ARGinLON
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Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:23 pm

Has any of these airlines (DL, CO, US, NW) made any official announcements about LHR operations for 2008? If am not wrong, the IATA Summer flight schedule is due pretty soon.
Surely negotiations must be tough and long but I would have expected them to have something done by now.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:46 pm

Quoting ARGinLON (Thread starter):
Has any of these airlines (DL, CO, US, NW) made any official announcements about LHR operations for 2008?

No idea about CO or NW, but Delta and Air France will hold a press conference come October 17th regarding the start of their Joint Venture, and it is expected that that conference will also be used to announce details of their cooperation from LHR, how many slots AF has given to DL, AF codesharing on DL's LHR flights, and other details.
 
ANother
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:58 pm

The IATA Schedules meeting is the first week in November. Unlikely that we will hear any firm plans before then.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 1):
how many slots AF has given to DL, AF codesharing on DL's LHR flights, and other details.

Sorry to be pedantic, but slots cannot 'be given' they can only be 'traded' in accordance with EU regulations and IATA's World Scheduling Guidelines.
 
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PW100
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:03 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 2):
Sorry to be pedantic, but slots cannot 'be given' they can only be 'traded' in accordance with EU regulations and IATA's World Scheduling Guidelines.

True. However if an AF/DL and/or a KL/NW joint venture is approved by the authorities than they will probably have the option to use any slot for any flight.

KLM is stopping with their LHR-RTM and LHR-EIN operation and it is widely believed that these 7 daily LHR slots will be utilized for transatlantic operations. All KLM transatlantic ops are joint ventured with NW, so I would expect that NW and/or KLM would be able to use these 7 daily slots for their upcoming LHR-transatlantic operation.
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kaitak
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:44 pm

Aer Lingus has leased at least one pair of slots to Continental, presumably for LHR-IAH.

There was actually a rumour earlier today that AF - ITSELF - was going to fly LHR-LAX!
 
ANother
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:53 pm

Quoting PW100 (Reply 3):
KLM is stopping with their LHR-RTM and LHR-EIN operation and it is widely believed that these 7 daily LHR slots will be utilized for transatlantic operations.

KL may be ceasing their LHR-RTM/EIN services but they don't have 7 slot pairs. EIN is currently 2 x daily (Mo-Fri) and RTM is 3 x daily (but not all Sa/Su).

EIN slot pairs are arr/dep 0705 0815 and 1725 1830
RTM slot pairs are arr/dep 0715 0750, 1615 1705, 2015 2100

Good luck to anybody with a wide body, or even B757 wanting to use any of these pairs. At best they would have a late afternoon 65 minute turn. At worst an early morning 40 minute turn.
 
jcavinato
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:53 pm

A question I have about slots: Is it technically a permission to land/take off, is it a gate access, or is it a general permission to serve the airport? How is a slot technically defined?

I'd appreciate any light on this.
 
kl591
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:53 pm

Quoting PW100 (Reply 3):
KLM is stopping with their LHR-RTM and LHR-EIN operation and it is widely believed that these 7 daily LHR slots will be utilized for transatlantic operations. All KLM transatlantic ops are joint ventured with NW, so I would expect that NW and/or KLM would be able to use these 7 daily slots for their upcoming LHR-transatlantic operation.

Where do you get your info from PW100? It is also only 5 daily slots KL1332, KL1338, KL1340 for LHR-RTM and KL992, KL996 for LHR-EIN.

KL591
 
Aisak
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:26 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 7):
EIN slot pairs are arr/dep 0705 0815 and 1725 1830
RTM slot pairs are arr/dep 0715 0750, 1615 1705, 2015 2100

Good luck to anybody with a wide body, or even B757 wanting to use any of these pairs. At best they would have a late afternoon 65 minute turn. At worst an early morning 40 minute turn.

Does NW have to use exclusively these slots? Can't they simply use the 0715 arrival (RTM) and one 1000 departure (AMS) instead? Of course that would need to adjust some AMS flights, and even CDG now AF-KLM are a whole.
The other option is to get the whole RTM pair of slots 0715-0750 and try to trade the latter with any other airline.

Anyway. Does anybody have the schedule of terminal changes at LHR when T5 opens? If I'm not mistaken, only BA has published the 4 stages to move onto T5 and T3. Given flights for March onwards are now bookable, it would be interesting to know as transfer times can change if airlines swap terminals.

Edit: spelling

[Edited 2007-10-11 14:32:21]
 
Rivet42
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:08 pm

Quoting Jcavinato (Reply 8):
A question I have about slots: Is it technically a permission to land/take off, is it a gate access, or is it a general permission to serve the airport? How is a slot technically defined?

It can be quite complicated, as each terminal has a capacity limit both in gate use and passenger numbers, so for example, if T3 is already at or above those limits for a particular time of day, it's very unlikely that anyone would be able to 'acquire' by whatever means available a large aircaft slot for that time. This means that in practice, it's not simply a case of AF/DL moving let's say a 10am A.320 slot from T2 to a 10am B.777 slot at T3... It will really depend on all those variables.

Whilst it may be possible to mix slots from different slot pairs, remember too that if the aircraft has to be moved off the gate whilst not in use, there will have to be somewhere to park it, so again it's not as simple as it sounds! I don't envy the slot planners...!  crazy 

Permission to serve UK/London/Heathrow is as far as I know something different, granted at the goverment level (at least prior to the new Open Skies deal).

Riv'
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jcavinato
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:47 am

Rivet, Thanks. So, in this case it might be both BAA with regards to utilization of, say, T3 as well as the UK government transport authorities with landing permissions at LHR.

I recall a few years ago the American FAA doling out slots at LGA. I never heard of terminal level slots in that matter.

So, again, I guess a slot is a permission of either a) the government transport authority, the airport authority, or terminal owner/operator.
 
kaitak744
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:52 am

I sense there will soon be a huge over capacity on LHR-US flights. So many airlines are wanting to take advantage of the open skies treaty.

Quoting Aisak (Reply 10):
Anyway. Does anybody have the schedule of terminal changes at LHR when T5 opens? If I'm not mistaken, only BA has published the 4 stages to move onto T5 and T3. Given flights for March onwards are now bookable, it would be interesting to know as transfer times can change if airlines swap terminals.

Well, as soon as T5A and B opens, BA will completely leave T1 and T4. Also, T2 will be shutdown and demolished and the outer pier of T3 (the one with AA and UA flights) will be demolished. So, in order to make up for the lost gate space at T3 and the additional BA fights at T3, all non-alligned airlines will have to move to T4, along with SkyTeam. Also, the StarAlliance move to T1 will therefor have to happen at that time. The only exception to this is that SAS will stay in T3 for some weird reasons, and all A380 operators will have to stay in T3 until Heathrow East is built.

So, the massive airline terminal changes should happen at one time (with the exception of BA at T3).
 
albird87
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:43 am

I think you will find that also SQ and VA are staying at T3 for now also. They have too many flights a day to operate just out of T2 (as i beleive T4 is going to sky team plus other non Star Alliance partners).
All i can say is you may think that T5 will help but i feel its gonna get a lot worse before it gets better!! (unless ur travelling only on BA!)
 
albird87
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:47 am

I think you will find also that SQ and VA will be staying at T3 for now until Heathrow East gets built. I doubt that T1 has enough heavy gates for them (as T4 will be sky teams terminal plus other non Star Alliance partners). All i can say is T5 isnt going to make LHR anybetter just yet (unless your travelling on BA) and that its going to be chaos in the other terminals until Heathrow East gets built and that will calm things down a bit!!
 
Aisak
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:58 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 13):
Well, as soon as T5A and B opens, BA will completely leave T1 and T4



Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 13):
So, the massive airline terminal changes should happen at one time

Well, That's not what BA says:

On March 28th BA will move to T5:
Short-haul Airbuses from T1
Long-haul from T1
Long-haul from T3 (MIA)
Short-haul from T4
But Euro-757 and GB airways will remain at T1 until July. Also long-haul flights from T4 will stay there until May and services to Australia won't move to T3 until September.

I suppose Iberia and Finnair will move to T3 along with BA in July and Qantas will do so in Septemeber but nothing has been published, neither by the airlines involved nor BAA. I'm just curious why such a delay from March to September. I just expected some movements in between by other airlines but... nothing?
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:21 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 13):
So, the massive airline terminal changes should happen at one time (with the exception of BA at T3).

No. They will be phased slowly over the summer.
When BA moves to T5 in March, the first flights to move are all shorthaul operations except the B757 which will stay at T1. The Longhaul from T1 and T3 will move, but the rest of the T4 operation will stay at T4 for another month. At the end of April all Longhaul will move to T5 except the JSA operation to Australia.
The next airline to move will be United who will move out of T3 in May.
 
flytuitravel
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:25 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 7):
EIN slot pairs are arr/dep 0705 0815 and 1725 1830
RTM slot pairs are arr/dep 0715 0750, 1615 1705, 2015 2100

You could do a 0715 arrival and a 0815 departure? Would be tight but I'm sure NW could take the chance with a 752 to DTW just to get in at LHR. They could work with KL to swap some AMS slots around to handle bigger A/C.
 
ekskycargo370
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:40 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 13):

LHR meltdown here we come!
 
vv701
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:46 am

Quoting Jcavinato (Reply 12):
Rivet, Thanks. So, in this case it might be both BAA with regards to utilization of, say, T3 as well as the UK government transport authorities with landing permissions at LHR.

The UK government has no direct influence or involvement in slot allocation or management at LHR. BAA, the airport owner, is a subsidiary of a Spanish construction company. An independent company, Airport Co-ordination Ltd, owned by a consortium of airlines, is responsible for slot allocation and monitoring slot usage, the imposition of fines for slot misuse and the confiscation and reallocation of slots. It operates strictly within regulations laid down by the EU and IATA. So UK government influence is only indirect through influence in a majority voting system of the 26 EU countries.

The only other influence the British government has at LHR and, indeed, LGW, STN and MAN is through the UK planning laws for, for example, a new or replacement terminal or a new runway. But here again it can only act as an instigator and a final arbiter and by changing the planning laws. Everything in between is either the responsibility of the airport owners or - in terms of interpreting the planning laws - the independent judiciary.
 
pilot21
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:21 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 13):
Well, as soon as T5A and B opens, BA will completely leave T1 and T4. Also, T2 will be shutdown and demolished and the outer pier of T3 (the one with AA and UA flights) will be demolished. So, in order to make up for the lost gate space at T3 and the additional BA fights at T3, all non-alligned airlines will have to move to T4, along with SkyTeam. Also, the StarAlliance move to T1 will therefor have to happen at that time. The only exception to this is that SAS will stay in T3 for some weird reasons, and all A380 operators will have to stay in T3 until Heathrow East is built.

So, the massive airline terminal changes should happen at one time (with the exception of BA at T3).

No, everything is happening in stages over the course of next year.

BA short-haul and long-haul from T3 will move when T5 opens next March. T4 will move at the end of April. B757's will go to T3, while all OZ flights will go there as well.

T2 demolition is hoped to be started in mid-summer 2008, but BAA have said that once T4 is vacated by BA (end of April 08) they will refurish it before anybody moves in (not sure what happens to KLM/Kenya etc), so that means T1 and T3 guys wil stay put until summer at least.
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Aisak
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:31 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 11):
Well, as soon as T5A and B opens, BA will completely leave T1 and T4



Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 11):
So, the massive airline terminal changes should happen at one time

Well, That's not what BA says:

On March 28th BA will move to T5:
Short-haul Airbuses from T1
Long-haul from T1
Long-haul from T3 (MIA)
Short-haul from T4
But Euro-757 and GB airways will remain at T1 until July. Also long-haul flights from T4 will stay there until May and services to Australia won't move to T3 until September.

I suppose Iberia and Finnair will move to T3 along with BA in July and Qantas will do so in Septemeber but nothing has been published, neither by the airlines involved nor BAA. I'm just curious why such a delay from March to September. I just expected some movements in between by other airlines but... nothing?
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:50 pm

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 13):
I think you will find also that SQ and VA will be staying at T3 for now until Heathrow East gets built

Yep, in SQ's case to accomodate the A380.

Roll on Heathrow East and all Star Airlines under one roof!
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:28 pm

Quoting Aisak (Reply 14):
I suppose Iberia and Finnair will move to T3 along with BA in July and Qantas will do so in Septemeber but nothing has been published, neither by the airlines involved nor BAA. I'm just curious why such a delay from March to September. I just expected some movements in between by other airlines but... nothing?

After the initial move into T5, the next airline to move will be United out of T3. This space will then be refurbished to allow BA and Qantas (and others) to move in to T3. The One world operation in T3 will be large
 
blueflyer
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:49 pm

Quoting Jcavinato (Reply 6):
A question I have about slots: Is it technically a permission to land/take off, is it a gate access, or is it a general permission to serve the airport? How is a slot technically defined?



Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 9):
it's very unlikely that anyone would be able to 'acquire' by whatever means available a large aircaft slot for that time.

A slot is related to runway capacity, not terminal/gate/parking capacity. You can technically have a slot to land and take off without having space to park the plane anywhere in between...

In fact, airport operator BAA has repeatedly said that it might be possible to add a few more daily slots at certain peak hours of the day, but that it wouldn't make any sense because parking/gate space is so severely limited that whoever gets the slot could be operating from different terminals on different days, and even offload at one terminal and board at another. In other words, getting slots is half of the problem. The other half is getting the physical space for the plane and its passengers.
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ANother
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:20 pm

Any slot 'trade' has to be approved by ACL (Airport Coordination Limited) the independent coordinator which manages LHR's slots. Their approval means that the trade is technically feasible. A trade of a 0715 F50 arrival slot at T4 for a 0715 B777 arrival at T2 may not meet the requirement that the new operation is feasible.
 
vv701
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:29 pm

Quoting Jcavinato (Reply 10):
So, in this case it might be both BAA with regards to utilization of, say, T3 as well as the UK government transport authorities with landing permissions at LHR.

Neither BAA or the British government have control or influence over slot allocation at LHR (or indeed at LGW, STN or MAN). Slots at these four airports are issued, controlled and where necessary confiscated by Airport Co-ordination Ltd. an independent company owned by a consortium of airlines. As ANother has indicated in Reply 2 and Reply 18 ACL operates within the regulations laid down by the EU and the guidelines issued by IATA. The only "say" the British government has in all of this relates to bilateral air agreements which are administered through the Civil Aviation Authority. However as time passes and more and more agreements are negotiated by the EU to replace the bilaterals previously operated by EU member companies, so even this indirect government influence declines.

In the case of potential services between the UK and the USA under the EU Open Skies agreement the UK government has one indirect area of influence. Although construction of new terminals and runways can be influenced by government aviation policy the actual construction can only proceed after the exhaustive (and, in the case of T5 at LHR, very exhaustive) planning procedures laid down on the 1948 Town and Country Planning Act ass subsequently modified. However both those organisations proposing such a development and those objecting to it can, after due process, appeal to the government minister responsible if they dislike the planning decision. However that minister would need to put forward a strong case to overthrow a decision made by the High Court.
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: Latest On LHR Slots (DL, CO, US, NW)

Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:49 pm

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 16):
After the initial move into T5, the next airline to move will be United out of T3.

Allegedly...  Smile
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