Wsp
Topic Author
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 7:43 am

Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:24 pm

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...irbus%20refined%20A350XWB%20design

Sorry no quote, the article contains information on lots of small items.
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:28 pm

In the low-speed arena, Airbus already has amassed considerable wind tunnel time. Results have shown the aircraft has better low-speed performance than thought, allowing Airbus to reduce the thrust requirement for the A350XWB engines. The thrust rating for the -800 version is now 74,000 lb. (versus 75,000 lb.), for the -900 model it is 83,000 lb. (rather than 87,000 lb.) and for the -1000 it is 92,000 lb. (down from 95,000 lb.). McConnell says brake performance has also been improved. Rolls-Royce, for now, remains the sole engine supplier with the TrentXWB.

Interesting and significant thrust reductions, especially for the -900 and -1000 models.

Looks like it will allow RR to design a slightly smaller, more efficient engine, which will be consuming less than anticipated.

Good news for the XWB and its already huge CASM improvements over the 777.

[Edited 2007-10-01 09:47:19]
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13469
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:26 pm

Some additional news in this week's electronic FI (article not online yet). Images below (c) FI.

The revised profile now looks like this:
Big version: Width: 831 Height: 268 File size: 36kb
Revised A350 profile


The much-maligned A380 nose looks much better in this rendition than the old FI "cut-away" diagram:
Big version: Width: 545 Height: 474 File size: 38kb
A350 nose job!


And here are the latest model specs:
Big version: Width: 835 Height: 315 File size: 59kb
A350 Specs
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
columba
Posts: 5045
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:55 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 2):
The revised profile now looks like this:

On this picture the nose design looks even older than the one of the A300, maybe it looks better in reality or in a 3d computer animation
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
BlueSky1976
Posts: 1605
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:18 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:06 pm

So the seating specs are now based on two-class arrangement? If that's the case, then the whole family will be more direct 787 competition than everyone originally thought... Interesting, least to say...
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
mbj2000
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:15 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:39 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 2):

I like the new renditions, she looks gratious from the side and mean from the front!  Smile
Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
 
AF2323
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:00 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:09 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 3):
On this picture the nose design looks even older than the one of the A300, maybe it looks better in reality or in a 3d computer animation

I think we should wait for Airbus's renderings to see what the A350 will really looks like... I hope not like FI pictured it...
 
babybus
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:07 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:41 pm

A spectacular and elegant looking airliner. I can't wait to fly her and she still isn't even off the drawing board yet.

Are Airbus being cheeky making it look like the 787?
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:43 pm

Any idea when they will freeze the design? Must not be to long anymore I guess.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4100
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:52 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 8):
Any idea when they will freeze the design? Must not be to long anymore I guess.

October 2008 is the design freeze milestone.
 
MCIGuy
Posts: 1445
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:15 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:59 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 1):
and its already huge CASM improvements over the 777.

Yet to be seen , it's still a paper airplane.
As for appearance, the new profile looks like a giant A320 to me, not necessarily a bad thing.  Smile
Airliners.net Moderator Team
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13469
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:02 pm

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 4):
So the seating specs are now based on two-class arrangement? If that's the case, then the whole family will be more direct 787 competition than everyone originally thought... Interesting, least to say...

I don't know if that table is Airbus's or Flight's. It's interesting that only one item is marked as having come from Airbus, so I suspect this is Flight's data.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:05 pm

Keep in mind that these are not Airbus images, rather Flight International Images. I dont thing the airbus ones will be too far off though.
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:09 pm

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 10):
Yet to be seen , it's still a paper airplane

Oh come on. There really is NO need to doubt the obvious.

Just as no sane person will question the fact the 787 will offer significant CASM improvements over the 767 and A330 as it is a far more modern design, it is only common sense to accept the A350 will be far more efficient than any 777 version. By how much, that remains to be seen, but given the information on the lower thrust requirements of the A350-900 and -1000 compared to how much thrust the 77W needs to do the same missions and the fact Airbus has now adjusted those requirements downwards, it really is obvious this plane will burn a lot less fuel than the 777 does.

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 10):
As for appearance, the new profile looks like a giant A320 to me, not necessarily a bad thing.

The nose looks a bit more pointier though and has the A380 style cockpit windows in it, so it seems like Airbus is continuing the tradition to give family members the same 'face' or at least the same 'eyes'

Anyway, I prefer this look over the nose of the 787 (copied from the Caravelle, Comet series, with some Emb profile thrown in), but then I don't think looks really matter in this case.

[Edited 2007-10-01 14:16:14]
 
boeing767-300
Posts: 621
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 11:23 pm

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:24 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 13):
Oh come on. There really is NO need to doubt the obvious.

Even though this is just yet another adjustment of figures there is no doubt that the A350 will be should be better than variants of the 777.

Hell it ought to be seeing it will be 18 years newer. The main issue here is has Airbus missed the bus targeting the 777 and also with such a long lead in time till introduction (2013) what happens if Boeing promises a significantly superior Y3 announced around 2010-11 for EIS 2016.

That would likely leave the A350-1000 'becalmed' and the vast 77W operators lining up for large numbers of Y3.

I think Boeing are waiting eargerly for design freeze on A350 and then watch for Y3 2010.........
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:44 pm

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 14):
I think Boeing are waiting eargerly for design freeze on A350.

I think right now Boeing is eagerly waiting their next shipment of fasteners actually.


Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 14):
watch for Y3 2010

Shouldn't their next project in the time frame you mention be Y1 (737 replacement)?

I think airlines worldwide are more eagerly waiting something totally new in the A320/737 category, than anything else from Boeing right now.

In that case, Y3 is further out in time than you think and it remains to be seen whether Boeing will ever launch such a plane. Don't forget that if Boeing bites the bullet and redesigns the 787-10 so it does what it is supposed to do and given the fact there clearly isn't a huge market for 747-8i or bigger if we are to believe the Airbus bashers, the market for a Y3 which isn't interfering with the 787 is getting pretty small to rush all resources into it.

On the other hand, Y3 might still be needed from a Boeing perspective, because otherwise their product range tops off with the 787-10 and thus falls short of spanning the entire spectrum.

Interesting dilemma indeed.

There was a discussion about this some time ago and the most likely conclusion is that the 787-10 will probably be Boeing's only real answer to the A350 for a very long time and Airbus can pretty much "guestimate" how such a plane will perform.

The product line up of Boeing in mid next decade will be: Y1/787/777/748 and NOT 737/787/Y3, I think that is pretty obvious already.

[Edited 2007-10-01 14:50:40]
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23204
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:03 pm

Good things airlines don't buy on aesthetics. Between the A380 and the new A350, Airbus is suffering from the "Chris Bangle effect".  vomit 

VN just signed for 10 of them this morning (plus another bunch of 787s), so that is another endorsement of the A350 as a 772/A333 replacement.

And I still think the 787HGW is going to be Boeing's choice going forward.
 
kbdude
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:03 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:19 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 15):
On the other hand, Y3 might still be needed from a Boeing perspective, because otherwise their product range tops off with the 787-10 and thus falls short of spanning the entire spectrum.

Well.... with that rationale.....from an Airbus perpsective, the Airbus product range will bottom out at the A358XWB.

The A330 sales will be very limited mid-next decade.
The A320 sales will be on a serious decline come Boeing Y1 launch in mid 2010 & EIS by mid 2015.



Airbus product line up mid next decade is.... A320/A350/A380?
 
WINGS
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 1:36 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:25 pm

Quoting Kbdude (Reply 17):
Airbus product line up mid next decade is.... A320/A350/A380?

I expect it to be

A32X ( possibly an enhanced version)
A332F
A332 MRTT
A333F
A350
A380

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
FlyingAY
Posts: 408
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:26 pm

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:25 pm

Quoting Kbdude (Reply 17):
The A320 sales will be on a serious decline come Boeing Y1 launch in mid 2010 & EIS by mid 2015.

If Y1 will EIS 2015, I will be very surprised. Both A&B are still waiting for the engines for their narrowbodies, and I actually expect both manufacturers to come up with a new generation narrowbody aircraft at about the same time. Currently both 737 and A320 are selling like hot cakes, so there's really no need to spend billions of dollars to develop a new model.

What comes to the topic of this thread, interesting article.

And what comes to the looks of that thing, it's just about the same as every widebody twin there's - a tube with two engines hanging from its wings. I really fail to find the beauty or ugliness of this thing when compared to a A330/777/787...
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:31 pm

Quoting Kbdude (Reply 17):
Airbus product line up mid next decade is.... A320/A350/A380?

I think it will be

A320X(*)/A350/A380,

with a NSR on the drawing board to replace the A320 and leapfrog Boeing's Y1 in much the same way -albeit more plausible- as so many on this site hope the much more doubtful Y3 to do to the A350.

(*): or A320NG or A320E or whatever you want to call a significantly improved A320 with the new generation engines under its wing, something which is possible for the A320, contrary to the 737 and which forms the main case for the need of a clean sheet design from Boeing.

[Edited 2007-10-01 15:33:20]
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 3951
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:33 pm

I don't really get the persistence of the concept that the 350 can stretch further than the 787...they are both, basically, the same diameter. Since they're using the same materials, what is preventing the 787 from being just as big as the 350?
What the...?
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 21):
I don't really get the persistence of the concept that the 350 can stretch further than the 787...they are both, basically, the same diameter. Since they're using the same materials, what is preventing the 787 from being just as big as the 350?

The A350 is actually a tad wider, but you are right, the 787 could in theory be stretched to match the capacity of any A350 model. There os no problem with that, the problem is with the performance (payload/range) of such a plane.

The 787 has a far smaller wing, has less powerful engines and stands on a thinner undercarriage, and for all those reasons, the simple stretch 787-10 as presented by Boeing to potential customers doesn't stand a change against the A350-900 and A350-1000, hence the numerous public demands from customers to Boeing to actually redesign the 787-10.

Obviously, what is the advantage of the A350 at the high end of the spectrum, is its disadvantage at the low end in the -800 model, which will likely be the poorest selling model of all and have the hardest time competing against the 787 because it is somewhat overbuilt and overwinged.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23204
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:41 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 21):
Since they're using the same materials, what is preventing the 787 from being just as big as the 350?

Airbus Aficionado blinders.  Smile

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 20):

I think it will be A320X(*)/A350/A380, with a NSR on the drawing board to replace the A320 and leapfrog Boeing's Y1 in much the same way -albeit more plausible- as so many on this site hope the much more doubtful Y3 to do to the A350.

So Boeing can't make a better plane than Airbus, but Airbus can always make a better plane then Boeing (since the A350 is better then the 787 and now the A320RS will be better then the 737RS, even though neither has even hypothetical specs at this time).

It is opinions like this that contribute to so much of the strife on this forum...  Sad
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:49 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
So Boeing can't make a better plane than Airbus, but Airbus can always make a better plane then Boeing

You got me wrong there.

Both CAN make better planes than the other, the question here is WILL they make it at all?

My point is that although a Y3 COULD indeed leapfrog the A350 like some here have suggested as the greatest risk to the A350, Boeing will not soon be in a position to launch it, because they will be using all their resources on the Y1 in the time frame which is suggested for the launch of Y3 as reaction to the A350 (provided they should think Y3 is needed in the light of a likely 787-10 launch)

On the other hand it is a factual given Airbus WILL launch their NSR and will likely do so only AFTER Boeing has committed to the Y1.

Same scenario applied to both manufacturers, just weighing in the likeliness of it, gives the most likely idea of the
product line up of Boeing mid next decade: Y1/787/777/748
product line up of Airbus mid-next decade: A320NG/A350/A380 with NSR just around the corner.

[Edited 2007-10-01 15:54:18]
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13469
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:52 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 15):
Interesting dilemma indeed.

It might even be a bit of a pickle!  wink 
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
bkircher
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:23 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:38 am

The A350 has to be one of the ugliest airplanes that I have ever seen. I still think the A350 is pointless to even make, Boeing has already won that class of aircraft with the 787 series.
 
Aircellist
Posts: 1257
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:56 am

The nose, well... They have done as Boeing did with the 787: nice prospective drawing, but the final product is not as convincing...

What looks interesting to me is the tail profile: up to now, Airbuses had a flat rear fuselage top, whereas, since the 767, Boeings had a sloping one, with a lower tail cone, in reference to the fuselage. Airbus has gone the Boeing way for this one.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 22):
The 787 has a far smaller wing, has less powerful engines and stands on a thinner undercarriage, and for all those reasons, the simple stretch 787-10 as presented by Boeing to potential customers doesn't stand a change against the A350-900 and A350-1000, hence the numerous public demands from customers to Boeing to actually redesign the 787-10.

This too looks like going Boeing's way: if I remember well, the 767 was built with a much larger wing than the A300 and A310, and it is that huge wing that allowed the 767 not only to grow quite a bit and also to stretch its legs, much farther than any A300 or A310 could go, with their closely tailored wings.
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23204
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 24):
You got me wrong there.

Got it.

And yes, I can agree that come mid-decade Boeing will have the 777 and 748, but they'll still be delivering units sold through the last years of this decade and the first half of the next as they bridge to the new model, whatever it might be.
 
texfly101
Posts: 343
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:42 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:21 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 24):
Boeing will not soon be in a position to launch it, because they will be using all their resources on the Y1 in the time frame which is suggested for the launch of Y3 as reaction to the A350

Don't bet on it. You might be surprised to see what they are actually doing. There's a tremendous amount of hiring going on right now in selected programs. Not many on this forum are seeing it quite like Boeing is seeing the future. Of course, not many airplanes get launched by the A-Net forum either  Silly
 
astuteman
Posts: 6346
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:43 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 2):
Some additional news in this week's electronic FI (article not online yet).

Still not online yet, but some interesting snippets........

"The A350's double lobe cabin cross-section finalised at aroiund 5.97m (235 in)...."

Isn't that about 1 in wider than the size communicated at launch last year?

"McConnel says the switch to carbon frames is "relatively weight neutral" as any savings from lighter materials are offset by the need to add metallic strips... (to provide the electrical network)..... The move addresses concerns about corrosion risk..

Interesting that A/B don't think the CF frames save any weight...

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 21):
Since they're using the same materials, what is preventing the 787 from being just as big as the 350?

Airbus Aficionado blinders.

 checkmark   Smile

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...s-a350-xwb-high-speed-testing.html

This article IS linked....

Regards
 
User avatar
autothrust
Posts: 1459
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:54 pm

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:57 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
Good things airlines don't buy on aesthetics. Between the A380 and the new A350, Airbus is suffering from the "Chris Bangle effect". vomit

Couldn't agree more, this nose is a disaster.

If aesthetics would count more i would fire McConnel and all the design engineers.

I doubt any VIP's will ever buy such a ugly plane, guess they will take more attention at the design then fuel efficiency. Just can't believe the other design did affect fuel efficiency so much. After all Boeing could make the 787 nose fuel efficient and still beautiful.

Have now only a tiny hope, Airbus will make it a little prettier until design freeze.

[Edited 2007-10-01 19:59:42]
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
hawkercamm
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:15 pm

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:19 am

I don't think too much should be taken from these flightglobal "schematic" drawings. We should wait until we see pictures with the airbus stamp on
 
kbdude
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:03 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:59 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 24):
product line up of Boeing mid next decade: Y1/787/777/748

You could say then...

product line up of Boeing mid next decade: Y1/787/777/748.....with Y3 just around the corner.

To me... the huge problem is......Y1 "clean-sheet design" should beat handily the A320NG in sales/performance. That would badly hurt the one cash cow Airbus has. Although the large twin WB market is most lucrative...the risk is that by mid next decade Airbus would not have a competitive product from 150-250 passenger range.


Pls....lets not get into the argument of "just hang the new NB engines on a tweaked A320" and its competitve/comparable to Y1. Airbus has been down that road before......the A350v1............
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 4970
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 13):
Just as no sane person will question the fact the 787 will offer significant CASM improvements over the 767 and A330 as it is a far more modern design,

Being "more modern" is no guarantee of being better. Windows Vista is "more modern" than Windows XP, but I have yet to encounter any favorable comments for Vista.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 21):
Since they're using the same materials, what is preventing the 787 from being just as big as the 350?

Nothing; but the 787, as others have mentioned, is designed with a smaller wing and lower MTOW. The real question is whether Boeing will increase the MTOW and wing, which will mean no Y3, or wait to build Y3. My guess is the latter.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
User avatar
autothrust
Posts: 1459
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:54 pm

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:54 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 34):
The real question is whether Boeing will increase the MTOW and wing, which will mean no Y3, or wait to build Y3. My guess is the latter.

I don't believe Boeing will build Y3 now. Because the huge backlog on the 787 and remaining issues, the development on the 748 and i guess Y1 is at the moment more important then Y3.

The 787 can pretty match or leapfrog with new wing and a strech the A350-1000. This solution can be achieved with a "small" investment compared to Y3. Not to talk that Boeing would need to fund another 10 billions even the 787 hasn't flown yet.  no 
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
Carls
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:22 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:18 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 15):
Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 14):
I think Boeing are waiting eargerly for design freeze on A350.

I think right now Boeing is eagerly waiting their next shipment of fasteners actually.

 checkmark   duck   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:29 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
VN just signed for 10 of them this morning (plus another bunch of 787s), so that is another endorsement of the A350 as a 772/A333 replacement.

Well yes, considering by the time they get them their B777s and A330s will be worn out.

 cheeky   cheeky 

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
So Boeing can't make a better plane than Airbus, but Airbus can always make a better plane then Boeing (since the A350 is better then the 787 and now the A320RS will be better then the 737RS, even though neither has even hypothetical specs at this time).

It is opinions like this that contribute to so much of the strife on this forum...

See, to be an airbus believer you have to be like the guy in Hibbing Minnesota who works in a dry cleaners and says "Well, when I go on safari to Africa, the water buffalo I shoot will be much bigger than yours, no doubt about it!"

Seven years later, there's no water buffalo, it ain't Africa and he's still working at the dry cleaners.


 laughing   laughing   laughing   laughing 
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 5488
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:19 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 24):
On the other hand it is a factual given Airbus WILL launch their NSR and will likely do so only AFTER Boeing has committed to the Y1.

I really question how much this will matter. Will a year or two difference in launch between the two really make a difference in their performance? I agree that Airbus has an edge in that they can - with little investment - put out a A320 upgrade that could continue to garner orders against a theoretical Y1, but otherwise, it may very well be a draw (again).

Quoting Bkircher (Reply 26):
The A350 has to be one of the ugliest airplanes that I have ever seen. I still think the A350 is pointless to even make, Boeing has already won that class of aircraft with the 787 series.

Oh, for the love of...Oh, never mind....sigh.

Quoting Kbdude (Reply 33):
product line up of Boeing mid next decade: Y1/787/777/748.....with Y3 just around the corner.

Exactly. You can't have it both ways.

Quoting Kbdude (Reply 33):
To me... the huge problem is......Y1 "clean-sheet design" should beat handily the A320NG in sales/performance. That would badly hurt the one cash cow Airbus has. Although the large twin WB market is most lucrative...the risk is that by mid next decade Airbus would not have a competitive product from 150-250 passenger range.

I tend to disagree. An A320NG may very well be a hot seller, particularly when you consider that they would be able to price it lower than a Y1 due to the reduced development costs. This might be very attractive to the myriad of LCC's and developing ULCC's that aren't interested in the latest and greatest, just the cheapest (price, not quality).

Quoting Kbdude (Reply 33):
Pls....lets not get into the argument of "just hang the new NB engines on a tweaked A320" and its competitve/comparable to Y1. Airbus has been down that road before......the A350v1............

Apples and oranges. Definitely.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 34):
Being "more modern" is no guarantee of being better. Windows Vista is "more modern" than Windows XP, but I have yet to encounter any favorable comments for Vista.

I really have to agree with the notion that it is a given that the modern airliners debuting (380/787/350) will have greatly improved economics over the older competition. I'm not sure how one could disagree with this specific concept (versus a generalization).

-Dave
-Dave
 
astuteman
Posts: 6346
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:42 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 38):
I really have to agree with the notion that it is a given that the modern airliners debuting (380/787/350) will have greatly improved economics over the older competition

With:-
more efficient engines
somewhat lighter structures,
more modern systems
more modern wings providing greater span, better lift, and significantly better L/D (easily demonstrated, but widely ignored on A-net)

it's surprising that there are people that don't agree.

FWIW I believe the last point to be one of the most significant, but overlooked characteristics of all three aircraft families that you mentioned.....
Funny things, wings.
Who'd think they have any bearing on aircraft efficiency?  Smile

Regards
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:17 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 21):
I don't really get the persistence of the concept that the 350 can stretch further than the 787...they are both, basically, the same diameter. Since they're using the same materials, what is preventing the 787 from being just as big as the 350?



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 22):
The 787 has a far smaller wing, has less powerful engines and stands on a thinner undercarriage, and for all those reasons, the simple stretch 787-10 as presented by Boeing to potential customers doesn't stand a change against the A350-900 and A350-1000, hence the numerous public demands from customers to Boeing to actually redesign the 787-10.



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 39):
FWIW I believe the last point to be one of the most significant, but overlooked characteristics of all three aircraft families that you mentioned.....
Funny things, wings.
Who'd think they have any bearing on aircraft efficiency?

It has been said before, but every time the 350 characteristics come up, the wings are largely ignored - in this thread obviously with the exceptions above.

The thread: A380 And 748i Drag Comparisons (by Astuteman Feb 23 2007 in Tech Ops)
A380 And 748i Drag Comparisons
does a great job in explaining why, even with all that weight (or perhaps even because of some of it), the 380 is competitive and arguably the winner. I suspect that a 787/350 comparison will show similar differences, especially now that the lift from those huge wings is permitting a decrease in thrust for takeoff.

It would still be interesting to know if the cruise thrust levels for the 350 are also reduced, other than the amounts associated with lower weights - the dreaded virtuous circle again. As Astuteman has argued in a number of threads, concentration on the fuselage, drags (pun intended) attention away from the new horizons thrown up by lighter, even though larger, wing structures.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6346
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:42 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 40):
concentration on the fuselage, drags (pun intended) attention away from the new horizons thrown up by lighter, even though larger, wing structures.

 checkmark 

Just check out the wings on the 789 - 62m span and aspect ration of 10.4:1
Lots of span = high L/D  Smile
But as you say, the bigger wing is feasible within tight weight constraints due to new materials and construction techniques.
I'd argue that this has a greater impact on the 789's range/payload/fuel burn performance than the CFRP fuselage barrels.

Regards
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23204
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:52 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 38):
I tend to disagree. An A320NG may very well be a hot seller, particularly when you consider that they would be able to price it lower than a Y1 due to the reduced development costs. This might be very attractive to the myriad of LCC's and developing ULCC's that aren't interested in the latest and greatest, just the cheapest (price, not quality).

Low up-front "capital acquisition costs" will certainly be appealing to LCCs and ULCCs, but you still need to make a profit with those planes. Airlines like WN and FR, with large fleets of brand-new Y1s purchased at favorable prices, are going to remain very strong competitors.
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 4970
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:41 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 38):
I really have to agree with the notion that it is a given that the modern airliners debuting (380/787/350) will have greatly improved economics over the older competition. I'm not sure how one could disagree with this specific concept (versus a generalization).

I do in fact agree that the new planes are certainly going to be better; my only point was that just because it is "newer" or "more modern" that it is automatically better. They will be better because of improved material, improved technology, and better utilization of the same, but there is no guarantee that just because something is newer that it will be better.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 3951
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:08 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 43):

Hallelujah...a simple point but so hard to make. Thank you.
What the...?
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 4970
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:54 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 44):
Hallelujah...a simple point but so hard to make. Thank you.

You're welcome. Big grin
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23204
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:14 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 4):
So the seating specs are now based on two-class arrangement? If that's the case, then the whole family will be more direct 787 competition than everyone originally thought... Interesting, least to say...



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 11):
I don't know if that table is Airbus's or Flight's. It's interesting that only one item is marked as having come from Airbus, so I suspect this is Flight's data.

These new two-class seating specs are almost identical to the three-class seating specs Airbus had for each model, so either the A350's suddenly shorter or FI has made a mistake.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 15):
Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 14):
watch for Y3 2010

Shouldn't their next project in the time frame you mention be Y1 (737 replacement)?

No. Boeing doesn't want to build Y1 and Airbus doesn't want to build A320NG. It's the customers that want those products but, as long as both Airbus and Boeing don't blink, they're both happier with their current products than with new ones. Until engine technology catches up enough to make a really significant difference over existing economics, neither one will do anything at all. The 737NG and A320 are very very good airplanes...economically obsoleting them is much harder than it seems like most people here imagine.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 38):
I agree that Airbus has an edge in that they can - with little investment - put out a A320 upgrade that could continue to garner orders against a theoretical Y1, but otherwise, it may very well be a draw (again).

Boeing has already said they want a 20% improvement over the 737NG to launch its replacement...there is nothing that Airbus can do to an A320 to get a 20% improvement.

Tom.
 
jdevora
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:41 am

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:58 am

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 47):



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 47):
Boeing has already said they want a 20% improvement over the 737NG to launch its replacement...there is nothing that Airbus can do to an A320 to get a 20% improvement.

Yep, unless you change 737NG by "current planes", that is John Leahy's theory at least
Pictures: Airbus aims to thwart Boeing’s narrowbody plans with upgraded 'A320 Enhanced

Quote:

Leahy believes the business case for a new-generation single-aisle aircraft would not be viable unless it offered at least a 10% improvement in fuel burn. “But if today’s A320 improves by 4-5% we’ve just moved the goal posts,” he says. “Who’s going to roll over a fleet to a new generation aircraft for 5% better than an A320 today? Especially if another 10% improvement might be coming in the second half of the next decade based on new engine technology,” says Leahy.

Cheers
JD
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 5488
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Airbus Refined A350XWB Design

Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:09 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):
Low up-front "capital acquisition costs" will certainly be appealing to LCCs and ULCCs, but you still need to make a profit with those planes. Airlines like WN and FR, with large fleets of brand-new Y1s purchased at favorable prices, are going to remain very strong competitors.

While I agree in general, I think that my thought is that this buys Airbus time - not substitutes for a replacement. For a period of years in the face of a Y1, the A320NG could still do quite well, as the time from offering the Y1 for sale to the time that there are significant fleets of them out there is 8-10 years. During much of that period, an A320NG could likely score a sizable (though minority) portion of the orders. Even if this buys them five extra years (doubtful they'd wait that long), that's still a good chunk of time.

And, as mentioned above, if the A320NG is bested by say 10% in operating costs by a Y1, this could be overcome to a small degree by more aggressive pricing, some commonality with existing large fleets of A320's, and availability.

I am open to correction though.

-Dave
-Dave