centrair
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Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:59 pm

Immigration Bureau of the Japanese Ministry of Justice posted a video concerning new procedures for Customs and Immigration.

Excerpt of text
[quote] the amended (Immigration Control) Act has established a new procedure wherein at the landing examination, foreign nationals (excluding special permanent residents, persons under the age of 16, and others specified as eligible for exemption) are required to submit personal identification information such as fingerprints. The new procedure shall be put into operation by November 23, 2007. It is expected that the introduction of the new landing examination procedure using personal identification information will make it possible to detect terrorists at the border more successfully and prevent the occurrence of terrorist attacks, thereby making Japan a safer country.[/quote

Publicity Video on Amendment of Immigration Act Entitled “Landing Examination Procedures for Japan are Changing!” Available via the Internet (no joke in that title)

The video is posted in English, Chinese and Korean. (Don't mind the horrible acting)

So Japan has decided to take a preventive stance rather than a reactive stance.
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yfbflyer
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:07 pm

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
So Japan has decided to take a preventive stance rather than a reactive stance.

The last round of terrorism in Japan was completely domestic. Would this program have stopped that attack?
 
Rivet42
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:15 pm

... I think you'll find that Japan, like Brasil, is merely reciprocating the treatment of their nationals at US airports. Too bad that the rest of us get caught up in the middle of all this. It'll have no effect on preventing global terrorism, any more than banning from entry passengers with surnames like Laden, Islam, etc is likely to.

Riv'
I travel, therefore I am.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:50 pm

I really don't think this is a response to the US. I'd like to think governments aren't that childish. Brazil and its visas is fair, but picture and fingerprinting I think is an entirely independent issue in Japan.

At least they aren't doing it to transit passengers.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
Leskova
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:49 am

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
So Japan has decided to take a preventive stance rather than a reactive stance.

This is as much a "preventive stance" as the fact that I'm currently drinking my second cup of coffee this morning... there's nothing about it that's going to prevent even a single terrorist act anywhere on the face of this planet, including, of course, Japan.
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RussianJet
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:45 am

Quoting Yfbflyer (Reply 1):
The last round of terrorism in Japan was completely domestic. Would this program have stopped that attack?

That has nothing to do with anything. The ability to travel unhindered is absolutely essential to international terrorism. Anything that makes it tougher for suspects to pass through any country undetected is good for everyone.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 4):
This is as much a "preventive stance" as the fact that I'm currently drinking my second cup of coffee this morning... there's nothing about it that's going to prevent even a single terrorist act anywhere on the face of this planet, including, of course, Japan.

Maybe you should lay off the coffee. Obviously in isolation these measures are not going to prevent terrorist attacks. In conjuction with other checks they will, however, make life tougher for criminals and terrorists. In my book that's loads better than your second cup of coffee.

As always, if anyone has a problem with this and doesn't wish to compy, there's a very simple answer. Don't go there. Your choice.
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PanHAM
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:46 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):

That has nothing to do with anything. The ability to travel unhindered is absolutely essential to international terrorism. Anything that makes it tougher for suspects to pass through any country undetected is good for everyone.

I expect from the authorities that they monitor the real bad guys and that their travel plans are known ahead. The pre-checking and profiling of flight bookings is perfectly alright and should be part of that process.

Taking finger prints from the 99,99% of the world travellers who have nothing to do with terrorism except that they are treated like potential criminals because of that, is pure show. Possibly makes live easier for the police after an attack happened. But that reminds me of a line in a Bill Cosby comedy show where he questioned the purpose of seatbelts. Answer : The ambulance drivers are too lazy to look for the bodies.

It may be different in the US, at least in Germany the general opinion is that taking finger prints is for criminals only. Except for my 2 index fingers, no prints are on file anywhere and I actually wanted to keep it like that.
.
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RussianJet
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:20 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
I expect from the authorities that they monitor the real bad guys and that their travel plans are known ahead. The pre-checking and profiling of flight bookings is perfectly alright and should be part of that process.

Right, well you'd be wrong then. That assumes they know everything about everyone of interest all the time, including where they are and what they are doing. Oddly enough, those guys try not to advertise their plans and intentions, and intelligence gathering, as we all know, is far from an exact science.
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sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:27 pm

Bad job by Japan to fingerprint the whole world. Are they going to fingerprint and photo 6 year olds? How about babies? What are the odds of children under 10 or elderly over 75 being terrorists upon entering Japan?
Of course the authoritarians will accept this flagrant violation and humiliation of human rights, and tell us we must happily give up all privacy or be unable to travel,and try to scare everyone with Al Qaeda, even though there arent any in Japan.

How long will it be, before we all must be RFID'd, and wear a GPS ankle bracelet while in a foreign country before we can travel internationally? Maybe a nice bar code tattoo would be a better way to keep track of all the terrorists / tourists passing through airports?
 
SBBRTech
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:40 pm

Are the japanese authorities using the same method deployed in the US ?
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sandrozrh
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:49 pm

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 8):

Well, guess which nation started it all  Yeah sure
 
PanHAM
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:50 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):

Right, well you'd be wrong then. That assumes they know everything about everyone of interest all the tim

So what is the purpose of finger printing then? Next you collect the DNA on entry to the US. I consider it a civil right that my finger prints and whatever are taken only if I am suspected of having comitted a crime. On proven innocence, these prints must be destroyed again. The civil rights apply for citizens and for visitors alike. OK, I still travel to the US and will not change that in the future, hence I have to accept it but I am not easy about it and tell that.

In all the discussions here on this topic, I make it a point that profiling is in my opinion the better way to prevent terrorist attacks. We do not have to repeat here that 9/11 could have been prevented if the existing data of the terrorists had been exchanged between the various agencies. Check the names and the data of passengers before they leave and prevent suspects from entering the country that way. OTH, it is absoliuetly rubbish to demand that this data is available 48 hours in advance.

If I am on the phone with a customer in NYC and he wants me to see hoim that evening in NY and that means I have to hop on LH408 to JFK which is 2 hours from now, I want to be able to do that. Only beeing able to go on the Wednesday flight does not serve the purpose, I want to be - and can be - back on Wednesday morning

There is a lot of stuff in legislation that is not logic and contrary to business practise. Not to mention all the BS regulations about cargo traffic by sea and by air which is pending legaslation

We all want to fight terrorism, but this cannot be done by accusing 100% of the travellers as potential terrorists or assuming that terrosists are eventually hiding inside a 150 lbs air cargo shipment. And that is no joke, there is a requirement is inspect such shipments.
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RussianJet
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:05 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
I consider it a civil right that my finger prints and whatever are taken only if I am suspected of having comitted a crime

In that case you have the option I previously outlined - if you don't like it, don't go there.
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PanHAM
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:17 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 12):

In that case you have the option I previously outlined - if you don't like it, don't go there.

you did not read what I wrote. I said that I accept it, even when I don't like it.

I spend a lot of time in the US , I even lived and worked there in the 70s, I defend the US in discussions whenever I have the chance. I feel absolutely free and comfortable in your country and probably you might not even notice that I am a foreigner when you would meet me.

May be that is because I am able to think in more ´shades than just black and white.

I am not going to tell you what you can do with your comment because it might violate the forum rules, I just give you the advise to accept the fact that there re other planets except the USA and that these aliens might have other opinions and still may be right eventually.
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RussianJet
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:41 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
I spend a lot of time in the US , I even lived and worked there in the 70s, I defend the US in discussions whenever I have the chance. I feel absolutely free and comfortable in your country and probably you might not even notice that I am a foreigner when you would meet me.

May be that is because I am able to think in more ´shades than just black and white.

I am not going to tell you what you can do with your comment because it might violate the forum rules, I just give you the advise to accept the fact that there re other planets except the USA and that these aliens might have other opinions and still may be right eventually.

Have you ever seen a UK flag before?? It's somewhat different from a US flag, and can be found right next to my screen name.

I did read what you said, but if you choose to go there then there's no point complaining about it. One has to accept that the reasons are valid in their eyes, else they would not impose such requirements in the first place.
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ANother
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:40 pm

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 8):
and wear a GPS ankle bracelet while in a foreign country before we can travel internationally?

Actually shouldn't the question be how long will it be before you have to wear that GPS bracelet in your own country.

If you can tell me that the Japanese, or the Americans, Brazilians - whatever, have even one fingerprint of a terrorist that they are hoping to match, I might think about my views. Or if you can show me one report that they have actually caught a black hat with their programs.

If the system is so good, why don't they finger-print their own citizens? This would likely be much more useful in crime-solution - oh yah, it's against their citizens human rights.

The whole purpose of the schemes is to be seen as doing something, so the politicians can be thought as attempting to protect you - why? So they can be re-elected.
 
incitatus
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:59 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 3):
I really don't think this is a response to the US. I'd like to think governments aren't that childish.

Oh, the Brazilian Government *is* that childish.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
Taking finger prints from the 99,99% of the world travellers who have nothing to do with terrorism except that they are treated like potential criminals because of that, is pure show.

99.99%?

How many people cross through immigration at an airport around the World every year? I will guess a round number of 500 million. 99.99% means 50 thousand trouble makers of high caliber are crossing borders every year and could be caught. Sounds like it is justified.
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PanHAM
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:14 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 14):
Have you ever seen a UK flag before?? It's somewhat different from a US flag, and can be found right next to my screen nam

No, never. When did you give independence to the colonies?

I did not even look at your flag and the flag really means nothing, there are lots of people here who are showing not necessarily their nationality. . Even if I had looked at it, you argued like a Yank living in the UK.



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 14):

I did read what you said, but if you choose to go there then there's no point complaining about it. One has to accept

I do accept it but that doesn't stop me fromk complaining or arhguing over some stupid regulations. I am quite surprised to find this kind of obedience to the authorities from someone in the UK (or the US) . I always thought that this is a German disease, which the allies tried to cure us from after 45.

.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 16):
99.99%?

could be 99,999 or 99,9990 as well. Don't start counting beans.
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cjpark
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:29 pm

I saw that video while going through customs at Narita 17 Sept.

Obstensibly this is to fight terrorism but it may have more to do with tracking foriegn business people/foriegn workers/ foriegn students/foriegn tourists entering the country. They want to make sure we all leave.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
RussianJet
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigra

Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:58 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
Even if I had looked at it, you argued like a Yank living in the UK.

That's just ridiculous and more than a little offensive on a number of levels. I think you should apologise.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
I am quite surprised to find this kind of obedience to the authorities from someone in the UK (or the US) . I always thought that this is a German disease, which the allies tried to cure us from after 45.

Hmm, again with the racial stereotypes.

Actually, my views are formed from having a knowledge of how such procedures work and the benefits they can bring, and an awareness of the threats we all face. This, coupled with the fact that obedience and respect to the authorities in a country in which you are a guest is indeed something which for me, at least, goes without question.
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SBBRTech
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigra

Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:12 pm

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 18):
They want to make sure we all leave.

That must be it.
I find quite difficult to believe that fingerprinting would stop alien suicidal madmen from blowing the hell outta anyone.
To stop them from entering the country once again makes sense, but to avoid a premeditated crime it´s pure fantasy...
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Thorben
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:20 pm

Another country I will not travel to.
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atmx2000
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:03 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
It may be different in the US, at least in Germany the general opinion is that taking finger prints is for criminals only. Except for my 2 index fingers, no prints are on file anywhere and I actually wanted to keep it like that.



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
So what is the purpose of finger printing then? Next you collect the DNA on entry to the US. I consider it a civil right that my finger prints and whatever are taken only if I am suspected of having comitted a crime

What is your view on biometric security systems for computers using finger prints? Is the computer treating you like a criminal?

How do you feel about Germany investigating iris scans?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/ptech/0.../16/irisscan.airport.ap/index.html

Quoting SBBRTech (Reply 20):
I find quite difficult to believe that fingerprinting would stop alien suicidal madmen from blowing the hell outta anyone.

The simple fact of the matter is there is extensive amounts of passport theft and fraud going on. The ability of immigration/customs officers to recognize whether the person using a passport is the person to which the passport was issued to is limited by extensive amount of changes in facial appearance due to weight changes, trauma, styling, accessories, cosmetic surgery etc a person might go through over the life of a passport. Finding features that are less mutable to match the traveler with the passport will aid in verifying the identities of travelers.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 21):
Another country I will not travel to.

Maybe you won't be travelling anywhere in the future.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/115925.html

These include plans for a European Passenger Name Record (PNR) and a register of foreigners entering or leaving the bloc that would ultimately include details such as their photograph, fingerprints and even a scan of the retina of their eyes. Under the proposals, law- enforcement officials in all member states would be allowed to share such data with colleagues across the EU.

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 2):
... I think you'll find that Japan, like Brasil, is merely reciprocating the treatment of their nationals at US airports. Too bad that the rest of us get caught up in the middle of all this. It'll have no effect on preventing global terrorism, any more than banning from entry passengers with surnames like Laden, Islam, etc is likely to.



Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 3):
I really don't think this is a response to the US. I'd like to think governments aren't that childish. Brazil and its visas is fair, but picture and fingerprinting I think is an entirely independent issue in Japan.



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 16):
Oh, the Brazilian Government *is* that childish.



Quoting Cjpark (Reply 18):
Obstensibly this is to fight terrorism but it may have more to do with tracking foriegn business people/foriegn workers/ foriegn students/foriegn tourists entering the country. They want to make sure we all leave.

 checkmark 

Brazil was singling out Americans. Japan is implementing it for everyone. They probably have their eye more on North Korea and China.
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incitatus
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:10 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
could be 99,999 or 99,9990 as well. Don't start counting beans.

Why should I stop?

Passports are weak positive ID'ing. It is easy to come up with a counterfeit, or adapt someone's passport for another person to use.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 18):
Obstensibly this is to fight terrorism but it may have more to do with tracking foriegn business people/foriegn workers/ foriegn students/foriegn tourists entering the country. They want to make sure we all leave.

Isn't that a good enough reason?

Quoting ANother (Reply 15):
If the system is so good, why don't they finger-print their own citizens?

I believe we are heading towards a system where every person crossing a border will be ID'd biometrically. It is just a question of time.
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Rivet42
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigra

Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:58 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 14):
One has to accept that the reasons are valid in their eyes, else they would not impose such requirements in the first place.

Ha, ha, ha, ha!!! That's tongue-in-cheek, right?! Right??

Oppressive regimes around the world have most likely thought that what they were doing was right in their eyes, but that doesn't mean they were 'right' in absolute terms. That's exactly what the convention on human rights is about, along with the legal principle of being considered innocent until proven guilty (a right enshrined in most legal systems, including the US, even though they prove to ignore it when it suits them). Treating everyone as a suspect is contrary to that principle, and you can be certain that any such move to fingerprint US citizens en masse purely for the sake of 'crime-prevention' will get nowhere. And rightly so.

And how exactly is the taking of fingerprints at arrival into any country going to determine irrefutably that the passport is genuine? If the person concerned has never been on any similar system before, or their passport is for a ficticious person (heaven forbid!), then taking fingerprints will actually achieve nothing more than help identify the bits when that suicide bomber has succeeded in blowing themselves up. Oh, job done, then!

Ok, so if we all eventually end up with biometric passports, then our fingerprints could be matched to them in a way that does not require the prints (data) to be stored beyond the point of being matched to the passport, thus protecting our right to privacy and the presumption of innocence whilst providing confirmation that we are who our passport says we are. But this is not that system. Yet.

And don't forget that everything can be forged, so serious terrorists with enough money & determination (oh, just about everyone we are 'worried' about then!) will be able to acquire a 'valid' biometric passport in a different name, and will still slip through the system.

Personally I love Japan, and the Japanese people, and I'm very disappointed that their government has gone down this route. Will I still go there? Probably. But I still claim the right to say what I think about the system, even if I decide to be party to it, grudgingly.

Riv'
I travel, therefore I am.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:06 pm

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 24):
Ha, ha, ha, ha!!! That's tongue-in-cheek, right?! Right??

Oppressive regimes around the world have most likely thought that what they were doing was right in their eyes, but that doesn't mean they were 'right' in absolute terms. That's exactly what the convention on human rights is about, along with the legal principle of being considered innocent until proven guilty (a right enshrined in most legal systems, including the US, even though they prove to ignore it when it suits them). Treating everyone as a suspect is contrary to that principle, and you can be certain that any such move to fingerprint US citizens en masse purely for the sake of 'crime-prevention' will get nowhere

No. I'm talking about immigration controls, not internal politics. If they see fit to impose requirements on those who travel to their country then you just have to wear it, or not travel there. It's a totally different issue from how countries treat their own citizens.
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yfbflyer
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:22 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 22):
Japan is implementing it for everyone. They probably have their eye more on North Korea and China

There is a strong undercurrent of xenophobia in Japan. This is nothing more than government sanctioned racism.

http://www.eyesonjapan.com/jp42.htm
http://discussenglish.blogspot.com/2.../cops-and-foreigners-in-japan.html
http://www.debito.org/roguesgallery.html
 
RussianJet
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:30 pm

Quoting Yfbflyer (Reply 26):
This is nothing more than government sanctioned racism.

What, racism against everyone who isn't a Japanese national? Get real. It's called immigration control, all countries have it.
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yfbflyer
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:40 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 27):
racism against everyone who isn't a Japanese national

If you bothered to check into this even people that have taken Japaneses citizenship by marrying a Japanese national will be subject to fingerprinting.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:51 pm

I'm really not sure what the problem is. Once upon a time, fingerprinting consisted of ink and cards and was a real pain in the ass for all involved. In some parts of the United States, background checks based on fingerprints are still conducted this way, but in most of the developed world, it's dying. We're quickly moving toward a reality where placing fingerprints on an electronic panel and having them read will not take any time at all, and it's certainly an easy way for Japanese authorities (and those in other countries) to keep track of who is entering and leaving.

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 24):
And how exactly is the taking of fingerprints at arrival into any country going to determine irrefutably that the passport is genuine?

It won't.

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 24):
If the person concerned has never been on any similar system before, or their passport is for a ficticious person (heaven forbid!), then taking fingerprints will actually achieve nothing more than help identify the bits when that suicide bomber has succeeded in blowing themselves up. Oh, job done, then!

In evaluating the duty to act preventatively in tort liability, common law systems apply a balancing test which essentially balances the burden to an actor against the potential to prevent an event (in America, it was first articulated by Judge Lerned Hand; though Britain also has the same idea, I don't know for sure where it came from there). If the burden is small, the action need not be something which will do a lot to prevent the damage.

I would suggest that a similar analysis is appropriate here. The burden of providing fingerprints and retinal scans to immigration authorities is small and decreasing. It will not prevent every terrorist attack or every illegal entry. But if it has some positive impact, perhaps the small burden is worth it.
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baw2198
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:57 pm

you know what, in the end the fingerprints aren't going to matter and neither are the iris scans. Just like the drugs coming in from columbia and whereever else, the useless gun bans in england and oz, etc etc. If the bad guys want to get in, they'll find a way.

These measures that our gov'ts come up with to protect us, only hurt the law abiding. They don't fix the problem.


2198
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RussianJet
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:15 pm

Quoting Yfbflyer (Reply 28):
If you bothered to check into this even people that have taken Japaneses citizenship by marrying a Japanese national will be subject to fingerprinting.

Where did you get that from? 'foreign national' means people who do not have Japanese citizenship. Marrying a Japanese national does not immediately make you one. If you have a source for what you assert about Japanese nationals originally from other countries having to submit to these controls, please post it.

From the Japanese embassy in the UK website:

"2. Affected persons
All foreign nationals entering Japan will be subject to the new provisions, apart from the following:
(1) Special permanent residents
(2) Persons under 16 years of age
(3) Those persons performing activities which fall under the status of residence for ‘Diplomat’ or ‘Official’
(4) Those persons who have been invited by the head of any national administrative organization
(5) Those persons who are prescribed by the Ministry of Justice ordinance as equivalent to either (3) or (4)"
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sh0rtybr0wn
Posts: 373
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:47 pm

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 18):
Obstensibly this is to fight terrorism but it may have more to do with tracking foriegn business people/foriegn workers/ foriegn students/foriegn tourists entering the country. They want to make sure we all leave.



Very True. The Japanese are quite nationalistic. There are a few militant groups in Japan dedicated to getting all foreigners out. They want complete homogeneity. Whats weird is, Japan only has about 1% foreigners now. You'd think it wouldn't be that big of an issue.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 23):
I believe we are heading towards a system where every person crossing a border will be ID'd biometrically. It is just a question of time.

I really hope not, because then; the governments will replace your phrase "crossing a border" with

1 walking or driving down the street
2 leaving your state / province etc.
3 buying anything

And for those who can't wait for more authoritarianism coming to an airport near them.....please read Orwell's 1984.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:50 pm

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 32):
There are a few militant groups in Japan dedicated to getting all foreigners out.

Ha ha, show me a country that doesn't have at least one of those  Smile
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schipholjfk
Posts: 521
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:06 pm

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 10):
uoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 8):

Well, guess which nation started it all

And guess which nation was attacked on 9/11?
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AirNZ
Posts: 544
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:25 pm

Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 34):
And guess which nation was attacked on 9/11?

But you certainly weren't the first, or only one ever attacked.
Indeed, and if I may respectively say so, your nation turned a blind eye to terrorism for years when it suited their foreign policy, or interfered with getting votes to take political office.
Flown:F27/TU134/Viscount/Trident/BAC111/727/737/747/757/767/777/300/310/320/321/330/340/DC9/DC10/Dash8/Shorts330/BAe146
 
brilondon
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:50 pm

I hope that the Americans would feel the frustration and degrading attitude most of the world faces every time they enter the U.S.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
sandrozrh
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:57 pm

Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 34):

And guess which nation was attacked on 9/11?

 Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 36):
I hope that the Americans would feel the frustration and degrading attitude most of the world faces every time they enter the U.S.

 checkmark 
 
767Lover
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigra

Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:34 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 15):
If the system is so good, why don't they finger-print their own citizens? This would likely be much more useful in crime-solution - oh yah, it's against their citizens human rights.

I guess my local fitness center is violating my human rights when they ask me to check in with my index-finger scan.

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 36):
I hope that the Americans would feel the frustration and degrading attitude most of the world faces every time they enter the U.S.

I think you are being overly dramatic.




Didn't someone say, when there was a thread about some rule in Singapore, that it's their country and they have the right to do what they want?

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 8):
Are they going to fingerprint and photo 6 year olds? How about babies?

Read the original post again.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
It may be different in the US, at least in Germany the general opinion is that taking finger prints is for criminals only. Except for my 2 index fingers, no prints are on file anywhere and I actually wanted to keep it like that.
.

There are only 2 fingerprints taken/scanned for the US program. And they are not even taken in the US.

You get fingerprints of only 2 fingers taken in your home country to effectively create a biometric passport. You also have a photo taken, like you normally do with a passport. When you arrive in the US you put those 2 fingers on a scanner to ensure that's who you are. They also take a photo, but I don't see how that is any big deal, other than looking like complete shit after an international flight.

Edit: The information above is current procedures listed on the Homeland Security website. The other thread mentions that the US Is moving to 10-digit scans, which I was not aware of. This is a pilot program being tested but I have not found any info on when that will roll out.

I still don't think it is a big deal, because biometrics is going to become more and more prevalent in many areas, not just travel. (i.e., healthcare.)

[Edited 2007-10-08 16:02:58]
 
incitatus
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 32):
I really hope not, because then; the governments will replace your phrase "crossing a border" with

1 walking or driving down the street
2 leaving your state / province etc.
3 buying anything

And for those who can't wait for more authoritarianism coming to an airport near them.....please read Orwell's 1984.

Let me repeat: a passport is a flaky piece of identification. It only works well when the passport holder is an honest person. Either you (i) believe otherwise and thinks passports are fine and fool proof or (ii) you have some other great idea to identify people which is not biometric. If so, how to do it?

1984 is a novel. To think that just because border crossings will have biometric identification, life will end up like in some novel is really naive.
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brilondon
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:49 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 38):
I think you are being overly dramatic

I cross the boarder every day for work at Windsor and if you would only see what goes on there on a daily basis you would not think I am being overly dramatic but describing the facts. The truth is the US boarder is the toughest boarder in the "free world" to cross and I for one would like it if they could at least not seem like Nazi SS and be more human. I do know that the majority of the CBP agents and the immigration agents are really nice people but there are a few who think that the US is a military zone an treat it as such.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
babybus
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 21):
Another country I will not travel to.

Same here.This is the reason I demand never to transit through USA on flights.

It's time to get biometric passports (and credit cards too) that are validated at arrival airports by passing it through a machine. The idea of being fingerprinted and eyeball scanned everytime I enter a country is unacceptable and demeaning.

I'm sure the Japanese, however, will have a very delicate and polite way of taking all these bio details on arrival.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:54 am

Quoting Babybus (Reply 41):
The idea of being fingerprinted and eyeball scanned everytime I enter a country is unacceptable and demeaning.

I'm sure the Japanese, however, will have a very delicate and polite way of taking all these bio details on arrival.

If you watch the video, you'll see it. Doesn't look too demeaning to me. But then, if you're the type of person that feels demeaned by people verifying your identity when crossing borders then international travel isn't really your thing.
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babybus
Posts: 2379
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:30 am

The trouble with something like this is that soon the system will be broached and we'll have to move on to other forms of bio-ID.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 42):
demeaned by people verifying your identity when crossing borders then international travel isn't really your thing.

You might also agree, one day, to having cavity searches and swabs taken for evidence of ID or intent. Like any other self respecting citizen, I never have and never will.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
jlarsson
Posts: 64
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:26 pm

I don't know what all the fuss is about.
If they want to use hard drive space on my fingerprints and ugly face, let them.
I have no intentions of doing anything.
Start this discussion again if they are misusing the info stored.

People that are blaming civil rights are those that usually doesn't have the cleanest background.
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RussianJet
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:27 pm

Quoting Babybus (Reply 43):
You might also agree, one day, to having cavity searches and swabs taken for evidence of ID or intent. Like any other self respecting citizen, I never have and never will.

A typical, pointless argument - take one measure of an example and exaggerate and extrapolate it by a factor of one million to make a hysterically extreme point that bears no relation to the situation at hand. Sorry, but we're talking about fingerprints and photos.

By the way, I think you'll find that if customs officers in a variety of countries have good reason to suspect you of carrying drugs then you may well be subject to a cavity search, and 'no' will most likely not be an option. Hmm, maybe you really should stop crossing borders.
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Aaron747
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:36 pm

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 32):
You'd think it wouldn't be that big of an issue.

They just don't like that we all too often talk sense into the locals  Wink Seriously - this is not a big deal for those of us living here at all other than going through line will take longer.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
incitatus
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:07 pm

Quoting Babybus (Reply 41):
It's time to get biometric passports (and credit cards too) that are validated at arrival airports by passing it through a machine. The idea of being fingerprinted and eyeball scanned everytime I enter a country is unacceptable and demeaning.

Can you explain how the biometric information stored in the passport would be matched against the biometric information of the passport bearer? The passport passes through a machine, the person does not... hmmm... sounds like a major security hole.

Duh...folks. What is a photo in your passport? It is biometric information! Anybody checking your passport photo and glancing at you is making a biometric match. While this biometric match is fairly accurate, it is easy to mess with the document and the photo to fool the inspector. It is not easy for somebody to alter their fingerprints or iris.
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AM744
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:16 pm

Quoting Jlarsson (Reply 44):
Start this discussion again if they are misusing the info stored.

It might be too late. I'm not thinking in the US or Japan governments, but rather on those with a poor record regarding corruption, when the practice becomes widespread. I'm concerned with that.
 
BOAC911
Posts: 280
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RE: Japan Starts Fingerprinting & Picts At Immigration

Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:32 pm

Two words: Island Nations.