DAL767400ER
Topic Author
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:24 pm

...albeit only 3 EAS routes:
http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/071009/128290.html

Quote:
CINCINNATI, Oct. 9, 2007 (PRIME NEWSWIRE) -- Delta Air Lines (NYSE:DAL - News) will offer customers in Cape Girardeau, Mo., Jackson, Tenn., and Owensboro, Ky. their first nonstop access to Delta's global network of destinations beginning Nov. 18 with new nonstop service between their hometowns and Delta's second-largest hub at Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport. Delta Connection(r) carrier Big Sky Airlines will operate the new flights using 19-seat Beechcraft 1900D aircraft, featuring stand-up cabins.

At the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport, passengers will have connecting opportunities to more than 400 peak-day departures to 112 nonstop destinations.

In each market, Delta Connection(r) carrier Big Sky will initially operate one to two daily round-trip flights timed for convenient connections to and from Cincinnati.

These are three former EAS markets that used to be served by Regions Air with service to STL till that carrier went bust. But didn't the DOT award these cities to Big Sky months ago?
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:56 pm

Ho hum.

...dunno why I was excited before opening this.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1500
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:19 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Thread starter):
These are three former EAS markets that used to be served by Regions Air with service to STL till that carrier went bust. But didn't the DOT award these cities to Big Sky months ago?

That's correct, they did award these back during the summer. I guess this press release is mainly intended to give a formal start date for service, and provide the schedule.
Good goes around!
 
sq452
Posts: 994
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:49 am

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:16 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 1):
Ho hum.

...dunno why I was excited before opening this.

Maybe because you (like I did) thought that this was a DL mainline announcement...instead its just old news with really small aircraft that could fly into Lunken (LUK) Airport in Cincy if they want...ho hum indeed.
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
flyinryan99
Posts: 1428
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:54 am

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:33 pm

It's good to see they finally have announced the routes and they are going to be implemented. The sucky thing for the passengers as it is only 1 aircraft doing the flights. If there is a delay at any point of the day, there is no recovery. Hopefully we'll see Big Sky add additional cities to help boost the amount of aircraft and crews based in CVG.
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1500
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:46 pm

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 4):
It's good to see they finally have announced the routes and they are going to be implemented. The sucky thing for the passengers as it is only 1 aircraft doing the flights. If there is a delay at any point of the day, there is no recovery. Hopefully we'll see Big Sky add additional cities to help boost the amount of aircraft and crews based in CVG.

I wouldn't count on GQ doing too much to bolster the number of aircraft in CVG. They LOVE to spread their aircraft as thin as possible. On most days it works okay, but as you say, when one little thing goes wrong, it wreaks havoc on everything. I've been in HQ in Billings before on a bad day, and it was amazing to say the least, to see the problems that this system creates.
Good goes around!
 
764
Posts: 486
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 6:34 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:53 pm

OK, I love the Beech 1900, but I cetainly wouldn't talk about the cabin as "stand up cabin"..... Although to be fair I have to admit that I am 6'5".

Other than that great news for my folks in CGI. Too bad it's CVG and not ATL, cause that would make connections a lot easier for them.
 
sampa737
Posts: 463
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 2:20 am

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:15 pm

Jackson is about an hour southwest of Memphis. Would Jackson be any more advantageous than Memphis? Is it really that cost effective for an airline to set up shop for a flight or 2 so close to a larger city? Memphis has around 1.5 million inhabitants or more. Jackson? Where there is money to be made...
 
EXAAUADL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:48 am

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:38 pm

Owensboro will work, the other two are an example of EAS wasted tax payer money..... Jackson, TN should have nonstop flights to MEM codeshare with NW and CGI to STL. codeshare with AA.
 
skibum9
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:13 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:47 pm

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 3):
Maybe because you (like I did) thought that this was a DL mainline announcement...instead its just old news with really small aircraft that could fly into Lunken (LUK) Airport in Cincy if they want...ho hum indeed.

Are you kidding? You could charter that Island Air cherokee that flies those discreet "flights of fancy" out of LUK and it still be cheaper, faster and more comfortable. YAWN!
Tailwinds!!!
 
atrude777
Posts: 4258
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:20 pm

Good to see!

I am 45 minutes drive from CGI and if I find myself needing to ride Delta, I will check them out also!

At least they have a code share going...Great Lakes at MWA here needs working to do!

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
skibum9
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:13 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:52 pm

On to another related topic, why the heck does OWB need air service? It is only 25 miles from EVV which has plenty of air service. What a waste of taxpayer money!!!

Also, likewise PAH is only 39 miles from CGI. Another waste of taxpayer money!!! Crap like this proves that the EAS program is seriously flawed.
Tailwinds!!!
 
stlgph
Posts: 9059
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:54 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 11):
why the heck does OWB need air service? It is only 25 miles from EVV which has plenty of air service. What a waste of taxpayer money!!!

and you're wrong. it's about 50 miles, and to the Evansville airport ... actual drive time is probably 90 minutes or so

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 11):
likewise PAH is only 39 miles from CGI. Another waste of taxpayer money!!! Crap like this proves that the EAS program is seriously flawed.

and you're wrong again. it's a 74 mile drive, but there's no direct route or interstate -- drive time is at least 2 hours.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Lexy
Posts: 1265
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:05 am

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:18 pm

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 11):
why the heck does OWB need air service? It is only 25 miles from EVV which has plenty of air service. What a waste of taxpayer money!!!

It HAS NO air service. Do some research on it and you would see that. And it is about 50 miles to EVV which is a source on contention with OWB travellers for the most part..


In a poll back earlier this year conducted by the Owensboro Messenger Inquirer (their daily newspaper), more travellers in OWB wanted n/s service to BNA than anywhere else. CVG wasn't even on their radar, that's the joy of EAS flights! WOO HOO! Even with the knowledge that WN was a dominant player here, they still wanted the service. This is just governement force feeding people into a hub that is grossly overpriced to fly out of. At least that's my opinion.

FWIW, most people from OWB travel to SDF or (maybe less likely) BNA for their flights anyway. It's just cheaper for them to do so than to hop on a puddle hopper in EVV and then connect in the hubs. EVV would seem to me to be rather expensive to fly out of given the little competition is has. Just my  twocents 

[Edited 2007-10-10 05:26:35]
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
USPIT10L
Posts: 1870
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:24 am

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:05 pm

I've been waiting for DL to start service to MKL, although I would've expected it to start with EV from ATL. So much for an "all-jet" hub.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
skibum9
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:13 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:17 pm

Quoting Lexy (Reply 13):
It HAS NO air service.



I OBVIOUSLY stated that! My point is, why does it even deserve service? It ONLY has a population of 54,000. Why should American taxpayers fund flights to such a small population when all they have to do is get their lazy behinds in a car and drive for an hour or so. It is one thing for EAS to be used in states like Wyoming and Montana, but when it is used in a state like Kentucky where you have a number of options, it is a waste. Just because you are too dang lazy to drive an hour or so, it does not mean that you are entitled to have flights at your closest airport. Wake up...people in large cities, like Cincinnati or Washington D.C. regularly drive an hour or so to catch a flight. CVG to DAY, IAD and DCA to BWI. What do you want next, a runway paved in your backyard so the taxpayers can fund a private flight. What a waste of taxpayer money.

Quoting Lexy (Reply 13):
In a poll back earlier this year conducted by the Owensboro Messenger Inquirer (their daily newspaper), more travellers in OWB wanted n/s service to BNA than anywhere else. CVG wasn't even on their radar, that's the joy of EAS flights!

That's the waste of taxpayer money. Get in your car and drive.
Tailwinds!!!
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:35 pm

More CRJ or prop flights to/from CVG is NOT where DL needs to focus it's attention on CVG.
One Nation Under God
 
maiznblu_757
Posts: 4952
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 12:05 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:35 pm

I was really hoping to see year round service to TVC start this winter. Ah well.
 
skuertz
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:41 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:09 pm

It's sad they can't use Lunken more than CVG... Prices are horrific at CVG and passagers have almost no other option except driving to Dayton, Columbus, Indy, Louisville, or Lexington. Lunken has room to expand too. I wish another airline would look into that.
 
Lexy
Posts: 1265
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:05 am

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:14 pm

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 15):
That's the waste of taxpayer money. Get in your car and drive.

It wasn't a waste when AA had a hub at BNA. OWB had two or three flights a day on them to BNA and they filled up! So what's up with that? EItherway, if you hate it so bad, write your Congressman and tell him or her about it. But in any case it's not about "deserving" a flight. It's about having the demand for one and providing it with the help of government subsidies. In the case of OWB, I see nothing wrong with it and there's little you can do to prove they don't "deserve" it. If they can support the flight with help from the government and people actually use it, what's your beef?? You keep saying it's a waste, have you ever thought about all the other stuff the government "waste" money on?
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
skibum9
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:13 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:54 pm

Quoting Lexy (Reply 19):
If they can support the flight with help from the government and people actually use it, what's your beef??

What's my beef. It is simple abuse of the U.S. taxpayers. The demand you speak of is artifically generated by the U.S. taxpayers. You take away that subsidy, which reduces the fare, and that demand decreases because people would have to pay a fare that actually supports running that route. So where does it stop. Maybe we should use the EAS to set up flights in Bowling Green Kentucky, and every small city of 50,000 in the country, regardless that they are within a CONVENIENT drive to another airport in a larger city. Air travel is not an entitlement that should be funded by taxpayers. If OWB feels it deserves air service then let the local taxpayers fund it.

Yes I agree that the government wastes money on many things, this being one of them. Why should you advocate continual waste?

[Edited 2007-10-10 11:57:26]
Tailwinds!!!
 
access-air
Posts: 1576
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 5:30 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:08 pm

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 14):
That's the waste of taxpayer money. Get in your car and drive.

Well since you live in a city like CVG your opinion on this matter of outlying communities with propsed service into "your" hub city has little merit.

Not everyone should have to simply drive to a bigger city when an adequate and quite capable local airport that has supported an airline previously should be overlooked simply because people like yourself "think" its a waste of tax payers money to pay a little incentive money to get the ball rolling....I can think of plenty of other wastes of our tax payer money that goes unchallenged. So why are you so down on the EAS Subsidy? Maybe you should try living in a small community like CGI or OWB or MKL and get in your own car and drive 50+ miles to catch your flight..The first couple of times you might not mind the drive, however about after the 20th or 30th time I can guarantee that it will become a large pain in your ass not to mention your wallet!!!!!!!...Not only do you have the added expense of driving with gas and tolls, if they apply, you have to start your journey 2-3 times as early to make your flight.

Just for the the record, Jackson, Tn used to have Martin 404 prop and DC9 jet service with Southern Airways. Owensboro used to have Ozark with DC9s and FH-227s. Cape Girardeau used to also have Ozark DC9 and FH-227s. Maybe if these airlines had not pulled their service and stayed and tried to develope these markets further perhaps these communities might have grown sufficiently to never have lost their air service in the first place.
Of course after the local service airlines mentioned above left they did have commuter airlines, but some of them have permenatly lost their service and in the process it has hindered alot of smaller communities from growing by losing that air service.

However, one of the many reasons passenger loads go in the crapper in these types of EAS communities is because the airlines that are awarded the contracts are only given a minimum amount of seats that have to be provided per day or week or however they are monitored. There is no restriction on what the FLIGHT TIMES should be and whether they are well timed to actually connect to other airlines. However, in some other cases, the flights are CRAP and connectability is at the very least, totally impossible. In my honest opinion, if a commuter airline cannot provide an EAS community with fligths that actually benefit the community by proividing flights that actually connect into a hub rather than just satisfying a minimum seat requirement, then the Govt needs to take appropriate action. Is this a bit of re-regulation? Damned straight it is!! Since its Federal Subsidy, and the chosen airline is getting financial support from the Federal Govt, then they should provide adequate and quality service with scheduled times that are going to benefit the community not just the pocket books of the airline collecting the subsidy money!!!!
Once a commuter airline enters an EAS subsidized community, their main goal should be to develope that community to ultimately bring that community to a place whereby the subsidy dollar amount could be reduced or even eliminated. They shouldnt just shlep in and out providing the minimum of flights just to get the Govt to add to their bottum line and prop up their small infra structures. Unfortunately trying to get any commuter airline to put the proper resoruces into their smaller communities is just not in their list of priorities....So the small communities lose....And people like Skibum9 continue to bitch about EAS subsidy!!!!!!!

I think its good that these three communities are getting air service back EAS or no!!!!!!!!

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:19 pm

What Delta is doing in CVG is going to turn around and bite them in the ass I think. but it is all supply and demand. Delta has the supply and people are flying. Don't they have something like 80% of the traffic in Cinci? Even if a low-cost moves in (I think it'll happen eventually) the costs at CVG are a bit managable and they'll just lower fares but they won't be moved out.
What gets measured gets done.
 
skibum9
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:13 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:37 pm

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 20):
Well since you live in a city like CVG your opinion on this matter of outlying communities with propsed service into "your" hub city has little merit.

Obviously you have no idea of what it is like living in a hub city like Cincinnati. You have the OPTION of paying the highest airfares in the country and getting bent over and having every body cavity violated or you have the OPTION to DRIVE at least 50 miles to an another airport like DAY, CMH, LEX, SDF or IND. Just because I live in a hub city, do not assume that I, or many of the people that live here, benefit from it. Many of us, on an every increasing rate drive long distances, much longer than driving from OWB to EVV, to get a reasonable fare.

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 20):
Not everyone should have to simply drive to a bigger city when an adequate and quite capable local airport that has supported an airline previously should be overlooked simply because people like yourself "think" its a waste of tax payers money to pay a little incentive money to get the ball rolling....I can think of plenty of other wastes of our tax payer money that goes unchallenged.

Again I ask, why advocate using U.S. taxpayer money to eliminate a CONVENIENT drive? Air Service is NOT an entitlement. Why shouldn't people have to drive, what is the threshold of an acceptable drive distance and population for air service? And again, why should U.S. taxpayers fund it and not the local municipalities that want it. Just because you have a runway that is the right length and a building that can be used as a terminal is not an adequate arguement. With your analogy we should expand EAS and subsidize flights to every airport that has a runway over 6,000 ft.?

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 20):
Maybe you should try living in a small community like CGI or OWB or MKL and get in your own car and drive 50+ miles to catch your flight

See my first point. Obviously you are clueless on CVG. Many of us drive 50+ miles weekly to travel. Maybe we should demand a similar program to subsidize our fares and have the U.S. taxpayer fund it.
Tailwinds!!!
 
Lexy
Posts: 1265
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:05 am

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:09 pm

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 20):
What's my beef. It is simple abuse of the U.S. taxpayers. The demand you speak of is artifically generated by the U.S. taxpayers. You take away that subsidy, which reduces the fare, and that demand decreases because people would have to pay a fare that actually supports running that route. So where does it stop. Maybe we should use the EAS to set up flights in Bowling Green Kentucky, and every small city of 50,000 in the country, regardless that they are within a CONVENIENT drive to another airport in a larger city. Air travel is not an entitlement that should be funded by taxpayers. If OWB feels it deserves air service then let the local taxpayers fund it.

Yes I agree that the government wastes money on many things, this being one of them. Why should you advocate continual waste?

I was going to reply, but what's the use? You have no clue so forget it.
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
skibum9
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:13 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:49 pm

Quoting Lexy (Reply 23):
I was going to reply, but what's the use? You have no clue so forget it.

What a typical response for someone that can't substantiate their position! You have failed to address any of the issues that I presented yet you say I have no clue.
Tailwinds!!!
 
access-air
Posts: 1576
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 5:30 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 22):
See my first point. Obviously you are clueless on CVG. Many of us drive 50+ miles weekly to travel. Maybe we should demand a similar program to subsidize our fares and have the U.S. taxpayer fund it.


Yes, I am clueless on CVG...I dont live in that city, but I am a Travel Agent and have been such for 18 years. So, I understand that the CVG area residents are being bent over a barrel for air fares....But how can you compare living in CVG and maybe having to drive to DAY CMH or SDF to get a better fare versus living in MKL or OWB with no air service and having to drive to a city like CVG or SDF or the like????
....If YOU make a choice to drive 50+ miles to fly out of CMH, DAY or SDF or IND because you cannot hack the fares out of CVG, then thats YOUR choice.....Really, how much are you really saving by driving all that way???
Reminds me of the people that refuse to fly out of Moline to Phoenix because the air fare is 20-40 higher than out of OHare yet they will gladly shell out all the money in gas and tolls and parking fees to drive into OHare to save that measly 20-40 bucks per person....
I live in s city, Sterling/Rock Falls (SQI) that has had many airlines: Illini Airways, Ozark Air Lines, Britt Airways, Propheter Aviation and finally Great Lakes. Now we have nothing!!!!!!

So we now have to drive 50 miles to Rockford, 60 Miles to Moline or 100 miles to Chigago......We used to have service into OHare and like the example I gave, the community here wanted the service but the airlines only wanted to stay if they could get the subsidy....There was little co-operation with the cities and the airlines and in the end the flights got reversed out of ORD, Ozark did it, Britt did it and Lakes did it and shortly thereafter abandoned SQI...
And yes, its a damned pain in the arse to have to drive 50-60 miles to get on a plane especially if you have to check in 90 min-120 mins prior to flight time. This is even worse if the weather is bad in the winter, driving wise!!!

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 22):
With your analogy we should expand EAS and subsidize flights to every airport that has a runway over 6,000 ft.?

Oh get real, why would you place a subsidy in a city that never had it in the first place....I think you are taking my comments way too superficially!!!!
And who said I was ever against local city governements kicking in some of that subsidy money??? I may not have mentioned it but that is a great idea, if they want air service they should all work together to make sure that if there are any local busniess people that make business trips to and from a hub, perhaps they should choose to use the local airline first, thereby guaranteeing the plane will be doing something besides flying with few passengers....However the EAS Subsidy is a necessary requirement in some cities where passenger loads are low....But remember that these Commuter Airlines also deliver goods and mail to outof the way areas too, they are not just carrying passenegrs.

Another thing that might ease the subsidy costs might be if the FAA de-regulates 19 passeneger aircraft from Part 121 back to Part 135. The extra costs involved in maintaining a 19 seat aircraft under Part 121 is the reason that EAS subsidies have gone thru the roof.....Check the EAS subsidy payouts post 1997 when Part 135 (10-30 pax planes) commuters were forced to covnert to Part 121... 9/11 made it even worse....

Suck it up, live with it....Until you find an airline that that isnt a whore to EAS subsidy (pardon to anyone that works for Great Lakes or Big Sky or any other carriers that thrive on subsidy) the Federally fiunded EAS subsidy is here to stay....
I will just bet that if Bill Britt was still in business, he could get the job done Subsidy FREE!!!

So like I said, of these cities I hope that they all succeed with their new air service....Perhaps if it works out maybe they could possibly continue the service and stop the subsidy, as I said, that should be the ultimate goal of a Commuter Airline entering into a new market that recieves subsidy....
We'll just have to wait and see.....

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
skibum9
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:13 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:54 pm

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 25):
....But how can you compare living in CVG and maybe having to drive to DAY CMH or SDF to get a better fare versus living in MKL or OWB with no air service and having to drive to a city like CVG or SDF or the like????

I feel that it is a very realistic and reasonable comparison. As has been stated, and you can verify on Mapquest, Owensboro is only a 40 mile drive to Evansville. EVV has a good amount of air service to the likes of ORD, CVG, ATL and others. I have never stated that they should drive to a hub. It is a very convenient drive, and that is my point about the service at OWB. Let's face it, the reason that people in OWB use the service, when subsidized, is because fares are reasonable. If the subsidy wasn't there than demand would drop off. So it is ultimately about the fares, which stilumates the demand in the first place, and I still contenf that having air service in EVV is a convenient drive for those who would use OWB. U.S. taxpayers should not have to fund this.

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 25):
Really, how much are you really saving by driving all that way???



Are you ready to catch your breath on this one....significant savings. We are getting raped at CVG. Since you are a travel agent I am sure you know that CVG is the MOST expensive city in the U.S. to originate a flight. To give you an example, three weeks ago I had to go to Baltimore on a last minute business trip. The fare on DL out of CVG was $1500 in coach, the fare on FL out of DAY was $400. Both were direct flights. So out of CVG, we are talking a lot more than the $20 or $40 savings that you surmize. In fact many major businesses are requiring their employees to look at alternative airports and make the drive. Besides looking at the fares, look at the airport usage statistics for proof where year-over-year where CVG is on continual O&D decline while cities like DAY are on the rise because of the displace CVG traffic. So with fare differences like this it virtually the same as having no service for an ever increasing population in Cincinnati, unless you have an endless supply of money. So I ask, what is really the difference between a CVG and OWB. OWB gets subsidized to decrease their fares and stimulate demand to have a flight when they have a viable alternative 40 miles away, where as CVG, with a much larger population, gets over-charged which stimulates decreased demand, when their options are all 50+ miles away?

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 25):
And who said I was ever against local city governements kicking in some of that subsidy money??? I may not have mentioned it but that is a great idea, if they want air service they should all work together to make sure that if there are any local busniess people that make business trips to and from a hub, perhaps they should choose to use the local airline first, thereby guaranteeing the plane will be doing something besides flying with few passengers....However the EAS Subsidy is a necessary requirement in some cities where passenger loads are low....But remember that these Commuter Airlines also deliver goods and mail to outof the way areas too, they are not just carrying passenegrs.

I am glad that we agree on the local city goverments kicking in. Personally I think they should kick all of it in, unless we re-regulates the industry, which ain't gonna happen. With that said, when you look at EAS, it was originally intended for states like Alaska, North Dakota etc., where population centers were small and hundreds of miles apart. They required not only some form of passenger and cargo service, thus essential. 40 miles doesn't constitute "essential." There are literally hundreds of cities the size of Owensboro that are just as far or further than OWB is to EVV, and they don't have the service. Again, what makes OWB so special? If you look at the petitions, you will see that the city of Owensboro and local businesses provide recommendations on the choice of service. So going off your point, they have banded together, why should they not fund it themselves locally?

Another point, if you look at the whole EAS program, there is even dispute within the federal government ranks. A proposal was floated to reduce the total funding to something like $50 million a year, down from something like $107 million. That is a sure sign that at the federal government level they even question the viability of it for a good number of cities.

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 25):
Suck it up, live with it....Until you find an airline that that isnt a whore to EAS subsidy (pardon to anyone that works for Great Lakes or Big Sky or any other carriers that thrive on subsidy) the Federally fiunded EAS subsidy is here to stay....

And it should be reviewed and reduced like most all other federal government programs. There is so much fraud and corruption in the system, it is rediculous. Instead of fixing the problems all we get is new taxes, people saying suck it up, and then those same people turning around a complaining about taxes. So with that said, I will not advocate the use of a program, like EAS, for a city like OWB, which has a viable option 40 miles away. I can however support it for its real intent, small population centers scattered hundreds of miles apart.

[Edited 2007-10-10 16:09:50]
Tailwinds!!!
 
Lexy
Posts: 1265
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:05 am

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:50 am

Hey 'Bum,

How many times have you driven from OWB to EVV. I doubt very many. I used to live in that part of KY and I know that drive ALL TOO WELL. No, the people of Owensboro wouldn't drive that either. If they did, then they would be doing it by now. End of story.

Until you have lived in that region and you understand that region and its people, shut up about it. You really, REALLY have no clue. I, on the other hand, have over 20 years of experience to back up my statements about it. Now, do you want to continue to entertain me with your clueless drivel or what?
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
skibum9
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:13 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting Lexy (Reply 27):
Hey 'Bum,

How many times have you driven from OWB to EVV. I doubt very many. I used to live in that part of KY and I know that drive ALL TOO WELL. No, the people of Owensboro wouldn't drive that either. If they did, then they would be doing it by now. End of story.

Until you have lived in that region and you understand that region and its people, shut up about it. You really, REALLY have no clue. I, on the other hand, have over 20 years of experience to back up my statements about it. Now, do you want to continue to entertain me with your clueless drivel or what?

If you want to make this personal then that really tells me what kind of person you really are.

You still have yet to discuss any issues that I raised other than it is a long drive or that a previous flight between OWB and BNA was full. Why is it so difficult to answer my questions? Why should U.S. taxpayers fund this route and not the local taxpayers? If this route is funded why not fund every other city in the U.S. that has a similar demographic or are further out from an airport with existing service? What makes OWB so special that you feel they are entitled to this funding? What exactly is so prohibitive about the drive? If you are so sure of yourself then enlighten us.

I would suggest that until you can act like an adult and debate the issue maturely, other than telling one to shut up or that it is drivel, that you should just dissapear. You add no value to the conversation.

[Edited 2007-10-10 18:20:07]

[Edited 2007-10-10 18:22:55]

[Edited 2007-10-10 18:23:46]
Tailwinds!!!
 
SkyyMaster
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:34 am

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:34 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 14):
I OBVIOUSLY stated that! My point is, why does it even deserve service? It ONLY has a population of 54,000.

EAS to some cities is a total waste, and MKL is one of them. Regions Air was averaging 2 pax per flight on it's two flights to STL before it lost the contract. What makes Big Sky, or any airline for that matter, think they are going to get any better LF's? MKL is only 80 miles from Memphis and it's not a hard drive. I recently pulled up a listing of all EAS cities. Over half of them are reasonably close enough to an airport with existing service that does not justify subsidized (read taxpayer expense) service. I can see EAS for cities in large western states where there are great distances between population centers, but come on. Jackson and Owensboro both are a waste of taxpayers money, not that the government ever notices things like that.
 
Lexy
Posts: 1265
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:05 am

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:36 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 28):
You add no value to the conversation.

And you have? All you've done is b!tched and moaned because your tax money is helping this community, and others, have a choice. Why don't you take your t-ball bat and go home with your little primadonna attitude towards EAS routes. The communites that have this type of service are granted that by the governmenttn because they ask for it, or apply for it, or fall under the criteria for it, or whatever else. Hell, it helped Owensboro to have a man like Wendell Ford in office. God knows that man put his sweat and blood into making sure his hometown was taken care of on Capital Hill. Now, if you can prove to me and everybody else that traffic would fall off the globe if you pulled the federal money out of these routes and just simply relied on bookings and walkups, then I might....JUST MIGHT, take you slightly serious. Until then, you are just pissin' in the wind man. And I said it once, and i'll say it again. Until you know that market, the region, and its people, you have absolutely no clue. Fortunatly for you, I have one. Matter of fact, I am planning on going up there this weekend. I'll just stop by the airport and ask the director their thoughts on the matter.
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
skibum9
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:13 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:08 am

Quoting Lexy (Reply 30):
And you have? All you've done is b!tched and moaned because your tax money is helping this community, and others, have a choice. Why don't you take your t-ball bat and go home with your little primadonna attitude towards EAS routes. The communites that have this type of service are granted that by the governmenttn because they ask for it, or apply for it, or fall under the criteria for it, or whatever else. Hell, it helped Owensboro to have a man like Wendell Ford in office. God knows that man put his sweat and blood into making sure his hometown was taken care of on Capital Hill. Now, if you can prove to me and everybody else that traffic would fall off the globe if you pulled the federal money out of these routes and just simply relied on bookings and walkups, then I might....JUST MIGHT, take you slightly serious. Until then, you are just pissin' in the wind man. And I said it once, and i'll say it again. Until you know that market, the region, and its people, you have absolutely no clue. Fortunatly for you, I have one. Matter of fact, I am planning on going up there this weekend. I'll just stop by the airport and ask the director their thoughts on the matter.

And yet again you have failed to answer any of the questions I raised, which are all legitimate. You just sit their and thump your chest. And now you state that you are going to ask the OWB airport manager, who is biased, his thoughts on the matter. I would say that it is you who have totally proved that they are clueless. I would respect you much more if you would just come out and say "I don't know" if you can't answer the questions. At least I am straight up in saying that I don't believe in federal government handouts unless they are warranted, and I believe OWB's use of EAS is unwarranted, thus a waste. If you think that is a primadonna attitude, then so be it. You have done nothing to change that opinion, despite this being a forum for open debate.
Tailwinds!!!
 
sq452
Posts: 994
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:49 am

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:40 am

Quoting Skuertz (Reply 17):
It's sad they can't use Lunken more than CVG... Prices are horrific at CVG and passagers have almost no other option except driving to Dayton, Columbus, Indy, Louisville, or Lexington. Lunken has room to expand too. I wish another airline would look into that.

There was a time back in the day that they were thinking of reinforcing the runway at LUK to accomodate 737's so WN could fly there possibly. Problem is that while the runway is long enough (barely), there is absolutely no terminal there capable of handling passenger flights. While the existing terminal building is nice and historic and provides a bit of nostalgia for those that like to remember the days when passenger service was out of LUK, modern day amenities are nil (although the restaurant there was pretty good). There is also no rental car facilities there, but I'm sure that would change if they built a new terminal.

They could very much build a new terminal capable of handling regional jets that would be rather quaint. Bottom line is that is possible. Moving operation to LUK for airlines that have small operations at CVG makes sense if the airport could offer a significant competitive advantage over CVG. Passengers coming to Cincinnati would also prefer it as LUK is a stones throw from downtown and the major universities (UC, Xavier, NKU).

UA, US, AA, would probably move there given their operations are small and the Cincinnati market is pure O&D for them. Maybe once in a blue moon you would see someone make a connection from one of those carriers to points elsewhere on DL, but we all know DL owns CVG practically. I bet they could easily fill a 7:30 AM departure out of LUK to ORD and LGA on an ERJ. Sad that they are not trying for this.

Main problem is the damn NIMBY's and people that live around the airport that think the "noise" would be too much and hurt their property value. I lived near Lunken when i was growing up and the noise really was not an issue. It's not like there would be 50 Regional Jets departing there everyday...

Interestingly enough, one of the local radio stations conducted a poll once that showed that 84% of respondents or something like that were in favor of commercial service at lunken.

[Edited 2007-10-10 21:56:31]
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
nickstyro
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:50 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:19 am

The main problem with Lunken is the same that stopped service in the first place. It sits in a valley so its prone to fog and due to its prox. to the Ohio river should there be heavy rainfall there is the serious potential for flooding(the last major flood happened in 1937, but the water was about 3/4 of the way up the control tower).
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:02 pm

Quoting Lexy (Reply 27):
Until you have lived in that region and you understand that region and its people, shut up about it.

What does this have to do with EAS subsidies? You're using pure emotion and nothing else.

The bottomline is that these subsidies are a waste because they benefit basically no one except for a few wealthy travelers. Even with subisidies, flying out of these EAS markets is usually quite expensive, so most people will not fly from there anyway. I wouldn't have a problem with these subsidies if they provided a benefit that would be enjoyed by many, but in reality EAS subsidies are just pork designed to benefit a privileged few.
 
stlgph
Posts: 9059
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:50 pm

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 11):
On to another related topic, why the heck does OWB need air service? It is only 25 miles from EVV which has plenty of air service. What a waste of taxpayer money!!!

Also, likewise PAH is only 39 miles from CGI. Another waste of taxpayer money!!! Crap like this proves that the EAS program is seriously flawed.

you're wrong on both counts.
Owensboro is about 45 miles or so from Evansville.
from the Evansville *airport* it's a 90 minute or so drive.
Owensboro is a metro area of 100,000 + on its own

also ... Paducah to Cape Girardeau is 75 miles ... but there is no direct route ... it is a 2 hour drive minimum.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
sq452
Posts: 994
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:49 am

RE: Delta To Add 3 New Routes From CVG

Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:12 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 22):
Obviously you have no idea of what it is like living in a hub city like Cincinnati. You have the OPTION of paying the highest airfares in the country and getting bent over and having every body cavity violated or you have the OPTION to DRIVE at least 50 miles to an another airport like DAY, CMH, LEX, SDF or IND. Just because I live in a hub city, do not assume that I, or many of the people that live here, benefit from it. Many of us, on an every increasing rate drive long distances, much longer than driving from OWB to EVV, to get a reasonable fare.

If you live north of I-275 in Cincinnati anyway, Dayton airport is only a few minutes more of a drive, sometimes equidistant or closer than CVG depending on where you live (West Chester, Mason, Lebanon, Middletown, Colerain, etc.). The joke is DAY is "Cincinnati North Airport".

CMH also isn't a bad drive, although significantly longer than DAY.

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 26):
Are you ready to catch your breath on this one....significant savings.

Definitely  thumbsup  the savings are unbelieveable. I had to go back to Cincinnati when I was in Boston. It was a leave Wednesday back Friday sort of deal so it was midweek. Well, BOS>CVG was $1100 on Delta roundtrip (this was 2 months in advance!). BOS>DAY on a non stop comair flight was $220 roundtrip. Ever since DL added that Comair flight non-stop to Boston its saved so much of a hassle for me. So there was a cost savings of $800 some odd dollars, and DAY airport is only 20 minutes more of a drive than CVG from my family's house in Cincinnati.

What really strikes a nerve with a lot of people is that a lot of the time the fares to Dayton will be cheaper AND they have to CONNECT in CVG. Had this happen once where I went BOS>CVG>DAY>CVG>BOS and the flight was $400 something roundtrip, but if i just did BOS>CVG>BOS it was $800 something. The irony was that both fares had the same flight on the BOS>CVG sector, so in theory DL was saying "if you fly to Dayton it will be cheaper, but if you get off in Cincinnati it will cost more."

It's so ridiculous and really doesn't make sense to me. If you've never done a CVG>DAY sector, its a lot of fun, about half the plane tries to get off the flight. I've heard "can you scan my boarding pass anyway and I just won't board?" and all sorts of excuses. If you had carry on and a one way ticket you could theoretically just blow off the CVG>DAY sector. If you are roundtrip i heard DL will cancel your return if you don't show for that sector.

SO DAM LAME!!!!
SIN > CVG > BOS