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kaitak
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A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:04 pm

Good evening folks,

Here's our 43rd dose of Irish aviation, so hold onto your hats!

A rather disappointing day for Irish aviation, with news that Bmi has decided not to take up the SNN-LHR route and this not long after the govt said that it was looking to ensure SNN had a link to LHR - AND a link to a major European hub; assuming it maintains its "hands off" stance, it's hard to see how that'll happen. I guess no one in the Dept of Transport heard the old saying, "when you're in a hole, stop digging".

I think there's a lot left to run on this yet and you can be sure the Shannon lobby will continue to push this; more anon, I'm sure.

Our 42nd thread saw the start of construction on DUB's Terminal 2 and I think we're going to see a huge amount of change and disruption over the next few years, at the end of which - one hopes - DUB will be a slightly more pleasant place to fly through. Mind you there's already a huge amount of apron work going on, with a parallel taxiway to the old 23/05 now in operation. If anyone has a diagram/plan of DUB with all the various stages and elements of this plan, or even a link to it, that would be very helpful.

So, here we go folks; enjoy!
 
EI787
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:12 pm

Just booked my mid-term break holiday! Off to CPH on 28th October for three nights! It'll be the inaugural flight to CPH (since they stopped after 9/11). Also, I hear that Pier D is due to open on the 28th so fingers crossed my flight will be departing from the new pier!!

Should I expect anything with it being a new route launch?? Champagne at the gate maybe?? Haha! Dream on! Big grin Big grin
 
Eirules
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:31 pm

Quoting EI787 (Reply 1):
Should I expect anything with it being a new route launch?? Champagne at the gate maybe?? Haha! Dream on!

Eh I wouldnt hold my breath if I was you!!

Massive blow for SNN with BD ruing themselves out. If we assume that BA were telling the truth when they said they weren't interested then that still leaves another airline that the SAA were meant to be in talks with. Who?? Perhaps I'm being pessimistic but I just cant see another airline flying to LHR. I have said it before that the timing of all of this is really working against SNN with the sudden upturn in demand for slots at LHR due to open skies.
The way you cut your meat reflects the way you live....
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:58 pm

Quoting EIRules (Reply 2):
Massive blow for SNN with BD ruing themselves out

The question is one of economics.

Does Shannon have enough premium traffic to warrant an airline using (wasting) valuable LHR slots?

From what I can see, the answer is no. If this route was a cash cow for EI, they would never have left. I understand everyone is up in arms in the west, but at this point in time the circumstances don't warrant it. If people need to get to London, they can fly FR to Dublin and then transfer to BA, EI, BD to LHR.

EI are right to have abandoned the route to something more profitable. It's not as though they are raking in the cash - they need to do what works.

To change the topic -

The other day I flew DUB-LGW-DUB (on my way to and from VAR) on BA in Club Europe - and Club Europe was completely full both ways. I wonder if EI leaving oneworld has pushed a lot of pax over to BA. It wouldn't surprise me. Both flights were evening flights and on both there was a full dinner and full bar (including champagne) on both sectors.

Now onto another thing. The Anna Livia lounge in Dublin seems to be run and operated by the DAA. Is this true? It's an absolute whore of a lounge. The place was packed with AF pax, BA pax, IB pax, and so on. The floors were dirty, there were crisps all over the floors and down the seats - it's way to small for what it's being used for, and is really a load of crap. The lounge needs to be expanded desperately. Also, having to use a code to use the toilets is a bit rich as well - they're outside the lounge thanks to the "well thought out" layout.

I had to do a feedback survey online after my BA flight, and I slammed the lounge in no uncertain terms. The EI lounge is head and shoulders better (even if it has PAY internet). EI should grasp some extra revenue and allow other airlines pax into their lounge. BA pax on EI DUB-LHR can use it, but no-one else. A total waste of a decent lounge.

Thoughts?
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
f1eddie
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:04 pm

Quoting EI787 (Reply 1):
Should I expect anything with it being a new route launch?? Champagne at the gate maybe??

Yup you will get red carpet on top of this, and balloons and confetti and the likes. And then to top it all off when you arrive they will play a little anthem over the PA system saying you have landed and how early you are and stuff, a la FR!!!! LOL

Yeah i was gobsmacked about BMI. I was sure they would take it over. I suppose we will start hearing bout this all over again next week on the radio!!! Hopefully KLM or Lufthansa will not succumb to FR's power and try and give SNN some sort of service.
Flown on EI, FR, BMI, TG, PG, FD, JQ, DJ, LA, NZ, SQ, DL, LX, LH
 
BrianDromey
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:04 pm

I have to say Im pretty surprised that BD have decided not to go with SNN. But how long would they have stuck at it for? I'd say summer 2009 when they woud use the slots for US depsrtures, or eastbound long haul services, amybe a bit longer.

I am a bit disappointed to hear it though, as I was planning, at the back of my mind, to fly LBA-LHR-SNN to visit some friends in Limerick. I guess I'll just use the FR  Sad direct service.

Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
 
rineanna
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:16 pm

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 3):
Now onto another thing. The Anna Livia lounge in Dublin seems to be run and operated by the DAA. Is this true? It's an absolute whore of a lounge. The place was packed with AF pax, BA pax, IB pax, and so on. The floors were dirty, there were crisps all over the floors and down the seats - it's way to small for what it's being used for, and is really a load of crap. The lounge needs to be expanded desperately. Also, having to use a code to use the toilets is a bit rich as well - they're outside the lounge thanks to the "well thought out" layout.

Oh sweet Lord. I've never used that lounge, but it sounds like a nightmare and an embarrassment. The toilets situation is a joke.

Quoting F1eddie (Reply 4):
Yeah i was gobsmacked about BMI. I was sure they would take it over. I suppose we will start hearing bout this all over again next week on the radio!!!

Most probably. I know I went off on a quite a few rants myself over the situation, but at this stage of the game it's just time to move on from EI shorthaul at SNN and focus on KLM/WX and the likes and retaining all the services that SNN has. I think the whole situation has highlighted how critical each and every service to SNN is. IMO, I think they should look at significantly expanding the cargo services at the airport. Maybe enter into talks with DHL, TNT, etc and look at developing some sort of freight-forwarding centre. I know Leipzig is to become (already is) a major FF centre and has the advantage of road connections to the rest of continental Europe, but SNN has the runway to accommodate large freighters and this could be an area to look into to reduce the dependency on PAX.
 
f1eddie
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:59 pm

Was just looking on the DAA route maps and they still have not put SFO on it. Its really annoying me now. Yet TPA has been put on the route map. I wondered how this was possible and it turns out its with delta via ATL. According to the DAA website also its the same code for ATL>MCO as it is ATL>TPA. Is this possible. I would assume its not!! Must be a typo on the DAA side or something.
Flown on EI, FR, BMI, TG, PG, FD, JQ, DJ, LA, NZ, SQ, DL, LX, LH
 
kaitak
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:39 am

Cityjet says that while it is possible, even likely, that they will operate a SNN service, the timing is bad for them as their resources are committed and they're in the middle of changing over their fleet. It says it is difficult to see them being ready to launch a service by the time EI pulls out.

Also, it says that things would be made easier if the local lobby group were open to other routes, apart from LHR.

It also emerged that the ACL said it would continue to target EI for a return to SNN, even if bmi agreed to operate to LHR. What a bunch of idiots!

http://www.independent.ie/business/i...us-says-cityjet-chief-1116678.html
 
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shamrock604
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:27 am

Bitterly disappointed about BMI, but it would seem the decision was swung quite recently from what I have been hearing. The use of slots at LHR (the former BMED slots revert back to BA very soon) and the whole Ryanair thing are cited as chief reasons.

I must say i'm still very surprised. Its not often you get a guaranteed market handed to you on a plate.

Having said that its time these atlantic connectivity buffoons realise that LHR is not the "be all and end all" of hubbing in Europe, and it hasnt been for a very long time!

Bring on CDG, AMS or FRA!

Lufthansa might be a safer bet with a FRA route (FR have pulled SNN-HHN) after the murmerings we heard from O'leary about frequency increases on SNN-BVA and a possible SNN-AMS.

Perhaps something Lufty might consider operating with a CRJ or something similar?
 
B747forever
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:31 am

Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 9):
O'leary about frequency increases on SNN-BVA and a possible SNN-AMS

Can FR really hold so low ticket fares if the start to operate to AMS???
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
dstc47
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:19 am

I fail to see why the BMI decision was a surprise, although BM have made some strange decisions in the past, SNN is still a minor backwater, with a weak population profile, even if there are some strong local users. No onward feed to other BM services either. Not a spot to waste a slot.

All the lounges at DUB are pretty weak, the BMI lounge is, by a large measure, the best. The only one to vaguely match the better standards elsewhere, but still a long way from Asia.

The EI lounge offers less and less service over the years.
The golden years of reading the New York Times there are long past ( A concession that cost EI near nothing, since there was capacity to uplift them on the overnight flights). I never tried the massage either. The location in Pier B is mighty handy for Pier A passengers also.

The Anna Livia lounge - well little to be said.

Anyone know the reason for the multiple formation flights over Dublin on Thursday by the Air Corps while the board was down?
 
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shamrock604
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:19 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 10):
Can FR really hold so low ticket fares if the start to operate to AMS???

Quite simply, no. Airport charges at AMS are high, and with the new policy of showing all inclusive fares, this will increase the headline cost. It may be a case though of increasing the higher fare brackets, but retaining low "headline" fares. What is certain though is that the average fare would simply have to rise to compensate for the costs of using Schiphol.

Personally, I cant see it happening. MOL is just trying to keep Cityjet / AF / KLM out of SNN.

Shannon will rue the day it sold it soul to FR: it has lost British Airways, Easyjet, Flybe, Hapag Lloyd express, its Heathrow link and BD has been scared away.

FR may well pack in the pax, but with no-one left to compete with, SNN may well still end up hurting in the pocket.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:28 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 10):
Can FR really hold so low ticket fares if the start to operate to AMS???



Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 12):
Quite simply, no. Airport charges at AMS are high

I guess it doesn't have a base in MAD - where charges are also higher than it would usually pay. Don't forget AMS has its "discount airline" pier.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
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shamrock604
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:44 am

Pe@rson,

Yes I know of the MAD base, but MAD had a lot of empty terminal capacity to fill after it opened T4, and offered discounts to fill it. AMS just doesnt have that kind of capacity to spare, so wont be discounting its charges. The lo-co pier only has 7 gates that are pretty well utilised. AMS will accomodate airlines operational wishes, but it doesnt feel it needs to offer discounts and it has stated this.

Im not for a second saying that FR will start charging 500 euro for a one way to AMS from SNN, but it simply will not be able to charge 0.01 euro and make a profit. Passenger service charge at AMS is about 25 euro, a lot higher than MAD.

The point is that the average fare will have to be higher to make a profit, than for example, SNN-BVA. FR has enough problems with Yields at SNN without running another loss maker designed purely to keep a potential competitor out.

Incidentally, do you know how well the MAD base is doing Pe@rson? I havent heard much about it, although I guess no news is good news!
[Edited 2007-10-06 01:45:01]

[Edited 2007-10-06 01:46:40]
 
Pe@rson
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:08 am

I understand your point, and I obviously agree with your theoretical stance regarding higher usage so less incentive to discount. That, per se, is fine, and is simple supply and demand.

There are, however, exceptions.

MAN was also heavily utilised when FR first expressed an interest to serve it, but FR managed to get an excellent discount – as former MAN and then FR Jeans has clearly stated – based on delivering considerable volume. FR also demanded slots that weren’t really possible. Jeans has stated that MAN didn’t need FR, but it wanted the extra volume. Of course, the discount wasn’t as good as with unused airports – obviously they have even more incentive to discount – but it was clearly sufficiently attractive to entice FR.

Likewise LGW. A very busy airport that is delay-prone and with very few slots during the best periods. Some say that FR often spends an hour on the ground at LGW due to delays. But FR supposedly got a sufficiently attractive deal – again, obviously not as good as with unused airports – that it decided to fly there.

Of course, by serving airports like MAN and LGW FR slightly modified its strategy, with one objective: to increase its presence on flights from Ireland to the UK thereby becoming the number-one airline between Ireland and the UK.

FR frequently offers 1c/1p flights to/from LGW and MAN, although such fares obviously aren’t designed to make a profit but rather to fill seats (ancillary revenue always fundamental).

Hence, it is quite possible than FR could fly SNN-AMS in order to strengthen its position at SNN and thereby ensuring no other airline flies the route. I, however, don’t think SNN-AMS will happen, but it could.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
extspotter
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:16 am

I am back!

I got 2 flights and added 2 more FR aircraft into my flightmemory.com account

I went to VLL from STN on a school trip.

When we got to STN, I was annoyed about finding out about the new boarding system. You probably know about it already but here is something for those of you who don't know. In the past, priority was given to passengers with disabilities and young children, then those who checked in early and had got numbers 1 - 99, finally those with 100 - 189. Now, the system goes that priority goes to people who checked in online, then to those who BOUGHT a priority boarding at the gate for £2 (now thats very FR!) then to everyone else. The thing that got to me though, was that there was a family with 2 very young children (about 1 and 3, I think) behind us (we were nearly the back of the queue anyway) and because they hadn't got a prioirty boarding pass, they had to board even behind us. The flight was 100% full and there was 26 in our group who had taken up the last 2 or 3 empty rows (A, B, C or D, E, F), then were filling up most of everything else (Middle seats and that), so when this family boarded behind us, they had seats which were 20 rows apart. I know I would have been inconvineienced by having to let them board before us, but having to sit a 3 year old child between two starngers is just a bit far. The crew which we had (Italian and rubbish) didn't do anything to help them, or anyone else.

I am happy to report the return journey was much better, even though we were all over different parts of the plane again. The crew was much better, more attentive, and the purser was really really fit.

I wish that FR had a more even level of service you can expect, as after experiencing some of the flights I have, may put people off, but thats just the way of FR.

Alex

P.S. I wonder if as a group, we have flown on the entire fleet of an airline?

For FR, mine are CSB, CSC, CSN, DCE and DHG. I have flown COX, but thats either in South America or is Cans.
AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
 
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shamrock604
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:18 am

Pe@rson,

Yes, thats all understood. Of course you will notice that average fares on LGW and MAN are higher than on much of the network. Of course, that is also supply and demand at work, but it's also a factor of the costs of operation. SNN-AMS would need to have fare levels that were similar to these two to turn sufficient profit.

Yes, you do see 0.01 fares on LGW and MAN, but you also see a hell of a lot of 199 euro fares too! I also understand your point about the ancilliary revenue streams, and the need to "get bums on seats" to earn such revenue. I am very familiar with Ryanair's model having worked with a similar model in a previous life....  Wink

Perhaps my initial post implied that FR would need to charge "legacy fares" to make SNN-AMS work, which of course was not what I meant. Perhaps I chose my words badly with that post.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:36 am

Quoting Dstc47 (Reply 11):
I fail to see why the BMI decision was a surprise, although BM have made some strange decisions in the past, SNN is still a minor backwater, with a weak population profile, even if there are some strong local users. No onward feed to other BM services either. Not a spot to waste a slot.

I would have thought it a surprise considering the airline leaving was doing a good job of filling a 174 seater 4 times a day. Considering BMI waste many of their slots using ERJ's, this would surely have been a massive improvement? Why bother going up against BA, KL and AF to AMS, CDG, BRU etc when you can have a proven market all to yourself?

Despite claiming its a "backwater", it evidently is capable of filling the seats to LHR on a daily basis.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:47 am

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 16):
the purser was really really fit.

Called Bob, wasn't he?  Wink
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 1937
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:18 am

Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 12):
Shannon will rue the day it sold it soul to FR: it has lost British Airways, Easyjet, Flybe, Hapag Lloyd express, its Heathrow link and BD has been scared away.

Indeed. At the time FR launched the SNN base I thought the CAA had made a major faux pas. Shortly afterwords I saw the writing on the wall when FR bullied U2 out of Ireland. U2 were advertising heavily and FR just undercut every fare U2 offered. At a high(er) cost/yield airport like LGW U2 have better options than slugging out a turf war with FR.

Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 14):
Im not for a second saying that FR will start charging 500 euro for a one way to AMS from SNN, but it simply will not be able to charge 0.01 euro and make a profit. Passenger service charge at AMS is about 25 euro, a lot higher than MAD.

They dont make any profit from the 0.01 fares anyway. Its the ancillary revenue and the last minute books ht make FR its money (along with clever tax avoidance and aircraft deals)

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 15):

MAN was also heavily utilised when FR first expressed an interest to serve it, but FR managed to get an excellent discount – as former MAN and then FR Jeans has clearly stated – based on delivering considerable volume. FR also demanded slots that weren’t really possible. Jeans has stated that MAN didn’t need FR, but it wanted the extra volume. Of course, the discount wasn’t as good as with unused airports – obviously they have even more incentive to discount – but it was clearly sufficiently attractive to entice FR.

Likewise LGW. A very busy airport that is delay-prone and with very few slots during the best periods. Some say that FR often spends an hour on the ground at LGW due to delays. But FR supposedly got a sufficiently attractive deal – again, obviously not as good as with unused airports – that it decided to fly there.

OK, if you were sitting in an office at AMS and MOL rang you and said "I want 75% off for one or two daily flights to AMS from SNN, I guarentee 20,000 passengers per year" I think you would be thinking "Ive seen what you did to U2 in Ireland, If you want to come in badly enough you can pay 100% or go to EIN, Im not pissing off KL and Transavia and diluting the connecting traffic they pull from te SNN region via ORK and DUB so you can keep compeditors out of a poorly performing base, furthermore the volume you are proposing is a 0.00004% or so of my yearly traffic and it's not with the hastle Mick, Bye"

Brian.

Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
 
Pe@rson
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:27 am

"OK, if you were sitting in an office at AMS and MOL rang you and said "I want 75% off for one or two daily flights to AMS from SNN, I guarentee 20,000 passengers per year" I think you would be thinking "Ive seen what you did to U2 in Ireland, If you want to come in badly enough you can pay 100% or go to EIN, Im not pissing off KL and Transavia and diluting the connecting traffic they pull from te SNN region via ORK and DUB so you can keep compeditors out of a poorly performing base, furthermore the volume you are proposing is a 0.00004% or so of my yearly traffic and it's not with the hastle Mick, Bye"

LMAO! 20,000 pax with "one or two daily flights" ? LOL!

189 seats x 364 days x 2 = 137,592, and 80% LF = 110,073. So probably about 110,000 pax through AMS if FR operated daily SNN-AMS-SNN. How in Gods name you get 20,000 is beyond me. Can't neither spell nor do maths. No wonder you suggested an airline fly LBA-MAN and LON-NWI.

If FR wanted to add more routes to/from AMS it'd quite easily offer 1m pax through AMS/year. And therein lies the point: if FR were to start SNN-AMS-SNN, it'd be bound to begin more routes to/from AMS at some point in order to gain better deals through higher guaranteed volume. But I said, and still believe, it won't happen.

[Edited 2007-10-06 03:33:19]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
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shamrock604
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:32 am

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 20):
They dont make any profit from the 0.01 fares anyway. Its the ancillary revenue and the last minute books ht make FR its money (along with clever tax avoidance and aircraft deals)

Brian,

Understood. But FR will need to extract higher revenue from AMS than it has been able to thus far from SNN. Hence the "average" fare will need to be higher.

FR suits SNN. ORK can do better. Thats why I simply dont understand why some particular posters on PPrune (TTT springs to mind) get so bitter over the whole FR/SNN deal. You are better off with EI at ORK, and an FR presence of sorts to keep them honest.

The outlying airports and FR service are fine for a huge number of people, but not for everyone.

[Edited 2007-10-06 03:37:53]
 
BrianDromey
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:46 am

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 21):
189 seats x 364 days x 2 = 137,592, and 80% LF = 110,073. So probably about 110,000 pax through AMS if FR operated daily SNN-AMS-SNN. How in Gods name you get 20,000 is beyond me. Can't neither spell nor do maths. No wonder you suggested an airline fly LBA-MAN and LON-NWI.

I just pulled 20,000 out of my head, I did not do any calculation on it, either way its still a tiny percentage of annual traffic at AMS, if you could not be bothered to work out the percentage for that one? Its 0.0002% (or so) of yearly traffic. And at an 80% load factor.....that is seriously ambitious. EI manages about 50% O&D on a 94% full aircraft, from my experience, what hope would FR have from SNN with no KL agreement and a smaller population base?

From AMS point o view its not worth pissing off KLM for. What would AMS gian? AMS needs KL (and AF) on side a lot more than AMS needs FR.

What you choose to neglect is than MAN was not always as busy as it is now, and BA has all but pulled out of MAN. MAN-DUB is a heavy route, and FR were not going to leave it all to EI (or BA, if they were still around, I dont know).

For the last time, it was you suggented the domestic flights thing. My view, as you well know, and I have clearly stated, is that domestic lights are not going to be around forever, which would very much be the case if teh government got their act together and got moving on the high-speed link along the east coast of the UK and linked it to the London airports and the 'chunnel'.

FYI: I cant either spell nor do maths" You have just siad I can do both. Funny. So once again I suggest tht you base any debate on fact and not stoop to lowly personal insults to get your point accross. As I wrote yoeterday when you do so it is you look like the idiot and not I.

Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 22):
Understood. But FR will need to extract higher revenue from AMS than it has been able to thus far from SNN.

I suppose they might be able to do so, but only 25% of SNN-LHR was connecting anyway, so 75% had LON as a final destination. With these figures and the lack of interline with KL I dont really see a stampeed of high yield on SNN-AMS (or CDG, or anywhere else). I could be totally wrong though.

As for ORK can do better...I dont agree at all. One airline dominance at an airport is not at all a agood thing. In years gone by the tyrant was green, but at least he would talk to other carriers, a bit of co-operation, passegers had real options...now the tyrant is Blue, and passengers have no choices, wither fly direct with FR or connect and take your chances and the hastle. I think SNN could have done better if they had struck delas with several airlines for several routes. But this was a government lead idea anyway, no wonder it has worked out so well!

My fear is...what happens to SNN if FR pull out?

Brian.

[Edited 2007-10-06 03:53:34]
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
 
Pe@rson
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 23):
BA has all but pulled out of MAN.

Yeah, so when FR got its deal at MAN BA weren't there.  sarcastic  MAN was a busy airport then - as Jeans has clearly stated - but it still got a favourable deal, even though MAN didn't need FR - as Jeans has clearly stated. Why haven't you mentioned LGW? Always a very busy airport, yet FR got a sufficiently attractive deal - of course, not to unused airport level, but everything's relative - to entice it there. As I have said, FR modified its strategy for flights to/from LGW, MAN, etc, because of its desire to become the number-one carrier from Ireland to the UK, which, for a good while, was the backbone of its overall operation.

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 23):
FYI: I cant either spell nor do maths" You have just siad I can do both.

I actually put NEITHER. Clearly you can't spell correctly, do maths, or read.

[Edited 2007-10-06 03:57:50]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
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shamrock604
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:01 am

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 23):
As for ORK can do better...I dont agree at all. One airline dominance at an airport is not at all a agood thing. In years gone by the tyrant was green, but at least he would talk to other carriers, a bit of co-operation, passegers had real options...now the tyrant is Blue, and passengers have no choices, wither fly direct with FR or connect and take your chances and the hastle. I think SNN could have done better if they had struck delas with several airlines for several routes. But this was a government lead idea anyway, no wonder it has worked out so well!

My fear is...what happens to SNN if FR pull out?

No, of course one airline dominance is not a good thing, but I dont think you suffer from that at ORK. You certainly would if FR ruled the roost! The trick for CAA going forward is to stop any one carrier getting too strong if they are of the same mindset as FR.

I also fear for SNN if FR pull out. FR have delivered a big shot in the arm at SNN, but the SAA should have been far more clever with the discounting so that FR would not be given the ammunition and lower cost base to destroy everyone. Discounts should not have been given for LPL, NRN, EMA, LGW which all led to BA, HLX, BEE and EZY leaving. SAA have no one to blame but themselves.

Before long, SNN will have no proper connectivity left except westbound to the US.

[Edited 2007-10-06 04:08:23]
 
BrianDromey
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:16 am

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 24):
Why haven't you mentioned LGW? Always a very busy airport, yet FR got a sufficiently attractive deal - of course, not to unused airport level, but everything's relative - to entice it there.

I was not aware of any significant discounts at LGW. I dont know. But what I do know is this:

U2 launches LGW - ORK/NOC/SNN, FR keep blabbing on about LGW not being a good idea, too delay prone too expensive.
Next thing FR launch SNN/ORK-LGW.
U2 pull out of SNN, now three times daily from ORK FR smell blood, oump up to 4x daily ORK-LGW.
U2 wave the white flag, despite low fares and heavy marketing, they do not intend to compete with FR offering 0.01c fares and 4x daily
FR never operate 4x daily to LGW, pull down to a sole daily flight.

Now that would suggest FR have not gotten the amazing deals at LGW that you claim they have. BTW, ORK-LGW, the fares are huge. Definately one of teh better performing FR markets with very high load too, yet FR are not increasing capacity there, why?

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 24):
I actually put NEITHER

Indeed you did which is, "you can not neither......" and in both english and maths is a double negitive. Therefore a positive.

Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
 
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shamrock604
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:21 am

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 26):
U2 pull out of SNN, now three times daily from ORK FR smell blood, oump up to 4x daily ORK-LGW.

U2 pulled out of all three airports at the same time. They reduced frequency at SNN first, but didnt pull it until ORK and NOC got pulled as well.

All Irish airports should look very carefully at how FR handled this and learn from it.
 
extspotter
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:31 am

Everyone knows that FR is a bully in the LCC world and MOL enjoys throwing his wieght around. Only an idiot would try and beat FR at their own game. They are just too good at what they do. Because of this, FR benefits, but competition, airports and passengers suffer.
AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
 
BrianDromey
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:35 am

Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 27):
U2 pulled out of all three airports at the same time. They reduced frequency at SNN first, but didnt pull it until ORK and NOC got pulled as well.

Thanks for clarification, I was under the impression that it started out as 2x daily ORK, and once daily SNN and NOC. The only reason I thought that U2 pulled SNN before ORK and NOC was becasue I read that "we remain committed to 4 daily flights into Ireland" or something similar. I also remember the FR website saying "Ryanair rescues stranded easyJet passengers"

Sorry about that.

U2 may have not been an airline I liked, I flew with them once on from AGP via LGW (bloody eirJet) and I thought their A319s were horrible aircraft, very uncomfortable with tiny pitch. The crews were not up to much either, and in fact I found the FR 738s are more comfortable. While the tacky yellow overheads might not be the most sooting interior in the industry, it certainly beats the bright orange ones! All of that having been said they were another option to get to London and that is always a good thing.

Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
 
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shamrock604
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:41 am

Eaxctly Brian, and thats what its all about: options! Now all they have in SNN to London is FR! Ghastly!  Wink
 
Pe@rson
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:41 am

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 26):
Now that would suggest FR have not gotten the amazing deals at LGW that you claim they have.

Again, I put:

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 24):
Always a very busy airport, yet FR got a sufficiently attractive deal - of course, not to unused airport level, but everything's relative - to entice it there.

As I clearly stated, it wouldn't be anywhere near what it'd get a unused airports (or underused airports, for that matter), or whatever, but everything's relative. But it'd nevertheless still be sufficiently attractive to entice it to LGW.

[Edited 2007-10-06 04:43:13]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Pe@rson
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:49 am

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 26):
ORK-LGW, the fares are huge.

For ORK-LGW-ORK incl. all taxes:

For Tues 16th Oct out, Wed 17th back: I can get it for 67.77 EUR
For Sat 17th Nov out, Sun 18th back: I can get it for 77.55 EUR
For Fri 14th Dec out, Sun 16th back: I can get it for 67.77 EUR

Etc, etc.

Evidently there are also some very good fares - even for peak periods.

What about ORK-LGW next Tues and LGW-ORK next Weds? 77.75 EUR, please.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
BrianDromey
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:05 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 32):

Evidently there are also some very good fares - even for peak periods.

I agree, I had a look a little earlier, and I remember historic fares being somewhat higher. (when U2 were still around in 2005 they were 25EUR rtn!) But we need to put it into perspective. Look also at the STN fares, for the same dates and times. Even though the headline price at STN may be "4.99", and the LGW equivelent 1.99 STN still works out about a tenner cheaper. Which suggests that FR are not getting much of a discount at all.

DUB-LGW is another good comparison. (fares for 18oct, rtn 20 oct - LGW-DUB-LGW)

FR Taxes £45.73 (inc 5 for CC bookings - total 107)
BA Taxes £48.20 (Total 137)
EI Taxes £59.70 (inc CC charge)

SO its certainly not a huge discount. Its quite a bit more than EI alright, but about the same as BA. So the evidence would not suggest that FR have gained a discount at LGW, at least in comparison with airlines with a sizable operation there.

Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
 
Pe@rson
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:20 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 33):
the evidence would not suggest that FR have gained a discount at LGW

No airline ever pays the rack rate. Just like no airline ever pays the catalog price for aircraft. And FR are some of the best airline negotiators. Whatever the actual discount is, it is clearly sufficient relatively speaking for FR to fly to/from LGW. Again, FR modified its strategy in order to become the number-one airline from Ireland to the UK and back - so the higher operational costs incurred at LGW wouldn't have been as important as becoming the number-one carrier from Ireland to the UK and back. Otherwise I suspect FR wouldn't have been interested in LGW.

Mr Dromey... do you come from the ORK area? I was in ORK last year. I flew MAN-ORK-MAN with WW. Have you flown WW before?
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
BrianDromey
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:30 pm

Keep shifiting your argument to suit yourself, I honestly dont care at this point, you claimed that FR got massive discounts in LGW to validate your point that AMS will give them too. But that simply is not the case. Clearly AMS and LGW are in a position where extra bodies would be nice, but they dont need those bodies to make the airport viable, and at certain times of the day, they need fewer bodies. There is also a demand for airlines to serve place like LGW and AMS who are willing to have their customers pay more, so why sell the product for half price when someone else will give 80% of asking price?

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 34):
Mr Dromey... do you come from the ORK area? I was in ORK last year. I flew MAN-ORK-MAN with WW. Have you flown WW before?

Yes, I have flown with them many times in fact my next flight is this coming Friday, which will bring my total flights with WW to 12 in the past 18 months.

WW are a very fine airline, although time keeping is not a perticular point of excellence! Their crews are wonderful, and I earn diamond club miles, so I cant really complain, except their prices can be very saucy at times. EI on ORK-MAN are keeping them honest in latter days though.
FYI WW also fly to BHX from ORK, they have also. historically served Cardiff (later operated by Air Wales), London Gatwick (ironically pushed off by U2) and Durham/Tees Valley (untill that base closed).

Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
 
Pe@rson
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:43 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 35):
Keep shifiting your argument to suit yourself, I honestly dont care at this point, you claimed that FR got massive discounts in LGW to validate your point that AMS will give them too.

I have not once mentioned "massive" discounts at LGW or anything of the sort.

I keep repeating precisely the same thing time and time again: that FR would have received sufficient discount - but obviously not comparable to discounts from unused/underused airports, but then everything's relative - for it to be enticed to LGW. And clearly it was willing to pay the fees it negotiated - which would no doubt be among the highest it pays network-wide - because LGW is essential as a part of its Ireland-UK stronghold. But for its modified strategy on Ireland-UK, FR would no doubt have been uninterested in LGW.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
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shamrock604
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:59 pm

Come on now lads. lets all call a truce..... we dont want to upset the mods who have sadly had cause for complaint about these threads before (caused by Poitin usually!!!!!!)  Wink
 
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OA260
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:21 pm

Sitting here in the BMI lounge in T1 LHR. What a nightmare to transfer through. T3 is a total hole , I never want to experience that terminal check in area again until they have completed all the renovations. BAA security is as stupid as ever. I think the job title must require you to be a moron!!! Had a plastic bag (very small) and my small backpack. Had to get a bin liner from Boots put them into it and then got through security. In the rush and stress I forgot I had a can of drink in my bag and they didnt even spot it !!! 330ml!!!! So much for their water tight rules. I have to say if your not using flight connections and have at least 2 hours avoid T1-T3. Its hell!!!! How I long for ZRH or FRA.......

Managed to do some spotting here though. Not too many exciting AC on the ground, maybe its the wrong time of day. SU IL96 was the best followed by BA 747 and QR A340.
 
BestWestern
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:42 pm

Sorry to burst the pearson bubble, but Ryanair dont receive a discount at Gatwick - they pay rack rates, just like easyjet. The airport is basically full, and dont need to discount. I also see some selective history re-writing regarding Manchester and Ryanair. Their deal at MAN has run out, and they threatened to exit the airport, just like they did at BHX and LBA, only to return later, as yield loss is greater than saving flying to EMA or Doncaster.

Easyjet choose LGW as their largest base, as it delivers significantly higher yields than LTN, or STN, and have built up a huge base - their largest. Same story at CDG - they are moving from T3 to T2b - as there are no discounts to be gained from flying from a shed at CDG.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
extspotter
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:43 pm

Its not just BAA who has gaping holes, my friend accidentally took a 500ml bottle of coke through VLL security. AENA in Spain is just as incompitent as BAA.
AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
 
BrianDromey
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:45 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 38):
How I long for ZRH or FRA.......

Awww, poor you, but it could be worse, you could be transiting through DUB, which is a nightmare. "Connection Centre" huh? Bloody hell, DUB does not even have a channel to let you back into the departures lounge without going through security again!

Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
 
kaitak
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:50 pm

Nor does LGW, if you're travelling to/from the Channel Islands and Ireland, you have to go back upstairs and go in again; personally, AMS is my favourite connection airport - by a clear mile - big windows, lots to see, lots of shopping opportunities (if you're so minded); I always end up at the far end of the G pier, so I can watch traffic going to/from the 18/36s.
 
extspotter
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:02 pm

MAN isn't so bad for transiting, its just that if one of the airlines you are travelling on is a charter carrier, you can't use the transfer desks. Plus most charters use T2 at MAN, a long walk from T1 and 3.
AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
 
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OA260
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:04 pm

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 42):
personally, AMS is my favourite connection airport

Yes AMS was a dream , On Thursday I got off the plane and onto the train and was in Rotterdam in 42 mins, The Dutch are so friendly and helpful also.

The BMI lounge is deserted tonight!! Only 5 in it. Nice and peaceful though and nice views of the runway. Saw a overpainted BA - BMED A320 today with BMI on it .
 
Pe@rson
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:06 pm

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 39):
Sorry to burst the pearson bubble, but Ryanair dont receive a discount at Gatwick

Ah, damn. Ah well. I won’t bother contesting it – despite the lack of evidence – because B.W. is generally correct. I would say you’re just saying it because you’re Irish and a member of that club, but I’m not a bad loser - you little &^$£&(*(!!!!  

[Edited 2007-10-06 09:07:47]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
BrianDromey
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:23 pm

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 40):
Its not just BAA who has gaping holes, my friend accidentally took a 500ml bottle of coke through VLL security. AENA in Spain is just as incompitent as BAA.

At ORK I got a deodrant through wiich was 150 ml. Nothing was said. The guys at MAN spotted it tho...which kinda annoyed me(epecially as I though I had checked it was <100ml. So had to shell out for some more Armani Code deodrant, it aint cheap, but at least the bottle was almost empty! If I dint know any better, Id have said it was all a conspiracy for Alpa Airport Shopping to make money!

I would generally agree with EXTSpotter / Kitiak / OA260. AMS is a brilliant airport to transit through. Everything is on one terminal and waliking distances are relatively short (cough, cough DXB). I too found the Dutch to be helpful and friendly, and the KLM crews are great.

MSP aint too bad either, as US airports go. LGA is a dump wich is to be avoided at all costs, IMHO, it's more disgusting, grotty and grimy than DUB.

Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
 
Pe@rson
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:25 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 46):
LGA is a dump wich is to be avoided at all costs, IMHO, it's more disgusting, grotty and grimy than DUB.

What's EWR like? I'll be connecting through there in Nov.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
BrianDromey
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:28 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 47):
What's EWR like? I'll be connecting through there in Nov.

Feck, I ment EWR, I dont know why I said LGA....I must have LGW on the brain.

Maybe if you are with CO or someone else you will be OK, I only used the area NW and DL have. Its not pretty, thats for sure!

Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
 
BestWestern
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RE: A Little Irishness In The Air: 43/07

Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:30 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 35):
I earn diamond club miles

You earn Diamond club miles on WW these days - what a fluccccin joke... just remind me what the service difference between WW and BD is these days...

Quoting OA260 (Reply 44):
The BMI lounge is deserted tonight!!

As it always is... except on friday evenings...

Quoting OA260 (Reply 44):
Saw a overpainted BA - BMED A320 today with BMI on it .

I saw it last week in LHR too, pretty dire overpaint, but done in a hurry I suppose. But BD also have a habit of overpainting and half doing logos.

I also saw the BD 767 in Heathrow last week - again half a logo job.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 45):
despite the lack of evidence

mmmm... and where is your evidence Mr Lawyer?
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
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