masseybrown
Posts: 4414
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19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:52 am

In another thread, it was noted that one B1900 operator seems to succeed another on subsidized routes in the US. In the 19-pax class, there doesn't seem to be a logical replacement. The Chinese (Harbin Aircraft), however, are building the Y12F, which they call a regional 19-pax airliner, among other missions. While it will probably be really cheap, it will also be unpressurized and slow - about 245 knots.

Will pax, spoiled by the comparative luxury of B1900's, be willing to go back to almost DC-3 standards of low, slow, and chewing gum? Is the Y12F a viable first world airliner?
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:25 am

I think it would depend on the situation, it could certainly become a competitor to the Czech built Lets and even the resurrected DHC 6-400 for island hops in the Caribbean or small archipelagos frequented by tourists where the flights are short and stay low so the pressurisation would not be so much of an issue. Trouble is, there aren't many applicable situations that I can think of in the US for it, and I'm not really sure if that's the market which it's aimed at anyway.


Dan Smile
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
bok269
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:34 am

Highly unlikely. The Be1900s are still peforming their mission. When time comes to find a replacement a better alternative will become availible. No airline is going to buy an unpressurized airliner (save for Cape Air with the C402 and some Alaskan operators) for Part 121 ops here in the US, especially given the high altitude of many EAS destinations. Speed is also a factor, and given the age of the Y-12, efficiency is probably sub-par. All of that aside, the chance of seeing a Chinese airliner in the US is slim.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
Orion737
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:40 am

I prefer the Jetstream31 or Dornier228. Unlike the Be1900s, they are more comfortable and offer facility for cabin service and a toilet.
 
Spoke2Spoke
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:52 am

There is the issue of passenger comfort, which may deter operators and passengers alike. Un-pressurized may be a big deterrent.

The speed issue is another, as congested airports are becoming more wary of slower aircraft causing bottlenecks on approach. The Dash-8, according to this website, cruises at 237 knots, which is slower than this Y12F. So it may not be that slow.
...carelessness and overconfidence are usually far more dangerous than deliberately accepted risks. - Wilbur Wright
 
DAYflyer
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Thread starter):
spoiled by the comparative luxury of B1900's,

Wow, could I have fun with that statement......A B1900 certainly does not offer any luxury for them to compare it to.
One Nation Under God
 
A342
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:36 am

Maybe a stretched PC-12 could do the job.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
rfields5421
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:01 am

I seriously doubt anything will replace the B1900D in the US on the EAS routes - though some routes have gone to C208 aircraft recently.

Frankly I think the very limite profit potential even with financial support will result in most EAS cities losing all air service over the next decade or two.

Nothing will replace the B1900 because the routes will dry up.
 
sh0rtybr0wn
Posts: 373
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:17 am

Beechcraft 1900 is not a bad plane. Very fun to fly in; very torque-y twin turboprop power. But theres not much legroom. I would think an unpressurized plane would be an inferior ride.
 
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JBo
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:29 am

I think the technology is available to build a next-generation 19-seater with more room and amenities without adding much weight, and thus being more efficitent ... which might keep the small-city markets like EAS alive.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:29 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 5):

Wow, could I have fun with that statement......A B1900 certainly does not offer any luxury for them to compare it to.

It offers the luxury of not having to drive ___ hours to the "big" airport. That is worth its weight in gold. Twin engines and pressurization is a nice touch too.

Quoting A342 (Reply 6):
Maybe a stretched PC-12 could do the job.

No need to stretch it. Since the single engine planes are prohibited from going larger than 9 pax, the PC-12 is already right-sized.
 
masseybrown
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:31 am

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 2):
given the age of the Y-12, efficiency is probably sub-par.

Harbin's Y12F, despite the name, is not a newer version of the Y-12; it's a completely new airplane due to fly next year. A model is shown here: http://www.avbuyer.com.cn/e/2007/15381.html
 
connies4ever
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:55 am

Quoting Spoke2Spoke (Reply 4):
The speed issue is another, as congested airports are becoming more wary of slower aircraft causing bottlenecks on approach. The Dash-8, according to this website, cruises at 237 knots, which is slower than this Y12F. So it may not be that slow.

Believe the 237 kts is for the -100. The -200 (or Q200 if you prefer) is more like 280 kts.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
rikkus67
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:37 am

One of the most intriguing regional aircraft designs of the last few years is slightly smaller than 19 seats. The National Aeronautics Laboratory in India is producing a 14 seat rear-engined pressurized regional aircraft. The model is called "SARAS", and there are a couple of prototypes flying now. Power comes from 2 P&W Canada PT6A's, with the intention of meeting all FAR requirements in the USA. I don't think it would be too much engineering to add one more row to make it a 19 seater...

http://www.nal.res.in
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
COERJ145
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:52 am

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 3):
I prefer the Jetstream31 or Dornier228. Unlike the Be1900s, they are more comfortable and offer facility for cabin service and a toilet.

The Be1900s have can be equiped with lavs, in the place of a seat(bringing the capacity to 18). Air Canada does this as they run the 1900s on some long routes. AFAIK, the Jetstream J31s don't have lavs or galleys.
 
srbmod
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:58 am

Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 13):
"SARAS"



Reminds me of the Embraer CBA-123 Vector (I wonder if they'd ever revisit the concept?):

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Photo © Bill Blanchard - AirTeamImages
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Photo © Pedro Aragão



Here's an off-the wall suggestion, how about Piaggio building a 19 pax a/c based on the P-180 Avanti?
 
SpencerII
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:23 am

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 2):
No airline is going to buy an unpressurized airliner (save for Cape Air with the C402 and some Alaskan operators) for Part 121 ops here in the US, especially given the high altitude of many EAS destinations. Speed is also a factor, and given the age of the Y-12, efficiency is probably sub-par. All of that aside, the chance of seeing a Chinese airliner in the US is slim.

I would disagree with you there about NO ariline buying a non pressurized cabin airliner. Remember about 10 years ago there were unpressurized craft in many of the fleets of what is considered MAJOR REGIONALS now.
The EMB110 Bandierante was not pressurized. The SHORTS (flying milk cartons) were not pressurized,
The Dornier 228 was not, The Beech c99 was not. Also, SALMON air out in IDAHO & UTAH was flying EAS services just last year with Navajos. NewMexico airlines is flying EAS services with non pressurized Caravans.
 
Tornado82
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:19 am

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 15):


Here's an off-the wall suggestion, how about Piaggio building a 19 pax a/c based on the P-180 Avanti?

Actually that's not off-the-wall at all. The 1900 was pretty much an evolution of the King Air line. The P-180 is kind of like a 21st century King Air (sorry to the King Air fans out there, I like 'em too!) so I could see it as quite feasible.
 
Spoke2Spoke
Posts: 170
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:42 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 11):
A model is shown here: http://www.avbuyer.com.cn/e/2007/153....html

The Y12F kinda looks the like offspring of a Shorts 360 and a Dornier 328.
...carelessness and overconfidence are usually far more dangerous than deliberately accepted risks. - Wilbur Wright
 
dw747400
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:49 am

Quoting Spencerii (Reply 16):
Also, SALMON air out in IDAHO & UTAH was flying EAS services just last year with Navajos. NewMexico airlines is flying EAS services with non pressurized Caravans.

Are they operating under Part 121 or Part 135 Commuter?
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:57 am

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 3):
more comfortable



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 3):
Jetstream31

The end is surely upon us if I am actually seeing those words together. Having riden a few legs in the back of a J31/32, I found them to be anything but.

Quoting Dw747400 (Reply 19):
Are they operating under Part 121 or Part 135 Commuter?

I am reasonable certain that Part 121 operators cannot use single engine aircraft. They also cannot use single pilot operations. That is why Beech 1900 FOs have jobs.
Proud OOTSK member
 
T prop
Posts: 910
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:23 am

Quoting Dw747400 (Reply 19):
Quoting Spencerii (Reply 16):
Also, SALMON air out in IDAHO & UTAH was flying EAS services just last year with Navajos. NewMexico airlines is flying EAS services with non pressurized Caravans.

Are they operating under Part 121 or Part 135 Commuter?

Navajos and Caravans can't be operated under part 121 rules, those aircraft are not equipped and can not meet performance requirements to do so. 19 seaters are no longer economical to operate under 121 rules unless you have EAS routes.
 
tiago701
Posts: 168
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:52 am

Could this be an option?

www.skylander-aircraft.net
 
HT
Posts: 5857
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:08 am

EMB-120 ? Or a potential follow-up of this a/c ?
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
mtnwest1979
Posts: 1780
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:23 am

RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:23 pm

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 20):
They also cannot use single pilot operations. That is why Beech 1900 FOs have jobs.

Just fyi, Salmon Air operated the flights to Vernal, Moab, and SLC,UT with two pilots in their Navajos.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1030
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:44 pm

Speed and comfort are not a big item on a 19 passenger turboprop. They run short hops, so what is an extra ten minutes. It is not a make or break item. It may sure beat driving or waiting in a long check in and security line.  old 
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
icna05e
Posts: 130
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:11 pm

RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:45 pm

Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 13):
I don't think it would be too much engineering to add one more row to make it a 19 seater...

I would think there is slightly more than one row to be added to go from 14 to 19 seats. This is not a B737 nor an RJ85!
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4414
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:46 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 5):
Wow, could I have fun with that statement......A B1900 certainly does not offer any luxury for them to compare it to.

You can't have fun with it - I already did.  Wink Nevertheless, the B1900 offers speed and pressurization, which really are luxuries in this class of aircraft.

The Indian SARAS (thanks, Rikkus) does look like a contender, if they can price it right.
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:00 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 10):
No need to stretch it. Since the single engine planes are prohibited from going larger than 9 pax, the PC-12 is already right-sized.

Well, the Grand Caravan can seat 11 with FAR 23 regulations and 14 without.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
hangarrat
Posts: 428
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:24 pm

RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:26 am

Quoting Tiago701 (Reply 22):
Could this be an option?

www.skylander-aircraft.net

Is this a descendant of the Britten-Norman Islander and Trislander?

There was a company called Wings Airways back in the 80s that offered a commuter service from PHL to BBX, PNE and DOV with a Trislander.

Don't know if that was a subsidized service. I'm guessing it was a convenience service for the poor souls in Mongomery County who had a 2 hour drive to PHL before about 1993 when I-476 opened.


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Spell check is a false dog
 
boacvc10
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:31 pm

RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:25 am

Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 13):
One of the most intriguing regional aircraft designs

The video is really worth looking, and I am sure the aircraft will impress a.netters !

BOACVC10
Up, up and Away!
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting HT (Reply 23):
EMB-120 ? Or a potential follow-up of this a/c ?

It's technically still in production, so who knows? Perhaps Embraer could revisit the stretch of the EMB-121 that was the original EMB-120 concept known as the Araguia, which was a 25 seater. The previously mentioned Embraer CBA-123 Vector would probably be a good choice to dust off of the shelves and perhaps they could develop a new version of the EMB-110.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5550
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:12 am

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 31):
Perhaps Embraer could revisit the stretch of the EMB-121 that was the original EMB-120 concept known as the Araguia, which was a 25 seater.

That would have to be a 25 seater with 6 seats removed.

The 19 seat limit is not aircraft size. It is due to requirements for the destination airport in certain facilities and a certain level of firefighting and rescue staff and capablity.

Your cannot replace a 19 seat aircraft with a larger one unless the airports are willing to upgrade infrastructure, equipment, staff and training.
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:32 am

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 32):
That would have to be a 25 seater with 6 seats removed.

Or you could make the stretch shorter than originally proposed. The EMB-121 derivative EMB-120 never even got off of the drawing board, as Embraer went with a brand new design instead of using what they already had. Take out a few frames from the Araguia design, bingo, bango, bongo, 19 seater.
 
kingcavalier
Posts: 381
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:22 pm

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 14):
the Jetstream J31s don't have lavs or galleys

American Eagle's J31 (and later J32) did have lavs. It was in the rear as you came up the steps. It was part of the entrance and could only be used once the stairs were pulled closed. The door to the lav closed off the rest of the cabin, but there was still a relatively large "crack" around the lav door. There were many times that we opened the door and someone was sitting on the lav.

Servicing the lav was interesting. There was a small box that held the blue juice that had to be removed and taken off the plane, dumped, refilled and slid back underneath the toilet.

When Corporate Express (later Corporate and still later Regions Air) purchased Eagle's old J32's they removed the lavs and installed closets.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
 
access-air
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:08 am

Actually, I think that the FAA should re-classify passenger aircraft seating 10-19 seats back to Part 135 status...Obviously the higher cost to run a small regional airline is too costly unless they are blessed enuff to have some EAS routes, and then those are being slowly diminished...Prior to early 1997, Commuter planes from 30 seats on down could operate under Part 135. After that, it was 9 seats or less Part 135 and anything 10 to 30 seats was reclassified to operate under Part 121...Of course there was some reason for this but actualy I cannot remember right off hand as to what they were...

It would be wonderful if Raytheon would start to build the Beech 99 again. Pressurization is not needed if youre in the air for less than an hour...Come on now...we have been spoiled too much. There are many routes to which a Beech 1900 is over kill for and a Beech 99 would be better operated. Firstly, the 99 is NOT pressurized so therefore lighter and does not have the extra weight and complexities of a pressurization system to fool with. Secondly, the 99 is a sturdy and dependable money maker if used responsibly.

I was looking around and discoverd that the owners of Freight Runners out of Milwaukee have actually earned a Supplmental Type Certificate (STC) for the Beech 99 to operate under Part 135 rules by removing seats and limit passengers seats to just 9 seats, typica layout is between 13-15....Imagine all that leg room!!!!!!!!
The only problem is that Between Freight Runners, Wiggins, Alpine and Ameriflight (all Cargo carriers that have extensive Beech 99 fleets) there arent enuff passenger carrying Beech 99s left that could be STC-ed to the Part 135 configuration to make it an after market solution to someone wanting to start a smaller carrier but wanting something under Part 135 larger than a Cessna 402, 404 or a Piper Chieftain and/or not wanting to fly a Single engined aircraft like the Caravan or PC-12.
Even if the FAA upped the Part 135 rules to include aircraft that seat 15 seats, that would allow the original configuration of the Beech 99, A reduced seating EMB 110 Bandeirante, and the Reins/Cessna 406 Caravan II to be used.
I am predicting tho, that eventually, the Part 135 airlines will sometime soon have to fall under the Part 121 banner and that will be the end of ANY small regional airline ever taking to the air. Bye bye to airlines like Cape Air!!!
...It seems that if Congress wants to stop paying out gross amounts of EAS funds then they should relax make the FAA relax some of those rules and allow 19 seaters to fly inder Part 135 again. Am I worng in asking for this???The savings in the operations would mean less cost for EAS carriers and cities and then the taxpayers might stop bitching about having to fund the little pudldle jumping commuter airlines in their town...
.
Okay I think thats all for now.....lets chew on that a bit and see what we all come up with....

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
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RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:21 am

As for the Beech 99, is anyone familiar with Bemidji Air's operations?
 
access-air
Posts: 1576
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 5:30 pm

RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:36 am

Bemidji Air used to use Beech Queen Air's into and out of MSP from Bemidji Minn ona 2wice per day round trip.. I am not sure how many Beech 99s they still have but a buddy of mine made the trip up to BJI shoot slides of all their Queen Air's a couple years ago.....They are/were used primarily for freight Ops.....I have not heard much from them lately so I dont even know if they are still around... Ahhh, I found something..... try this link: http://bemidjiaviation.com/


Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5550
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:18 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 36):
As for the Beech 99, is anyone familiar with Bemidji Air's operations?

Only in general terms - but I have flown KDEN (Stapleton) - KCYS and back on a Beech 99 for a scheduled flight. Forget the airline - it was 1991.
 
eraugrad02
Posts: 658
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:12 am

RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:25 am

I remember in one of my aviation books 15 or so years ago Embrear had a concept for a new 19 seater based on EMB-120 but had pusher props at the back side of the fuselage. I was called the CBA-123. Anyone remember this? Wonder if Beechcraft will do a 1900D NG
Here's a link to the CBA-123. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer/FMA_CBA_123_Vector

[Edited 2007-10-04 19:32:38]
Desmond MacRae in ILM
 
beertrucker
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:13 pm

RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:20 am

To all of you I just say bring back the Twin Otter and that would solve things. LOL. HAHAHA.


I tried to add pics but with the server change it won't let me post them.
Fly HI
 
clipperno1
Posts: 641
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 1999 12:47 am

RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:21 pm

What happened to the Metro? Did anybody (chinese?) buy the production rights?
Wonderful aircraft and the later Metro 23 was a real powerhouse. While the development of the EAS program will certainly be the pacemaker for anything to come, I think there will could be a demand for this aircraft with freight / feeder airlines.
"I really don't know one plane from the other. To me they are just marginal costs with wings."� Alfred Kahn, 1977
 
access-air
Posts: 1576
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 5:30 pm

RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:12 pm

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 38):
Only in general terms - but I have flown KDEN (Stapleton) - KCYS and back on a Beech 99 for a scheduled flight. Forget the airline - it was 1991.

Well that was either Centennial Airlines which flew the Beech C99s or Pioneer Airways that flew Beech 99s. I dont think that when GP Express was flying C99s into DEN that they flew up to CYS so my guess would be one of the two aformentioned. and now that I think of it I think it was most likely Centennial

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
miami1
Posts: 652
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 10:31 pm

RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 3):
I prefer the Jetstream31 or Dornier228. Unlike the Be1900s, they are more comfortable and offer facility for cabin service and a toilet.

Orion 737 - Many airlines' BE1s feature lavatories. Most of VQ's had them. NZ's have them.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: 19 Passenger Class Aircraft

Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:48 am

Quoting Beertrucker (Reply 40):
To all of you I just say bring back the Twin Otter and that would solve things. LOL. HAHAHA.

Wasn't/Isn't there a plan for this? Damn Twotters, love'em or hate'em, it's irreplaceable! To hell with Y12/PZL/C212/whatever else!

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !

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