Pe@rson
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Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:32 pm

Does YIP have the capability of having a scheduled commerical airline (using 737/320-sized machines) based there and operated to/from there? It has 5 runways; only has 330 or so daily movements, the vast majority GA; has what looks like a sizeable terminal as per its airport diagram; and is only 33 miles from central Detroit and is convenient for a good amount of the Detroit metro area. What about ramp/taxiway/terminal infrastructure? What about licensing? What about emergency service provisions? I'd appreciate any answers. Thanks.
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kstatepilot
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:57 pm

YIP is used mostly for cargo operators. There are quite a few bigger aircraft there, including an A300.

USA Jet has a base in YIP. Kalitta has a sizeable operation there. There are some smaller operators that have bases there, Air Cargo Carriers and Alliance Aviation come to mind real quick.
 
RJFlyer0891
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:01 pm

XE operates charters into YIP about once a month on 145XR's
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:32 pm

Yeah, I realise YIP is mainly GA and cargo. But does it have the capability of becoming a base for a LC pax scheduled airline?
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DeltaAVL
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:01 pm

Sounds like a possible Skybus candidate...
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Pe@rson
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:23 pm

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 4):
Sounds like a possible Skybus candidate...

That kinda thing. But thinking more about a base rather than just another destination.

Of course, PTK is another candidate - so long as it the capability - with its convenient location to central Detroit (37mi) and metro. Detroit, with the added advantage of being convenient for both Lansing (63mi) and Flint (35mi).
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flyf15
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:00 pm

I've heard YIP might be (or already is?) planning on extending one of its runways. Looking at the diagram of it... it is kind of a strange looking airport. Not really much of taxiways anywhere... just a lot of runways jumbled up.

Although, I can't see why anyone would choose to use YIP or PTK for service. It seems like normally these outlying airports are chosen by LCCs when the main airport is expensive, overburdened, and full of delays... as far as I know, DTW is not like that.

Then again, I remember that ProAir was based at DET (which, by looking at satellite pics, has a dormant terminal with jetbridges and all). Other airlines have served DET in the past too.
 
RIXrat
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:05 pm

I may be showing my ignorance here, but regarding YIP, isn't the "Y" a designation for a Canadian airport?
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:11 pm

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 6):
Although, I can't see why anyone would choose to use YIP or PTK for service. It seems like normally these outlying airports are chosen by LCCs when the main airport is expensive, overburdened, and full of delays... as far as I know, DTW is not like that.

I suspect DTW is more delay-prone than either YIP or PTK would be. I suspect DTW wouldn't offer massive incentives, e.g. major discounts if not entirely free, marketing support, training support, for airlines to fly there: it wouldn't need to. To gain cost advantage over rivals, you'd need to get major cost savings, and I suspect DTW wouldn't enable that. Lots of IFs there: we don't know what DTW would offer, wouldn't offer, could provide, etc.

Anyway, DET is one I forgot.
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isitsafenow
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:51 pm

UA and EA used to fly DC 8's and TW flew 707's out of YIP before June of 66. For more heavy metal, Kalitta flew stretch 8's and 747's from YIP.

B 25's were built there during WW2..

The runway configuration goes back to the 30's.

Runways at DET are only just over 6000 ft while the YIP longest is just over 7000.

I never thought about Skybus at YIP.....could be a possibility. There's quite a population base in Western Wayne county
and YIP is very close to Ann Arbor and U of M and it 40,000 plus enrollment.

I almost forgot Eastern Michigan U at Yipsi...there's another 20,000 plus student count.

safe

[Edited 2007-10-07 13:55:33]
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DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:31 pm

I may be showing my ignorance here, but regarding YIP, isn't the "Y" a designation for a Canadian airport?

YIP is near Ypsilanti, Michigan, home of Eastern Michigan University. That's probably it--Detroit-area experts can confirm or correct.

Jim
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Vctony
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:42 pm

YIP does indeed stand for Ypsilanti. Although the city's name does not have the "i" that the airport does. Both of my parents were graduates of Eastern Michigan.

Additionally, YIP served as the original location for Avis Rent-A-Car.

[Edited 2007-10-07 16:43:35]
 
tb727
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:49 pm

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 9):
Runways at DET are only just over 6000 ft while the YIP longest is just over 7000.

DET is only 5010' IIRC without looking. I don't even like going in there wet in a Lear or Falcon yet I can't believe ProAir used to go in there in 737's. I have also heard the SWA flew in there before moving to DTW. That is not a very nice neighborhood either.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 10):
YIP is near Ypsilanti, Michigan, home of Eastern Michigan University. That's probably it--Detroit-area experts can confirm or correct.

That is correct, I spent 5 fine years there getting my degree in Aviation Management, we even have a flight school now at YIP. Go Eagles! And if you can't figure it out, Ypsilanti is pronounced "ip-si-lan-tee"

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 6):
I've heard YIP might be (or already is?) planning on extending one of its runways. Looking at the diagram of it... it is kind of a strange looking airport. Not really much of taxiways anywhere... just a lot of runways jumbled up.

They are working up a storm on the runways right now, they cleaned up intersections and runway ends some and added a taxiway(G) so they could do this summers work last year. This year they shortened 23R/5L about 5-600', 23L/5R is being worked on now but not being extended although it will be the main landing runway with the ILS both ways. 27R/9L is going to be extended to 9000' probably next year and 27L/9R will be no more and become a taxiway or be developed. This is all mostly just the buzz around the airport but my sources are pretty solid. I just wish they'd hurry up with 5R/23L, the ILS is out right now until the end of the month and if it gets foggy or we get low ceilings, we can't get in and have to go to DTW.

All in all, it's an airport with great history and great ATC guys in the Tower 24/7. I don't really want an LCC here though, leave it to us Freight Dogs and student pilots.
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Vctony
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:50 pm

I doubt that there will be much in terms of commercial airline service at YIP. The airport is owned and operated by the Wayne County Airport Authority, which also owns and operated DTW. With the billions of dollars funneled into DTW (the new terminals, runway, etc.) I highly doubt that the airport authority would encourage scheduled passenger operations at an airport 14 miles away, not to mention the expense in renovating the terminal there.
 
flynte
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:55 pm

Although I don't know all of the details, there is an agreement that prohibits commercial service from YIP. I don't know if this agreement went into effect in the mid-1980s when Northwest and Republic merged, or if it happened when the new McNamara Terminal opened at DTW in 2002. In any case, it exists primarily so that carriers cannot operate at YIP at much lower rates than they could at DTW.

DTW and YIP are managed by the same entity - the Wayne County Airport Authority. The Authority was created in 2002; prior to that time, both airports were managed by Wayne County (Michigan). The Authority would like to develop YIP into a cargo hub, and the extension of runway 9L/27R, expected to be completed in 2013, will help in these efforts.

DET is operated by the City of Detroit. Commercial service is not permitted because the airport does not have its Part 139, Class IV certificate. (IIRC, DET lost this about two years ago.) WN did operate at DET many years ago but eventually moved to DTW and recently celebrated 20 years of operating in Detroit.
 
timz
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:28 pm

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 9):
B 25's were built there during WW2..

Willow Run was famous for its B-24s-- did North American have a plant there too?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:21 pm

As others have said the WCAA operates both DTW & YIP and they will not allow scheduled commercial flights at YIP.

There is no logical reason to open up YIP for commerical service when DTW is all of about 10 minutes away down I-94. It has the runways to handle ops, as Kalitta lands cargo 747's there on a semi-regular basis. YIP does not have the terminal, parking, and security infrastructure to handle scheduled service and it would a stupid investment to do so when DTW has ample capacity.

DET hasn't had commerical air service since 2001 and its certification has since lapsed. The airport is not viable for many reasons - including short runway, narrow runway (100 ft wide), location / neighborhood, and NIMBY.

PTK, as we have discussed many of times is GA only and also not suited for commerical ops. No terminal infrastructure, NIMBY, and proximity between DTW & FNT.
 
DMAJ7TH
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:01 pm

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 7):
I may be showing my ignorance here, but regarding YIP, isn't the "Y" a designation for a Canadian airport?

Country (area) identification is used in four letter ICAO coding, not three letter IATA coding. ICAO coding for Canada is actually"C", and it just so happens that the second letter for each Canadian ICAO code is also a "Y". The full ICAO for Ypsilanti is KYIP, but your luggage tag specifies IATA - "YIP, ATL, PHL, etc etc". Our flight plans filed with ATC use four letters - "KYIP, CYUL, PANC, etc etc".

I hope this helps!
 
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:08 pm

Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:04 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 16):
a stupid investment

Ya really think so? Sooooooooo, how come Skybus is going to fly into Punta Gurda FL instead of RSW?
They may be on to something...
safe
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B757capt
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:22 pm

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 4):
Sounds like a possible Skybus candidate...



Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 19):
Ya really think so? Sooooooooo, how come Skybus is going to fly into Punta Gurda FL instead of RSW?
They may be on to something...
safe

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bond007
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:31 pm

Quoting DMAJ7TH (Reply 17):
ICAO coding for Canada is actually"C", and it just so happens that the second letter for each Canadian ICAO code is also a "Y".

...and a few U, W, and Zs ... although they don't have corresponding 3 letter IATA codes I believe.

Although nothing is written in stone about the 3-letters Y's being Canadian, there aren't many that don't fit. There are only a few USA 3-letter codes that I can find ... YIP, YUM, YKM, YAK, and YNG, and I guarantee a few people are confused when seeing USA flight plans to the more obscure ones (YKM?).

Only international ICAO flight planes need to filed using the ICAO 4-letter code ... domestic USA can use the 3-letter, hence the possible confusion for those that think 'Y' must be Canada  Wink


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airlinelover
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:45 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 5):
Of course, PTK is another candidate - so long as it the capability - with its convenient location to central Detroit (37mi) and metro. Detroit, with the added advantage of being convenient for both Lansing (63mi) and Flint (35mi).

The issue with PTK remains that they have no concourse, no real terminal, next to no security except the Waterford PD. They'd have to build a term, parking, etc from the ground up.

While they did recently expand the main rwy (9R/27L) to 6200 feet, it is simply not economical for the airport to expand to that type of commercial aviation.

Now, if you like 727's, Contract Air Cargo flies some out of there..  Wink

Chris
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:10 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 19):
Ya really think so? Sooooooooo, how come Skybus is going to fly into Punta Gurda FL instead of RSW?
They may be on to something...
safe

Yes, I do thing it would be a dumb idea for the county to invest money to open up YIP to commerical ops. The WCAA is spending plenty of money on the new North terminal at DTW, which should they open up another airport 10 minutes away? Money is scare enough in this region as it is.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:54 pm

Agreed on the $$$ situation. I also believe Wayne County is not going to promote YIP to a passenger
facility with DTW 10-12 minute ride to the east. I do think the geo area is ripe IF this can happen...
The population numbers in a 10 mile radius of YIP is staggering, especially to the west with Ann Arbor and
U of M.
But we are in agreement.
On the Punta Gorda FL, this is going to be real interesting with Skybus trying a whole new airport and market.
Punta Gorda to the north of RSW, will draw from Sarasota which is underserved and south.
This is one of those..."stay tuned" places.
safe
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NASCARAirforce
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:38 pm

Quoting Kstatepilot (Reply 1):
USA Jet has a base in YIP. Kalitta has a sizeable operation there. There are some smaller operators that have bases there, Air Cargo Carriers and Alliance Aviation come to mind real quick.

Murray has DC-8s and CASA 212s based there

Kalita has a huge operation of its smaller charter planes - Lears, Falcons etc. Kalita used to have a huge operation of 747s, DC-8s, L1011s and 727s out of there.

Zantop used to have a base there with Electras, Convair 640s and DC-8s

Transcontinental had DC-8s based there

USA Jet has a base there of DC-9s and Falcon 20s

IFL Group flies a lot of Falcon 20s and Convairs 580s out of there

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 5):
Of course, PTK is another candidate - so long as it the capability - with its convenient location to central Detroit (37mi) and metro. Detroit, with the added advantage of being convenient for both Lansing (63mi) and Flint (35mi).

PTK has a great facility for Skybus as we know that the Airbus A319 can take off out of there with no problem - as we have seen with Daimler Chrysler flying to Germany. PTK has a nice executive terminal, though I doubt that it could handle a plane load of Skybus passengers due to its size. They might have to expand the terminal, which wouldn't be hard due to their used to be a nightclub connected to it and its been closed for some time.

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 6):
I've heard YIP might be (or already is?) planning on extending one of its runways. Looking at the diagram of it... it is kind of a strange looking airport. Not really much of taxiways anywhere... just a lot of runways jumbled up.

They've been talking about extending the runways for a long time. That is the biggest reason Kalitta pulled its DC-8 and 747 operation out of there because they couldn't operate fully loaded 747s from YIP due to the short runways.

They use one of the parallel runways as a taxiway - runways way too close for simultaneous operations anyway

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 9):
UA and EA used to fly DC 8's and TW flew 707's out of YIP before June of 66. For more heavy metal, Kalitta flew stretch 8's and 747's from YIP.

Kalitta flew DC-8s, 747s, L1011s back then and still operate DC-9s and 727s today for their Kalitta Charters II

Another carrier used to fly once a week between YIP and somewhere in England carrying parts for Jaguar cars

YIP still gets other cargo charters there - I have seen Atlas 747s, Gemini MD-11s etc there.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 9):
B 25's were built there during WW2..

No they weren't. Ford built B-24s there, not B-25s

Quoting Tb727 (Reply 12):
I have also heard the SWA flew in there before moving to DTW.

SWA flew into DET and DTW at the same time in the late 80s early 90s, until SWA pulled completely out due to runways being too short.

Quoting Tb727 (Reply 12):
That is not a very nice neighborhood either.

Understatement of the day.

Quoting Vctony (Reply 13):
With the billions of dollars funneled into DTW (the new terminals, runway, etc.) I highly doubt that the airport authority would encourage scheduled passenger operations at an airport 14 miles away, not to mention the expense in renovating the terminal there.

Wayne County airport Authority is too busy with their new baby the North Terminal right now to put time and effort into YIP as a passenger airport. YIP is pretty much the cargo and GA reliever to DTW. Anything that isn't Fed Ex, DHL/Airborne, or UPS cargowise is pretty much going to fly out of YIP.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:19 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Thread starter):
No they weren't. Ford built B-24s there, not B-25s

Yep...your're right. YIP was the birthplace of Rosie the Riveter, who help built the B-24.
safe
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2H4
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:38 pm

Quoting Tb727 (Reply 12):
And if you can't figure it out, Ypsilanti is pronounced "ip-si-lan-tee"

Also "ip-si-tuk-ee".  Wink

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 26):
YIP was the birthplace of Rosie the Riveter, who help built the B-24.
safe

My great-grandmother was a "Rosie". She had a few good stories, but I wish I'd gotten more out of her before she died last year.

2H4

Intentionally Left Blank
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:18 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 25):
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 5):
Of course, PTK is another candidate - so long as it the capability - with its convenient location to central Detroit (37mi) and metro. Detroit, with the added advantage of being convenient for both Lansing (63mi) and Flint (35mi).

PTK has a great facility for Skybus as we know that the Airbus A319 can take off out of there with no problem - as we have seen with Daimler Chrysler flying to Germany. PTK has a nice executive terminal, though I doubt that it could handle a plane load of Skybus passengers due to its size. They might have to expand the terminal, which wouldn't be hard due to their used to be a nightclub connected to it and its been closed for some time.

Unfortunately, the NIMBYs would scream if anyone tried to bring commercial air service into PTK, especially a "downscale" airline like SkyBus. As mentioned in past threads, the politically powerful residents of Birmingham / Bloomfield / Troy are very happy with the current air service in southeast Michigan; DTW and FNT are a reasonably short drive away, but are just far enough away that jet noise isn't too much of a problem.

Of the airports in southeast Michigan, the ideal airport for air carrier service would be Oakland Troy Airport, on 15 Mile Road between Crooks and Coolidge, literally within walking distance of the office parks on Big Beaver Road, and downtown Birmingham. Oakland Troy Airport has a 3,550 foot long runway, which could probably accomodate 19 seat turboprops to CVG or ORD, but the NIMBY opposition to airline service at Oakland Troy would be incredible!
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Commerical Airlines At YIP?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:50 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 28):
Unfortunately, the NIMBYs would scream if anyone tried to bring commercial air service into PTK, especially a "downscale" airline like SkyBus. As mentioned in past threads, the politically powerful residents of Birmingham / Bloomfield / Troy are very happy with the current air service in southeast Michigan; DTW and FNT are a reasonably short drive away, but are just far enough away that jet noise isn't too much of a problem.

L. Brooks Patterson, need I say more. Its not the NIMBY's from Bham/Troy, but more from the Waterford / West Bloomfield / Commerce / Highland crowd. A number of "charters" run out of PTK including some semi-regular service up north to places like TVC & PLN for the summer weekends.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 28):
Of the airports in southeast Michigan, the ideal airport for air carrier service would be Oakland Troy Airport, on 15 Mile Road between Crooks and Coolidge, literally within walking distance of the office parks on Big Beaver Road, and downtown Birmingham. Oakland Troy Airport has a 3,550 foot long runway, which could probably accomodate 19 seat turboprops to CVG or ORD, but the NIMBY opposition to airline service at Oakland Troy would be incredible!

Is that a joke, right? I grew up less than 2 miles away from there. That airport while very busy is insanely small, and shoe-horned into a tiny property since they built up on all sides of it.. It is too small for even 19 seaters. Let alone the FBO / GA terminal is the size of a double-wide. The runway at Oakland Troy has virtually no safety zone either. I can remember on more than one occasion a small plane ending up on Coolidge Rd or in the parking lot of the old Ford / New Holland plant that used to be there (Now a Target/Farmer Jack/ Home Depot. The residents of Birmingham do not like the noise from the airport even if it is mostly just a bunch of small piston / small jet aircraft. Plus ORD doesn't need any 19 seaters anyways hogging up slots. Also the office occupany rate in Troy is something like 60% currently. There are a lot of half vacant office buildings around all of Southeastern Michigan.

There is no need for any additional airports in Southeastern Michigan to get scheduled air service.

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