FCO?) on Delta in 2003 and am almost certain that Y was 2-4-2 on a 772. I know now it's 3-3-3 but am I imagining something or was Delta that generous at one point in time?

No. Delta's 772's where configured 2-5-2 and hence had the same seat width as they have right now. 2-4-2 in a 772 would be very generous, in comparison, a lot of carriers have 2-3-2 in J class...

See a pic here
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 21):
On YUL-CDG, AC just introduced 777 service at 10-abreast in Y.

Are you sure? AC's T7 are configured with 9 seats abreast in Y
310, 319, 320, 321, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, Saab 340, YAK40
 
CPH757
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:22 am

Hmm. sounds like I'm the only one in here being just a little positive about this. This move by AF makes them able to sell cheaper Y tickets compared to before. I have flown a 10 abreast 777 once (China Southern) and the AF 777's multiple times. I did find the 10 abreast pretty uncomfortable, but would certainly choose it over the 9 abreast if the price is right. And for 10-13 hours of my life (which is really not that long time) - the compensation shouldn't be very large before I'll go for it. Add to that the AF seats are pretty comfortable as they are, and if they really introduce a Y+ section later on, those of you who prefer comfort over a (small) compensation fee, will also be satisfied.

Besides my own preferences, I see this move as smart. People are simply not able to distinguish unless they fly a lot (and AF already have preference seating in Y for elites, and looking at the new seatmap, there are actually 5 rows of 2-4-2 in the back combined with exit seats etc - should be enough for that purpose), still making the fare price the single most important factor in determining the carrier. This move by AF just makes them more likely to be the airline providing the best price option.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 19):
Note also that if you ask people what they want they will all answer : Good seat, large pitch, good food, good IFE and VERY LOW FARE.

Bingo...and a hell of a free bar Big grin
Last flight: SAW-CPH on H9 on 02/11/09 - Next Flights: 23/12/09 CPH-AAL on QI, 30/12/09 CPH-LHR on SK, 19/01/10 CPH-CDG-
 
ZRH
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:24 am

I am really getting old  Smile . I remember the old days when I was a teenager Swissair had 8 abreast (2-4-2) in their DC 10 in economy before they changed to 9 (2-4-3) as they then also had in their MD 11.
 
ZRH
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:33 am

Quoting CPH757 (Reply 26):
Hmm. sounds like I'm the only one in here being just a little positive about this. This move by AF makes them able to sell cheaper Y tickets compared to before.

This is really a matter of view. I am ready to pay more for economy when I get more room. Actually economy tickets are already ridiculously cheap and business quite expensive.
 
AF773
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:46 am

This is not very good news.
Do you think AF will do the same on all their long haul fleet?

AF773 (  crowded   crowded   crowded  773 from now on...
Next flights: AF ORY-TLN-ORY; CDG-BOD-CDG; KL CDG-AMS-ADD-AMS-CDG; AF CDG-ATL; DL ATL-MSY-ATL; AF ATL-CDG
 
AF-A319
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:00 am

Interesting move if it gets confirmed.... BA used to operate a few 777s in a 3-4-3 configuration from LGW to the Caribbean. They switched back to the traditional 3-3-3 a few years ago.

I am sure that AF runs onboard surveys, so they probably know what has been the customer's perception of their 3-4-3 COI triple sevens.

The other thing is that extra passengers will mean extra pressure on the cabin crew... FlySSC, do you know what has been the general feeling about it in the cabin crew community at AF?
 
CPH757
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:04 am

Quoting ZRH (Reply 28):
This is really a matter of view. I am ready to pay more for economy when I get more room. Actually economy tickets are already ridiculously cheap and business quite expensive.

Yeah, it's a matter of view, but you can't really cook it down to your and my oppinion. Besides illustrating my own preferences, as they are different to many others in this thread, I argue that when seen on an aggregate level, AF might have done the right thing here.

Furthermore I point out the rumors of provinding a Y+ section might be just the right thing to further accomodate passengers that actually care enough to would pay for it.

I'm a little troubled on your argument on the price setting. Just because the tickets are ridiculously low right now, doesn't imply that they can't be lower. Either if AF take a cut in their profit (which wouldn't necessarily be an optimal strategy) or by reducing their costs which is exactly what they do by supplying more seats on a flight, given that they can fill those seats.
Last flight: SAW-CPH on H9 on 02/11/09 - Next Flights: 23/12/09 CPH-AAL on QI, 30/12/09 CPH-LHR on SK, 19/01/10 CPH-CDG-
 
Viscount724
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:12 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 25):
Quoting Aircellist (Reply 21):
On YUL-CDG, AC just introduced 777 service at 10-abreast in Y.

Are you sure? AC's T7 are configured with 9 seats abreast in Y

AC 777s are 9-abreast (3-3-3). Seat charts for 777-300ER and -200LR:
http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/fleet/77W.html
http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/fleet/77L.html
 
FlySSC
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting AF-A319 (Reply 30):
FlySSC, do you know what has been the general feeling about it in the cabin crew community at AF?

We don't have that much information on the subject for the moment, and there is a lot of speculation in all the replies above ... but nothing really sure.
10 abreast seats, ok. But what kind of seat ? will they be same than the ones on the Orly-based B77W ?
Will all the B777 fleet be reconfigured ? If not, on which network will they be used ?
Same thing for the "Economy +" project.

Once again, I don't have any answer to these questions, that's why I didn't want to start a threat on that subject before having more information.

The feedback we have from the passengers on the Orly-based B77W is largely positive :
Compared to the B743 and B744, they all prefer the B77W because of the IFE and PTVs. They don't even make the difference between the 9-abreast or 10 abreast !!!

"Alizée" Class passengers regret the upper deck of the B747 for the "intimacy", but largely agree on the improvement of the seat itself (more pitch) and IFE.
 
Leskova
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:03 am

Quoting AF-A319 (Reply 30):
Interesting move if it gets confirmed.... BA used to operate a few 777s in a 3-4-3 configuration from LGW to the Caribbean. They switched back to the traditional 3-3-3 a few years ago.

They were operated by a charter airline on behalf of BA in BA livery - as soon as BA took over those operations again, the planes were reconfigured to 3-3-3.

Quoting CPH757 (Reply 31):
I'm a little troubled on your argument on the price setting. Just because the tickets are ridiculously low right now, doesn't imply that they can't be lower.

They can - but the airlines might as well simply start giving out the seats and not expect you to pay anything...

Seriously now - we currently have about 3 or 4 airlines offering Germany to US East Cost (specifically NYC) flights between €110 and €150 plus taxes: how much lower do you think airlines can go?? There's really not much room left.

The prices are ridiculously low - and, yes, they can still go from ridiculous to ludicrous... or they could simply stop selling seats... or get out of the airline business altogether...
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:13 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 34):
Seriously now - we currently have about 3 or 4 airlines offering Germany to US East Cost (specifically NYC) flights between €110 and €150 plus taxes:

You're kidding, right?
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RIX
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:10 am

Quoting TGV (Reply 4):
noisy 777... silent aibus

- Airbus being "silent" is same myth as it being "underpowered" (unless you truly believe it is powered by 4 APUs  Wink). It may be a bit less noisy, but with all those annoying noises from virtually each system, I'd prefer smooth noise background of 777...

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 33):
Compared to the B743 and B744, they all prefer the B77W because of the IFE and PTVs. They don't even make the difference between the 9-abreast or 10 abreast !!!

- yes, as 744 is wider...

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 11):
other airlines (for example BA) ... might get ideas and start adding... 9 abrest in their 787s.

I am absolutely sure it will be 9 seats in a row in BA 787s. 8 in WT+, 7 in Club World.
 
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:12 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 24):
No. Delta's 772's where configured 2-5-2 and hence had the same seat width as they have right now. 2-4-2 in a 772 would be very generous, in comparison, a lot of carriers have 2-3-2 in J class...

Thanks for clearing that up...I looked at some old pictures I took onboard on that trip and you're right, 2-5-2. I wonder why they started out with so many middle seats instead of the 3-3-3 they do now? I suppose with the 2-5-2 there's only one person per row who's two away from an aisle, versus 3-3-3, which would double the number of super-trapped pax... Also, are the seats they use now still that thick? I'm a semi-big person and have found the slimline seats, such as those used by FL on the 737s, amazingly comfortable (ignoring the legroom situation).
.
 
Leskova
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:49 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 35):
Quoting Leskova (Reply 34):
Seriously now - we currently have about 3 or 4 airlines offering Germany to US East Cost (specifically NYC) flights between €110 and €150 plus taxes:

You're kidding, right?

No, I'm not - and while those are "Early Bird Winter Specials" (I think all of them had almost the same name for the special, though they are from competing alliances... Star and Skyteam... and it's actually not 3 or 4 airlines, but more than that) that you can only book until something round mid/end October, you still can get seats for those fares, even though they've already been out for about a month now.

With fares at that level, I can understand that airlines might feel reluctant to have Y passengers sipping champagne...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
airbuster
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:06 pm

So is it just a matter of time before we see 11 abreast 747's? And let's not start about what they intend to do with the 380 then?
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Deguoren
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:12 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 33):
They don't even make the difference between the 9-abreast or 10 abreast !!!

I didn't notice it either onboard EK 773. Somebody had to tell me... And I also didn't think EK 10 abreast was more uncomfortable than AF or SQ 9 abreast. I thought ... no difference.
Will still prefer AF over many other European airlines in both - Y and J (though they have 2 - 3 - 2 in J, which is very uncommon nowadays) Service is pretty good.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 38):
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 35):
Quoting Leskova (Reply 34):
Seriously now - we currently have about 3 or 4 airlines offering Germany to US East Cost (specifically NYC) flights between �110 and �150 plus taxes:

You're kidding, right?

No, I'm not - and while those are "Early Bird Winter Specials" (I think all of them had almost the same name for the special, though they are from competing alliances... Star and Skyteam... and it's actually not 3 or 4 airlines, but more than that) that you can only book until something round mid/end October, you still can get seats for those fares, even though they've already been out for about a month now.

With fares at that level, I can understand that airlines might feel reluctant to have Y passengers sipping champagne...

Just booked on DL: MUC - JFK via CDG in March: ~ 280 Euro incl. tax ... fare w/o taxes is ~ 135 Euro

[Edited 2007-10-01 11:13:49]
 
UTA_flyinghigh
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:53 pm

Quoting RIX (Reply 36):
- Airbus being "silent" is same myth as it being "underpowered" (unless you truly believe it is powered by 4 APUs ). It may be a bit less noisy, but with all those annoying noises from virtually each system, I'd prefer smooth noise background of 777...

Being an AFKL FF I can assure you it is not a myth. The 332/343 are much quieter than their 777 counterparts. On T7's, if the noise isn't coming from those pesky GE90's, it comes from cabin ventilation (especially on CO's birds, why I don't know).

UTA  checkeredflag 
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mbj2000
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:35 pm

I've chosen already 3 times AF for the route MUC-CDG-IAH in their 777 because it was an "acceptable" experience, getting champagne made life easier in the already crowded 3-3-3 cabin. I would even pay the double price for a 2-4-2 Y+ config but downgrade to 3-4-3? hell no!

So bye-bye Air France! Sad
Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
 
longhaul67
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:48 pm

I wonder what is going to happen to the premium/network airliners that decide to downgrade their Y product with LCC carriers going on the offensive to target the long haul market. LCC carriers ONLY have cheap Y class. No way are carriers like AF/KL going to be able to compete. I believe this kind of product downgrade is just what companies like FR and the likes are hoping for.

I fly AF/KL quite regularly in Y to Asia and South America. If they decide to downgrade their current Y product without reducing prices and at the same time keep their current Y product with a price increase there sure is going to be a whole lot of BA on my credit card statements in the future.
 
RIX
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:51 pm

Quoting UTA_flyinghigh (Reply 41):
The 332/343 are much quieter than their 777 counterparts.

- I don't know what you call "much quieter" - to me, I did not even notice it, as I was never changing one to another in, say, two hours or so. So, I accept that Airbus may be somewhat more quiet, if so many insist on it so persistently (but then, is it true 340 can be hit by a bird from behind  Wink? Some insist on this too...), but, again, with anything moving / opening / turning on /... /... on Airbus making loud and annoying noise, I definitely prefer much less disturbing 777 cabin. Unfortunately, it's not only Airbus widebodies, but also these cute little adorable 'buses (320, of course  Smile - like them very much, indeed!).

And what is that terrible noise that 340 is making when taxiing? Like falling to pit every 10 seconds.
 
Aircellist
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 25):


Quoting Aircellist,reply=21:
On YUL-CDG, AC just introduced 777 service at 10-abreast in Y.

Are you sure? AC's T7 are configured with 9 seats abreast in Y



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 32):
AC 777s are 9-abreast (3-3-3). Seat charts for 777-300ER and -200LR:
http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/fleet/77W.html
http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/fl....html

Oooh, what a shame! I thought I loved planes and knew a bit about them!  Embarrassment  duck 

... Well, did I grow that fat? Came back from CDG to YUL in a 773, last week. I really did not have a "wide" feeling out of those seats; I thought I would feel the room in those seats, as compared to the 10-abreast in AC's 747, some years ago... Well, time goes by and one forgets.

In that case, I might stick with AC, then...
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
CPH757
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:58 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 34):

They can - but the airlines might as well simply start giving out the seats and not expect you to pay anything...

Seriously now - we currently have about 3 or 4 airlines offering Germany to US East Cost (specifically NYC) flights between €110 and €150 plus taxes: how much lower do you think airlines can go?? There's really not much room left.

The prices are ridiculously low - and, yes, they can still go from ridiculous to ludicrous... or they could simply stop selling seats... or get out of the airline business altogether...

I'm just saying that if AF can put more passengers into their aircrafts, they should be able to lower prices, no matter what the price was before and earn the same profit as before. The strategy is clearly to gain a cost advantage...
Last flight: SAW-CPH on H9 on 02/11/09 - Next Flights: 23/12/09 CPH-AAL on QI, 30/12/09 CPH-LHR on SK, 19/01/10 CPH-CDG-
 
FlySSC
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:37 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 8):
The total Y capacity of the 77W will be 134 pax in the first cabin, and 128 in the second, making it 262 in total.
An increase of 27 seats over the current config! I therefore need to conclude the seat pitch WILL NOT increase.

PHKLM, please, what is your source for these figures ? Because this is not what I heard today at CDG during training.

As I mentionned already, the capacity in the B77W "Y" class will be increased from 235 to 250, by the addition of 15 seats in the last rear cabin only, between the doors 4 & 5.
The inflight service remains exactely the same (for the moment) in the whole Y class (Menu, comfort kit, free alcohol drinks including Champagne).
Those seats in the last rear cabin will be assigned to passengers paying the lowest fares, groups, T.O, etc ...
I checked the flight AF346/347 in november in the "Alpha 3" system and indeed, the capacity offered is 8P / 67J / 250Y.

More details and informations should be released by Air France next October 25th.
 
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 47):
PHKLM, please, what is your source for these figures ? Because this is not what I heard today at CDG during training.

Off course FlySSC, I made this calculation based on the seat map that I get when I book a ticket on AF346 on the AF-website. Just select the dates, enter some passenger info and proceed with the booking until you get to select your seat. You can then cancel the booking without paying.
A screendump is included below ( (c) Air France):

Big version: Width: 802 Height: 569 File size: 76kb
AF 10 abreast in Y on 77W (c) Air France
 
AF-A319
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RE: Rumor: Changes In KL/AF Long-haul Y-product

Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:30 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 47):
As I mentionned already, the capacity in the B77W "Y" class will be increased from 235 to 250, by the addition of 15 seats in the last rear cabin only, between the doors 4 & 5.

Interesting... It's quite unusual to see a different configuration within the same travel class. I can only think of Finnair's MD-11 which offer nine abreast (3-4-2) in zone C but a dreadful 3-4-3 ten-abreast configuration in the back.

On a unrelated topic, I wonder where people on staff travel will end up... probably right at the back! Well, if AF keeps serving champagne, we'll be fine! :P

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