Joni
Topic Author
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:05 pm

US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:56 am

I just came across this disturbing article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ma.../2007/03/17/etfingerprint11703.xml

The US Department of Homeland Security (DHS) announced this week that it will start fingerprinting all 10 fingers of tourists' hands when they enter the country, raising fears of increased delays for travellers.

Does anyone know when, if, and at which airports will this be taken into use? I've already booked flights into the US and I don't think the tickets are very refundable.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13229
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:29 pm

Oh boy! I hope the arrivals areas at the major international terminals have been made bigger, because this will increase immigration time, by ooh, around about a factor of 5.  banghead 

What extra security does this provide? scratchchin 

Quote:
Bob Mocny, acting director of the US-Visit Programme, the body that runs the American Immigration security, said the new technology would improve both safety and the airport experience for passengers.

How, exactly, will this improve my "airport experience"?  Wow!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
B747forever
Posts: 12855
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:33 pm

Think this is going to far now. The people will never accept this. It is just crazy.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
omoo
Posts: 650
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:35 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:35 pm

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
The US Department of Homeland Security (DHS) announced this week that it will start fingerprinting all 10 fingers of tourists' hands when they enter the country, raising fears of increased delays for travellers.

Does anyone know when, if, and at which airports will this be taken into use? I've already booked flights into the US and I don't think the tickets are very refundable.

They already do this for all non-waiver countries, everywhere !
Fly Air Popobawa
 
oly720man
Posts: 5740
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 7:13 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:06 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 1):
What extra security does this provide?

It doesn't. If they're lucky, though, it'll tell 'em whodunnit.

Btw, is everyone already there fingerprinted? I'd hazard a guess that way more crimes in the US are committed by Americans than by visitors.


Anyway, I hope things have improved since Bill Bryson wrote one of his books where a friend in the US needed to send fingerprints and he only had 9 fingers... but the agency in question wouldn't accept 9 fingers and kept sending back his stuff saying they needed 10 fingerprints... despite being told about the lack of one finger.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
bloodyrascal
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:48 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:44 am

It is supposed to make it easier? so after being randomed search and all that jazz and no liquids or w.e and not being able to bring HARDLY anything anymore on planes, no food on flights unless they are like 7 hours (usually u have to pay) and now instead of 2 fingers you have 10. Oh man after all of this i would be really stressed out man oh man its getting more uncomfortable to fly my goodness.

(Stupid question) - would that also affect the countires that have US preclearance?
 
dl767captain
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:51 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:31 am

it might cause some delays but it is a good idea, that way if a terrorist ever came to the country and later committed a crime and knowing his fingerprint helped prevent a major terrorist attack that would be pretty good.
 
OHLHD
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:02 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:42 am

One day these people will realize that all these measures only hurt their country......not actually help them.

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 6):
it might cause some delays but it is a good idea, that way if a terrorist ever came to the country and later committed a crime and knowing his fingerprint helped prevent a major terrorist attack that would be pretty good.

Yes or it will help to identify the terrorist after he made his attack. Good only for the media then.
 
airtran737
Posts: 3217
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 2):
Think this is going to far now. The people will never accept this. It is just crazy

You're a guest when you come here, and are expected to comply with our rules. We want to know who comes and goes, it is our perogative. I fully comply with rules of other countries that I visit. Air travel is a privilege, not a right.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
star_world
Posts: 943
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2001 7:52 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:29 am

Quoting Omoo (Reply 3):
They already do this for all non-waiver countries, everywhere !

No they don't - not on arrival anyway. Only left and right index finger, regardless of waiver vs. non waiver country.

Getting your visa is a different story, but this doesn't impact the queues at the airport.

If this is going to happen, it will cause complete chaos - guaranteed. it is just the sort of decision I can imagine DHS taking with zero comprehension of the impact to travellers vs. the benefit it would bring. As someone who travels to / from the US on pretty much a weekly basis this wouldn't make my "airport experience" better in the slightest.

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 6):
it might cause some delays but it is a good idea, that way if a terrorist ever came to the country and later committed a crime and knowing his fingerprint helped prevent a major terrorist attack that would be pretty good.

Sorry but this is complete nonsense. They should put the focus and investment on finding those 1 in a million people, not penalising the other 999,999. I've said it before and I'll say it again - DHS is the most incompetent agency when it comes to security, which is unfortunate since this is their main remit!
 
worldrider
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:26 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:32 am

Quoting Omoo (Reply 3):
They already do this for all non-waiver countries, everywhere !

as far as i know, not i my country
 
worldrider
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:26 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:07 am

the new enmies are a blessing for "democratic" countries since communism is death. they're a good entertainment
and fear subject, as i said subject not object. no private liberties can resist, no critic can be tolerated and if you do resist, be aware!! atomic evil could get closer closer.. "you are not requested to think, keep busy keep busy, we will save you from danger and you better be thankfull" and in the the mean time we are leaving a death planet to our children.

that's what people call a healthy society, total ohh sorry capitalism is our saviour, yehhhh!!! :-|
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:29 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:17 am

I'm not sure whether this will increase delays, because you could put all ten fingers at the same time with the right scanner. However, even more people will avoid travelling to the USA. Not the terrorists, they don't even care about their own lives, but the normal, responsible, and self-thinking citizen with a free mind.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
columba
Posts: 5043
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:31 am

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 6):
it might cause some delays but it is a good idea, that way if a terrorist ever came to the country and later committed a crime and knowing his fingerprint helped prevent a major terrorist attack that would be pretty good.

You should read this article
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,509027,00.html

I think America has more to offer than the fear of terrorists:

Quote:
Before 9/11, the world thought America's slogan was: "Where anything is possible for anybody." But that is not our global brand anymore. Our government has been exporting fear, not hope: "Give me your tired, your poor and your fingerprints."

You may think Guantánamo Bay is a prison camp in Cuba for Al Qaeda terrorists. A lot of the world thinks it's a place we send visitors who don't give the right answers at immigration. I will not vote for any candidate who is not committed to dismantling Guantánamo Bay and replacing it with a free field hospital for poor Cubans. Guantánamo Bay is the anti-Statue of Liberty.
Roger Dow, president of the Travel Industry Association, told me that the United States has lost millions of overseas visitors since 9/11 -- even though the dollar is weak and America is on sale. "Only the U.S. is losing traveler volume among major countries, which is unheard of in today's world," Mr. Dow said.

Total business arrivals to the United States fell by 10 percent over the 2004-5 period alone, while the number of business visitors to Europe grew by 8 percent in that time. The travel industry's recent Discover America Partnership study concluded that "the U.S. entry process has created a climate of fear and frustration that is turning away foreign business and leisure travelers and hurting America's image abroad.



[Edited 2007-10-06 01:35:18]
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:29 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:43 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 13):

There are fewer people travelling to the US from Europe, despite the lower dollar. And I understand that. People who have to travel due to family or business reasons will still do so, but the average tourist often decided to go somewhere else.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
jimbobjoe
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2001 2:04 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:46 am

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 4):
Btw, is everyone already there fingerprinted?

Oh hell no.

A few states (only about six of them) collect a fingerprint to get a driving license. However, the prints are not good enough to use for law enforcement purposes.

Most Americans have never been fingerprinted.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 8):
Air travel is a privilege, not a right.

My law dictionary considers those two words as being synonymous.
 
tennis69
Posts: 340
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:00 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:35 am

Hey - I am a US citizen and work in Qatar. In order to get a work permit I had to undergo a complete physical including being tested for AIDS, had a retina scan, and had all 10 fingers printed. I realize this comment has nothing to do with travel and tourism, but, it goes to this - f you don't like the rules or laws of a country then don't go there. Your choice.
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9197
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:57 am

Well, it's either we accept it or we don't go to the U.S. at all.
Not that it is much fun going through all this but we have no choice.

Some countries are too laxed (France) some others are way too tight.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:08 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 8):
Air travel is a privilege, not a right.

I disagree. Most democratic constitutions I know incorporate some sort of freedom of movement and as there are literally no alternatives to air travel in intercontinental travel I would deduct a right for air travel that is valid at least among those communities that call themselves free and democratic (or at least commit themselves to "freedom of movement").

Quoting Thorben (Reply 14):
There are fewer people traveling to the US from Europe, despite the lower dollar. And I understand that. People who have to travel due to family or business reasons will still do so, but the average tourist often decided to go somewhere else

My parents were on a private journey PAD-FRA-MIA-GUA two weeks ago and passing through MIA was really a traumatic event for them. They hardly speak any English and experienced the entire process in MIA as pure harassment. Together with the apparently bad AA product on the MIA-GUA leg the US (from a travelers perspective) did their job in messing up with their image just again very proficiently. They will go to GUA in December again and were happy to accept the 300€ higher price of the DUS-MAD-SJO-GUA itinerary with IB and did not had to go through MIA again. And this might just be one story out of a million ...

[Edited 2007-10-06 03:09:56]
 
rojo
Posts: 2254
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 6:08 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:12 am

I think the US should consider an improvement to the technology used by the DHS and come with new solutions like issuing visas similar to the ones Mexicans get (Laser Visa) that can incorporate your 10 fingerprints. People who travel regularly to the US (even if they are under a Visa Waiver passport) should get this visas and DHS should have special lines for them at all airports (kind of the iris scan in EU airports) where only one fingerprint will validate your identity. This will improve the entrance process for frequent travelers who already suffer from major delays when arriving at US airports.

If the US wants to get the 10 fingerprints from each traveler, ok... but they need to improve the arrivals process and give choices to frequent travelers who have to visit the US regularly for business... some of us work for multinational companies based in the US and we need to go there for business!!
 
bennett123
Posts: 7425
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:10 pm

Tennis69

It seems that significant numbers are already choosing to go somewhere else.
 
SA7700
Posts: 2940
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:38 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:28 pm

Quoting Rojo (Reply 20):
I think the US should consider an improvement to the technology used by the DHS and come with new solutions like issuing visas similar to the ones Mexicans get (Laser Visa) that can incorporate your 10 fingerprints. People who travel regularly to the US (even if they are under a Visa Waiver passport) should get this visas and DHS should have special lines for them at all airports (kind of the iris scan in EU airports) where only one fingerprint will validate your identity. This will improve the entrance process for frequent travelers who already suffer from major delays when arriving at US airports.

IMO it’s a great suggestion. Question is: "Will the bureaucrats fall for it". I don't mind giving my fingerprints....I will give them an imprint of my “rear-end” in clay as well, as long as the customs-and immigration process takes less time.


Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
bennett123
Posts: 7425
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:30 pm

That will be required next week.  Smile
 
sh0rtybr0wn
Posts: 373
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:16 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:35 pm

The idea of fingerprinting tens of millions of tourists every year is insane. It is casting far too wide a net. It alienates people from other countries by treating them like common criminals. It will continue to decrease tourism to the U.S. and erode any good will that might still exist toward the USA.
And why? Does anybody think Al Quaeda will send people with a criminal record to carry out a terrorist attack? No way. The 9/11 hijackers all had legitimate visas.
Maybe Homeland security is trying to making entry to America so offensive and shameful that tourists will stop coming to America altogether.
And how long untill American citizens need to be fingerprinted to leave the country and re-enter? Thats probably next.
 
omoo
Posts: 650
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:35 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:03 pm

Quoting Worldrider (Reply 10):
as far as i know, not i my country

Most of Europe are waiver countries, to get a US visa if you are not from Europe or a few Asian countries you have to get fingerprinted.
Fly Air Popobawa
 
bennett123
Posts: 7425
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:12 pm

I am sure that when I visited NY in 2005 that I was fingerprinted.

Despite a notice saying that VWF countries did not require fingerprints.
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:27 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 1):
Quote:
Bob Mocny, acting director of the US-Visit Programme, the body that runs the American Immigration security, said the new technology would improve both safety and the airport experience for passengers.

How, exactly, will this improve my "airport experience"?

...  rotfl  ... that has to rank among the most ridiculous PR comments I've read in years...  rotfl 

Quoting B747forever (Reply 2):
Think this is going to far now. The people will never accept this. It is just crazy.

And what, besides not travelling to the US will they do? If you want to travel to the US, those are the rules. Don't like it? Don't travel there.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 8):
You're a guest when you come here, and are expected to comply with our rules. We want to know who comes and goes, it is our perogative. I fully comply with rules of other countries that I visit.

As much as I dislike these rules, as much as I think they add absolutely nothing in terms of security, like about 98% of the other nonsensical rules that have been introduced since 9/11, I agree with you there.

Quoting Jimbobjoe (Reply 15):
Most Americans have never been fingerprinted.

... unless they've travelled to Brazil...  Wink

Quoting Jimbobjoe (Reply 15):
My law dictionary considers those two words as being synonymous.

A right is something that you, for lack of a better word, have a "right" to - it is yours, you can demand that, whatever "it" is, be made available/offered/whatever to you. You're entitled to it.

A privilege is something that you do not have a right to, but something that is offered to you - because you've proven to be trustworthy, because you're a friend, because you've paid for it, ... but whatever it is, you're not entitled to it.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 18):
I disagree. Most democratic constitutions I know incorporate some sort of freedom of movement and as there are literally no alternatives to air travel in intercontinental travel I would deduct a right for air travel that is valid at least among those communities that call themselves free and democratic (or at least commit themselves to "freedom of movement").

Yes, true - but no democratic constitution on the face of this planet gives you the guarantee that you'll be able to enter the United States of America without getting fingerprinted.

What's all the fuss about anyhow? While these requirements are annyoing, mostly superfluous and not good for anything but to alleviate the fears of some by giving the outwardly impression that something is being done for the sake of security, getting a visa for dozens of other countries is still far, far more complicated than being able to enter the US of A when coming from one of the countries participating in the visa waiver program.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
User avatar
modernArt
Posts: 465
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 2:23 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:04 pm

I seem to recall a thread a week or two ago about finger printing at LHR and LGW barely raising the ire of anyone on a.net. But when it's the good ole U.S of A, folks can't resist the urge to lambast and lay unfounded scorn in their wake. Funny thing is nearly every European country is probably watching these developments (or investigating similar technology) with interest as they too will eventually adopt stricter controls at their various points of entry.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 14):
There are fewer people travelling to the US from Europe, despite the lower dollar

If you can cite a statistic, please do.

Otherwise, all the ruffled feathers by the Europeans on this thread are laughable. You are likely going to come to the USA despite the hoops and hurdles. The number of new flight announcements for 2008 - not to mention the yet unrealised benefits of Open Skies - prove that travel between the two continents is healthy and growing.

But alas, please accept this American's apology in advance if you come across a surley airport official in Miami, New York or anywhere else your flight lands. We acknowledge that they are just about the worst representitives of this great country. We certainly understand the contempt that you might feel - but let it go when you leave the airport and enjoy.
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:19 pm

Is there any information available on when they delete the information gathered from innocent travelers?
 
sfuk
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:30 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:27 pm

Quoting ModernArt (Reply 27):
But alas, please accept this American's apology in advance if you come across a surley airport official in Miami, New York or anywhere else your flight lands. We acknowledge that they are just about the worst representitives of this great country. We certainly understand the contempt that you might feel - but let it go when you leave the airport and enjoy.

No apology needed from you my friend. Yes, 'some' of the immigration officers could do with going to charm school but the same could be said about many other countries officers as well. At the end of the day they're there to do a job and that job is not to be all smiles and happy-go-lucky. The vast majority of my trips to the US have been greeted with an officer who has been perfectly polite and efficient.

And as you say, it's only the first few minutes. Suck it up and enjoy whats to follow.

Stu
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:29 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 26):
Yes, true - but no democratic constitution on the face of this planet gives you the guarantee that you'll be able to enter the United States of America without getting fingerprinted.

I did not say that. I just disagreed with AirTran737 who denied that there is a right for air travel.
 
albird87
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:15 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:37 pm

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 8):
You're a guest when you come here, and are expected to comply with our rules. We want to know who comes and goes, it is our perogative. I fully comply with rules of other countries that I visit. Air travel is a privilege, not a right.

Yeah and as guests you want them to come as it brings in money to your country. If they make it soo strict and a pain in the ass to visit then you aint gonna get them comin back and you shall lose more and more tourists, less income to the country.
If any of you can explain to me how this makes the country safer then please go ahead. What this is, is parranoia from the US. I have never seen anyother country pose these kind of immigration laws for people just coming to visit and not work and live in the country.

And all that rubbish about air travel being a privilege!! Get off your high horse. Why cant people who want to see the world and experience different culture be limited to the US's pre-approved list of countries and race.

soo much for the lan of the free
 
albird87
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:15 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:40 pm

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 32):
soo much for the lan of the free

let me correct that should say land!
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:04 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 33):
Freedom to travel WITHIN a country is what you are talking about, as well as freedom to LEAVE a country. But there is no way one country's "democratic constitution" can dictate entry into a DIFFERENT, sovereign country, and in fact, even the most democratic of countries prohibit their citizenry from traveling TO certain other countries from time to time. And all countries, democratic or not, retain the right to enforce entry INTO their country.

Entry into a foreign, sovereign nation is a right extended to you BY THAT NATION and part of the invitation is to follow the rules they set for you.

That distinction is almost irrelevant, because the procedure travelers have to endure when just transiting at an US airport is hardly less harassing than if I wanted to enter. And transiting is not entering by definition ...
 
caspritz78
Posts: 229
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:51 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:15 pm

I actually think the 10 finger scan will go faster then the left-right index finger scanning. Every time I enter the US I see people struggling with left and right (which side was what?) and index finger (which one is it?). Just to put you whole hand on a scanner is much easier. I actually think that the whole immigration process in the US is very well handled at the airports and that the officers are doing their job well and are very patient. I fell more comfortable entering the US instead of the chaos that I always encounter at Frankfurt Airport when I come home. No employees that help passengers to find the right immigration line. No employees that make a quick pre check of your documents. No single waiting line. Just plain chaos. Why do they have lanes for Europeans and Non-Europeans if they don't care?

I don't see any problem with all the procedures at the US airports. I think what really could become a problem is the idea of the "48hour before flying to the US registration" rule if it should ever come. This is real red tape.
 
jimbobjoe
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2001 2:04 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:59 pm

Quoting ModernArt (Reply 26):
If you can cite a statistic, please do.

Can we ever! That Thomas Friedman article listed before (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,509027,00.html) talked about it.

Here's another article: http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pb...rticle?AID=/20071006/BIZ/710060306

"And in Boston, international tourism has declined 25 percent over the last six years, according to the U.S. Department of Commerce." (The article says it's up slightly in 2007...but the dollar has been relatively low compared to a lot of other currencies since 2005.)

"The legislation aims to improve homeland security and clarify the entry process for foreigners in order to mitigate perceptions that it is among the most arduous. The Commerce Department found that heightened security since 9/11 has bolstered this perception, helping explain the 17 percent decline in overseas visitors since 2000."

The only countrymen visiting the US in consistently greater numbers are Canadians--the only nationality exempted from fingerprinting.

There are many other articles on this...US-VISIT also has discouraged international conventions from taking place in the US. Canada has gained a lot of convention business.

To be fair, apparently Japan starts US-VISIT like fingerprinting/photographing in November.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 32):
If only that were true, your argument would be more valid.

Oh no, it most certainly is true, please see the text above.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 25):

A privilege is something that you do not have a right to, but something that is offered to you - because you've proven to be trustworthy, because you're a friend, because you've paid for it, ... but whatever it is, you're not entitled to it.

That definition of privilege is the "non-legal" one--it's a layman's concept of it. Even then, just about everything is a right. (A right which may be regulated--the right to free speech doesn't include yelling "fire" in a theater.)

The few "privileges" that may exist include things like:

* a company is granted a charter to the mineral rights on a piece of land. The company was selected by the state, but not necessarily through a process of competitive bidding because that strikes me as being more on the "rights" side of things. (You could say that this is essentially the "because you're a friend" part of privilege.
 
Joni
Topic Author
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:05 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:07 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 28):
Is there any information available on when they delete the information gathered from innocent travelers?

There was IIRC a small controversy as the "DHS" didn't at first agree to disclose exactly what they meant by their statement that the fingerprints and other data would be stored only temporarily, but in the end they had to tell what the time period was: 100 years. This is only the time period they store the data, they do state they share the information with other agencies, both US-internal and international, and those likely won't feel like abiding by any erasure deadlines.
 
magyar
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2000 4:11 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 8):
You're a guest when you come here, andnare expected to comply with our rules. We want to know who comes andngoes, it is our perogative. I fully comply with rules of otherncountries that I visit. Air travel is a privilege, not a right.

Your fellow americans did not seem to think this way when the issue of the American pilots involved in the GOL
crash was discussed here. It appeared that they questioned procedures and laws in Brazil quite arrogantly.
Honestly, I believe your security would improve way more if you started to treat others like you would do with
your fellow americans rather than coming up new ways to humiliate foreigners.
 
Halophila
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:44 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 35):
Just to put you whole hand on a scanner is much easier. I actually think that the whole immigration process in the US is very well handled at the airports and that the officers are doing their job well and are very patient.

While I agree, I can't see the US government springing for entirely new scanners; more than likely it will be that you have to scan your left index, left middle, left pinkie etc... It will take more time for sure if that happens.

Simple answer I think to alleviate all foreigners concerns is to simply have the staff on hand to man all of the immigration booths for foreigners all the time (and the budget to support that). The number of times I have come to the customs hall, entered the line with 10 - 15 booths available and only half are manned, is staggering.

One final way to alleviate this issue is to offer nonresident aliens (students, teachers, athletes, anyone who actually obtains a visa) a type of preclearance, or green card. The ultimate decision to allow entry to ports in the US now rests with the immigrations officer, regardless of whether a visa is valid or not. If this responsibility were to be put onto embassy/consulate staff at the time of visa application, there wouldn't be a need to extensive questioning and fingerprinting at the airport on entry. For example, I'm a nonresident alien who has been living in the US, legally under two different types of visa, for the majority of my life now. Last time I entered into the US, I got a grilling from the immigration officer, asking all manner of questions, like how many visas I had before the current one, whether I could produce those, where was I born, why was I born where I was, whether I spoke any other languages etc. This is all information I had to provide when securing my nonresident alien visa (s). Surely some kind of electronic greencard for nonresidents which contains all of this information, and expires in validity like a credit card when program rules are breached or when the visa expires would ease entry.

Oh and yes, I would like to become a US permanent resident. However, despite living legally in the US as a nonresident for most of my life, the only way I can do so is to either marry someone (which is illegal under present laws- I'm gay), or through permanent employment (which I'm working on)...
Flown on 707, 717, 727, 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 741 742 743 744 74SP 757 753 762 763 772 773 77W D10 DC9 M11 M80 M87
 
COEWR787
Posts: 298
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 12:59 am

Quoting Halophila (Reply 40):
While I agree, I can't see the US government springing for entirely new scanners; more than likely it will be that you have to scan your left index, left middle, left pinkie etc... It will take more time for sure if that happens.

Dunno. I just got myself finger-printed and iris-scanned for getting security clearance and the fingerprinting process was amazingly quick. You stick one entire hand on the glass plate, click, set the other hand on the glass plate, click. Maybe all of 15 seconds if that. The technology exists to do this quite quickly and quite simply. Of course how getting all this information helps in any way other than making a bureaucracy think that they are doing something useful may be quite an open to question.

Quoting Halophila (Reply 40):
why was I born where I was,

I just can't help but be curious as to what you answered for that one  scratchchin 
 
wingnut767
Posts: 762
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:50 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:41 am

If you do not want your fingers scanned then just cross from south of the border. No passport , Visa or fingerprints required. And Mexico is more thatn happy to help you cross
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
Wsp
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 7:43 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:08 am

The process itself is rather painless when it works (except for the long queue due to understaffing). But what gets reported abroad is when people are turned back with no reason given after being interrogated for hours and locked up in a cell like criminals. This is when you start wondering if the Dominican Republic might be a nice vacation substitute for Miami.

The next problem is that the system is rigged against the traveler. Most first-time-travelers will learn when they visit the US Embassy website that they fall under the VWP and are told explicitly not to apply for a visa at the embassy. Later when they have paid for their vacation and have roughly 30 minutes left to landing in the US they will be presented with an decidedly unfair deal: the I-94W form (the picture shows a slightly outdated version). At this point they have two choices:

a) take the next flight back, loosing all the money you spent on the trip,
b) sign this form.

In addition to that the airline will gently remind you that if you make a cross under "Yes" on the reverse side it is the same as option (a). Unfortunately the airline is not a good substitute for a lawyer and its advice may be against your best interests (for example here).

The form

a) contains complicated English legalese that the average visitor will not be able to even translate ("turpitude" anyone?),

b) even if he understands it the text he will not be able to understand the legal meaning and implications of these questions,
b1) in part because they are legal junk like "...are you seeking entry to engage in criminal or immoral activities?", there are few words that have less meaning than the word "moral",

c) includes a waiver that denies the visitor any right to appeal the immigration officer's decision.

As a consequence large numbers of travelers are forced to sign a legally complicated document that they do not understand that uses broad and vague terms that could mean anything and that can later be used in court against them.
 
Halophila
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:44 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:53 am

Quoting COEWR787 (Reply 40):
You stick one entire hand on the glass plate, click, set the other hand on the glass plate, click.

That will work very well if that's the case! Actually come to think of it, the US did invest a lot of money in those US-VISIT exit kiosks, then after the pilot program decided they weren't worth it, or that they would just integrate it upon check-in. So it's entirely feasible they'll spring for new scanners.

Quoting COEWR787 (Reply 40):
I just can't help but be curious as to what you answered for that one

A strange question to be sure! It's because I'm of an ethnicity which is inconsistent with my country of birth, but it does sound like a funny question without context, doesn't it  Smile
Flown on 707, 717, 727, 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 741 742 743 744 74SP 757 753 762 763 772 773 77W D10 DC9 M11 M80 M87
 
jbernie
Posts: 206
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:09 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:11 am

If they use the correct technology to make the scan as quickly as possible, ie place both hands on this surface sir (scan) done. Then it won't make too much of a difference as it can be done in the same time it takes today, for families travelling together there might need to be a small delay. This could be quickened by only requiring people over say the age of 16 or 18 to have their fingerprints scanned, unless those pesky 2yo's are up to something? (a la Stewie on Family Guy).

If common sense and the right technology is used, then the process can be implimented without causing delays. If necessary they could break the lines down a bit further so you have one for US Residents/Citizens, another for countries with Visa Waivers (Aust. NZ, UK) and then all other countries. I guess part of it would be wanting to check what is scanned against what is on file to stop the person from entering. I would suggest that they only check against known "offenders" so the amount of data to check against is much smaller further reducing time.

Quoting Sfuk (Reply 30):
Yes, 'some' of the immigration officers could do with going to charm school but the same could be said about many other countries officers as well. At the end of the day they're there to do a job and that job is not to be all smiles and happy-go-lucky. The vast majority of my trips to the US have been greeted with an officer who has been perfectly polite and efficient.

So true, I just flew back from Australia (I am a US resident), I am white, my gf & her dad who were traveling with me are Asian but US Citizens, the Immigration officer asked the "relationship" and suggested "cousin" with a smile, I politely asked in jest that he didnt see the resemblence?  Smile He even asked if my gf was the reason why i had shaved my goatee off. At 7am in the morning on next to no sleep in 36 hours, it makes quite a difference to have someone with a sense of humor. Makes for a great first impression of a country.
 
yfbflyer
Posts: 255
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:50 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:28 am

Quoting Magyar (Reply 39):
Honestly, I believe your security would improve way more if you started to treat others like you would do with
your fellow americans rather than coming up new ways to humiliate foreigners.

Actually they have a great number of ways to humiliate their own citizens as it is. I think what is most egregious to most people is that fingerprinting is generally reserved for people being charged with a crime. So in essence the USA is treating it's visitors as criminals.
In the 30's there was a movement to fingerprint all American citizens.
http://jimfisher.edinboro.edu/forensics/univ1.html
This was done under the public fear of crime.
I find it disturbing that history repeats it's self so regularly.
I perdict that Americans will suffer retalitory fingerprinting in many countries.

btw I love that screen name Magyar
 
bananaboy
Posts: 1466
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:58 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:58 am

Quoting Star_world (Reply 9):
If this is going to happen, it will cause complete chaos - guaranteed. it is just the sort of decision I can imagine DHS taking with zero comprehension of the impact to travellers vs. the benefit it would bring. As someone who travels to / from the US on pretty much a weekly basis this wouldn't make my "airport experience" better in the slightest.

Not that I believe it is strictly necessary, but I have read that they believe it will not increase processing time by more than 30 seconds or so per person. Given that I have waited in LAX for 2 hours, and MIA for nearly 3, I would guess that inneficiancy / lack of available staff is a bigger issue in terms of traveller (in)convenience.


Mark
All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
 
worldrider
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:26 am

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:31 am

not to forget the billlliooons  dollarsign   dollarsign   dollarsign  these private companies are making! all the intense lobbying behind this paranoia seeking to invade about everything in our everyday life, at our borders, on the streets, at work, even at our chirldren schools, at the supermaket. it's just everything people, things, movements, habits, all about our life is scanned, filed and compiled into computers between hands of commercial-political -in opinion it's the same- entities. what are their interest? what kind of society?


just to picture that i recently red an article talking about the big cash mister president got for his campaign from that company that was selling the new computerised election machines to the state..yeah just an example of democracy. bravo! and it's just benign little example.

cheers!!!
 
Joni
Topic Author
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:05 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:33 am

Quoting COEWR787 (Reply 40):
Dunno. I just got myself finger-printed and iris-scanned for getting security clearance and the fingerprinting process was amazingly quick. You stick one entire hand on the glass plate, click, set the other hand on the glass plate, click. Maybe all of 15 seconds if that.

I don't feel this is the key issue. There is, or can be developed, technology to painlessly remove your testicles in 15 seconds. That doesn't mean it'd be a good idea to install it in airports.

The "DHS" claims that 1800 arrests have been made using the fingerprints gathered at US airports, however they've had to take 80 million person's prints to make those arrests - the cost in terms of lost privacy isn't worth the benefit.
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:53 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 38):
There was IIRC a small controversy as the "DHS" didn't at first agree to disclose exactly what they meant by their statement that the fingerprints and other data would be stored only temporarily, but in the end they had to tell what the time period was: 100 years. This is only the time period they store the data, they do state they share the information with other agencies, both US-internal and international, and those likely won't feel like abiding by any erasure deadlines.

That is outrageous to say the least. Especially for transiting passengers who do not want to enter the country at all.

Quoting Joni (Reply 48):
the cost in terms of lost privacy isn't worth the benefit.

I don't think that people's privacy and informational self-determination as we know it over here, has any value to the DHS. The opposite may be the case. This sounds very much like a police-state to me.

Quoting Wsp (Reply 42):
The next problem is that the system is rigged against the traveler. Most first-time-travelers will learn when they visit the US Embassy website that they fall under the VWP and are told explicitly not to apply for a visa at the embassy. Later when they have paid for their vacation and have roughly 30 minutes left to landing in the US they will be presented with an decidedly unfair deal: the I-94W form (the picture shows a slightly outdated version). At this point they have two choices:

I don't see the problem in the existence of this form. Most countries in the world require incoming passengers to fill something like this or even more complicated. The problem is in

  • the data collected from the airline
  • the data collected from the interview and from fingerprints etc.
  • the general conduct that treats all passengers similar to criminals
  • the fact that transiting passengers are forced to undergo the same procedures as if they intended to enter the US, just in order to collect as much information as possible, although these people only involuntarily get into contact with the US.
  • the attitude of the security immigration personnel


Although you're right about the meaningfulness of some questions. Asking whether someone intends to commit crimes, is certainly the most dumbest thing I have ever come across since medical examination for military service ("Are you a bed-netter?").

[Edited 2007-10-07 04:59:34]
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:29 pm

RE: US To Take All Ten Fingerprints On Entry?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:25 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 18):

Man, if they even treat transit pax (who want to leave the US as soon as they can) like that, then there is really something wrong.

Quoting ModernArt (Reply 27):
If you can cite a statistic, please do.

http://www.tia.org/researchpubs/ivis...nternational_visitor_arrivals.html

Change of pax coming to the US from 2000 to 2005

Germany -21%
France -19%
UK -8%
Italy -11%
Sweden -10%
Switzerland -35%
Netherlands -19%
Belgium -23%
Austria -33%

Positive are
Ireland +34%
Spain +9%

China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong also 23-34% less visitors

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 28):
Is there any information available on when they delete the information gathered from innocent travelers?

I think after 99 years.

Quoting Worldrider (Reply 45):
not to forget the billlliooons dollarsign dollarsign dollarsign these private companies are making! all the intense lobbying behind this paranoia seeking to invade about everything in our everyday life, at our borders, on the streets, at work, even at our chirldren schools, at the supermaket. it's just everything people, things, movements, habits, all about our life is scanned, filed and compiled into computers between hands of commercial-political -in opinion it's the same- entities. what are their interest? what kind of society?


just to picture that i recently red an article talking about the big cash mister president got for his campaign from that company that was selling the new computerised election machines to the state..yeah just an example of democracy. bravo! and it's just benign little example.

Normally I try to avoid anti-capitalistic talk, but our former interior minister Otto Schily - mainly responsible for the introduction of biometric passports in the EU - now has
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011