Clipper136
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US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:24 am

Interesting information contained in the US Airways 9OCT07 SEC Form 8-K filing.

US has NOT cancelled the 15 A318 previously ordered by AW, but has "rescheduled delivery".
US wants 5 additional A332, pending Board Approval ( from the original A332 order from 1998).
A350 XWB order brakes down to 18 - 800s and 4 - 900s, plus options, that are not specified.
US also holds additional options for the A330/A340 that are not specified.

US Airways SEC 8-K filing
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delawareusa
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:32 am

Why A318 when the Emb 175 and 195 has simular performance?
 
gigneil
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:38 am

Quoting DelawareUSA (Reply 1):
Why A318 when the Emb 175 and 195 has simular performance?

Neither do. They may have a similar capacity but not the same payload or range.

Out of hot and high Vegas and Phoenix, the A318 could easily service secondary markets to the East that an Embraer couldn't.

And before the refrain that the A318 and A319 are the same, that's crap. F9 loves theirs.

NS
 
HPAEAA
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting Clipper136 (Thread starter):
US has NOT cancelled the 15 A318 previously ordered by AW, but has "rescheduled delivery".

HP converted their orders to A319s and a320s... if US indeed orders a318s, then they are new orders since the HP days..
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gigneil
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:06 am

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 3):
HP converted their orders to A319s and a320s... if US indeed orders a318s, then they are new orders since the HP days..

The SEC filing differs, and I tend to believe official federal documents.

NS
 
n710ps
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:07 am

318's are not on the books. Nor is it wanted. Too heavy and makes no sense for them considering the fact that the 190's are coming now. Most of the flights it would be used on are covered by Embraer birds or the CR9 and will remain so untill Mesa goes away.
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MaverickM11
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:13 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2):
F9 loves theirs.

Nah ah.

Quoting Clipper136 (Thread starter):
US has NOT cancelled the 15 A318 previously ordered by AW, but has "rescheduled delivery".

If those things see the light of day in US colors, I will never say another thing on this site about the A318 again Smile
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gigneil
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
Nah ah.

Well they did participate in a huge Airways article about how they did...

NS
 
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 4):
The SEC filing differs, and I tend to believe official federal documents.

NS

no offence, but link??
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MaverickM11
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 7):
Well they did participate in a huge Airways article about how they did...

It flies real nice, and it's a solid plane just like the 319, but it has high unit costs as everyone has mentioned before. The trip costs are obviously lower than the 319 but not enough to offset the lost 14+/- seats, which will become increasingly apparent as F9's LF hits new record levels. But that's the operating side of the equation...if you can get the planes cheap enough *cough cough*, you can offset the operating costs to a point where it may look ok.
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:40 am

 
overcast
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:33 am

Try :
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da...00117902207000124/form8k100207.htm

Also states that there are 10 A330 that were previously ordered have been resheduled to 2014 through 2015. It also states that they are cancellable, so still unlikely to get them delivered.
 
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yyz717
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:49 am

It's hard to see the business need for the 318 at US. Whatever US markets the 318 could best handle, they could also be handled just fine by a mix of the existing US/USEx CR9, E170/E190 and 319/733 aircraft.

The last thing US needs now is yet another sub-type. They need to rationalize their fleet, not further complicate it.
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gigneil
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:57 am

Adding CFM powered A318s would add no complication... come on, other Neil, you know that.  Smile The whole point of the Airbus family concept is that they're the same plane.

I agree there may not be a ton of markets for them, although I could see PHX-Caribbean being a pretty handy route for them.

NS
 
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mariner
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:03 am

Here's a condensed version of it:

http://biz.yahoo.com/e/071009/7145608-k.html

With this quote:

"In addition, the Amended and Restated Airbus A320 Family Aircraft Purchase Agreement revises the delivery schedule for 15 A318 aircraft and provides US Airways with certain other rights with respect thereto."

I thought that America West had changed them to A319, but it seems they are still on the books.

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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):
.if you can get the planes cheap enough *cough cough*, you can offset the operating costs to a point where it may look ok.

If you have some facts about that, I think you should post them, rather than just making innuendo.

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yyz717
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:29 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 14):
Adding CFM powered A318s would add no complication... come on, other Neil, you know that.

Sure, it would. Adding 318's (instead of 15 319's, for instance) will add another unnecessary complexity to route/capacity planning in an already overly diverse fleet. Better to rationalize the fleet with fewer subtypes.

I agree that adding the 318 to a fleet of JUST the 319-321 could benefit route planning and efficiency, but when that fleet already includes the CR9, E170/E175/E190, and 733, the 318 "destined" routes are already well covered, and the 318 would represent another unneeded sub-type without a dedicated mission. (Fleet) simplicity is best. IMO. So says THIS Neil.  Smile
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Asiaflyer
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting Overcast (Reply 12):
Try :
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da...00117902207000124/form8k100207.htm

Also states that there are 10 A330 that were previously ordered have been resheduled to 2014 through 2015. It also states that they are cancellable, so still unlikely to get them delivered.

This is a great source.
Should be reflected in Airbus ordersheet, that is to get updated any day.
Looks like US Airways has prepared themself well for the future.
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 3):
HP converted their orders to A319s and a320s... if US indeed orders a318s, then they are new orders since the HP days..



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 4):
The SEC filing differs, and I tend to believe official federal documents.



Quoting N710PS (Reply 5):
318's are not on the books. Nor is it wanted.

Airbus's O&D spreadsheet for September now shows a single listing for US Airways (rather than the US East & US West used previously). The spreadsheet clearly shows US Airways with 15 x A318 on order.
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Asiaflyer
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:44 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 19):
Airbus's O&D spreadsheet for September now shows a single listing for US Airways (rather than the US East & US West used previously). The spreadsheet clearly shows US Airways with 15 x A318 on order.

Aa far as I can see, the ordersheet is not updated for latest order yet, as it only shows 20 A350 and too few A320s on order.
The SEC filing though is supposed to be correct and if they post the A318 order there, as well as the initial A330s,
the same should show up in Airbus O&D sheet after the next update.

What I'm wondering is why they took up the new A330 order and postponed the old one to 2014-2015??
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:49 am

Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 20):
Aa far as I can see, the ordersheet is not updated for latest order yet, as it only shows 20 A350 and too few A320s on order.

It doesn't since it only goes to Sep 30th. However, the claims were that HP had cancelled the A318 order, when they clearly hadn't.
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Clipper136
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:39 am

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 3):
HP converted their orders to A319s and a320s... if US indeed orders a318s, then they are new orders since the HP days..



Quoting N710PS (Reply 5):
318's are not on the books



Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 8):
no offence, but link??

No wonder there are so many needless pandering discusions here on A.net.

The very first post provided an offical link to back statements and still.............


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it is better to let the world THINK you are a fool, than to open your mouth and confirm it...... Big grin

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columba
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Book

Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:18 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 12):
The last thing US needs now is yet another sub-type. They need to rationalize their fleet, not further complicate it.

With the 737 and 767 leaving the fleet US will have a fleet consisting of E-Jets, A318-A321,757,A330 and A350 looks like a very rationalized fleet for me. Also I rememember to have read that US asked Airbus for an improved A321 to replace the 757.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 16):
I agree that adding the 318 to a fleet of JUST the 319-321 could benefit route planning and efficiency, but when that fleet already includes the CR9, E170/E175/E190, and 733, the 318 "destined" routes are already well covered, and the 318 would represent another unneeded sub-type without a dedicated mission. (Fleet) simplicity is best. IMO. So says THIS Neil.

As I said above 737 classics will be replaced with A32x so it is really not that complicated AF e.g. has a similar narrowbody fleet.
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mah584jr
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:26 pm

So much has been made of US Airways fleet in recent times. I'll believe them when I see the planes in person at this point. Filings and documents mean little to me when it comes to US.
 
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:34 pm

Quoting Clipper136 (Thread starter):
US has NOT cancelled the 15 A318 previously ordered by AW, but has "rescheduled delivery".

From what I can tell, that is Airbus jargon for "cancelled".  Smile

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 7):
Well they did participate in a huge Airways article about how they did...

Well, one would not expect them to say they suck, would one? All that would do is hurt any resale value.
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MaverickM11
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:03 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 15):
If you have some facts about that, I think you should post them, rather than just making innuendo.

I haven't worked for them in years but I could try asking for actual documents. Silly
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n710ps
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:29 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 18):
Airbus's O&D spreadsheet for September now shows a single listing for US Airways (rather than the US East & US West used previously). The spreadsheet clearly shows US Airways with 15 x A318 on order.

Considering I work for a wholly owned subsidiary and do have hub access to the latest information before the boy wonders that spread it on this site I am pretty sure I can tell you with confidence that you will NEVER see an A-318 in USAirways colors. The smallest airbus you will see in their colors will be the 319. Just like you will never see a 900 in US colors operated by us. I have been to several town hall meetings for mainline and NEVER has Doug talked about 318's at all but strictly the 319, 320, and 321 fleet as far as narrow body mainline airbus is concerned. You may see it on the Airbus site but coming from someone on the inside there will be no 318. I will go as far as to call OCC in PIT for US mainline to confirm this as they would have advanced knowladge if anyone.


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avek00
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:36 pm

On the books and "on the property" will always mean two very different things -- I fully expect US to either sublease the A318s to someone else or otherwise broker a deal to roll the A318 deposits to other a/c types.
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Flighty
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:00 pm

Add me to the "no A318" list. The A319 can do absolutely anything US would need performance-wise. To me, the story ends there. Regardless of documents...

However, I have been thinking US really needs ~15 A332s. Think about it, they want to replace 10 762s PLUS add PHX-FRA, maybe PHL-TLV and something else. They need more than 10.

If they want to retire the 762 before 2015, A350 time, then they will need 15 A332, not 10.
 
columba
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Book

Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:05 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 28):
However, I have been thinking US really needs ~15 A332s. Think about it, they want to replace 10 762s PLUS add PHX-FRA, maybe PHL-TLV and something else. They need more than 10.

If they want to retire the 762 before 2015, A350 time, then they will need 15 A332, not 10.

That is why I was thinking they ordered ten additional ones. Since they want to replace the 762 and need more longhaul aircraft for growth ten are not enough for them. Maybe it is ten +2-3 used A343s then it would be okay.

[Edited 2007-10-11 09:06:35]
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Book

Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:06 pm

I think it is safe to assume that this phrase "and provides US Airways with certain other rights with respect thereto" likely allows US to convert the order to A319s with some adjustments, if they want.
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mariner
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:28 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 25):
I haven't worked for them in years but I could try asking for actual documents. 

If you haven't worked there "for years" then I presume you mean the first batch, for which they received a standard launch customer discount - they became the launch customer by default.

But I seem to remember you asking me - here - how much they paid for the second batch, in a thread dated just before the A320 order, which was announced during the course of the thread.

And at least acording to Mr. Potter about three months ago, the negotiated option prices are not "compelling".

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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:52 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 31):
If you haven't worked there "for years"

As in two Smile
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:02 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 32):
As in two

I'm not sure how that changes anything.

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bkircher
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:23 pm

Quoting N710PS (Reply 5):
318's are not on the books. Nor is it wanted. Too heavy and makes no sense for them considering the fact that the 190's are coming now. Most of the flights it would be used on are covered by Embraer birds or the CR9 and will remain so untill Mesa goes away.

What is to replace the 900s then, they have over 30 of them? Honestly I don't see Mesa leaving anytime soon, even with all of their problems. There is no equal support airline currently out there with the number of aircraft that Mesa has. SkyWest is ok, Air Wisconsin is nothing bigger than CR2's, PSA and Air Wisky are only on the East cost. Then were do you come up with the amount of aircraft that is needed to replace what Mesa has. If US were to get rid of Mesa here soon, their regional market would be near to nothing for along time. Not to mention, that is almost a majority of thier route lists and what makes up their schedule.

If they were to just use the E-190s, they would have to speed up the delivery schedule, currently its like 1 a month.
 
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:41 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 33):
I'm not sure how that changes anything.

I was definitely there, but my being there or not doesn't change the economics of an aircraft, although I wish it did  Silly
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:54 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
I was definitely there

I don't dispute that. I have no idea where you work/have worked, and I have no reason to dispute your employment anywhere.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
but my being there or not doesn't change the economics of an aircraft, although I wish it did  

Nor does anything change the fact that Frontier ordered more.

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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:03 pm

i just got confirmation from scott kirby our president via e-mail that "there are no A318's on order and NO plans to ever order them. "
 
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:09 pm

technically they are on the books but the company has no obligation to take them and they never will.
 
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:20 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 36):
Nor does anything change the fact that Frontier ordered more.

Of course not--all I'm saying is that if the ownership costs are low enough, they make up for the operating costs.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 31):
But I seem to remember you asking me - here - how much they paid for the second batch

I doubt I asked if I already knew.
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:23 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 39):
I doubt I asked if I already knew.

The post is in the archives - reply #83:

http://dm.airliners.net/discussions/...42&s=Frontier+A320+order#ID2618242

"MaverickM11: Do you know the price they paid?"

mariner

[Edited 2007-10-11 18:24:30]
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:02 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 40):
"MaverickM11: Do you know the price they paid?"

That was a rhetorical question.
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:42 am

What is the extra cost of operating a A319 compared to a A318, given same discounts in price and route supporting 100 pax. I.e. A318 working near capacity, but not the A319.
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:11 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 30):
I think it is safe to assume that this phrase "and provides US Airways with certain other rights with respect thereto" likely allows US to convert the order to A319s with some adjustments, if they want.

So why don't they do the conversion already? Are they trying to figure out how many Gallic cheeks they need to kiss to get it done?  Smile

Quoting Etops1 (Reply 38):
technically they are on the books but the company has no obligation to take them and they never will.

So there are no deposits involved and no need to convert the order to some other Airbus product?
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:58 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 41):
That was a rhetorical question.

Funny. That's funny.  Smile

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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:38 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 43):
Funny. That's funny.

Quoting the last time I proved you wrong is funny interesting or funny ha-ha?
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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:42 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 44):
Quoting the last time I proved you wrong is funny interesting or funny ha-ha?

I don;t see that you've proved anything. I made no claim as to what Frontier was paying for the aircraft, and since it was an order for more, I'm not sure how I was the one who was wrong.

As to funny interesting or funny ha-ha, you're a smart guy, you work it out.  Smile

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RE: US Wants 5 Additional A332, A318 Still On Books

Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:22 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
If those things see the light of day in US colors, I will never say another thing on this site about the A318 again

LOL, and which site WILL you post such said things on?

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 13):
I agree there may not be a ton of markets for them, although I could see PHX-Caribbean being a pretty handy route for them.

Or a nice handful of new red-eyes from LAS, or even existing ones (LAS-SLC being one, instead of that damned CR2!!)
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