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alberchico
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Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:20 pm

The BA609 seems to be the future model for air transportation. In the future what if all jets and transports have STOL/VTOL capability and airports with long runways could be eliminated???







short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
B747forever
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:21 pm

Please dont let this be the future of commercial aviation.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
extspotter
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:23 pm

Thats fugly.

Who wants a helicopter with moveable rotors?

Not moi.
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CanadianNorth
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:26 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 1):
Please dont let this be the future of commercial aviation.



Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
STOL/VTOL capability and airports with long runways could be eliminated???

Well I can't see it happening on a large scale, atleast not for a long time. However, I can't help but think, if every airliner only needed say 1/4 of the space to take off, and some were even able to take off without runways at all, it could help a lot at major airports....
a) vertical takeoffs could mean some aircraft taking off right from the gate, eliminating the need to taxi out and wait for a runway
b) less aircraft taxiing would mean shorter line ups for the rest
c) shorter takeoff/landing rolls would mean shorter runways, which possibly could allow airports to get more runways/parking slots out of the same piece of land

Of course there would be many, many issues to work out first (ATC, proper spacing, etc)...


CanadianNorth
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itsnotfinals
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:27 pm

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 2):
Thats fugly.

Who wants a helicopter with moveable rotors?

the most advanced version of this type of aircraft is a massive failure and death trap. If the 20 billion the US Gov't put into the V-22 Oprey over the last 15 years can't fix it, I doubt this type of aircraft will be very servicable or affordable to operate.



http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1665835,00.html
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phoenixflyer
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:27 pm

I doubt it. WIth the way the Osprey has worked out I would not want to fly on it.
 
GDB
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:46 pm

Have we not been here before?
35 years ago, it was expected that we would see a proliferation of city centre airports.
Hawkers in the UK and German companies, to name two, designed airliners for VTOL, Hawkers looked at a low wing small airliner with two high bypass engines, but a bank of lift jets in huge fairings under the fuselage.

A combination of the oil crisis, noise concerns and the unpractical nature of many ideas, killed them, almost.

In Canada, the unlikely 4 turboprop Short Take Off And Landing Dash 7, then the HS, later BAe-146, another quiet 4 engine type, had these city centre airports in mind, made it to production, though AFAIK, only London City Airport, not opened until 1987, ran with the city centre idea.
And that only got built since there was so much derelict land in the old London docks, that would be massively developed into the business area it is now.

BA609 of course is more of a helicopter than an aircraft, but city centre heliports, for scheduled pax operation, have not seen growth or really sustained operations.
I took an old S-58T chopper, of New York Helicopter, from JFK to downtown in early 1993, they are not around now and that service replaced others with WG-30's and S-61's.
 
SANChaser
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:34 pm

I believe we'll see the VLJ market develop faster than S/VTOL aircraft. Isn't the fuel consumption of the Eclipse 500 much better over the distance/speed factor of a BA/Augusta 609?

Eclipse:
Empty weight: 3,550 lb (1,610 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 5,950 lb (2,699 kg)
Cruise speed: 370 knots (425 mph, 685 km/h)
Range: 1,125 nm (1,295 mi, 2,084 km)
Capacity: 4 to 5 passengers

BA609:
Empty weight: 10,483 lb (4,765 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 16,800 lb (7,258 kg)
Cruise speed: 260 knots (299 mph, 465 km/h)
Range: 750 nm (852 mi, 1390 km)
Capacity: 6 to 9 passengers/5,500 lb (2,500 kg) payload

Its an interesting development however for commercial aviation.  Smile
 
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alberchico
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:03 pm

does anybody know if the V-22 has experienced any operational problems in terms of airspace, atc communications or airport layouts ???
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:09 am

it's a military aircraft, so no





It wouldn't have any of those problems, the main issue is that it crashes all the time.
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bond007
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 8):
does anybody know if the V-22 has experienced any operational problems in terms of airspace, atc communications or airport layouts ???

It will, due to the lack of low-level IFR routes.

The only viable commercial use IMO is for corporate ... and that's pushing it. It has very few advantages over a helicopter of comparabe size, and many disadvantages. 6 pax would be the max for corporate. There are plenty of bizjet capable airports, and most have no problems with delays (TEB probably the one exception).

It's range is poor, so would not replace a fixed-wing corporate aircraft for most missions. We'll be seeing King Airs for many years to come ... and the odd S76 when required.

IMO it's trying to combine 2 missions into one aircraft ... not achieving either one of them 100% ... but with the disadvantages of both!


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 10):
It will, due to the lack of low-level IFR routes.

what do you mean? there are thousands of V routes low level (below FLs) IFR, this would have no impact, not sure what you are tring to say here.
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
bond007
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:12 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 11):
what do you mean? there are thousands of V routes low level (below FLs) IFR, this would have no impact,

It would if you are flying off airport ... one of the whole reasons for operating a BA609. The whole topic of IFR approaches and IFR separation for helicopters is a topic all on it's own. Agreed, with the advent of GPS, much more is possible, but flying commercial becomes somewhat more complicated when flying from building A to Heliport B in minimal weather conditions.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
dl767captain
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:37 am

ya but think how much power or huge blades you would need to take a fully loaded 757 off the ground, the terminal might blow away
 
Mike89406
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:45 am

My understanding is that commercial developers want to use the tilt-rotor aircraft for regional flights in the future and thats probably the extent of that idea. I ran across a good arttcile about the commercial testing over a year ago but cannot seem to find it.



The V-22 got a real bad rap from the get-go falsification of maintenance records, and some really shady maintenance practices. I know that the plan was under a microscope since that, However I don't know enough facts personally to say whether it is worth it however here is some info on the aircraft.

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/v-22%20osprey.htm
 
Boeingluvr
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:48 am

Oh yea, I bet we all would love to be on one of those during and engine failure.
 
hloutweg
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:53 pm

The BA609 could be the future of commercial aviation. But the X-Hawk is the future of civil aviation.





Such aircraft is being built and tested successfully by Urban Aeronautics. I doesn't look pretty either though.
In Varietate Concordia
 
bond007
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:58 pm

Quoting Hloutweg (Reply 16):
and tested successfully

It doesn't look like a prototype has been completed, let alone flown ... so I'm not sure what 'tested successfully' means ??

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:01 pm

A large airliner would need rotors the size of a stadium to lift off . There goes the space saving idea.  Silly
 
FlySSC
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:29 pm

Has everybody altready forgot the mighty FAIREY ROTODYNE ?

Just 50 years ago it was laready considered as the "future of commercial Aviation" !!!

Take a look at this :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9633v6U0wo
 
hloutweg
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:40 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 17):
It doesn't look like a prototype has been completed, let alone flown ... so I'm not sure what 'tested successfully' means ??

Sorry. I forgot to mention that the 'successful testing' statement came from Time magazine in an article that addresses several high technological developments from private companies. It was featured in a magazine released around a month ago. However, i haven't seen any real one flying only muck-up/prototype videos that you can find on youtube.
In Varietate Concordia
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:47 pm

The V-22 Osprey has given birth??  Wow!
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foxxray
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:13 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 17):
It doesn't look like a prototype has been completed, let alone flown ... so I'm not sure what 'tested successfully' means ??

Jimbo

I think you have your answer... 3 prototypes are flying and the first one fly since 2003 !


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There is more than 100 BA609 on order, mostly for VIP purpose but for EMS/Rescue missions too.
Actually the problem is that there is no feedback with tilt rotor, many costumers are waiting to order until the first "helicopters" are fully operative into their specifics missions... lots of people are looking at it in USA but in Paris and London too !

I think it will be a very interesting machine because of its helicopters capabilities with Beech King Air cruising performance (but for the price of a BA609 you can get 4 Beech 200 Big grin ), but the present and future types from Eurocopter, Agusta, Bell and Sikorsky are becoming more and more performant so the future will tell us if it is a success.

Also presently i don't see any Tilt Rotors flying on regular commercial flights, it's too expensive, a 30 or 50 seats Tilt Rotor should be very very big, if they want to be more interesting than airliner they must take off from heliport situated in city center, so in Europe except Paris, London and Monaco, there is no "true" heliport !

But who knows, future will tell us...  Wink
 
bond007
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:20 pm

Quoting FoxXray (Reply 22):
I think you have your answer... 3 prototypes are flying and the first one fly since 2003 !

I was referring to the X-Hawk.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
foxxray
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:23 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 23):
I was referring to the X-Hawk.


Jimbo

Ok, sorry  Wink
 
Falcon84
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:34 pm

Quoting Phoenixflyer (Reply 5):
I doubt it. WIth the way the Osprey has worked out I would not want to fly on it.

I was thinking the same thing. I don't think it'll be commercial aviation, but more on the private sector, for businessmen and women who need to get in/out of places quickly. I can see them using something like this.

Quoting Hloutweg (Reply 16):
Such aircraft is being built and tested successfully by Urban Aeronautics. I doesn't look pretty either though.

I'd love to get one! Make it easy for almost anyone to use, and I'll be there.  Smile
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
gatechae
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:51 pm

A lot of the V-22 Osprey's problems had to do with the nature of the design for the aircraft. It was developed under a military contract so Bell/Boeing had to cut corners to put forth an operational aircraft within a certain time period. Although a commercial version would have time constraints, they wouldn't be nearly as strict, and with enough R&D I think the Tilt Rotor concept can become practical and safe.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting Gatechae (Reply 26):
A lot of the V-22 Osprey's problems had to do with the nature of the design for the aircraft. It was developed under a military contract so Bell/Boeing had to cut corners to put forth an operational aircraft within a certain time period.

According to last week's Aviation Week & Space Technology, the first V-22s are enroute to Iraq (by sea), their first foreign deployment, almost 18 years since the V-22 prototype made its first test flight.
 
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alberchico
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:48 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 10):
The only viable commercial use IMO is for corporate ... and that's pushing it. It has very few advantages over a helicopter of comparabe size, and many disadvantages. 6 pax would be the max for corporate. There are plenty of bizjet capable airports, and most have no problems with delays (TEB probably the one exception).

It's range is poor, so would not replace a fixed-wing corporate aircraft for most missions. We'll be seeing King Airs for many years to come ... and the odd S76 when required.

So this civil BA609 , exactly what is the market for this airplane if corporate operators decide not to buy it ???
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:59 am

I think the BA609 will be more successful than people think, for one reason: its cruising speed is way higher than any conventional helicopter, and it can land and takeoff in more or less the same space as conventional helicopters.

The technology is very unusual, so that's why Bell-Augusta is taking their time to test and perfect the BA609 for civilian use.
 
bond007
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RE: Is This The Future Of Commercial Aviation?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:54 pm

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 28):
So this civil BA609 , exactly what is the market for this airplane if corporate operators decide not to buy it ???

When I said 'viable option' it was all relative  Wink

It's only advantage over a helicopter seems to be speed ... much else is a disadvantage. I guess it's market is probably to combine those that need a King Air and an S76 ... but it's range doesn't match a King Air, and it's price will probably be higher than both ... maintenance costs for sure.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!

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