ikramerica
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Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:38 pm

With the 787 schedule slip, and the amount of resources devoted to this program, it is likely the 748 program is now squeezed. Has Boeing mentioned anything about this program? I don't think cargo carriers care too much about a delay 2 years out if they know about it in time (as they can continue to fly the older planes for a month or two more), and LH has plenty of time to plan, but as an aviation fan, I'd sure like to know the status...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:45 pm

I have heard nothing from local Seattle media or local Seattle contacts. The first time I heard about it was from a fellow airliner.net member in one of the threads yesterday.
 
mop357
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:36 pm

When are they going building to start the 748? I can't wait to see actual pictures of the airplane instead of animations.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:43 pm

Quoting Mop357 (Reply 2):
When are they going building to start the 748? I can't wait to see actual pictures of the airplane instead of animations.

Plan is next year, as I recall.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:47 pm

My guess is that the technology the B748 share with B787 will be delayed?
Swedish media claim that parts from Honeywell has been delayed to the B748...

[Edited 2007-10-10 15:53:36]
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
ikramerica
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:32 pm

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 4):
My guess is that the technology the B748 share with B787 will be delayed?

I don't see why this would be so. The engines are not delayed, the avionics don't seem to be the bottleneck in the 787 program, so not sure why the 787 technology would be delayed.

Also, Boeing already knows how to build 747s, the major work on the wings has been completed.

I would imagine the main reason for any delay is allocation of resources to other programs and lack of demand for the 748i model. I was just wondering if any insider types had heard about any delays. The 748i was already quietly pushed back by at least 1 quarter when they had no pending orders a year ago. It left more room for F deliveries, which were in demand.
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Stitch
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:33 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
I would imagine the main reason for any delay is allocation of resources to other programs and lack of demand for the 748i model. I was just wondering if any insider types had heard about any delays. The 748i was already quietly pushed back by at least 1 quarter when they had no pending orders a year ago. It left more room for F deliveries, which were in demand.

I don't recall the basis of the original rumor - was it that the 747-8 Intercontinental was to be delayed, or the entire 747-8 program (including the freighter) was to be delayed?
 
JRDC930
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:57 am

I think delays regarding the 748 (i) are a mute point, as a decision made by a large potential customer a while back, has made it clear no one else is going to buy that Lemon. As for the 748F, i doubt there will be much delay if any, the plane is essentially finished, and no industry sources I've read or heard from have lead me to believe otherwise.
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
 
ikramerica
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:07 am

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 7):
I think delays regarding the 748 (i) are a mute point, as a decision made by a large potential customer a while back, has made it clear no one else is going to buy that Lemon. As for the 748F, i doubt there will be much delay if any, the plane is essentially finished, and no industry sources I've read or heard from have lead me to believe otherwise.

So, you have no information and nothing to contribute. Sure is a round about way of saying it...

BTW - it's moot, not mute.
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ikramerica
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
I don't recall the basis of the original rumor - was it that the 747-8 Intercontinental was to be delayed, or the entire 747-8 program (including the freighter) was to be delayed?

I'm not asking about the original rumor. I'm asking about now, today, now that the 787 is officially delayed, if anyone has heard about the 748 being a casualty of this delay, since resources will remain devoted to the 787 6 months longer than originally anticipated.

The timely EIS of the 787 is far more important to Boeing than a 3 month slip in 748F certification (since the line would be nowhere near at max output and deliveries would not be delayed by much time, if any after the first few).

I was just wondering if there is any new buzz out there. So far, sounds like the answer is no.

And again, the 748i EIS slipped before and nobody even noticed, so it's not like the press and a.net are paying that much attention...  Wink

And just a heads up: a quick check of Boeing's website reveals that all EIS and certification information has been removed from the basic 747-8 informational pages. The projected timetable used to be listed quite clearly, and those dates were also included in descriptive paragraphs. Now the only thing detailed is the date of the first order for the plane and that Cargolux will take their first plane in "late 2009."

Things that make one go hmmm.......
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Stitch
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:19 am

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 7):
I think delays regarding the 748 (i) are a mute point, as a decision made by a large potential customer a while back, has made it clear no one else is going to buy that Lemon.

[b]Carls[b] is reporting that EK is taking 10 of them, along with 50 A350s, at the Dubai Air Show here Emirates To Announce 100 A350 And 20 747-8 (by Carls Oct 10 2007 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
I'm not asking about the original rumor. I'm asking about now, today, now that the 787 is officially delayed, if anyone has heard about the 748 being a casualty of this delay, since resources will remain devoted to the 787 6 months longer than originally anticipated.

Got it. Nothing here in Seattle or Everett.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:25 am

I think you will find the current worry, after the 787, is the 777F, not the 747-8.
 
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
BTW - it's moot, not mute

Ha Ha...  butthead  I dont know how many people here work for boeing or any one else involved in the program, are going to break silence, so i dont know who you want to get info from. My contribution is the one person I know working at boeing has not mentioned any delays or foreseeable delays based on info he has available... but i have noting to contribute, so go ahead.
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
 
patroni
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:53 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Thread starter):
I don't think cargo carriers care too much about a delay 2 years out if they know about it in time (as they can continue to fly the older planes for a month or two more),

Why should there be a difference between cargo and passenger airlines? Both will have to develop their fleet plans (e.g. sale of to-be-replaced aircraft) and network (e.g. keeping the "older" aircraft and using them on new routes etc.). Do you think that cargo carriers use less time to plan the deployment of their most expensive assets? If so - why?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:04 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 11):
I think you will find the current worry, after the 787, is the 777F, not the 747-8.

What's her problem? You'd think they'd have that one under control...
 
Norcal773
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:05 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
The first time I heard about it was from a fellow airliner.net member in one of the threads yesterday.

The fellow was slz396 who apparently heard it from Zeke. Put the rest together.
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
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Stitch
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:11 pm

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 15):
The fellow was slz396 who apparently heard it from Zeke. Put the rest together.

Yes, they make it quite clear who they believe is the best company out there, but I value much of what Zeke says because he has the operational background to back it up. As for Slz396, I figure he just likes to tweak the noses of the Boeing Boosters who like to tweak his (and other Airbus Aficionados') noses. It's a little dull, but it's harmless fun.

So I would not expect Zeke to just make it up. And now Clickhappy is mumbling about the 777F being a concern at Boeing.

Who knows, maybe Boeing is done for and we're looking at "Airbus Ascendant". *shrug*
 
ikramerica
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:12 pm

Quoting Patroni (Reply 13):
Why should there be a difference between cargo and passenger airlines? Both will have to develop their fleet plans (e.g. sale of to-be-replaced aircraft) and network (e.g. keeping the "older" aircraft and using them on new routes etc.). Do you think that cargo carriers use less time to plan the deployment of their most expensive assets? If so - why?

Because cargo cares less about product rollout and being in the newest planes, and 2 years is PLENTY of time to move to plan B. No cargo carrier is going to order a new model without having a contingency plan for delays, are they?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Norcal773
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:28 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
I value much of what Zeke says

Zeke in most cases knows what he's talking about as biased as he is.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
And now Clickhappy is mumbling about the 777F being a concern at Boeing.

Now, That would be a problem.  Sad
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
cygnuschicago
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:43 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17):
Because cargo cares less about product rollout and being in the newest planes, and 2 years is PLENTY of time to move to plan B.

Well, that would be pretty worisome - hopefully plan B is NOT switching to 777Fs. I cannot wait to see the 748F, she is sure to be a graceful lady.

As an aside, what was the planned roll-out? 7-4-8 (07-04-2008)?  Big grin
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FWI747
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:35 pm

From ATW (Paris Air show -Le Bourget)

http://www.atwonline.com/news/topic.html?topicID=43

Quoting :
"...Boeing expects to gain between 100 nm. and 200 nm. in range from some weight reduction studies that could take range to 8,200 nm..."

How much weight do they need to save to reach this target ?
Is it possible without using large CFRP parts ?

I read in the introduction of the Airport compatibility brochure, that "the passenger version will have a passenger count of 465" . I wonder if it's related to the weight saving chase or if it's only a typo...  scratchchin 

David
 
ikramerica
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:27 pm

Quoting FWI747 (Reply 20):
I read in the introduction of the Airport compatibility brochure, that "the passenger version will have a passenger count of 465" . I wonder if it's related to the weight saving chase or if it's only a typo...  

??

They have been saying this for quite a while. By putting non-revenue facilities in the crown over the main deck, they free up about 1.5 rows of Y space, or 15 seats.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
FWI747
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:34 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21):



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21):
By putting non-revenue facilities in the crown over the main deck, they free up about 1.5 rows of Y space, or 15 seats.

Yes, but it was before stretching the intercontinental version to match the length of the freighter model, which brought the seat count to 467 (from 450), as stated in the previous releases of Airport planing manuals.
My point was that from september edition, the passenger version lost 2 seats. Albeit insignificant this change may indicate that they are still struggling to give those 8400Nm to EK (and i hope they will)...


David
 
797charter
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:24 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 11):
I think you will find the current worry, after the 787, is the 777F, not the 747-8.

What's her problem? You'd think they'd have that one under control...

I would like now that too, - Mr. King has been very precisely in the past!


I mean, - what can go wrong with this plane, "basically" a 772LR - well yes I know that is more than a cargo door they have to install - but anyway?


Regards

Steen
Keep it clear of the propellers
 
patroni
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:51 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17):
Because cargo cares less about product rollout and being in the newest planes, and 2 years is PLENTY of time to move to plan B. No cargo carrier is going to order a new model without having a contingency plan for delays, are they?

Of course cargo carriers will have contingency plans, but I would think that pax airlines have these as well? If a serious cargo airline places an investment for a dozen or so new 747-8F, they certainly plan with the capacity. Maybe the cargo business is less "sexy" and tangible than the passenger side, but there is a market and there are actual customers whose demands have to be satisfied. Not to forget the investment in training, infrastructure etc. With a time horizon of two years I see no difference between a cargo and a pax airline.
 
nra-3b
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:08 pm

In reply to the original question-(will the 747-8(either version) schedule be affected by the 787 realignment?) That question was one of those asked by the analysts during the conference call. The answer was that the 787 re-schedule should not have any affect on other development programs, such as 747-8, 777F, etc. I think the call is archived on the Boeing website, so someone else may check on the accuracy of my recollection.

Cheers,
Bob
 
JTR
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:10 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
Boeing Boosters



Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
Airbus Aficionados



Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
Airbus Ascendant

Stitch, you might want to go into 'Alliterators' Anonymous.
 
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zeke
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:23 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):

I don't see why this would be so. The engines are not delayed, the avionics don't seem to be the bottleneck in the 787 program, so not sure why the 787 technology would be delayed.

The 748 and 787 do not share the same engine, different fan diameters, one bleed less one not, different electrics and hydraulics. The GE 747 test bed has been sitting in HKG for heavy maintenance, so little GEnx flight testing would be done at the moment.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
I would imagine the main reason for any delay is allocation of resources to other programs and lack of demand for the 748i model. I was just wondering if any insider types had heard about any delays. The 748i was already quietly pushed back by at least 1 quarter when they had no pending orders a year ago. It left more room for F deliveries, which were in demand.

I dont think that is the cause, I think it has been more to do with the time expected to redesign the wing took longer than anticipated, which has flow on effects for detail design, and hence production.

I would prefer it if the aircraft was not late, I think the sooner it flies, the more A380 sales that will go ahead. I know some airlines are still sitting on the fence waiting for Boeing to pull something out of the hat that will drastically improve the 748, but realistically, I think you can only squeeze so much from a 40 year old design.

Seems some of this redesign has failed, according to Randy Tinseth they are still looking at QC2 on arrival for LHR for the 748i (A380/787 is QC0.5, 744 is QC2).

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):

I don't recall the basis of the original rumor - was it that the 747-8 Intercontinental was to be delayed, or the entire 747-8 program (including the freighter) was to be delayed?

Whole program, this rumour originates from Boeing suppliers. Similar rumours were mentioned by John Leahy in March about the 787, he copped a lot of abuse for that from members on here from the Seattle Times article. I doubt anyone will pop their head up this time and mention it.

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 19):
As an aside, what was the planned roll-out? 7-4-8 (07-04-2008)?

In about 13 months (Nov 2008) according to Randy Tinseth. To meet that, assembly is to start in Jan 2008, and engine certification and delivery by jun/jul 2008.

This is where the suppliers have an early look at possible delays, if assembly is to start in 10-12 weeks, suppliers would need to be well advanced in their preparations to meet that, and parts would need to start to be shipped in the next 6 weeks.

Time will tell if an announcement is made by Boeing. What is noticeable is the silence from Boeing, I would have expected a press release for the first metal cut or some other significant event for the 748.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
And now Clickhappy is mumbling about the 777F being a concern at Boeing.

That does surprise me, of any program that had the lowest risk, no wing change, no engine change, minimum fuselage change.

Quoting FWI747 (Reply 20):
Quoting :
"...Boeing expects to gain between 100 nm. and 200 nm. in range from some weight reduction studies that could take range to 8,200 nm..."

How much weight do they need to save to reach this target ?
Is it possible without using large CFRP parts ?

Presentation by Randy Tinseth in HKG recently had some interesting info in it which might help connect some dots.

MTOW of the 748i/748F has dropped 10,000 lb, MLW of the 748i has dropped 23,000 lb, 7,000 lb for the 748F. MZFW for the 748i dropped 25,000 lb, and 748i 5,000 lb, i.e. all points to a reduced payload.

Randy Tinseth was not quoting 467 pax for his A380 performance comparisons, he was using 450 pax on the 748, and 555 on the A380.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:39 pm

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 7):
as a decision made by a large potential customer a while back, has made it clear no one else is going to buy that Lemon.

Yeah, its such a lemon that a lowlife 3rd rate airline called Lufthansa ordered 20 and another loser airline called Emirates is buying 10-20 of them. And oh, they have only sold like 80 or so of the frieghters.
One Nation Under God
 
jacobin777
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:53 pm

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 18):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
And now Clickhappy is mumbling about the 777F being a concern at Boeing.

Now, That would be a problem.  sad 

Unfortunately Clickhappy knows his stuff....so I'm not going to doubt him on that end.

However, at least with the -200F...

1)it has been progressing well....IIRC there was media release about it not too long ago that a good portion (20%-30% of the first plane has been built with no "hiccups")
2)comes from an existing platform-i.e -200LR/-300ER...
"Up the Irons!"
 
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Stitch
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:45 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 27):
MTOW of the 748i/748F has dropped 10,000 lb, MLW of the 748i has dropped 23,000 lb, 7,000 lb for the 748F. MZFW for the 748i dropped 25,000 lb, and 748i 5,000 lb, i.e. all points to a reduced payload.

Maybe it's just more efficient then expected.  optimist 
 
ikramerica
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:10 pm

Quoting FWI747 (Reply 22):
My point was that from september edition, the passenger version lost 2 seats.

Is that what you are on about? It could just be a typo!

Quoting Zeke (Reply 27):
The 748 and 787 do not share the same engine, different fan diameters, one bleed less one not, different electrics and hydraulics.

And yet, this doesn't change anything I've said. The engines are not delayed, nor should we have any reason to believe the flight deck is delayed. There was no delay in the 787 engine, and there is no reason to believe that GE can't get the bleed air version to market on time.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 27):
I dont think that is the cause, I think it has been more to do with the time expected to redesign the wing took longer than anticipated, which has flow on effects for detail design, and hence production.

You can think anything you want, doesn't mean it makes sense.

How does quietly pushing the 748i back 1 quarter but NOT the 748F last year have anything to do with the wing? The 748i and 748F use the same wing. If wing work was delayed, that would mean that the WHOLE program would have slipped 1 quarter already. But only the 748i slipped, and that can be attributed to a lot of things, but wing design isn't logically one of them.

Known reasons for the already established 748i 1 quarter slip (must be related to the pax version ONLY): they stretched it again; they reworked the interior again; customers demanded more range which led to lightening efforts; no orders meant no pressing schedule; there was higher demand for freighters; they needed to devote more resources to the 787.

Possible reasons for a NEW potential delay: lack of resources; lack of redesigned fasteners; other supplier issues.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 27):
Presentation by Randy Tinseth in HKG recently had some interesting info in it which might help connect some dots.

Another one of those presentations that you are privy to (and nobody else is) that details a decrease in claimed performance of a Boeing product, but never makes ANY news and can't be verified? I'd just once like to see a shred of proof about your numbers from these claimed meetings. If you can provide it, I'll eat my hat. But you never seem to back up these secret Boeing meeting claims...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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zeke
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:50 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 31):
The engines are not delayed, nor should we have any reason to believe the flight deck is delayed.

That is your opinion, it is not fact. The partial FBW for the 748 could possibly have the same problem as the 787, it is in some respects a little more difficult as it is semi hybrid control system, partially mechanical, partially FBW.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 31):
There was no delay in the 787 engine, and there is no reason to believe that GE can't get the bleed air version to market on time.

Again that is your opinion, GE did have delays with the GEnx, they just did not make it into the press.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 31):
How does quietly pushing the 748i back 1 quarter but NOT the 748F last year have anything to do with the wing? The 748i and 748F use the same wing. If wing work was delayed, that would mean that the WHOLE program would have slipped 1 quarter already. But only the 748i slipped, and that can be attributed to a lot of things, but wing design isn't logically one of them.

I think the whole program is delayed, because Boeing suppliers are not making parts they should be for the aircraft to commence assembly in Jan/2008 for it to roll out in Nov/2008. They are not making the parts as the detail design was not finished in time. The logic is simple, even you should be able to understand it.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 31):
If you can provide it, I'll eat my hat. But you never seem to back up these secret Boeing meeting claims...

Someone uploaded his presentation onto the internet. http://www.wingsasia.org/images/boeing_review_747-8.pdf see page 8 for the revised weights, page 20 for QC 2, and various pages for the reference to 450 pax. Compare that to the 748 preliminary data that is in the PDF available form their web site.

I expect a full apology, and the end of your unfounded accusations that people who work in the industry may actually be privy to industry briefings by manufacturers.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
FWI747
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:37 pm

Thank you Zeke for this link, it seems that they went back to their first proposal with a shorter fuselage (the forward plug is only 80 in long), hence the lowered MZFW, TOW and LW.
Could this be a move towards EK ?
Are those data any better than they were more than one year ago?
 
jtdieffen
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:55 pm

Quoting FWI747 (Reply 33):
Thank you Zeke for this link, it seems that they went back to their first proposal with a shorter fuselage (the forward plug is only 80 in long), hence the lowered MZFW, TOW and LW.
Could this be a move towards EK ?
Are those data any better than they were more than one year ago?

I'm confused by the link. You say this is the updated info, Zeke? Or is this the old one? The copyright says this is from 2006 and it shows the shorter fuselage. That doesn't seem to make sense if this is updated info. Or maybe I'm just confused.
Regards! JDief
 
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Stitch
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:58 pm

The 747-8 Airport Compatibility Brochure I have is from October 2006. I'll need to compare the two once the second one downloads.
 
RIX
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:20 pm

Quoting FWI747 (Reply 33):
it seems that they went back to their first proposal with a shorter fuselage

but which one ordered by LH? I don't think it doesn't matter for them whether or not they get what it was as of when they made their order.
 
FWI747
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:53 pm

BTW, I found Boeing presentation at Paris Air Show (sorry can't provide a link, it's a PDF doc) where it's stated that pax version would offer QC2 noise level on departure and QC1 on arrival, and the freighter QC2 on arrival. And in another interview from FlightInternational they seemed pretty certain that it would be achievable... so what to think?
More, this "new" presentation is featuring the Skyloft suites witch i thought Boeing dropped last year.

Quoting RIX (Reply 36):
but which one ordered by LH? I don't think it doesn't matter for them whether or not they get what it was as of when they made their order.

True.

David
 
brendows
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:54 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 32):
Someone uploaded his presentation onto the internet. http://www.wingsasia.org/images/boeing_review_747-8.pdf see page 8 for the revised weights, page 20 for QC 2, and various pages for the reference to 450 pax. Compare that to the 748 preliminary data that is in the PDF available form their web site.



Quoting Jtdieffen (Reply 34):
I'm confused by the link. You say this is the updated info, Zeke? Or is this the old one? The copyright says this is from 2006 and it shows the shorter fuselage.

Not only the copyright, if you look at the document properties, you'd notice that the document was created in May 2006.

This presentation is even older than the one Tinseth held at Farnborough last summer, in this one you can also see that it has images of the old door 2 entryway.
Nice try Zeke... Who are you trying to fool? Your credibility drops even further when you do things like that... Take a brake, you need it, again.
 
JRDC930
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:36 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 28):
and another loser airline called Emirates is buying 10-20 of them

I was under the impression nothing firm has been reached on that... i would not call 40 aircraft a huge success, and im not denying the F version is a success, only that the passenger version isnt inspiring much interest. But the point is neither of the versions will likely be delayed, because they are essentially already fully designed and developed.
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
 
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Stitch
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 39):
I was under the impression nothing firm has been reached on that...

There was some confusion as to which model Carls originally meant. It now appears that any additional 747-8s ordered by EK will also be freighters and not Intercontinentals.
 
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:22 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 11):
I think you will find the current worry, after the 787, is the 777F, not the 747-8.

What kind of worry do you mean? Sales? Technical delays?
 
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:24 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 11):
I think you will find the current worry, after the 787, is the 777F, not the 747-8.

I think the biggest worry for the 777F is the delay in 787 flight testing. Both airplanes will now be scheduled to flight test at the same time in 2008 as both are scheduled to certify and deliver in 4Q '08. It may be tough for Boeing to find enough pilots and flight test engineers to staff both programs.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
baroque
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:33 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
So, you have no information and nothing to contribute. Sure is a round about way of saying it...

BTW - it's moot, not mute.

Tricky Ikra, he probably meant moot, but between not having any information, and if he had not being able to post it, mute got pretty close to it.  Smile  Big grin

While the engines are different, I doubt if they are holding up the 748, so ?no calls of "where are the bleeding engines" as yet.
 
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:33 pm

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 7):
the plane is essentially finished, and no industry sources I've read or heard from have lead me to believe otherwise.

That is wrong. The engineering drawings are no where near being 100% released. They won't be until next year. The 748 is still in a much earlier design phase than the 787. However both programs are drawing on resources from throughout the company. Boeing has the ability to transfer engineers from established programs like the 737 and 777 to work on the new developments.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
SCAT15F
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:33 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 44):
That is wrong. The engineering drawings are no where near being 100% released. They won't be until next year.

I don't know about the drawings, but Randy Tinseth replied to my blog question a few days ago and said that firm configuration for the 748i is still on track for the end of this year.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 40):
It now appears that any additional 747-8s ordered by EK will also be freighters and not Intercontinentals.

Says who? All the most recent news on the 748 and EK has been that they are close to an order for the intercontinental, not the freighter.  Confused
 
Norcal773
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:49 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 32):
The logic is simple, even you should be able to understand it.

Ouch....
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
slz396
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:13 pm

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 46):
Ouch....

Nothing to "ouch" about really, Zeke made a very good and easy to understand point there actually:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 32):
The whole 748 program is delayed, because Boeing suppliers are not making parts they should be for the aircraft to commence assembly in Jan/2008 for it to roll out in Nov/2008.

Is anybody able to dig up a link to a site of some subcontractor for Boeing who proudly announces he has delivered the first I don't know: flap, gear assembly, cockpit window, cargo door hinge etc for the first 748?

How about the center wing box? Has it been produced yet?
As far as I know, this is about the first piece of metal for a plane to be cut, yet has it already been cut for the 748?
Haven't seen any announcement from Boeing on this mile stone....

How about the wings? Are they already in the process of being produced? Same here: absolute silence!

Seems that for a plane which is to see assembly start in 10 weeks, there aren't much parts ready to assemble indeed, other than those which are simply coming over from the 747-400, but then I suppose the 748i will be assembled and tested by Boeing with the same patented and swift method as the 787 is/was, so we don't have to worry about us identifying the bottlenecks prematurely. stirthepot 
 
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Stitch
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:14 pm

So the absence of any news is now confirmation of bad news?
 
slz396
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RE: Any News On 748 Delays From The Spies?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:39 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 48):
So the absence of any news is now confirmation of bad news?

The total and simultaneous absence of any news from so many different parties involved at leasts hints at a lack of progress...

If no parts for the 748i have been made by now, and nothing is about to be send to Seattle soon, there isn't much of assembling going to be done in a few weeks time isn't there?

Still remember how the first A380 delays were 'discovered'?
Because the convoys of parts to TLS wasn't going on as planned.
And how the 787 was reveiled as going to be delayed half a year before Boeing finally admitted it?
Because subcontractors weren't producing the parts when they were supposed to do so...
And what do we have as clear hints for the 748?
Again those same subcontractors which are not sending their pieces in on schedule for final assembly...

 scratchchin 

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