TWA902fly
Topic Author
Posts: 2869
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:47 am

NW CR9 Problems?

Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:56 pm

Just random observations, NW's late night MSP-FAR has been a Saab 340 2 of the past 3 nights and will be a Saab 340 again tomorrow night, a flight that is regularly scheduled to be a CR9. Anyone know whats going on?

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3381
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: NW CR9 Problems?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:23 am

There have been some teething pains with brining the airplane online. There have been reocurring mx issues which required 3 to be sent back to the factory for some retooling. They're back in service and 8 are in operation as of today. Another problem is a pilot training backlog. There are a lot of pilots waiting to complete training, but a long line for the checking events is forming. They're trying their best to get caught up, but it isn't easy with only so much sim time available.


Ahh... the joys of bringing a new fleet into service.


AZJ
 
NWAESC
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

RE: NW CR9 Problems?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 1):
There have been some teething pains with brining the airplane online.

This has got to be the understatement of the year!

The first six weeks we had one in my city, I worked it...twice. it was either cancelled or very late the rest of the time.

The other problem is a lot of the maintenance procedures are "new" as well. For example, writing up a failed APU took over 3 hours the other day, because no one at XJ knew how to properly MEL it on the -900.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
azjubilee
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Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: NW CR9 Problems?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:59 am

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say "no one at XJ knew how to properly MEL it on the -900." The MEL works exactly the same way on the -900 as it does on the -200 and saab. THe procedures for writing things up are also the same across the entire fleet. The captains on the -900 are the most senior at the company, so I'm pretty sure they know how to handle a write up. I would be willing to bet the issue the flight at your station was dealing with was a bit more complicated than you realize. What station are you at? Must be DFW,MDW, or FAR since those were the first cities.


AZJ
 
KL642
Posts: 250
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 5:07 am

RE: NW CR9 Problems?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:05 am

I am scheduled to fly on one of these on the 15th & 19th MSP-YUL-MSP. Hopefully all will go according to schedule.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5157
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: NW CR9 Problems?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 2):
For example, writing up a failed APU took over 3 hours the other day, because no one at XJ knew how to properly MEL it on the -900.

Personally, I was hoping that, following the Pinnacle accident with the -200, the FAA would prohibit MEL-ing the APU. I believe that there were serious questions raised about whether the ship had been properly certified without a waiver, because it was discovered in the Pinnacle hearings that if you don't have an APU available below a very significant altitude, like 5000 feet, I believe, you can't relight the engines after a dual-engine failure. I guess it's going to take a fatal accident in which actual paying passengers, rather than just the flight crew, are killed before anyone takes seriously the FAR 25.903(e) requirement that the thing not be suitable "for glider use only" below a certain altitude following a dual failure. In a May 2000 position paper, which documents that "common cause" dual-engine flameouts at relatively-low altitudes occur with a not-insignificant frequency, the FAA stated that the APU installation should be certified as "essential", http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinnacle/exhibits/324181.pdf Nevertheless, it appears that, still today, the thing can be deferred. What a shame.

[Edited 2007-10-10 22:07:07]
 
NWAESC
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Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

RE: NW CR9 Problems?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:25 pm

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 3):
I don't know if I'd go so far as to say "no one at XJ knew how to properly MEL it on the -900." The MEL works exactly the same way on the -900 as it does on the -200 and saab.

That's what I thought as well....If that's the case, then why the 3 hour ordeal to MEL it?

Quote:
THe procedures for writing things up are also the same across the entire fleet.

See my above response....Supposedly, the reason cited was that "it had never been done before on a -900," and that's what took so long.

Quote:
The captains on the -900 are the most senior at the company, so I'm pretty sure they know how to handle a write up.

No doubt; and yet, here we are....




Quote:
I would be willing to bet the issue the flight at your station was dealing with was a bit more complicated than you realize.

Nope. APU failed at departure time. End of story. Thanks for the condescending attitude, though.

Quote:
What station are you at? Must be DFW,MDW, or FAR since those were the first cities.

None of the above.


Still waiting for a good answer as to why these A/C have such poor reliability overall.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: NW CR9 Problems?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:32 pm

Par for the course. DL has had nothing but problems with the 700's they run out of CVG. Lots of mx problems.
One Nation Under God
 
tinpusher007
Posts: 889
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:03 am

RE: NW CR9 Problems?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:52 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 7):
Par for the course. DL has had nothing but problems with the 700's they run out of CVG. Lots of mx problems

Why now? DL has had CR7's for years.

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 1):
Another problem is a pilot training backlog. There are a lot of pilots waiting to complete training, but a long line for the checking events is forming. They're trying their best to get caught up, but it isn't easy with only so much sim time available.

I'll say! I was in DEN for 3 weeks and got to the oral but was sent home after because no APD's were available to do our PC's. I was then contacted a week later to return but that trip was cancelled. This was all about a month ago now.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: NW CR9 Problems?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:10 pm

I hd never noticed any issues with SkyWest's 900's (worked them in ATL). Any issues on their side?
What gets measured gets done.
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3381
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: NW CR9 Problems?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:35 pm

NWAESC - jeez, I had no intention of condesending attitude. My point is that there is a lot of protocol, procedure and discussion that goes on in the cockpit, over the radio and on the phone that you may not have been apart of. As a result, you may not have had the big picture. Therefore, your assumption the pilots didn't know what was going on is a bit broad.


AZJ
 
NWAESC
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

RE: NW CR9 Problems?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:59 pm

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 10):
NWAESC - jeez, I had no intention of condesending attitude. My point is that there is a lot of protocol, procedure and discussion that goes on in the cockpit, over the radio and on the phone that you may not have been apart of. As a result, you may not have had the big picture. Therefore, your assumption the pilots didn't know what was going on is a bit broad.


AZJ

That's just it; *everyone* from the Pilots to the on call maintenance provider here to us on the ramp knew what was going on.

Moreover, all of us thought we knew what the "usual" fix to a relatively easy problem was (MEL the APU, do an airstart, hit the road). Obviously, that wasn't the case.

That's what's so frustrating. All of the protocol, procedure and discussions should have been ironed out and in place before this plane ever entered service-especially for something this common.

I understand new A/C have "teething" problems. But to have them be so widespread, and coupled with "administrative" ones (for lack of a better term) is unacceptable.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3381
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: NW CR9 Problems?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:09 pm

OK - I wasn't there I was just trying to shed some light on what might have transpired. I still find it hard to believe that you knew what was in the conversation between the captain and the company. Just like we as pilots don't always have the big picture of what goes on behind the scenes in doing your job, the ground staff doesn't realize half the stuff we're doing to help get the flight out. Perhaps that's a problem with the way we do business in our industry.


AZJ
 
CWAFlyer
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:33 am

RE: NW CR9 Problems?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:00 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 5):
Personally, I was hoping that, following the Pinnacle accident with the -200, the FAA would prohibit MEL-ing the APU.

Why? The APU working or not had nothing to do with the Pinnacle accident. The engines on the Pinnacle airplane core locked. They had no chance to get them restarted.
 
CWAFlyer
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:33 am

RE: NW CR9 Problems?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 9):
I hd never noticed any issues with SkyWest's 900's (worked them in ATL). Any issues on their side

Other than DL ramp in ATl running ground equipment into them, they've been pretty reliable.
 
CWAFlyer
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:33 am

RE: NW CR9 Problems?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:07 am

Quoting Nwaesc (Reply 11):
Moreover, all of us thought we knew what the "usual" fix to a relatively easy problem was (MEL the APU, do an airstart, hit the road). Obviously, that wasn't the case.

What was wrong with the APU that caused it to be deferred?
 
NWAESC
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

RE: NW CR9 Problems?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:06 am

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 12):
OK - I wasn't there I was just trying to shed some light on what might have transpired. I still find it hard to believe that you knew what was in the conversation between the captain and the company.

Only what I heard the pilot say to maintenance control on the phone, and what he relayed to us....

Quote:
Just like we as pilots don't always have the big picture of what goes on behind the scenes in doing your job, the ground staff doesn't realize half the stuff we're doing to help get the flight out. Perhaps that's a problem with the way we do business in our industry.


AZJ

To his credit, the pilot wanted to go just as badly as we wanted him to, as was working hard to do so. Maybe I haven't been clear enough, but my disappointment is with the fact that no one on the other end knew how to MEL a -900 APU properly. Not pilot incompetence. As for the rest of your post...Agreed!
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
NWAESC
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

RE: NW CR9 Problems?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:09 am

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 12):
OK - I wasn't there I was just trying to shed some light on what might have transpired. I still find it hard to believe that you knew what was in the conversation between the captain and the company.

I only "know" what I overheard between the pilot and maintenance control, and what he relayed to us. Maybe I haven't been clear enough; my problem wasn't with the pilots, but with the fact that no one at XJ knew how to properly MEL a -900 APU.

Quote:
Just like we as pilots don't always have the big picture of what goes on behind the scenes in doing your job, the ground staff doesn't realize half the stuff we're doing to help get the flight out. Perhaps that's a problem with the way we do business in our industry.
AZJ

Agreed!
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."

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