Super80DFW
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:59 am

Does AA internationally neglect DFW? Besides seasonal, it seems they aren't to big in Central America to DFW. They have Belize City, Guatemala City, and Guanacaste Liberia, that isn't much. Most goes threw MIA. Also Europe. Why don't they have Manchester, Madrid, Rome, Dublin, ZURICH! They have this shiny new Intl. Terminal that needs to be put to good use. Thank god KLM is coming into DFW from AMS to fill another city.
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planespotting
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting Super80DFW (Thread starter):
Why don't they have Manchester, Madrid, Rome, Dublin, ZURICH! They have this shiny new Intl. Terminal that needs to be put to good use. Thank god KLM is coming into DFW from AMS to fill another city.

It's called O&D. The Metroplex doesn't have enough of it.

Chicago does.

[Edited 2007-10-07 18:21:52]
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CIDFlyer
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:14 am

I've kind of wondered this myself, especially since ATL is similar in population and hub size for DL, and their int'l ops are quite large. Is it just because ATL is in a better location geographically than DFW to capture those intl flights? Is ATL's O&D better than DFW's for int'l flights?
 
Copa737DFW
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:03 am

The also have PTY nonstop but seasonal, SJO, and SAL but with TACA
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deltal1011man
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:47 am

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 2):
I've kind of wondered this myself, especially since ATL is similar in population and hub size for DL, and their int'l ops are quite large. Is it just because ATL is in a better location geographically than DFW to capture those intl flights? Is ATL's O&D better than DFW's for int'l flights?

if AA really wanted to fly TATL from DFW they would but i just dont think they want to. DL makes ATL work because of its domestic opps. the big O&D city in DLs network is JFK(which is like ORD with AA)
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Transpac787
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting Super80DFW (Thread starter):
Does AA internationally neglect DFW?

They still have a pretty decent international operation from DFW. Off the top of my head, they have nonstops to:

NRT, FRA, CDG, LGW, EZE, GRU, SCL

Quoting Super80DFW (Thread starter):
Madrid

Only run through MIA....not even any seasonal for JFK or ORD either.

Quoting Super80DFW (Thread starter):
Rome

I think I read somewhere that FCO will be dropping below 'daily' frequency for both ORD and JFK, but take that with a grain of salt. As far as DFW goes, Great Circle Mapper says DFW-FCO is 5614mi, which is really pushing the range limits of a 763. Such a route is beginning to fringe on 777 range territory...and AA doesn't really have any spare 777's for new routes.

Quoting Super80DFW (Thread starter):
ZURICH!

It really is too bad they dropped this. I heard it was because they needed the plane elsewhere?? Maybe the upcoming ORD-EZE?? I do hope they bring back DFW-ZRH though, I'd love to fly that route sometime!!
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:04 am

Quoting Super80DFW (Thread starter):
Does AA internationally neglect DFW? Besides seasonal, it seems they aren't to big in Central America to DFW. They have Belize City, Guatemala City, and Guanacaste Liberia, that isn't much. Most goes threw MIA. Also Europe. Why don't they have Manchester, Madrid, Rome, Dublin, ZURICH! They have this shiny new Intl. Terminal that needs to be put to good use. Thank god KLM is coming into DFW from AMS to fill another city.

So this may be all dumb guesses, and take with a grain of salt, but:
Latin America: the focus is out MIA. Demographics probably play a huge roll in that. I do believe DFW has a lot of flights to Mexico.
Europe: O&D and also connections out of Chicago and JFK. As an example- Who wants to fly southeast from Denver or west from Orlando to DFW to go to Europe, besides a.net geeks?  wink 

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 2):
I've kind of wondered this myself, especially since ATL is similar in population and hub size for DL, and their int'l ops are quite large. Is it just because ATL is in a better location geographically than DFW to capture those intl flights? Is ATL's O&D better than DFW's for int'l flights?

Again, coming from an "uneducated" viewpoint, but I think it's an "apples and oranges" here. I'm pretty sure Delta sends a lot more through ATL then AA does through DFW, and relies far more heavily on ATL than AA relies on one hub individually.
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MAH4546
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:02 am

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 5):
think I read somewhere that FCO will be dropping below 'daily' frequency for both ORD and JFK,

AA is now serving Rome year-round. During the winter, a daily flight will split between ORD (4x weekly) and JFK (3x weekly). During the summer, each will have a daily flight, as always.
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LAXdude1023
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:17 am

Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 2):
Is ATL's O&D better than DFW's for int'l flights?

ATL has better O&D to Europe but less to Asia than DFW. IAH however has about the same to Europe and more to Asia than DFW or ATL.

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 1):
It's called O&D. The Metroplex doesn't have enough of it.

Chicago does.

One thing that has always bothered me is that both DFW and IAH seem underserved Internationally by their respective carriers. IAH being underserved particularly bothers me because CO is just going to let other carriers take them. AA at DFW is another story. AA defends DFW more than any of its other hubs. AA also has proven that they fight dirty when it comes to DFW. DFW needs another city in Europe and one more in Asia too. IAH needs at least two more in Europe and service to ICN on KE.

One thing I will say is that Chicago isnt really a growing market where as DFW is growing exponentially.
It is what it is...
 
Indy
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 1):
It's called O&D. The Metroplex doesn't have enough of it.

Chicago does.

I disagree. While the Chicago metro area has a population of 9.5 million and Dallas/Ft. Worth has a population of 6 million (metro areas) AA has a Dallas/Ft. Worth monopoly with the only hub in that market. AA in Chicago splits ORD with UA and they split the market with UA and WN. So that 9.5 million gets really diluted. So what is AA's share of that 9.5? 4 million maybe?
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
MAH4546
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 9):

I disagree. While the Chicago metro area has a population of 9.5 million and Dallas/Ft. Worth has a population of 6 million (metro areas) AA has a Dallas/Ft. Worth monopoly with the only hub in that market. AA in Chicago splits ORD with UA and they split the market with UA and WN. So that 9.5 million gets really diluted. So what is AA's share of that 9.5? 4 million maybe?

Huh? What you are saying makes no sense. You can't just bring down market size comparisons and an airline's share to something so simplistic. You are entirely ignoring a multitude of factors, such as the fact that demographics play a role, traffic runs two-ways (and a lot more people are visiting Chicago than Dallas), few people are loyal to one airline, etc., etc.
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Indy
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:00 am

Its pretty simple. You have x number of flights competing for x number of people. The more seats you have going in and out the less of those people you can put in those flights. The population of Chicago isn't infinite. AA and UA run heavy on feed as it is out of ORD. If the number of people traveling from ORD to any given destination is 100 people and UA takes all 100 people and now AA comes in and starts that route then either AA is going out empty or UA is going to lose passengers. Then of course there is WN out of MDW. They may start that route as well and take away from those 100 passengers. Just because AA adds the route doesn't mean that all the sudden an extra 100 passengers are going to surface from nowhere.

What is the market share for AA at ORD? What is the market share for AA at DFW? If you can't make it work out of DFW where you have a monopoly then you won't make it work out of ORD where you have half the market share out of one of the airports.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
MAH4546
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:21 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 11):
Its pretty simple. You have x number of flights competing for x number of people. The more seats you have going in and out the less of those people you can put in those flights. The population of Chicago isn't infinite. AA and UA run heavy on feed as it is out of ORD. If the number of people traveling from ORD to any given destination is 100 people and UA takes all 100 people and now AA comes in and starts that route then either AA is going out empty or UA is going to lose passengers. Then of course there is WN out of MDW. They may start that route as well and take away from those 100 passengers. Just because AA adds the route doesn't mean that all the sudden an extra 100 passengers are going to surface from nowhere.

No, sorry, it is not that simple. If it was, airlines would print money on every route.

Quoting Indy (Reply 11):
If you can't make it work out of DFW where you have a monopoly then you won't make it work out of ORD where you have half the market share out of one of the airports.

I seriously hope you are joking with that kind of statement.
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ConcordeBoy
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:37 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 11):
If you can't make it work out of DFW where you have a monopoly then you won't make it work out of ORD where you have half the market share out of one of the airports.

...why do you assume that having a larger share of a smaller market, with lesser demand, somehow warrants greater amounts/success of service? That makes no sense.

If you still cannot rationalize this, you need only look to AA's other large hub: MIA.
It's far smaller than DFW, and AA also has a smaller market share. But it's also their largest international gateway, and not DFW. Why? Simple: demand and location. Same concept.
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Indy
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:47 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
I seriously hope you are joking with that kind of statement.

With a monopoly of a 6 million person market plus feed. Yeah. Seems about right.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 13):
...why do you assume that having a larger share of a smaller market, with lesser demand, somehow warrants greater amounts/success of service? That makes no sense.

A 50% share of a 9.5 million person market means your share is 4.75 million. But given the airlines out of MDW have about a 25% share of that market they in reality have even less. If MDW has a 25% share of that market that means ORD gets 7.125 million of that metro area. Of that AA would have about half. If the ORD operation was so great then UA and AA would be making money hand over fist. That market has been so greatly diluted that they have to rely heavily on feed. Over 60% of AA passengers are feed.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
ConcordeBoy
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 14):
A 50% share of a 9.5 million person market means your share is 4.75 million. But given the airlines out of MDW have about a 25% share of that market they in reality have even less. If MDW has a 25% share of that market that means ORD gets 7.125 million of that metro area. Of that AA would have about half. If the ORD operation was so great then UA and AA would be making money hand over fist. That market has been so greatly diluted that they have to rely heavily on feed. Over 60% of AA passengers are feed.

...from where are you deriving these ridiculously inaccurate percentages?? I'd seriously like to know.
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Indy
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 15):
...from where are you deriving these ridiculously inaccurate percentages?? I'd seriously like to know.

http://www.metroplanning.org/resource.asp?objectID=258&categoryID=1

"Today, connecting passengers represent about 60 percent of O'Hare passenger traffic"

UA's bankruptcy report stated 62% for AA. UA's was 63%. As bad as that is those two weren't #1 or #2. I believe they were beat out by NW and DL. NW had the worst with 70%.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
ConcordeBoy
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:32 am

Ah. Now I see why your figures bear no reflection on reality.  Silly
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LAXdude1023
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:26 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 9):
I disagree. While the Chicago metro area has a population of 9.5 million and Dallas/Ft. Worth has a population of 6 million (metro areas) AA has a Dallas/Ft. Worth monopoly with the only hub in that market. AA in Chicago splits ORD with UA and they split the market with UA and WN. So that 9.5 million gets really diluted. So what is AA's share of that 9.5? 4 million maybe?

I really wish it was that simple. One thing this doesnt factor in is people comeing from other cities to visit both Chicago and the DFW area. There are alot more people comeing internationally to ORD than DFW. I will still say that I think that DFW is underserved by AA internationally. But with KL coming in it pretty much evens things out for European service. I do think they could use another flight to Asia. Which destination im not sure.

DFW is very much a growing market. ORD isnt. I lived in Dallas for 4 years and there is so much development going on there. I can see why, DFW is a wonderful place to live. I currently live in Chicago. I HATE Chicago, but others obviously dont share my feelings since ORD sees much more traffic. AA has a great hub in DFW and even though ORD is a favored hub internationally, what is over looked is that DFW is THE most important hub in AA's system do to its extremely extensive domestic network.
It is what it is...
 
N353SK
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:23 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 14):
Over 60% of AA passengers are feed.

42% of AA ORD pax are O&D, 32% of AA DFW pax are O&D. I'm pretty sure that makes your entire argument moot.
 
rfields5421
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:59 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 8):
One thing that has always bothered me is that both DFW and IAH seem underserved Internationally by their respective carriers

Geography is a killer for the DFW and IAH airports as far as international travel to Europe and Asia.

Delta and Northwest make it very attractive for people from Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma and points north and east to get to Atlanta, Chicago, Detroit or other airports to cross the pond.

While American and Continental can match the connection fares - people just perceive it as "back tracking" to go through Texas to go east. I've got family near Shreveport - and all their trips to Europe have been through Atlanta.

The same applies to the Asia market and the surrounding states. Heck, even folks in Midland seem to prefer to Phoenix or LA to go to Asia.

People don't seem to get that international flights out of DFW and IAH are very little farther than some costal state airports. There is a strong perception / believe out there that you cannot fly non-stop from Dallas or Houston to Europe or Asia.
 
ConcordeBoy
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:58 pm

Quoting Rfields5421 (Reply 21):
While American and Continental can match the connection fares - people just perceive it as "back tracking" to go through Texas to go east.

I'd disagree, to an extent.

While it's true that neither can match the power of ATL or the costal gateways for transoceanic travel... CO runs a virtual shuttle from MSY (and to a lesser extent, the likes of BTR, SHV, LFT, etc) to its IAH-CDG/LGW ops.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Indy
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:14 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 18):
Ah. Now I see why your figures bear no reflection on reality.

Search Google. There are more sources that talk about ORD o/d & feed.

Quoting N353SK (Reply 20):
42% of AA ORD pax are O&D, 32% of AA DFW pax are O&D. I'm pretty sure that makes your entire argument moot.

Can you back up your numbers?
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
N353SK
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 23):
Can you back up your numbers?

http://www.erau.edu/research/BA590/chapters/ch6.htm section 4.0 table 2
 
Indy
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:24 am

Quoting N353SK (Reply 24):
http://www.erau.edu/research/BA590/chapters/ch6.htm section 4.0 table 2

Thanks for that link. While it does show that DFW (for AA) has more connecting passengers it also shows that AA has more O/D at DFW than at ORD. For O/D AA had 1.3 million more outbound pax at DFW than ORD. But dang... 78% of the passengers connect at MIA. Only one worse is US at CLT with 82.2% connecting.

But that table makes my point about AA and O/D. While Chicago has the bigger market than Dallas/Ft. Worth it is clear that AA has a bigger share.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
TeamAmerica
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:31 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 8):
AA also has proven that they fight dirty when it comes to DFW.

If you meant that AA defends DFW no-holds-barred, then I'd agree. If you meant that AA does something unethical (or worse) then you are out of line. AA competes fiercely, and most of the accusations against them taste of sour grapes.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
MAH4546
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:38 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 25):
But dang... 78% of the passengers connect at MIA. Only one worse is US at CLT with 82.2% connecting.

That link is also ridiculously outdated from the year 2000. AA is about 55-60% connecting at MIA now, thanks to three reasons, being an expanded domestic route network with a lower-fare structure, the collapse of dozens of Latin airlines (i.e. VASP, Avensa, Servivensa, AeroPeru, etc., etc.) that eliminated competition, and the closure of United's Miami Latin America hub (which was majority local traffic). In 2005 alone, AA's MIA O&D jumped 19%.

[Edited 2007-10-08 19:41:27]
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102IAHexpress
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 27):
That link is also ridiculously outdated from the year 2000.

Sadly this type of discourse has become too common on this site.
N353SK actually provided a source with hard facts and numbers which is rare on this site and your reaction is to call it ridiculously outdated. Year 2000 stats are not necessarily obsolete either, considering airlines and airports are just now starting to come back to their pre 9/11 numbers.

In any event, thanks N353SK I appreciated the link.


As far as DFW goes...It's a great domestic hub and so-so international hub. That's just the way it is.
 
MAH4546
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 28):
N353SK actually provided a source with hard facts and numbers which is rare on this site and your reaction is to call it ridiculously outdated. Year 2000 stats are not necessarily obsolete either, considering airlines and airports are just now starting to come back to their pre 9/11 numbers.

Yes, it is outdated. Things have changed drastically. It is great that somebody is providing a source, but a source from 2000 is simply not valid today.

In 2000, United had a mini-hub in Miami, US Airways' largest hub was Pittsburgh, Dallas was a hub for Delta, and America West hubbed in Columbus. Things aren't the same. You can't use those numbers to support a debate about today's traffic figures.

In this case the source is entirely obsolete.

[Edited 2007-10-08 20:20:56]
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SkyyMaster
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:25 am

Quoting Rfields5421 (Reply 21):
Geography is a killer for the DFW and IAH airports as far as international travel to Europe and Asia.

This pretty well nails it. Look at a map. Given the fact the O & D feed at DFW isn't that great, they need cnx traffic for European services. Aside from destinations in Texas, and the southwestern U.S., getting to Europe from most other places west of Dallas/Ft. Worth is more convenient through other cities such as DEN, ORD, or any number of east coast destinations (or LAX and SFO if in California). As one poster pointed out, why would someone in Denver fly southeast to DFW to get to Europe when they can fly a more direct routing east to ORD, DTW, JFK, etc? DFW is well positioned as a domestic hub, however, it's just not so much for international traffic, especially to Europe and Latin America. Asia too. I live in Nashville, and if I want to get to Tokyo, flying to ORD or DTW would make more sense than going through DFW or IAH. Living in Dallas for 20 years, I saw lots of foreign carriers come and go and lots of other international service by AA and DL go by the wayside. I don't expect it to really change much, although 787's to the South Pacific would fit nicely for DFW, allowing pax to avoid the west coast.
 
N353SK
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:37 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 25):
But that table makes my point about AA and O/D. While Chicago has the bigger market than Dallas/Ft. Worth it is clear that AA has a bigger share.

Nobody ever disputed the simple fact that DFW has a larger market share than ORD for AA, but rather your claim that if an international route for AA doesn't work out of DFW it won't work out of ORD either due to the fact that DFW has higher market share for AA.
 
commavia
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:49 am

Everyone talks about DFW being "neglected." We don't have enough service, AA always neglects D/FW, etc.

Honestly - I just don't see it. I've lived in the Dallas area - and flown in and out of there - my entire life. In that time, I've never felt "neglected" by DFW Airport, AA, or any other airline.

Sure, I'd love to see nonstop flights to Amsterdam, Manchester, Madrid, Brussels, Munich, Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Seoul, Mumbai, and Dubai, among others, but the reality is that the market just can't support some or all of these.

However, that being said, as a life-long DFW traveler, I'm thrilled - and not complaining - about the level of service we currently receive. I love the fact that because I have one of the fastest, easiest to navigate and most convenient airports in the world at DFW, I can step out of my car and step through security in under 10 minutes, and be on the plane in less than 50 feet. I love that I have the choice of dozens, upon dozens, upon dozens, of flights every day to just about every major city consequence in America: Boston, New York, DC, Miami, Atlanta, Chicago, Houston, Denver, Las Vegas, Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego, etc., to say nothing of the extensive coverage of smaller cities around the U.S., plus virtually all major international destinations in North America and Europe, and Tokyo, frequently.

Again, perhaps I'm biased, but I'm not complaining: I think that the DFW market will continue to grow as the DFW economy continues to grow (which, as other posters alluded to, is happening - big time). And, as the Metroplex continues to globalize further - which, again, is definitely happening big time - more and more international service will come I'm sure. KLM to AMS is just the beginning. I could see Iberia, Aer Lingus, Air France, JAL, Air India, and QANTAS, among others, over the next 10-15 years.

Call me crazy (after all, this is A.net, and many love to do that already anyway), but I'm excited about the future, and I'm satisfied with the present!
 
Indy
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:21 am

Much of that will be impacted by how AA chooses to route their flights. If AA chooses to route their international flights through DFW it would work. AA chooses to go through ORD. How do you think AA international would do out of ORD if it weren't for the feed?
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
ConcordeBoy
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:51 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 33):
How do you think AA international would do out of ORD if it weren't for the feed?

Better than it'd do from DFW in the same ridiculous scenario.  Yeah sure
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
LAXdude1023
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:03 pm

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 26):
If you meant that AA defends DFW no-holds-barred, then I'd agree. If you meant that AA does something unethical (or worse) then you are out of line. AA competes fiercely, and most of the accusations against them taste of sour grapes.

I meant the first. I never implied that AA does anything unethical, I dont think they do. AA does however defend DFW more than any of its other hubs. They do have a "crush the competition" attitude at DFW. DFW is AA most important hub and it is a crucial piece to the AA network.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 32):
Sure, I'd love to see nonstop flights to Amsterdam, Manchester, Madrid, Brussels, Munich, Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Seoul, Mumbai, and Dubai, among others, but the reality is that the market just can't support some or all of these.

Very true indeed. Given the opprotunity, I do think DFW could support service to China.
It is what it is...
 
SkyyMaster
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:23 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 35):
They do have a "crush the competition" attitude at DFW.

While this is true, isn't it really the same for every airline and their primary hub? When JetBlue went into ATL with a couple of daily nonstops to LGB, DL went to 15 flights a day to LAX. B6 left, and the number of DL flights went back down. That's just one of many examples. One of the reasons AA was always so opposed to shedding the Wright Amendment was seeing competitors move in, as newcomers or leaving DFW completely in favor of DAL. Of course airlines are going to fiercely defend their home turf. This is why I do not expect to see any other carrier try to make DFW a hub or focus city. They simply cannot compete with AA, and AA sure as hell will make life hard on them if they try, which they should.
 
rfields5421
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:47 pm

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 36):
One of the reasons AA was always so opposed to shedding the Wright Amendment was seeing competitors move in, as newcomers or leaving DFW completely in favor of DAL. Of course airlines are going to fiercely defend their home turf. This is why I do not expect to see any other carrier try to make DFW a hub or focus city. They simply cannot compete with AA, and AA sure as hell will make life hard on them if they try, which they should.

Of course airlines defend their home turf.

AA worked very hard to keep Southwest out of DFW.

Now they have the best of both worlds with WN able to keep Jet Blue, Skybus and anyone else out of Love.
 
jsnww81
Posts: 2297
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:51 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 32):
I love that I have the choice of dozens, upon dozens, upon dozens, of flights every day to just about every major city consequence in America: Boston, New York, DC, Miami, Atlanta, Chicago, Houston, Denver, Las Vegas, Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego, etc., to say nothing of the extensive coverage of smaller cities around the U.S., plus virtually all major international destinations in North America and Europe, and Tokyo, frequently.

Agreed. What's more, the sheer mass of the DFW hub means that AA is still running mainline to a lot of cities which have seen downgrades from other airlines in the last few years. As an AA loyalist living in Chicago, I'm jealous that there are so many cities which see mainline from DFW (Memphis, Charlotte, Indianapolis, Omaha, Wichita, Oklahoma City, Colorado Springs, Jacksonville, Norfolk, Richmond, Washington Dulles, Baltimore, Hartford) that are flown by Eagle ERJs from Chicago. There are some cities (Sacramento, Oakland, Burbank, Ontario, and soon Portland) which AA doesn't even serve from ORD.

Everyone thinks it'd be groovy to have more international service from their home city (and admittedly, I'm spoiled living in Chicago, where AA has a fairly robust international operation) but the AA hub at DFW is a powerhouse, with or without all sorts of sexy global destinations. Besides, some of us remember the 1980s, when AA's international service at DFW was pretty much limited to Mexico City, Gatwick and Paris, and maybe a few spots up in Canada.
 
Indy
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:05 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 34):
Better than it'd do from DFW in the same ridiculous scenario.

Can you prove that?
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
LAXdude1023
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:49 pm

Quoting Jsnww81 (Reply 38):
Agreed. What's more, the sheer mass of the DFW hub means that AA is still running mainline to a lot of cities which have seen downgrades from other airlines in the last few years.



Quoting Jsnww81 (Reply 38):
Everyone thinks it'd be groovy to have more international service from their home city (and admittedly, I'm spoiled living in Chicago, where AA has a fairly robust international operation) but the AA hub at DFW is a powerhouse, with or without all sorts of sexy global destinations. Besides, some of us remember the 1980s, when AA's international service at DFW was pretty much limited to Mexico City, Gatwick and Paris, and maybe a few spots up in Canada.

Well said and I completely agree. ORD is definately a very important piece of the AA puzzle, but DFW is their most important and biggest piece. I think people tend to be equate the most international hub with the most important hub. Thats important, but DFW is the AA powerhouse. Much like ORD is for UA.
It is what it is...
 
elmothehobo
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:11 pm

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 5):
I think I read somewhere that FCO will be dropping below 'daily' frequency for both ORD and JFK, but take that with a grain of salt.

It will drop to 4 weekly flights from O'Hare and 3 weekly from Kennedy. This allows the station to remain open yearound with a daily flight.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 5):
and AA doesn't really have any spare 777's for new routes.

AA would never put a 777 on DFW-FCO, let alone any FCO route.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 5):
Maybe the upcoming ORD-EZE?? I do hope they bring back DFW-ZRH though, I'd love to fly that route sometime!!

The 763 freed from DFW-ZRH goes to JFK-STN.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 6):
I'm pretty sure Delta sends a lot more through ATL then AA does through DFW, and relies far more heavily on ATL than AA relies on one hub individually.

ATL is also 700 miles to the East. Much better located for European connections than Dallas.
 
LAXdude1023
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:27 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 34):
Better than it'd do from DFW in the same ridiculous scenario.

Its the beauty of the hub system. What would airports like DFW, ATL, and MSP look like if they werent hubs? Probably not much.
It is what it is...
 
Indy
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Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Does AA Neglect DFW?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:56 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 41):
I have overwhelming evidence to support my case.

Thats not called evidence. Just because a traveler chooses path A instead of path B doesn't make A the better path. Your evidence is the same as OJ saying he didn't do it. That is overwhelming evidence right? ORD may have been better 20 or 30 years ago. I'm sure if you compared the DFW market of 30 years ago to today it wouldn't look even close. Airlines creatures of habit (to a fault at times). Ego tends to drive business decisions as well. AA wouldn't change if they had a gun pointed to their head because they don't want to give up any kind of market share to UA. They are already 2nd place in that market as it is. They don't want to fall further behind.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
ConcordeBoy
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:05 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 43):
What would airports like DFW, ATL, and MSP look like if they werent hubs?

Not so sure about lumping ATL into that group, particularly seeing as it often vies for the #2 position of total O&D in USA airports behind LAX. While it surely wouldn't be processing 80M+ pax per year, it'd be no PIT either.

Quoting Indy (Reply 44):
Thats not called evidence.

Oh but it is. Droll that you're too busy over-"analyzing", and I use that word quite lightly in relation to you, in your attempt to find any data to support your fanciful assertion--- to actually realize thus.

First rule of aviation allocation:
barring mitigating factors that be, airlines will focus their operation on where they can derive the most amount of revenue in conjunction with the least amount and type of opportunity cost(s). Slot situation notwithstanding, ORD actually benefits from mitigating factors; so far as route allocation is concerned; over DFW... which 1) further invalidates your already-weak argument and 2) goes a long way to explain why, as mentioned above, the airline actually chooses ORD for a greater amount of the operations in question, over DFW.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
LAXdude1023
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Does AA Neglect DFW?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:52 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 45):
Not so sure about lumping ATL into that group, particularly seeing as it often vies for the #2 position of total O&D in USA airports behind LAX. While it surely wouldn't be processing 80M+ pax per year, it'd be no PIT either.

ATL, #2 O&D? Im not sure about that. Do you have a source? ATL isnt any more special than DFW. It even has less people living in the area. The only thing that makes it what it is is just the fact that there is a huge airport there.
It is what it is...
 
Indy
Posts: 3941
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Does AA Neglect DFW?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:11 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 45):
First rule of aviation allocation:
barring mitigating factors that be, airlines will focus their operation on where they can derive the most amount of revenue in conjunction with the least amount and type of opportunity cost(s). Slot situation notwithstanding, ORD actually benefits from mitigating factors; so far as route allocation is concerned; over DFW... which 1) further invalidates your already-weak argument and 2) goes a long way to explain why, as mentioned above, the airline actually chooses ORD for a greater amount of the operations in question, over DFW.

Provide facts please. Real data. Not an assumption that because AA is doing it that it must be right. Or that ORD is by default the right place and the simple existence of AA in that market is right over DFW. Your position assume that AA's model can in no way be flawed. And if their model was in no way flawed the would have no financial troubles.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
SkyyMaster
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Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:34 am

Does AA Neglect DFW?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 2):
Now they have the best of both worlds with WN able to keep Jet Blue, Skybus and anyone else out of Love.

Exactly. You can bet once the WA officially goes away, AA will have a very limited, if any presence at DAL. It would not surprise me to see them just sit on the gates they have and not use them just to keep potential competion out. Whatever service they would have would likely be limited to their ORD and MIA hubs, with maybe a couple of flights to New York and LA. They got exactly what they wanted out of the Love deal, and in esssence so did Southwest.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

Does AA Neglect DFW?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:50 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 46):
Do you have a source?

Sure do. Latest edition of First Equity's Aviation & Aerospace Almanac. Since the end of the last decade, ATL's been right behind LAX in total O&D. Slips behind LAS in domestic-only O&D, and placed 4th in that a few times over the decade as well. Keep in mind that the data are airport-specific, and not city/metro-specific.

Here's a sample of some of the older Almanac data that I've compiled here: RE: Biggest O&D Airports (by ConcordeBoy Nov 28 2004 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting Indy (Reply 47):
Provide facts please. Real data.

Not that facts have any bearing your your (lack of) reality, but tell me, what would you like it comparing?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

Does AA Neglect DFW?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 46):
ATL, #2 O&D? Im not sure about that. Do you have a source? ATL isnt any more special than DFW. It even has less people living in the area. The only thing that makes it what it is is just the fact that there is a huge airport there.

Um, yeah dude its called common knowledge. Its discussed here pretty much all the time, and we discuss the numbers every year when they come out.

Quoting Indy (Reply 47):
Provide facts please. Real data. Not an assumption that because AA is doing it that it must be right. Or that ORD is by default the right place and the simple existence of AA in that market is right over DFW.

What are you even TALKING about? You want facts and data that confirm Chicago is Chicago, and not Dallas? Are you trying to say that Chicago, one of this nation's top economic centers, deserves to be served less than DFW, which is not?

Don't forget the, um, IDK, existence of TWO superhubs that coexist there happily?

Perhaps YOU could offer us some sources or data? O/D statistics? Passenger demographics? I mean, if AA does it wrong, then clearly do the slew of international carriers that service ORD and not DFW. We'll want to inform them, immediately

NS
 
CO777DAL
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:01 am

Does AA Neglect DFW?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:44 am

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 48):
Exactly. You can bet once the WA officially goes away, AA will have a very limited, if any presence at DAL. It would not surprise me to see them just sit on the gates they have and not use them just to keep potential competion out. Whatever service they would have would likely be limited to their ORD and MIA hubs, with maybe a couple of flights to New York and LA. They got exactly what they wanted out of the Love deal, and in esssence so did Southwest.

And CO will do gangbusters on DAL-EWR. They have already locked up DAL-IAH (16 flights a day highest frequency in their entire system). Amazing the complete lack of competition at DAL.

As for AA at DFW, with hubs/focus cities at MIA, ORD, JFK, LAX… why on earth would they need DFW to be a huge international gateway. AA can better utilize their resources and fly international from one of these other cities. DFW geography works great as a good domestic hub, but with AA other hubs/focus cities, DFW metro area is just not as appealing.
Worked Hard. Flew Right. Farewell, Continental. Thanks for the memories.

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