j_hallgren
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Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:34 pm

Seems like deja vu all over again! From St Petersburg Times today (Oct 5):
"Southwest Airlines says it will apologize to Joe Winiecki for making him change his T-shirt, which uses sexual double entendre to promote a fictional fishing tackle shop."

See http://www.sptimes.com/2007/10/05/Business/Clothes_call_dings_So.shtml
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SOBHI51
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:04 pm

Southwest again? It is becoming boring
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CMHSRQ
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:22 pm

That is one classy T-shirt.
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tinpusher007
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:33 pm

They need to get over themselves! Isn't this the airline that is supposed to be laid-back? There was nothing wrong with that shit. The type of people that fly on and for WN don't strike me as the type that would find his shirt or a damn mini-skirt offensive. For the most part, WN is the darling of the industry. Do they really want to start pissing people off?
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slider
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:02 pm

"It's really disappointing in this country when I can't travel from Ohio to Florida with the clothes on my back," Winiecki said Thursday. "Who's to say what's offensive and what's not?"


First moron, freedom of speech is not absolute. Secondly, there is responsibility to go with it. Yeah, nice cute double entendre, haha, we all get a chuckle, now change it. Who's to say what's offensive? Easy. The company. They reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.

Time for people to get off this high horse of thinking they can do anything they want without consequence.

And it's time to raise the bar on what people wear in this country. For crying out loud.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:20 pm

Freedom of Speech is for POLITICAL SPEECH. Not funny, sexually sugestive t-shirts.

-Aloha!
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yowza
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:51 pm

I think WN need to get a grip. Seriously, anyone who understands the double entendre is old enough to see it.

YOWza
 
cloudyapple
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:56 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
First moron, freedom of speech is not absolute. Secondly, there is responsibility to go with it. Yeah, nice cute double entendre, haha, we all get a chuckle, now change it. Who's to say what's offensive? Easy. The company. They reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.

Plain red or green T-shirts can be offensive to the colour blinds. Tshirts with pictures of cats are offensive to dog lovers. A million reasons to refuse you boarding. Depends how zealous and pedantic the judge is.
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AAFan
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:59 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
Who's to say what's offensive? Easy. The company. They reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.

Except in this case it was not the company that said it was offensive, it was one particular FA. The "company" actually admitted that they made a mistake and apologized to the customer.
 
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:36 pm

Quoting TINPUSHER007 (Reply 3):
The type of people that fly on and for WN don't strike me as the type that would find his shirt or a damn mini-skirt offensive.

"type" of people? What exactly do you mean? I've flown for other carriers, pax are ALL the same, trust me. First Class, Business Class, NO class.....they're everywhere. This assumption that our people are somehow different is tired.....Z Z zzz
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sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:45 pm

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 5):
Freedom of Speech is for POLITICAL SPEECH. Not funny, sexually sugestive t-shirts.

-Aloha!

No; Free Speech is Free Speech. Period . Point blank.

U.S. Constitution :

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

"or abridging the freedom of speech" .... thats pretty clear.
 
n710ps
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:01 pm

What the hell happened to the time when class and flying were asociated? Oh I forgot that dissapeared when Southwest came to being. (My girlfriend would shoot me if she saw this shes an WN F/A) I never fly in anything less than a pair of slacks and a polo shirt with classy shoes. Not just because my company policy states it but because I still respect flight that much. As much as I get a chuckle out of it I think that it should be reserved for the amusement park. Not the cabin of an airplane. No matter how classless an airline it is.
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redflyer
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:13 pm

Quoting TINPUSHER007 (Reply 3):
For the most part, WN is the darling of the industry. Do they really want to start pissing people off?

Who, exactly, are the "people" that they are pissing off?

Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
First moron, freedom of speech is not absolute. Secondly, there is responsibility to go with it. Yeah, nice cute double entendre, haha, we all get a chuckle, now change it. Who's to say what's offensive? Easy. The company. They reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.

Time for people to get off this high horse of thinking they can do anything they want without consequence.

 checkmark 

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 10):
No; Free Speech is Free Speech. Period . Point blank.

Really? Can you walk down any public street with a T-shirt on that says "F&$% YOU" emblazoned on the back without getting arrested? Or how about yelling "Fire" (when there isn't one) in a crowded theater? All of them forms of "Free Speech" and all them forms of speech that will get you thrown into jail.
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slider
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:24 pm

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 7):
Plain red or green T-shirts can be offensive to the colour blinds. Tshirts with pictures of cats are offensive to dog lovers. A million reasons to refuse you boarding. Depends how zealous and pedantic the judge is.

That is an apples to watermelons argument and is wholly illogical. Actually, it’s kind of ridiculous.

In this case, you can make an argument that the t-shirt, double entendre or not, constitutes obscenity—promoting the general corruption or morals. Appealing to the prurient interest, as it were.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/o002.htm

There are 3 general tests—read on, fair use excerpt:

Quote:
An appeal to "prurient" interest is an appeal to a morbid, degrading and unhealthy interest in sex, as distinguished from a mere candid interest in sex.

The first test to be applied, therefore, in determining whether given material is obscene, is whether the predominant theme or purpose of the material, when viewed as a whole and not part by part, and when considered in relation to the intended and probable recipients, is an appeal to the prurient interest of the average person of the community as a whole, or the prurient interest of members of a deviant sexual group, as the case might be.

The second test to be applied in determining whether given material is obscene is whether it depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct such as ultimate sexual acts, normal or perverted, actual or simulated; masturbation; excretory functions; or lewd exhibition of the genitals measured against whether the material is patently offensive by contemporary community standards; that is, whether it so exceeds the generally accepted limits of candor as to be clearly offensive.

The third test to be applied in determining whether given material is obscene is whether the material, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value. An item may have serious value in one or more of these areas even though it portrays explicit sexual conduct.

All three of these tests must be met before the material in question can be found to be obscene. If any one of them is not met the material would not be obscene within the meaning of the law.

Hmmm…check on 1, 2, and 3.
 
NASBWI
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:25 pm

Quoting N710PS (Reply 11):
What the hell happened to the time when class and flying were asociated? Oh I forgot that dissapeared when Southwest came to being.

I wouldn't say that Southwest was the cause. Deregulation was the real "killer" there. WN has been flying since 1971. Deregulation didn't happen until 1978. Complaining about the lack of class displayed throughout an industry, then (incorrectly) blaming a certain airline for it doesn't strike me as particularly classy. A lot of people these days can still afford to buy $10,000 tickets in F on airline X, Y, or Z and still board with questionable character - dresscode notwithstanding. Don't confuse cashless with classless.

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 9):
"type" of people? What exactly do you mean? I've flown for other carriers, pax are ALL the same, trust me. First Class, Business Class, NO class.....they're everywhere. This assumption that our people are somehow different is tired.....Z Z zzz

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Slovacek747
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:44 pm

Everyone needs to get off of WN's back. They are not a government owned operation. This private company can do what they want. If they tell someone to change their shirt, then so be it. They have every right to do what they are doing.

If I came to your house and you didnt like my shirt and asked me to change, I would comply or leave. It's really simple folks. Don't hate on them for trying to have some class. I know most of you don't know that that is nowadays.

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aloha73g
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:44 pm

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 10):
No; Free Speech is Free Speech. Period . Point blank.

Do you think the founders were concerned about the right to wear a t-shirt with a "tee-hee" dirty joke on it??

Period. Dot. Bingo. NO WAY.

They were concerned about political speech and the free exercising of ideas.

Kudos to Southwest & its employees for having the balls to stand up against the pornification of our culture.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:46 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 13):
[a long, out-of-context rehash of obscenity doctrine]

Obscenity is an extremely tough standard to meet. The shirt in question wouldn't even come close, under any obscenity precedent in our history. Wearing the shirt may well be rude, but any attempt by the government to censor it in most public settings would be laughed out of court on First Amendment grounds.

But we're dealing with a private actor (WN) here, although one subject to common carrier restrictions, so it makes no sense to apply the obscenity standard. Southwest can kick the dude off if it wants to. But doesn't it have anything better to worry about?

People who can't tolerate the petty rudeness of others (and wearing this shirt is petty rudeness) without trying to ban things need to grow a thicker skin. We're surrounded by others all the time. They don't always act how we like. That's just life. We're well within our rights to tell them how we feel, but trying to get more and more conduct banned because you feel offended by it is infantile.
 
cgnnrw
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:51 pm

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 5):
Freedom of Speech is for POLITICAL SPEECH. Not funny, sexually sugestive t-shirts.

-Aloha!


I really hope this is a joke. If not please show me the passage in the Constitution where this is found.

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 9):
This assumption that our people are somehow different is tired.....Z Z zzz

Maybe it's just coincidence tha WN is the one airline that seems to be in the news a lot.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12):
Really? Can you walk down any public street with a T-shirt on that says "F&$% YOU" emblazoned on the back without getting arrested? Or how about yelling "Fire" (when there isn't one) in a crowded theater? All of them forms of "Free Speech" and all them forms of speech that will get you thrown into jail.

The US Supreme Court overturned a conviction for a man who was arrested for saying "f*ck you" to a California cop. They said he was using his constitutional right to express his opinion about California law enforcement officers.

Quoting Slider (Reply 13):
Hmmm…check on 1, 2, and 3.

So a WN flight attendent can act as as prosecuting attorney, jury and judge? Save a lot of legal costs. Just go to the airport and ask an airline employee what they think and bingo instant justice for all!

Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
They reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.

Another myth...no they don't. Hmmm...so an airline employee/employees who are members of the KKK can lawfully refuse to allow African-Americans, Hispanics to board the plane? A die-hard bleeding heart liberal can refuse a Christian fundamentalist TV preacher to boad the airplane? I think not!
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seabosdca
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:54 pm

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 16):
They were concerned about political speech and the free exercising of ideas.

So you think you're going to be able to draw a clear line between vulgar speech and the free exercise of ideas...

The classic example of blurring that line is Cohen v. California, where a protester wore a "Fuck the Draft" jacket into a courthouse. Think about it for a second and I'm sure you'll come up with plenty of others.

I'm not saying the guy was expressing any valuable ideas with his t-shirt (although someone might argue he was trying to challenge the societal taboo against masturbation) but you can't go and try to draw lines bisecting freedom of speech. Threats, libel, and slander affect others' rights, so they aren't protected. But the preservation of ideas and expression is vastly more important than preserving Mayberry-like decorum. I strongly think the Founding Fathers would agree with me on that. They were hardly shrinking violets.
 
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mariner
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:57 pm

"Master Baiter"?

Where can I get one of those T shirts?  Smile

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aloha73g
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:17 pm

Quoting Seabosdca (Reply 19):
The classic example of blurring that line is Cohen v. California, where a protester wore a "Fuck the Draft" jacket into a courthouse. Think about it for a second and I'm sure you'll come up with plenty of others.

I'm fine with that. Protesting is one thing, and it is FINE. I respect people who can protest without being vulgar, but to protest is their right, whether or not I respect them, or their views.

I do think a private person, organization, or company has the right to ask someone who is being "offensive" to remove the shirt/sign/button etc. or leave. There is a difference between the government asking him to remove the shirt and Southwest Airlines asking him to remove the shirt....the former being OK while the latter is NOT.

I recall hearing Maya Angelou on Oprah's show saying that if you say "bitch" in her home she kicks you out. Is she tramping of people's 1st Amendment rights? No, she is using hers.

-Aloha!
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redflyer
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:22 pm

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 18):
The US Supreme Court overturned a conviction for a man who was arrested for saying "f*ck you" to a California cop. They said he was using his constitutional right to express his opinion about California law enforcement officers.

Not familiar with the case, but even if they did that would be quite appropriate and more in line with the intent of the 1st Amendment since the speaker was specifically voicing an opinion about a government authority.

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 18):
So a WN flight attendent can act as as prosecuting attorney, jury and judge?

Happens all the time in business. Take for example a bartender (flight attendant?) that refuses to serve a drink to someone that they -- subjectively I might add -- consider inebriated. What about most establishments that won't let anyone come inside unless they are wearing shirts and shoes? The list is endless. Businesses and their employees discriminate all the time. The difference is as long as they don't discriminate in a manner proscribed by law. And for the sake of their bottom line, as long as they don't do it in a manner that most people find offensive resulting in loss of business.

Perhaps this particular incident with WN is overblown, I nevertheless commend them for taking into consideration the potential sensibilities of the other 136 passengers on the plane at the expense of pissing off only one.
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silentbob
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:25 pm

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 10):
No; Free Speech is Free Speech. Period . Point blank.

U.S. Constitution :

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

"or abridging the freedom of speech" .... thats pretty clear.

The government didn't have anything to do with this situations so the first amendment doesn't apply. This is a business transaction between the passenger and the airline and the airline does put a fair number of conditions on the passenger, though most passengers don't know what those conditions are. Everyone seems to think that they know their "rights" but very few know their responsibilities.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12):
Really? Can you walk down any public street with a T-shirt on that says "F&$% YOU" emblazoned on the back without getting arrested? Or how about yelling "Fire" (when there isn't one) in a crowded theater? All of them forms of "Free Speech" and all them forms of speech that will get you thrown into jail.

Actually, you should be permitted to wear the shirt.

Quoting Slider (Reply 13):

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/o002.htm

There are 3 general tests—read on, fair use excerpt:

There is very little that actually qualifies as obscenity. In fact, the shirt in question wouldn't qualify in any of those areas. It's an attempt at humor and/or satire and would alone would invalidate just about any claim against it. Then again, this is not a relevant point in any case as there was no arrest or prosecution of this individual.

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 18):
So a WN flight attendent can act as as prosecuting attorney, jury and judge? Save a lot of legal costs. Just go to the airport and ask an airline employee what they think and bingo instant justice for all!

And now the guy is on death row waiting for the electric chair. Seriously, could you over-react any more? The shirt is not appropriate for an environment that is likely to include children. If I wore a shirt that said "There is no Santa Claus" while traveling during christmas, it would again be legal but not appropriate. There is a subtle distinction that too many people miss.

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 18):
Another myth...no they don't. Hmmm...so an airline employee/employees who are members of the KKK can lawfully refuse to allow African-Americans, Hispanics to board the plane? A die-hard bleeding heart liberal can refuse a Christian fundamentalist TV preacher to boad the airplane? I think not!

Wow, just wow. There is a significant difference between an attempt to enforce a dress code and the things you mention. If you can't see why there is a difference, I'm not sure any explanation (no matter how logical) will help you understand. I will give it a quick shot anyway.

There is no company policy (with any airline I know) that prevents Black or Hispanic passengers on their flights, same goes for any fundamentalist not intent on blowing up or hijacking an airplane. Most airlines do however have policies regarding proper attire for a flight. The flight attendant on this flight simply attempted to enforce the company dress code, nothing more sinister than trying to do her job.

Without some type of dress code, passengers could wear a tank top and a jockstrap on a flight and given the general physical condition of most americans none of us want to see that. There will always be differences of opinion when it comes to where exactly the line is drawn, the important thing is for us not to make those differences into personal attacks or blow the situations out of proportion as the media often loves to do.
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:32 pm

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 9):
"type" of people? What exactly do you mean? I've flown for other carriers, pax are ALL the same, trust me. First Class, Business Class, NO class.....they're everywhere. This assumption that our people are somehow different is tired.....Z Z zzz

Bad choice of words, I will admit. However, my point is that the culture of Southwest employees and customers seems to be alot more carefree and laid-back then that of most legacies. Jokes are part of the normal routine at Southwest, no?

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12):
Who, exactly, are the "people" that they are pissing off?

Perhaps the people they seem to keep giving a hard time about their outfits.

Don't get wrong, I love LUV...they always get to me to work and back without a problem and as a jumpseating crewmember, Im always dressed appropriately. But in this case, especially, they were wrong in my opinion, and they admitted as much by issuing a public apology to the gentleman in question.
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aloha73g
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:32 pm

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 18):
Another myth...no they don't. Hmmm...so an airline employee/employees who are members of the KKK can lawfully refuse to allow African-Americans, Hispanics to board the plane? A die-hard bleeding heart liberal can refuse a Christian fundamentalist TV preacher to boad the airplane? I think not!

"Obscene T-Shirt Wearers" are not a protected class.

Race and Religion are.

In the same way people with Tatoos and Piercings can be refused jobs, housing and service, so can obscene T-Shirt wearers. They are not a protected class.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
slider
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:33 pm

Quoting Seabosdca (Reply 17):
Southwest can kick the dude off if it wants to.

Exactly.

Quoting Seabosdca (Reply 17):
People who can't tolerate the petty rudeness of others (and wearing this shirt is petty rudeness) without trying to ban things need to grow a thicker skin. We're surrounded by others all the time. They don't always act how we like.

I agree with you to an extent--there is no law protecting me from being offended by others. But as a parent, my perspective on this has changed. Not to mention that I've seen the pop culture of my country go over the cliff in the past generation to the point where almost anything goes now.

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 18):
Another myth...

Nope, not a myth. They can refuse service. Freedom of association. They are not obligated to provide their product to someone. A ticket on WN is not a civil right.

Quoting Seabosdca (Reply 19):
The classic example of blurring that line is Cohen v. California, where a protester wore a "Fuck the Draft" jacket into a courthouse.

At the very least, that would be a misdeameanor for disorderly conduct. Especially if it happened in front of a minor child. And wasn't the very gist of this man's protest lost in the delivery?
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:56 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 26):
At the very least, that would be a misdeameanor for disorderly conduct. Especially if it happened in front of a minor child. And wasn't the very gist of this man's protest lost in the delivery?

Read the opinion. Cohen was convicted of disturbing the peace. His conviction was overturned because his conduct constituted speech protected by the First Amendment. Expressing an opinion in a public place, as the Cohen Court recognized, is a sacrosanct right far more important than preserving someone's arbitrary idea of genteel decorum.

And, no, the gist of his protest was not lost in the delivery. People had been civilly protesting the draft for years. They had been roundly ignored or mocked, despite the deep conviction underlying their protests. The point of expressing his opinion in the way and place he did was exactly to gain the attention, and the recognition that the protest was deeply felt, that other methods of protesting had failed to gain.

Finally, if my minor child can't handle seeing the words "F*ck the Draft," I've been remiss as a parent. Kids, like the rest of us, are exposed to unpleasant things. They need to be in order to learn how the world works and how to live in it. The role of a parent is to explain why "F*ck the Draft" is unpleasant, why someone might be saying it even though it's unpleasant, and why it might or might not be the best way to get the point across. Kids' minds are not delicate china creations prone to shattering at the slightest bump. Kids are sharp, fast learners. Given context, explanation, and support, they can handle what society dishes out just as well as the rest of us.

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 23):
The government didn't have anything to do with this situations so the first amendment doesn't apply.

Just to clarify, I want to emphasize that this is right. I think WN's decision to kick the guy off was an asinine overreaction, but I agree totally that they have the right to do it.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 21):
Is she tramping of people's 1st Amendment rights? No, she is using hers.

Just to be clear, she's exercising her property rights, not her First Amendment rights...  Wink
 
hamad
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:21 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12):

my neighbor wore a t-shirt once that said "Queer as f***k" and went out on the street wit it. needlss to say how people were looking at him
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slider
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:24 pm

Quoting Seabosdca (Reply 27):
Finally, if my minor child can't handle seeing the words "F*ck the Draft," I've been remiss as a parent. Kids, like the rest of us, are exposed to unpleasant things. They need to be in order to learn how the world works and how to live in it. The role of a parent is to explain why "F*ck the Draft" is unpleasant, why someone might be saying it even though it's unpleasant, and why it might or might not be the best way to get the point across. Kids' minds are not delicate china creations prone to shattering at the slightest bump. Kids are sharp, fast learners. Given context, explanation, and support, they can handle what society dishes out just as well as the rest of us.

Wow.

I comprehend that kids are quick, many are very smart and some can put things into context. But there is no need to expose them unduly to excessive wanton profanity at an early age.

I'd much rather teach my kids to express themselves, use proper grammar and a critical thought process to make their argument eloquently than to simply drop the F bomb like a knuckle dragging caveman protesting something. To each his own.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:28 pm

Quoting Seabosdca (Reply 27):
Just to be clear, she's exercising her property rights, not her First Amendment rights...

As Southwest was I'm guessing since they own the plane  Wink

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:32 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 29):
I comprehend that kids are quick, many are very smart and some can put things into context. But there is no need to expose them unduly to excessive wanton profanity at an early age.

I wouldn't go around deliberately exposing my kid to profanity either. But preserving the right to express ideas in public is far more important than sheltering a kid from profanity if it happens to occur while the kid is around. And, if it does, then my job as a parent is to help the kid learn from it, just as I would do for anything else unpleasant that might happen.

Such as the idiotic T-shirt that started this thread... although it would probably go over most young kids' heads. "It's about fishing, dude..."  Silly

[Edited 2007-10-05 14:35:37]
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:45 pm

This is not obscene by any stretch of the definition.

I knew a dude named Jack Hoff when I was in High School. And a Master Baiter is simply a description of one's baiting skills. Where is the obscenity? Is it in your mind when reading the terms and associating the sounds to be similar to terminolgy that you might consider obscene?

Sorry buds.....wearing clothes that have print on them that reminds you of obscene words is NOT obscene. Good Lord people. The obscenity is in your collective thought processes....and if I were you I would seriously consider lightening up. Live and let live......
 
sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:49 pm

Where does it end with WN?
If the man wore a shirt that celebrated abortion or choice, or advocated torture, or denied the holocaust, or called for deportation of illegal aliens, what then? Those are political but can incite some heated reactions.

I think the best thing to do is trust the legal judgement of dozens of police and TSA in the airport that these T-shirt wearers pass by before boarding, rather than the legal prowess of WN's FA's.

And the airline did apologize "a spokesman said the airline made a mistake and would apologize to Winiecki. "
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:50 pm

Quoting Md80fanatic (Reply 32):
Sorry buds.....wearing clothes that have print on them that reminds you of obscene words is NOT obscene. Good Lord people. The obscenity is in your collective thought processes....and if I were you I would seriously consider lightening up. Live and let live......

But if you're in Maya Angelou's house or on a Southwest Airlines plane and they ask you to remove it or leave....you have no choice.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
N1120A
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:57 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 4):

First moron, freedom of speech is not absolute.

Yes it is

Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
They reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.

Only sort of. Southwest is a common carrier, which means they are held to a significantly higher standard that your average business. They are held to the same standard as the government when it comes to fundamental rights, like freedom of speech

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 5):
Freedom of Speech is for POLITICAL SPEECH

No, it is all speech.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12):
Can you walk down any public street with a T-shirt on that says "F&$% YOU" emblazoned on the back without getting arrested?

Yes you can.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12):
Or how about yelling "Fire" (when there isn't one) in a crowded theater?

First, that is misquoted. Second, Schenk v. US was overturned by Brandenburg v. Ohio nearly 40 years ago, creating the imminent lawless action test (Schenk itself had modified the bad tendency standard using the clear and present danger test). Basically, the t-shirt would have to incite something very quickly in order to qualify as unprotected speech.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 25):

"Obscene T-Shirt Wearers" are not a protected class.

Yes, they are.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:24 pm

Oh my, here we go again.This is LAUGHABLE. Man, WN continues to find ways to make itself look stupid. It's a shame it keeps on happening to this airline and this airline alone. But you know, they bring it upon themselves, so I really don't feel sorry for the negative PR that they are getting.

WN...here's a hint...get a sense of humor, and lighten up! Whoever thinks THAT shirt is obscene needs to go live in a monestary of something. I mean that. Whoever thinks that shirt is obscene doesn't have a freaking clue as to what obscene is. Sad, sad, sad.
 
Arcrftlvr
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:27 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
freedom of speech is not absolute.

There are only a few circumstances when it is not protected. This isn't one of them.

Quoting N710PS (Reply 11):
Not just because my company policy states it but because I still respect flight that much.

What difference does it make? How does your wardrobe represent your level of respect for flight? If I'm flying from LA to Vegas on a Friday night, I'm not wearing a polo and some khakis. Does this mean I have less respect for flight than you? I don't think so.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 21):
her home she kicks you out. Is

Well, you aren't paying to be in her house. Once you rent that seat, this analogy is no longer 'apples to apples.'

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12):
Can you walk down any public street with a T-shirt on that says "F&$% YOU" emblazoned on the back without getting arrested?

Yes. Yes you can.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12):
Or how about yelling "Fire" (when there isn't one) in a crowded theater? All of them forms of "Free Speech" and all them forms of speech that will get you thrown into jail.

A shirt that says fuck you is very different than yelling 'fire' in a crowded theatre. One form of free speech is protected and the other one isn't. This is a terrible analogy.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 25):
"Obscene T-Shirt Wearers" are not a protected class.

True; One is not obligated to conduct business with them. So, as long as WN refunds their money in full and doesn't withhold any non-refundable monies, then they acted lawfully. Now, where I think WN made their mistake is opening themselves up to these types of debates. In general, it's a bad PR. They're not wrong for doing it, just creating bad PR.
 
aa757first
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:44 pm

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 18):

So a WN flight attendent can act as as prosecuting attorney, jury and judge? Save a lot of legal costs. Just go to the airport and ask an airline employee what they think and bingo instant justice for all!

If someone wears a shirt with a racial slur to a business meeting, can he be fired? If a teacher wears a shirt with a curse word into a private school classroom, can she be fired? If a person asks to be seated at a formal restaurant and they don't meet the dress code, can they be asked to leave?

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 33):

And the airline did apologize "a spokesman said the airline made a mistake and would apologize to Winiecki. "

Because the flight attendant didn't follow Southwest's policy and they don't want more negative publicity about stuff like this. She should have let it pass. Its tacky, especially on a forty year old guy, but this is not the end of the world. All he had to do is turn the shirt inside out for an hour and a half.
 
redflyer
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:09 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12):
Or how about yelling "Fire" (when there isn't one) in a crowded theater?

First, that is misquoted.

Really? What's the misquote?

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 37):
A shirt that says fuck you is very different than yelling 'fire' in a crowded theatre. One form of free speech is protected and the other one isn't. This is a terrible analogy.

Why is that a terrible analogy? It proved my point, which was that free speech is not absolute, in response to Sh0rtybr0wn's comment in Reply 10:

Quote:
No; Free Speech is Free Speech. Period . Point blank.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12):
Can you walk down any public street with a T-shirt on that says "F&$% YOU" emblazoned on the back without getting arrested?

Yes you can.

That's interesting because my brother was pulled over in New Jersey back in February 2003 just before the start of the war. He had written on the dirt on his back windshield "F&%$ Chirac and Bomb Iraq". The New Jersey State Trooper gave him the choice of either wiping the "F" word off the window or getting cited/arrested for lewd behavior. (Or something along those lines. I'll have to ask him what exactly he was threatened with next time I talk with him.)

Now, I'm no attorney but I would think a gratuitious display of vulgarity in public could be criminalized in order to protect the young. Just like pornography, which is a form of free speech, has its limitations on where it can be displayed in order to protect certain members of society. Perhaps someone who is an actual practicing attorney (and not a wannabe) can provide some clarity on this topic before it goes too far off the beaten path.

[Edited 2007-10-05 16:10:02]
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:30 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 26):
Not to mention that I've seen the pop culture of my country go over the cliff in the past generation to the point where almost anything goes now.

Oh please. People have been saying that since the 50s.

Quoting Md80fanatic (Reply 32):
Sorry buds.....wearing clothes that have print on them that reminds you of obscene words is NOT obscene. Good Lord people. The obscenity is in your collective thought processes....and if I were you I would seriously consider lightening up. Live and let live......

You're forgetting about a little thing called intent. The shirt was not an accident, the intent was to deliberately provoke those thoughts.

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 33):
I think the best thing to do is trust the legal judgement of dozens of police and TSA in the airport that these T-shirt wearers pass by before boarding, rather than the legal prowess of WN's FA's.

Here's where we hit the 1st Amendment snafu. Police and TSA are part of the US Government, and as such are prohibited from interfering with the public's right to free speech. Southwest Airlines, being a private entity, has no such rule.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
Only sort of. Southwest is a common carrier, which means they are held to a significantly higher standard that your average business. They are held to the same standard as the government when it comes to fundamental rights, like freedom of speech

Maybe in France, most certainly not in the US. Try reading their contract of carriage, and maybe crack open a little thing called the US Code.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Arcrftlvr
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 39):
Why is that a terrible analogy? It proved my point, which was that free speech is not absolute, in response to Sh0rtybr0wn's comment in Reply 10:

Because a shirt that says fuck you is not the same as yelling fire in a crowded theatre. If I have to explain the difference, then there is no use in discussing this issue any further.

Keep in mind, like I said in the first part of my post, free speech is NOT absolute. But, it is NOT absolute in only a few circumstances, such as yelling fire in a crowded theatre. You need to understand that the first amendment does protect people who wear shirts that say 'Master Baiter.'
 
redflyer
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 41):
Because a shirt that says fuck you is not the same as yelling fire in a crowded theatre.

I know that. But saying F-You has its limitations as well. Don't believe me? Next time you're in traffic court and the judge finished fining you, say "Thank you very much, and go F yourself your honor." Let's see how long it takes you to post bail.

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 41):
Keep in mind, like I said in the first part of my post, free speech is NOT absolute

Again, I know that, too.

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 41):
You need to understand that the first amendment does protect people who wear shirts that say 'Master Baiter.'

And you need to understand that the First Amendment protects people who wear shirts that say "Master Baiter" from infringement by the government. Last I checked, WN was a commercial airline, not a government entity.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
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mariner
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:00 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 40):
Oh please. People have been saying that since the 50s.

My father used to say it in the 50's. Back then, he already thought the world was going to hell in a handbasket. He once complained to the f/a's on a flight because another passenger wasn't wearing a suit and tie.

(Dad: "I'm surprised you allow people on the plane dressed like that.")

My grandfather was even more reactionary - he believed the rot started when they gave women the vote.  Smile

mariner
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johnboy
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:29 am

Although we'll probably never hear it, I'd be interested to know what instructions were passed along down to the frontline employees after the mini-skirt incident, and why they (a single F/A? Gate agent?) felt this guy needed to be singled out.

Obviously WN apologized to him, but i'm wondering if they more or less give free reign to those in direct contact with the public, and then pick up the pieces in the aftermath?

Perhaps more training is called for.
 
N1120A
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:29 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 39):

Really? What's the misquote?

The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic. [...] The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent.

That created the Clear and Present Danger Test. Which was then modified by Brandenberg v. Ohio.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 39):
He had written on the dirt on his back windshield "F&%$ Chirac and Bomb Iraq". The New Jersey State Trooper gave him the choice of either wiping the "F" word off the window or getting cited/arrested for lewd behavior.

And that New Jersey State Trooper violated his Constitutional rights.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 39):
Perhaps someone who is an actual practicing attorney (and not a wannabe)

Gee, I wonder if my boss knows he is paying a "wannabe"?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 40):

Maybe in France, most certainly not in the US. Try reading their contract of carriage, and maybe crack open a little thing called the US Code.

Trust me on this, I know a lot more about the US Code than you do.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
mpdpilot
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:50 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
And it's time to raise the bar on what people wear in this country. For crying out loud.

Thats your opinion and being the free country we live in I don't have to abide by your opinions.

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 23):
There will always be differences of opinion when it comes to where exactly the line is drawn, the important thing is for us not to make those differences into personal attacks or blow the situations out of proportion as the media often loves to do.

The thing about this is that WN needs to draw the line or lighten up. i tend to agree that we should use a generalization as to what is ok but 130 people on an airplane is not a very good sized group to go off of. I think that everyone needs to lighten up. Ok you found his shirt offensive, so don't look at it, and if you do mention it, either be curtious and change it or don't but don't take it personally.

Quoting Slider (Reply 29):
I comprehend that kids are quick, many are very smart and some can put things into context. But there is no need to expose them unduly to excessive wanton profanity at an early age.

if that is your opinion then you should work to protect you kids from places where they could see that. But just because you don't want your child to see the profanity I am wearing is not a reason for me to change.

If this really is southwest's policy then they need to write it down and add it to the contract of carriage. Profanity is an opinion and that opinion changes depending on the airport your in, which really isn't acceptable for a national company. I can wear this shirt in Chicago but not in California. No the airline needs to make a standard.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 40):
You're forgetting about a little thing called intent. The shirt was not an accident, the intent was to deliberately provoke those thoughts.

Since when does it say anywhere that intent has anything to do with it? I have only seen "no profanity" never have I seen "no intent of profanity" America needs to lighten up I think. I mean if you look hard you can find intent in totally harmless statements but unless you are that person saying them intent is just speculation.

I will also add one last thing. Since when does me saying F--- do anything to you. WHO CARES. I said a word that you didn't like, don't be my firend or don't talk to me.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
Arcrftlvr
Posts: 393
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:52 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 42):
Next time you're in traffic court and the judge finished fining you, say "Thank you very much, and go F yourself your honor." Let's see how long it takes you to post bail.

You are absolutely protected from that. However, you are now discussing interpretation. You're one of those slippery slope guys, huh?
 
N1120A
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 47):

You are absolutely protected from that



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 42):
Next time you're in traffic court and the judge finished fining you, say "Thank you very much, and go F yourself your honor." Let's see how long it takes you to post bail.

Being held in contempt of court is a completely different thing. If a court orders you to do something, you do it, and you sort out the details later. In that case, the judge would first warn the person and then impose sanction if they continued the behavior.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Arcrftlvr
Posts: 393
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RE: Clothes Call Dings Southwest Again (T-Shirt)

Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 48):
Being held in contempt of court is a completely different thing.

Thank you! I was going to say that, but I figured if he didn't understand the difference to begin with, it was going to be an uphill battle...

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