Summa767
Topic Author
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Delta Mess-up

Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:04 pm

I am wondering if anybody has had a similar problem to the one I describe below, and what was the outcome:

My brother wanted to travel from London to MDE (Medellín, Colombia). He had enough Skyteam miles to use on KL to NYC (He wanted a short stay in NY anyway)
He booked a separate ticket from JFK to MDE. The operating airline is Avianca, but he booked it on the DL website as DL coded flights to accrue Skyteam useful miles.

He got confirmation from Delta on JFK-MDE-JFK the itinerary, and received a reference number. He even received an email reminder that "it is time to check in" for doing so online (although he did not even read that email until he was in Colombia)

All very well until NY, where he had a time to go and enjoy the city, before getting to JFK terminal 4 at 3 am for an early check in.
AV staff opened the desks at 3.30 am for the 7 am flight. He was the first passenger, but the one that would have the biggest headache: They could see his name, but apparently there was no ticket number for him, no confirmed booking. He was told to go and sort it out with DL who had sold him the ticket. He went to terminal 3 DL sales office and waited till the opened at 4.30 am. They looked, and apparently the payment had not gone through. They would also not sell him another ticket as the flight was "full". My bro had not checked the credit card statement, but not had he got any communication from DL about any payment problems!

With time running out, he just went to AV, who did sell him a ticket for significantly more than his original fare. He was told that there was at least one seat available.

He was pretty fed up to be running around JFK, sleepless and tired. On top of that, having to pay more..

I will write a letter to DL, but I would like to know if anybody else has had a similar problem, and what was the outcome.

I am hoping that DL will at least offer vouchers for another flight to cover the extra expense, even if that won't repair the stress.
 
EddieDude
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RE: Delta Mess-up

Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:32 pm

Sorry to hear that your brother had to go through this ordeal Juan. Sucks, especially because the whole thing cost him more money than he had already budgeted. I think this happens from time to time and is not a problem exclusive to DL or any specific airline. I recall reading a very recent trip report where a flight was booked with miles but the airline that reedemed the miles did not imput some info into the system of the carrier that was operating the flight... as you can imagine (or as your brother knows now), this was a nightmare but in the end, in this particular case, everything turned out alright (as opposed to your bro's trip). In addition to this, I vaguely recall a few other posts (in this section or in the trip report sections) dealing with problems much like your brother's. Personally, I have never had my payment not go through, but I do agree with you that it is extremely unfair with the passenger if the airline never notifies that this situation arose... furthermore, as you put it, how can one imagine his/her payment did not go through when you receive an e-mail confirming the itinerary and an additional e-mail reminder. System glitches no doubt, but quite annoying.
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Summa767
Topic Author
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RE: Delta Mess-up

Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:59 pm

Thanks Ed for your kind words.
I will let you know what answer I get from DL.
At this moment I remain dismayed that such a glitch could happen, but even more so at the lack of attention that my brother got from the airline at JFK. Apparentky he only wished he was dealing with Ryanair -that he has found more useful!And to think that I was rooting for them to fly to my city from ATL...
 
Boston92
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RE: Delta Mess-up

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:07 pm

This has happened to me before, so I always make sure I have a ticket number in hand and a reciept. It is really stupid how they will give you a "confirmation" (but what the hell is it confirming???) number and a seat number and reminder emails, but no actual ticket.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
flynavy
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RE: Delta Mess-up

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:12 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Thread starter):
I will write a letter to DL, but I would like to know if anybody else has had a similar problem, and what was the outcome.

Why, sir, would you write a letter to Delta if YOU weren't the ticketed passenger? I wouldn't expect a voucher for yourself for a screw-up that you had NOTHING to do with. Using your logic, I could write in to Delta, tell them whatever I wanted (i.e. make up some false travel nightmare), and then expect or ASSUME I got money out of it.

Your entire story has oddities in it that raise reg flags in my eyes - one specificially is the fact that he decided to book his JFK-MDE flight on a Delta website for an Avianca flight to accrue Skyteam credit, which is completely unecessary; that's like saying I booked my SVO-NRT flight on the Delta website because I wanted Skyteam credit, when I could have just booked it on Aeroflot's and received the same credit.

C'mon, man - get real. I see right through this crap.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
Boston92
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RE: Delta Mess-up

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:16 pm

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 4):

If it's the same price, I would always book through the airline in which I will be receiving the credit...just to be safe...there is not really a reason.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
nickofatlanta
Posts: 1272
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 1:06 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 4):
Your entire story has oddities in it that raise reg flags in my eyes - one specificially is the fact that he decided to book his JFK-MDE flight on a Delta website for an Avianca flight to accrue Skyteam credit, which is completely unecessary; that's like saying I booked my SVO-NRT flight on the Delta website because I wanted Skyteam credit, when I could have just booked it on Aeroflot's and received the same credit.

Not unnecessary at all as if a Skymiles members wants to accrue Medallion counting miles for an Avianca flight, they need to book it using the DL code-share flight number. Thus, it is completely logical to go to the DL web-site ...
 
flynavy
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RE: Delta Mess-up

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:23 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Thread starter):
to accrue Skyteam useful miles.

Medallion counting miles are not what the author's BROTHER was after.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
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RE: Delta Mess-up

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:28 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Thread starter):
will write a letter to DL, but I would like to know if anybody else has had a similar problem, and what was the outcome



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 4):
Your entire story has oddities in it that raise reg flags in my eyes

I agree 100%. This is a bunch of nonsense.

Next.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
Summa767
Topic Author
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:30 pm

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 4):
Why, sir, would you write a letter to Delta if YOU weren't the ticketed passenger?

My bro has asked me to write it on his behalf as he has an activity packed holiday and won't be back for 3 weeks.
I will be attaching printouts of the DL emails that state confirmation, seat numbers and check in reminder.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 4):
Your entire story has oddities in it that raise reg flags in my eyes - one specificially is the fact that he decided to book his JFK-MDE flight on a Delta website for an Avianca flight to accrue Skyteam credit, which is completely unecessary; that's like saying I booked my SVO-NRT flight on the Delta website because I wanted Skyteam credit, when I could have just booked it on Aeroflot's and received the same credit.

The small difference is that Aeroflot is part of Skyteam, and Avianca is not. He thought it best to book on a Skyteam partner code. I hope that the flags in your eyes get better.
 
Boston92
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Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:56 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:30 pm

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 7):
Medallion counting miles are not what the author's BROTHER was after.

How the hell do you know?
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
flynavy
Posts: 2177
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:31 pm

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 10):
How the hell do you know?

Read his intial post. He said it himself.

NEXT.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
flynavy
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Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:35 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 9):
I hope that the flags in your eyes get better.

There's nothing wrong with my eyes. If your brother was so upset over his travel experience he would take the time to initiate a dialouge with the carrier himself. But hey, good luck getting those vouchers for yourself on behalf of someone else.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
Boston92
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RE: Delta Mess-up

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:36 pm

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 11):
Read his intial post. He said it himself.

NEXT.

He said he wanted Skyteam miles. Seeing as Avianca is not part of the Skyteam...it makes PERFECT sense. I bet he wanted to earn KL miles on the flight. How would he earn KL miles on the flight, if he booked it through Avianca? He could earn KL miles if he booked the same flight through Delta though.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
flynavy
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RE: Delta Mess-up

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:38 pm

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 13):
He said he wanted Skyteam miles. Seeing as Avianca is not part of the Skyteam...it makes PERFECT sense. I bet he wanted to earn KL miles on the flight. How would he earn KL miles on the flight, if he booked it through Avianca? He could earn KL miles if he booked the same flight through Delta though.

He wasn't the fare paying customer.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
EddieDude
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RE: Delta Mess-up

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:46 pm

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 4):
specificially is the fact that he decided to book his JFK-MDE flight on a Delta website for an Avianca flight to accrue Skyteam credit, which is completely unecessary

In addition to the medallion miles, perhaps he wanted the 500 (or so) mile bonus that DL gives SkyMiles members when booking through DL.com
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flynavy
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RE: Delta Mess-up

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:48 pm

This is no different than someone taking a defective product to customer service that they didn't buy, but somehow got ahold of the product's receipt, and expects a refund for a product they didn't buy.

The fact that some of you can't see that is slightly humorous.

[Edited 2007-10-05 16:57:27]
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
Summa767
Topic Author
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RE: Delta Mess-up

Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 12):
There's nothing wrong with my eyes. If your brother was so upset over his travel experience he would take the time to initiate a dialouge with the carrier himself. But hey, good luck getting those vouchers for yourself on behalf of someone else.

He tried having a dialogue with DL at JFK (as I stated at the start, try reading again). But it takes 2 to hold a conversation and Delta staff did not want to know.
 
flynavy
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Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 17):
He tried having a dialogue with DL at JFK (as I stated at the start, try reading again). But it takes 2 to hold a conversation and Delta staff did not want to know.

Did he get their names?

This post is so completely useless without clarification of why you think you are entilted to anything from a company that you didn't buy anything from. What I'm telling you is that the airline isn't sending you a dime - any airline, DL, UA, CO, AS, LH. If your brother writes in, it might be a slightly different outcome - but you don't seem to understand that.

That is, of course, assuming you actually have a brother. And, assuming said brother actually was IN New York at the time of the supposed "mess up."

Otherwise this just seems like another "Bash Delta" thread.

[Edited 2007-10-05 17:03:58]
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
Summa767
Topic Author
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RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 16):
This is no different than someone taking a defective product to customer service that they didn't buy, but somehow got ahold of the product's receipt, and expects a refund for a product they didn't buy.

The fact that some of you can't see that is slightly humorous.

You are clutching straws here. The difference is that he did not "somehow got ahold of the product's receipt", but he was sent a receipt for a service that he agreed with Delta Airlines. The fact that DL did not process the payment is a different matter.
 
EddieDude
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RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting Summa767 (Thread starter):
I am hoping that DL will at least offer vouchers for another flight to cover the extra expense, even if that won't repair the stress.



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 12):
good luck getting those vouchers for yourself on behalf of someone else.

Chris, can you show us where exactly in his post Summa767 says he wants vouchers for himself? The sentence "I am hoping DL will at least offer vouchers for another flight to cover the extra expense..." does not imply Summa767 wants them for himself. I think it is clear to the reader that Summa 767 is writing a letter on behalf of his brother and that the vouchers should be issued to his brother, and not to anyone else.
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Summa767
Topic Author
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RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:15 am

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 18):
Otherwise this just seems like another "Bash Delta" thread

I had not read such threads. For the record, I have been an admirer of DL's expansion overseas, and especially in Latin America. I have been looking forward to their move to LHR too, and had hoped to fly them.

My bro's experience, and the reactions from that side of the Atlantic over his predicament have fallen like a bucket of cold water.
 
mpdpilot
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RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 18):
This post is so completely useless without clarification of why you think you are entilted to anything from a company that you didn't buy anything from. What I'm telling you is that the airline isn't sending you a dime - any airline, DL, UA, CO, AS, LH. If your brother writes in, it might be a slightly different outcome - but you don't seem to understand that.

I am pretty sure he want to get the miles or voucher for his brother not himself he is just writing the letter. that makes sense as well. I am on vacation and I have a brother that knows something about the airlines I would much rather him write it than me. I will also add I think that the response will probably be "your brother needs to contact us and then we can arrange compensation" But I don't see anywhere where he asks from anything he says he is going to write a letter. Sounds perfectly logical to me.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
Boston92
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RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:48 am

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 16):

Stop changing your story. First you called him a liar because his brother booked on Delta.com, but since you found out that it was legit, you are embarassed, and are now bagging on him because you claim that he wants to write a letter to get vouchers for himself, which he never said. Then you make stupid metaphors like:

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 16):
someone taking a defective product to customer service that they didn't buy, but somehow got ahold of the product's receipt, and expects a refund for a product they didn't buy.

He simply wants to write a letter on his brothers behalf. No wrong-doing there.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:50 am

There are alot of pieces of this story but the bottom line is that no company - in any line of business - will provide the products or services that were purchased if the form of payment is faulty. You haven't provided all the details, but the fact that there are 3 countries involved raises the possibility that the card was not acceptable for an itinerary that as far as DL or AV was concerned originated in the US. Also, if the billing address didn't match what was provided by the customer, the charge will be rejected. Even though we live in a global world, money does not move freely around the world.

Neither do contacts... although you say DL never contacted you, were they aware that your contact for a NYC originating itinerary was actually in Europe? A form of payment problem would be something they would contact you by phone for, not by e-mail.

And finally, it is highly likely that DL could not have sold another ticket after the original form of payment was rejected and the space released. Some codeshare arrangements are based on inventory which is returned to the operating carrier within a certain time before departure.

While I'd like to be sympathetic, the elements of this story say that this was a complicated transaction that could and very well would have happened on many airlines - and alot of other companies too.
 
mpdpilot
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Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:44 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:55 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 24):
There are alot of pieces of this story but the bottom line is that no company - in any line of business - will provide the products or services that were purchased if the form of payment is faulty. You haven't provided all the details, but the fact that there are 3 countries involved raises the possibility that the card was not acceptable for an itinerary that as far as DL or AV was concerned originated in the US. Also, if the billing address didn't match what was provided by the customer, the charge will be rejected. Even though we live in a global world, money does not move freely around the world.

Neither do contacts... although you say DL never contacted you, were they aware that your contact for a NYC originating itinerary was actually in Europe? A form of payment problem would be something they would contact you by phone for, not by e-mail.

But he was contacted, saying "Check-in for your flight" and he was told that he was going to fly. Judging from what was said and I don't know the truth there but Delta sold him a ticket and never told him there was a problem and infact even told him that everything was ready to go for the flight all he had to do was check in. Something was mixed up here probably just a clerical error but still some problem did happem.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
EddieDude
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RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:00 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 24):
You haven't provided all the details, but the fact that there are 3 countries involved raises the possibility that the card was not acceptable for an itinerary that as far as DL or AV was concerned originated in the US.

Well, if I am not mistaken, one can pay for a DL ticket at DL's website with a credit card issued by a U.S. bank, a U.K. bank or a Colombian bank, so this might not have been the problem. DL made a big announcement last year that it was now possible to book travel online from Latin American countries and pay using locally issued credit cards. Of course Summa's bro may have had a card from a country not acceptable to DL.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 24):
the elements of this story say that this was a complicated transaction that could and very well would have happened on many airlines

I agree. This could happen on many other carriers. What does not cease to amaze me is that he even got an e-mail reminding him to check-in. Weird!
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Summa767
Topic Author
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 24):
although you say DL never contacted you, were they aware that your contact for a NYC originating itinerary was actually in Europe? A form of payment problem would be something they would contact you by phone for, not by e-mail.

Yes, I have seen DL's emails, and the fact that the address is in the UK is clear, the amount is in British Pounds too.

Even if I go in DL's website now, the booking still appears as "confirmed" with seats numbers and all.

Basically, I can understand that even a world carrier like DL can experience technical glitches, but I would expect more than shrugging of shoulders in dealing with such an occurance.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:49 am

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 25):
But he was contacted, saying "Check-in for your flight" and he was told that he was going to fly.

These are e-mailed notices.... I'm not sure they audit every aspect of an itinerary, including all of the ticketing fields.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 26):
Of course Summa's bro may have had a card from a country not acceptable to DL.

or used a credit card that was issued in the US for a booking that was made in the UK, for instance.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 27):
Yes, I have seen DL's emails, and the fact that the address is in the UK is clear, the amount is in British Pounds too.

Again, I don't know the specifics of what went wrong but there were alot of elements of this story that could have gone wrong.... it somehow doesn't surprise me that it did and the same could well have happened on any other carrier.

Part of the conplexity might have been avoided by booking or reconfirming with a Delta agent. The same principle applies for other situations involving other airlines, even if you have to pay a service charge to do so.

This type of transaction is very rare and not the type that any airline goes after... as such the buyer needs to assume a certain degree of skepticism that all will go well.

How many other industries can you buy a product in one country for delivery in another on a transaction that will be completed in yet a third country?
 
Summa767
Topic Author
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RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:44 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 28):
This type of transaction is very rare and not the type that any airline goes after... as such the buyer needs to assume a certain degree of skepticism that all will go well.

As an international airline, I don't see why Delta they would not go for "this type of transaction". I am baffled that one should be skeptic for using a non-US credit card on an international airline.

Last December I used my credit card on the AV website to book a flight from EZE to BOG, onward to SMR, paying a fare in US dollars with a UK credit card.
No problem at all, and I had no indication whatsoever that the airline did not like or want my transaction.


As to being skeptic, what problem would you expect when a few days before travel you type in your booking number, and it appears as confirmed with a seat allocated?!
Of course, now that this has happened, I will necessarily be skeptic if I were to use the Delta website.


How many other industries can you buy a product in one country for delivery in another on a transaction that will be completed in yet a third country?[

Perhaps not many, but I don't see the complication in this day and age. Even a few years ago I had no problem using a non-US card on Amazon.com (when then, I could find what I wanted on amazon.co.uk) for delivery in Spain.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 28):
These are e-mailed notices.... I'm not sure they audit every aspect of an itinerary, including all of the ticketing fields

Clearly not. But they should.

Moral of the story, there is a difference in expectations as wide as the Atlantic itself.
 
NG1Fan
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:53 pm

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:26 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 26):
What does not cease to amaze me is that he even got an e-mail reminding him to check-in. Weird!

Slightly off-topic: I had a reservation with CX - reservation only, no payment yet, and the return leg was still waitlisted. Still, the Marco Polo portion of the website showed the first flight as my 'itinery', ie flight nr, departure time, arrival time, destination, weather at destination etc. All that for a reservation, recall..

Weird.

NG1Fan
 
maddog888
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:24 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 29):
I am baffled that one should be skeptic for using a non-US credit card on an international airline.

Last December I used my credit card on the AV website to book a flight from EZE to BOG, onward to SMR, paying a fare in US dollars with a UK credit card.
No problem at all, and I had no indication whatsoever that the airline did not like or want my transaction.

I think the problem here is a non-US card on a US website. I go the the USA 3-4 times a year and regularly have problems arranging travel whilst in the US on US websites trying to pay with a UK issued card. I end up having to go to a travel agency and paying face to face as even the telephone booking lines aren't allowed to take the cards. It seem to be a USA specific problem as in other countries there's no hitches.

just my 2c worth.

Maddog
 
NW747-400
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 1999 4:42 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:37 pm

I'm sort of curious as to how your brother received a notification to check-in online for an international flight. International flights require airport check-in because the traveler's passport must be verified prior to receiving a boarding pass.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:52 pm

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 3):
It is really stupid how they will give you a "confirmation" (but what the hell is it confirming???) number and a seat number and reminder emails, but no actual ticket.

The "confirmation" is the confirmation that space has been booked and is held with confirmed status. This does not mean that the booking has been paid for and/or ticketed. These are seperate transactions. It is unusual however that an airline website would post a confirmation if the payment for the ticket failed - this should normally void the whole transaction, including the booking.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 28):
These are e-mailed notices.... I'm not sure they audit every aspect of an itinerary, including all of the ticketing fields.

For those types of automated check-in notifications, you're right, they don't check anything except the fact that you're booked - which is kind of dumb really. What they should be doing is sending you out a notification that your booking is not yet ticketed and will be subject to cancellation (which it should be if DL follow normal revenue integrity procedures).

Quoting NG1Fan (Reply 30):
Still, the Marco Polo portion of the website showed the first flight as my 'itinery', ie flight nr, departure time, arrival time, destination, weather at destination etc.

A waitlisted segment still has a flight number, routing etc - just the booking status is "Waitlisted" (HL) rather than "Confirmed" (HK).

Quoting NW747-400 (Reply 32):
International flights require airport check-in because the traveler's passport must be verified prior to receiving a boarding pass.

Not true - most airlines will let you check in online for international flights, they check your passport at the gate usually.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:01 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Thread starter):
He booked a separate ticket from JFK to MDE. The operating airline is Avianca, but he booked it on the DL website as DL coded flights to accrue Skyteam useful miles.

Code-share fraud strikes again!
 
caspritz78
Posts: 229
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:51 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:07 pm

Quoting Maddog888 (Reply 31):
I think the problem here is a non-US card on a US website. I go the the USA 3-4 times a year and regularly have problems arranging travel whilst in the US on US websites trying to pay with a UK issued card.

That can really happen but every good online booking system will give you an error message when checking the credit card. Credit card information are checked automatically and instantly. They even cross check if the address you put in fits with the address that is registered with the credit card company. So it is really necessary to make sure that you put the right address in your billing information.

So if the credit card transaction doesn't go through you are not able to make the booking. At least at a good website and I know that Delta.com is a good website. I just booked a flight there and I mixed up my credit card number and I got an error message.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:11 pm

Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 35):
even cross check if the address you put in fits with the address that is registered with the credit card company.

No they don't - they just check that the billing address is a US address, if they check at all. I used to just give my brother's address in the US as my billing address, and it worked every time. But nowadays most airline sites can (or should be able to) accept international cards no problem.

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 34):
Code-share fraud strikes again!

How is it fraud ? DL are allowed to sell the flight - he booked the flight and attempted to make payment. The fact that DL's website is too crap to be able to cope with a foreign card doesn't make the transaction illegal.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:58 pm

Quoting Maddog888 (Reply 31):
I think the problem here is a non-US card on a US website.

Airlines all over the world regularly sell tickets in other countries but they determine where you are based on the selection you make as to what country you are in... even though the WWW is not bound by national boundaries, bank agreements are and the only way a customer can be properly directed to the correct "partitions" of a carrier's reservations system is for the customer to acknowledge where he is. Travel agents and airline agents are partitioned to the correct part of the res system by the location of the terminal the agent is using. Further, not every country allows US based airlines to sell their seats over the web. Companies must have a permit to sell tickets in each country they serve.

The issue is also not that a US based card cannot be used overseas as that is regularly done all the time or vice versa.

I'm not saying this was an issue for this customer but the reality is that transactions done over the web must be handled in a way that ensures the airline sells its seats in keeping with its credit card and sales permits.

There was alot that could have gone wrong with this transaction and all it takes is one thing.

The issue is not delta related but rather the complexities of how global business works.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 36):
No they don't - they just check that the billing address is a US address,

every US network airline certainly does do billing address verification. Not doing it would cost them uch higher credit card fees. More and more merchants and now asking for the zip code of the billing address even for in person transactions. It's all part of the effort to reduce credit card fraud which reduces the amount of fees merchants have to pay to the credit cards.
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:03 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 36):
How is it fraud ? DL are allowed to sell the flight - he booked the flight and attempted to make payment. The fact that DL's website is too crap to be able to cope with a foreign card doesn't make the transaction illegal.

Legal, unfortunately yes. Fraudulent nonetheless; regardless of "operated by Avianca" disclosures, to put a DL flight numbers on a flight itinerary that is in all respects from beginning to end operated by AV is fraud. Or, if you prefer, I will take a cue from the illustrious Robert Crandall who once stated that "codeshares are deceptive" and change the terminology from codeshare fraud to codeshare deception.

I can only wish that all who defend the nonsense that is codeshare could spend a day on the job with me to become enlightened to the ugly -- and inexcusable --customer disservice scenarios created by codeshare fraud (or deception if you prefer).

Even if the booking had been made directly with AV or a travel agent and failed to be ticketed (with an AV-validated ticket number) due to credit card issues, the customer for sure would not have been "ping-ponged" between AV and DL as he was. Absurd as it is considering the fact that DL had nothing to do with the flights, ticketing issues were entirely within DL's control and responsibility. Which is why AV had the reservation but would not be aware that a valid ticket did not exist until check-in failed for this reason. It is also much more likely that AV would have taken a greater interest in promptly resolving the credit card issue and ensuring that a valid ticket was issued in a timely manner had the booking been directly with the operating carrier.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:16 pm

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 38):
Legal, unfortunately yes. Fraudulent nonetheless; regardless of "operated by Avianca" disclosures, to put a DL flight numbers on a flight itinerary that is in all respects from beginning to end operated by AV is fraud. Or, if you prefer, I will take a cue from the illustrious Robert Crandall who once stated that "codeshares are deceptive" and change the terminology from codeshare fraud to codeshare deception

I'm not arguing with you on that score - codeshare is an outdated and useless concept that wilfully decieves the passenger into thinking they are buying one product when they will in fact receive something entirely different. The whole practise should have been outlawed by consumer protection regulations years ago on the grounds that it is deceptive. It creates confusion regarding who is responsible for what aspect of service delivery to the passenger, and most older res/inventory systems still struggle to communicate the necessary information between partners correctly and quickly.

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 38):
Which is why AV had the reservation but would not be aware that a valid ticket did not exist until check-in failed for this reason.

I'm not sure if DL has block-space or free-flow codeshare with AV. In the case of blockspace, the first AV hears of the passenger is 24-48 hours prior to departure, with info sent direct to the departure control system that would include a ticket number (if a ticket had been issued). If it is a free-flow codeshare arrangment, DL as marketing carrier inform AV as operating carrier at the time the booking is made, and should send ticket numbers at the time the ticket is issued. However AV might not be doing revenue integrity/ticket number checks on DL pax, as this is DL's responsibility.

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 38):
It is also much more likely that AV would have taken a greater interest in promptly resolving the credit card issue and ensuring that a valid ticket was issued in a timely manner had the booking been directly with the operating carrier.

The ticketing carrier is responsible for ensuring payment is made correctly, for all tickets whether they be codeshare or interline. Even if the passenger had booked an AV prime flight via DL, the exact same situation could have arisen, with the exception that AV should be checking that ticket numbers are present in the booking, and cancelling the space if the ticket number is not recieved.

Short answer - no matter who you book with, always check with the OPERATING CARRIER 72 hours prior to departure that

a) they have your booking
b) the booking is confirmed
c) they have a ticket number
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:59 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 39):
codeshare is an outdated and useless concept that wilfully decieves the passenger into thinking they are buying one product when they will in fact receive something entirely different.

 checkmark  Although I would argue that codeshares were a legalized scam from day one, meaning that, technically, it cannot be outdated since a new concept, bad as it may be, cannot be outdated from the first day it begins. Smile

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 39):
The whole practise should have been outlawed by consumer protection regulations years ago on the grounds that it is deceptive.

 checkmark  The fact that codeshares were not banned and subsequently allowed to proliferate out-of-control was IMHO a signal to airlines, at least in the U.S., that they would not in any way be ultimately accountable for acceptable customer service. For evidence, look what's happened in all areas of customer "service" with the U.S. legacy airlines since they were given the green light to practice codeshare deception to say nothing of the bait-and-switch marketing and pricing shenanigans that have been allowed with impunity.

The disservices of our codeshare "partners" and the likes of Expedia and Travelocity as well as the hopelessly unwieldy nature of codeshares have wearied and largely demoralized our customer service staff by the black eyes that they are allowed (by management) to regularly inflict our reputation for customer service that is (or was?) widely considered to be superior to most of the of the U.S. airlines and certainly the best among the legacies. In reactionary fashion, management once asked for suggestions on how to make the codeshare experience "more seamless" for our customers. There is one way and only one: dump codeshare altogether! Interline electronic ticketing works acceptably well.*

Another airline posing as our airline by putting their flight number on our flight and vice versa (codeshare) is inherently a sure recipe for multiplied customer disservice and dissatisfaction on a never-endig basis because....

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 39):
It creates confusion regarding who is responsible for what aspect of service delivery to the passenger, and most older res/inventory systems still struggle to communicate the necessary information between partners correctly and quickly.

 checkmark  Plus countless other details that put the hapless, disserved customer in the middle and all-too-often makes them feel like a proverbial ping-pong ball as they are jerked around between one airline and another as happened in the account of the chap who was bounced between AV and DL, even though DL had absolutely nothing to with the flights operated entirely by another carrier.

*provided that at least one segment of the ticket is operated by the ticketing carrier and the carrier operating international segments, if any, is also the ticketing carrier -- and agents involved in the ticketing process refrain from being lazy and/or inattentive and/or careless.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 2151
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:21 pm

Quoting Maddog888 (Reply 31):
I think the problem here is a non-US card on a US website. I go the the USA 3-4 times a year and regularly have problems arranging travel whilst in the US on US websites trying to pay with a UK issued card. I end up having to go to a travel agency and paying face to face as even the telephone booking lines aren't allowed to take the cards. It seem to be a USA specific problem as in other countries there's no hitches.

just my 2c worth.

Maddog

You've obviously never tried to book a domestic flight in Brazil or Russia with a foreign CC. I can tell you that it is a complete PITA. In fact, in Brazil it was impossible. I just had to wait until I got there.
 
Reggaebird
Posts: 886
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting Maddog888 (Reply 31):
I think the problem here is a non-US card on a US website. I go the the USA 3-4 times a year and regularly have problems arranging travel whilst in the US on US websites trying to pay with a UK issued card. I end up having to go to a travel agency and paying face to face as even the telephone booking lines aren't allowed to take the cards. It seem to be a USA specific problem as in other countries there's no hitches.

just my 2c worth.

Maddog

Definitely not a USA specific problem. Try using a USA-issued credit card online to pay your British Telecom phone bill for your apartment in the UK or try using a USA-issued credit card online to pay for a Dell computer in Canada. You will find that this is a no-go.
 
Reggaebird
Posts: 886
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:18 pm

I think that we are missing something obvious here. It is the responsibility of the passenger to ensure that all documents (tickets, passports, visas) are in order and without reproach prior to traveling. Though we are in the age of the e-ticket, passengers are still, theoretically, required to carry a full printout of their passenger receipt when traveling. If the traveler in this case had tried to print his passenger receipts before leaving the UK, he would have realized that there was a problem with the Delta ticket from JFK-MDE. Delta's attempts to ease/simplify the travel experience for most should not be held responsible for a passenger's lack of preparedness.

I also think that there might be a sensible reason why the ticket was not officially issued. When securing a FF award ticket on a Delta partner (KL in this case), one cannot book the trip on the web site. The traveler probably reserved the FF trip and the JFK-MDE trip via a reservations agent, which would create the itineraries with associated reservation numbers (which some call confirmation numbers). Then, when the passenger authorized Delta to charge his card for the tickets, he probably had enough on the card to pay the charges for the FF trip (generally just the taxes) but probably did not have enough on the card to pay for the other ticket. An alternate explanation could be that the Delta Partner Desk processed the FF ticket but the passenger needed to complete the non-FF ticket payment process through a regular agent and did not do so.

Nonetheless my initial point still stands, it is the passenger's responsibility to make sure that all travel documents are in order before traveling. If I was Delta, I would send the standard letter of apology for any inconvenience but that would be it. Unfortunately, that may mean that the passenger's brother won't fly to LHR with Delta next year but why would he want to fly with them anyway after such a "terrible experience"?  sarcastic 

Reggaebird
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6169
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:37 pm

Quoting NW747-400 (Reply 32):
I'm sort of curious as to how your brother received a notification to check-in online for an international flight. International flights require airport check-in because the traveler's passport must be verified prior to receiving a boarding pass.

I am not surpirsed. I have been able to check-in online for a BA MEX-LHR flight without any problem. At the airport, I just had to drop my bag at a dedicated bag-drop counter, and the agent who received my bags also looked at my passport. With CO, I have also been able to sort of check in online. When I say "sort of", I mean that, near the end of the process, I got a screen saying that the operation could not be completed. I called CO's telephone line and they told me I had checked in, but that the screen in question purported to mean that I still needed to have someone at the aiport look at my passport upon dropping my bag (it was a MEX-IAH or MEX-EWR flight).
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
Summa767
Topic Author
Posts: 1751
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:49 pm

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 43):
Though we are in the age of the e-ticket, passengers are still, theoretically, required to carry a full printout of their passenger receipt when traveling.

Which he had! Or if it was not, it was extremely misleading: It had an alphanumeric reference number, the itinerary, seat numbers and fare paid! It also stated that it was "confirmed"
On top of that, there was an email reminder about online check-in.

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 43):
but why would he want to fly with them anyway after such a "terrible experience"?

I am confident that DL customer service department, as professionals in a reputable airline will see this. They should welcome the feedback to check what went wrong and what can be done to correct it going forward.

My brother does not seem so hopeful, but I will wait for a reply from DL. If it is not forthcoming, he will forward the correspondance to W radio. A widely listened Colombian radio station in the country, and by hispanics across the americas and Spain that relish dealing with unanswered complaints. They exposed Air Madrid and unreliability by Air Comet, to the point that the latter had to go on a damage repair exercise, when their numbers plummeted.
 
Reggaebird
Posts: 886
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sun Oct 07, 2007 12:32 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 45):
Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 43):
Though we are in the age of the e-ticket, passengers are still, theoretically, required to carry a full printout of their passenger receipt when traveling.

Which he had! Or if it was not, it was extremely misleading: It had an alphanumeric reference number, the itinerary, seat numbers and fare paid! It also stated that it was "confirmed"
On top of that, there was an email reminder about online check-in.

Ah!!! Finally, we get to the crux of the issue. When you said, "Which he had! Or if it was not, it was extremely misleading", you confirmed my original suspicion that your brother had an "itinerary" and not a "passenger receipt". As a Delta Platinum Medallion member, I am very familiar with the itinerary one receives before paying for a ticket. It has all of the information you mentioned but it clearly says itinerary. Your issue is that Delta provided something that was "misleading" to a person who did not take the time to confirm that his arrangements were completed and in order. You may be right but it still does not negate the fact that your brother did not print his "passenger receipt" and take it with him to the USA.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 45):
If it is not forthcoming, he will forward the correspondance to W radio. A widely listened Colombian radio station in the country, and by hispanics across the americas and Spain that relish dealing with unanswered complaints. They exposed Air Madrid and unreliability by Air Comet, to the point that the latter had to go on a damage repair exercise, when their numbers plummeted.

Well, with all due respect, Delta Airlines is not Air Madrid or Air Comet ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Madrid ). From what I can see, Delta has done nothing wrong here. If W radio wants to waste its listeners' valuable time on trying to punish Delta over what, in my opinion, is a passenger's own mistake, the station should be the one to see its customer numbers plummet. However, I think W radio would probably pass on this fight.

Maybe you should recommend that your brother fly Avianca, other Summa carriers or Iberia from now on. It's possible that those carriers might be able to communicate with him more clearly.

Reggaebird
 
Summa767
Topic Author
Posts: 1751
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:31 am

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 46):
As a Delta Platinum Medallion member, I am very familiar with the itinerary one receives before paying for a ticket

I just read the correspondance emails again. The subject heading reads: Your confirmation and itinerary.
It did not say anything about waiting for a "passenger receipt" before booking was complete. It had a link to online check in. So it anything else was required it did not mention it. Thank you for informing that this is the case, as Delta airlines did not bother.
Again, as an rapidly expanding carrier internationally, to Europe, Africa, LatAm and the Middle East, Delta will increasingly be dealing with bookings from people who will be flying them for the first time, ( In Europe, in my experinece the confirmation and receipt are the same thing, so clearer communications will only be good for all involved.

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 46):
Well, with all due respect, Delta Airlines is not Air Madrid or Air Comet

Please read what I wrote. I stated exactly that, with my confidence that it will be sorted before it gets to the radio waves.

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 46):
Maybe you should recommend that your brother fly Avianca, other Summa carriers or Iberia from now on. It's possible that those carriers might be able to communicate with him more clearly.

Whereas Delta will never be a first choice, and has never actually flown them, I still welcome their expansion, and can only hope that their attitude in listening to feedback is different from yours. To recommed that people expecting clear communication do not fly DL is just bizzare. They are banking their success on their international presence and have every chance of making it. An efficient booking system being an important tool.
 
cyberual
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 4:06 pm

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:30 am

Like other posters stated, i think your brother received an itin only email. Do you see a ticket number anywhere like 006 XXXXXXXXXX? If it didn't ticket, the agent at the airport should have honored the fare and assist his brother. Or it could be that the computer caught up with the failed payment and canceled the pnr after the email has been sent. Thus, leaving the Delta airport agent unable to restore the original booking.
 
Reggaebird
Posts: 886
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Delta Mess-up

Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:53 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 47):
I just read the correspondance emails again. The subject heading reads: Your confirmation and itinerary.
It did not say anything about waiting for a "passenger receipt" before booking was complete.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________
UNPAID RESERVATION EMAILS HAVE A SUBJECT OF "DL ITINERARY" AND SAY THE FOLLOWING:
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
Your Itinerary

Thank you for choosing Delta. This information is a copy of your itinerary and not a receipt.

If you are holding this itinerary, be sure to complete your purchase before the deadline by calling 800-221-1212.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flight Information

DELTA CONFIRMATION #: XXXXXX


______________________________________________________________________________________________
PAID RESERVATION EMAILS HAVE A DIFFERENT SUBJECT THAT DOES NOT MENTION THE WORD "ITINERARY" AND SAY THE FOLLOWING:
______________________________________________________________________________________________
Your Receipt and Itinerary
PASSENGER'S NAME
PASSENGER'S ADDRESS HERE

Thank you for choosing Delta. We encourage you to review this information before your trip. If you need to contact Delta or check on your flight information, go to delta.com, call 800-221-1212 or call the number on the back of your SkyMiles® card.

Now, managing your travel plans just got easier. You can exchange, reissue and refund electronic tickets at delta.com. Take control and make changes to your itineraries at delta.com/itineraries.

(further on one sees the confirmation number as well)
______________________________________________________________________________________________

It's very interesting that you claim that the language in your brother's e-mail is so different from every e-mail that I have saved from Delta regarding my paid reservations, my girlfriend's paid reservations, as well as paid reservations for numerous relatives and friends. Notice that both e-mails contain a reference to the "receipt". One explanation continues to be that your brother received confirmation and check-in information for the frequent flier ticket but not for the purchased JFK-MDE flights. I don't believe that but it saves face for you in this increasingly shaky story.

However...............I will go back to what I suggested initially, your brother did not take the time to prepare himself properly for his trip and he is, at least, partially responsible for his predicament. Hopefully Delta airlines will not have to close down when they don't send him hundreds in vouchers and you guys call down the wrath of W radio on them.  Embarrassment  Yeah sure  checkeredflag 

Reggaebird

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