BestWestern
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Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:17 pm

Lots of rumours (BD crew) that BD have cancelled their latest A332 order (lease).

Can anyone confirm or deny...

If true, its yet another BD fiasco... How many times do they announce things, and then back down weeks later? I cannot believe that they fight for nearly a decade for open skies, and when it comes they go.. ehhh, not interested!
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Eirules
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:24 pm

Unfortunately this is just typical of the kind of madness we have come to expect from BD. The only thing that will make this decision ok, if it is true, is if they anounce an order for an alternative L/H aircraft, but surely that wont be ready for years? This cant really be true, can it?
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bmiexpat
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:32 pm

Becuase of the postponement of the launch of US flights from LHR until spring 2009, bmi have decided to defer the delivery of the new A330s by a year. This makes sense considering their concentration on the BMED merger and the desire to see what develops with other carriers to the US out of LHR rather than jump in and risk being burnt like they were with Mumbai.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:42 pm

2006
28 Mar bmi urges approval of EU–US open skies agreement
29 Jun UK and US governments should learn lessons of 20 years of European deregulation says bmi chairman
They even produce a report: http://www.flybmi.com/downloads/bmi/2020Reportfinal.pdf

2007
22 Mar bmi praises UK Government’s support of EU-US open skies deal
10 Jul bmi unveils $750 million fleet acquisition plan - five Airbus A330s ...
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BestWestern
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:53 pm

Quoting Bmiexpat (Reply 2):
risk being burnt like they were with Mumbai.

But BMI were 'forced' from Mumbai, or have you not drunk the BD spin yet again..

Quoting Bmiexpat (Reply 2):
rather than jump in and risk being burnt

Normally airlines do their analysis first, then order aircraft. BD seem to do it the other way around.

Quoting Bmiexpat (Reply 2):
postponement of the launch of US flights from LHR until spring 2009

"The transatlantic Open Skies decision will create genuine competition and enable bmi to provide services to the US from our operational hub at Heathrow from March 2008," he said.


2005

In October, following the re-start of EU/US talks on opens skies, bmi demands that the restrictive Bermuda II agreements be abolished. After follow-up talks in November, bmi welcome US proposals on relaxing ownership rules for US domiciled airlines


2004

In May, bmi chairman Sir Michael Bishop says the vested interests of BA and Virgin should not be allowed to block a landmark ‘open skies’ deal between the US and the EU


2001

In February, bmi british midland steps up its open skies campaign with the announcement that it would be seeking a European Commission review into the lack of competition on transatlantic routes from Heathrow
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Leezyjet
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:14 pm

Bmi have been campaigning for open skies for around a decade at least. They were lobbying for it when I worked for them back in 1998 !!!. Now Open Skies is finally here, they don't want to play ???. What did they expect when it got the go-ahead, for other airlines not to bother so they would have the pick of the routes ???.

 crazy 
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
BestWestern
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:21 pm

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 5):
What did they expect when it got the go-ahead, for other airlines not to bother so they would have the pick of the routes ???.

They DO have the pick of the routes, as they have all the heathrow slots. They even retrofitted their A332 seating to compete at heathrow. BD are running scared....

They are now flying to places Ryanair consider too remote! even on Moscow - (BA's cash cow flown with rust bucket 767's) - BD cant compete - with a better aircraft, better service, better crew.


Whats Bmi's future?
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Danny
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:26 pm

BMI hasn't placed any order as far as I know. The reality is there are no A332 available on the lease market so BD won't be part of open skies game. Should have planned fleet earlier.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:29 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 7):
reality is there are no A332 available on the lease market so BD won't be part of open skies game. Should have planned fleet earlier.

A bit like TLV - they make an announcement prior to even having the route rights?

BMI - latest 2007 booker prize nominee for fiction.
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trekster
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:31 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 6):
Whats Bmi's future?

No idea, and they have no idea either.

No one will forget the MAN-IAD flt with a white 757.
Where does the time go???
 
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OA260
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:40 pm

Quoting Bmiexpat (Reply 2):
Becuase of the postponement of the launch of US flights from LHR until spring 2009, bmi have decided to defer the delivery of the new A330s by a year. This makes sense considering their concentration on the BMED merger and the desire to see what develops with other carriers to the US out of LHR rather than jump in and risk being burnt like they were with Mumbai.

I think they would be better concentrating on their new Ex: Bmed routes . Maybe they can make it more of a success than any new proposed USA flights. They need to settle down and stick to one vision. They do seem to be getting better than they were though.
 
antixx
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:51 pm

Quoting Bmiexpat (Reply 2):
Becuase of the postponement of the launch of US flights from LHR until spring 2009, bmi have decided to defer the delivery of the new A330s by a year. This makes sense considering their concentration on the BMED merger and the desire to see what develops with other carriers to the US out of LHR rather than jump in and risk being burnt like they were with Mumbai.

At last - someone on here with some sense! Yes, we all know that bmi was desperate for Open Skies and as soon as it was announced, they said they would go for it - however it also happened very soon after the acquisition of B|MED. Having evaluated what was best (for a change), they have opted to focus on the B|MED integration first and then look west to the States. That does not mean that the A332 order is cancelled - it is only deferred. The A332s which they could take early next year do not share the current fleet commonalities and quite rightly, they prefer to wait another 10/12 months until they can get the aircraft that fit into the current fleet structure. Very wise move, otherwise the costs involved would outweigh the benefits (eg everyone involved would require retraining, etc) and at least this way, they can see the dog fight from LHR begin and carefully pick and choose what they want to do - rather than diving into the market, as happened with Mumbai

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 6):
even retrofitted their A332 seating to compete at heathrow. BD are running scared....

Think you will find that the decision to refit was taken long before Open Skies came about!
 
BestWestern
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting Antixx (Reply 11):
Think you will find that the decision to refit was taken long before Open Skies came about!

So, BD retrofitted the aircraft for non competition routes?

NO - BD retrofitted in anticipation of Openskies - which was well flagged this time around.

Quoting Antixx (Reply 11):
however it also happened very soon after the acquisition of B|MED

They ordered the aircraft after the acquisition announcement.

Quoting Antixx (Reply 11):
That does not mean that the A332 order is cancelled - it is only deferred

Just like the original A332 order deferral I wonder?

Quoting Antixx (Reply 11):
costs involved would outweigh the benefits (

So, why did they order the aircraft in the first place.

BMI - heathrows second largest airline, have all the slots needed, the aircraft on order - and allow others to capture the market!

No wonder my gold card will look silver in February - after 4 years of Gold.

[Edited 2007-10-11 15:00:43]
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ZKOJH
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:58 pm

What ever you are reading, is not true, BD are Still taking the 5 A332 but have had problems getting them, they will take them in 2009, I looked at the internal email about 5 hrs ago on the wall in the the BD/WW EMA staff room, also stated that the 1st A321 is due in May of next year.
Vietnam time..
 
antixx
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:35 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 12):
So, BD retrofitted the aircraft for non competition routes?

NO - BD retrofitted in anticipation of Openskies - which was well flagged this time around.

Don't remember that being announced last year... before Open Skies! If they were only retrofitting for Open Skies, then why are the aircraft not being sent to LHR as of Summer 08?!? The product, especially in the Business, was becoming dated and Premium Economy was basically Economy with a few extra inches of legroom - it was about time the products were enhanced!

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 12):
They ordered the aircraft after the acquisition announcement.

When did I say otherwise? First came B|MED, then came Open Skies and then came the order. They thought they could do everything, however they have learned some very valuable lessons from the B|MED integration and sensibly have come to the decision to look East first, then West later - which you are now highly critical of. At the time though, if they had come straight out and said they would wait until 2009 to go transatlantic ex-LHR, you would no doubt have slaughtered them for that as well!

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 12):
So, why did they order the aircraft in the first place.

As said - they thought they could do everything but the B|MED integration has taught them a lot. The amount of work being undertaken to ensure a single AOC across the two fleets come Winter 07 is vast and the time and money being spent on crew training, etc is enormous - so while they could get some 330s come Summer 08, operating a 'mixed' fleet is more hassle than it's worth... hence the deferment until they get A332s that match current commonality.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 12):
BMI - heathrows second largest airline, have all the slots needed, the aircraft on order - and allow others to capture the market!

So what routes / rotations get the chop as they don't have slots sitting there doing nothing? And did they not just dive in to Mumbai with everyone else - and look what happened there!

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 12):
No wonder my gold card will look silver in February - after 4 years of Gold.

If they are so awful and badly managed, why don't you take a stand and send whatever card you've got back to them and only fly with other carriers!
 
blrBird
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:44 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 7):
BMI hasn't placed any order as far as I know. The reality is there are no A332 available on the lease market

IT is slated to start receiving their first batch of 5 (332) ordered a while back and they dont have permission to fly abroad! they might lease those aircrafts.
from star dust....
 
lovinitflyboy
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:34 pm

Quoting BlrBird (Reply 15):
IT is slated to start receiving their first batch of 5 (332) ordered a while back and they dont have permission to fly abroad! they might lease those aircrafts.

what on earth are you talking about???
 
vv701
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 6):
They DO have the pick of the routes, as they have all the heathrow slots.

They certainly have a substantial number of LHR slots - around 14 per cent of the total. But you cannot fit a quart into a pint pot. As part of their deal to absorb BMED BD will be adding eight aircraft to their fleet but will be transferring the 54 KJ LHR slots to BA. So effectively BD will have eight more aircraft flying out of LHR but no additional slots for them to use.

This means that they will need to transfer slots from their well established short haul routes to the new medium haul KJ routes. By replacing short haul services with medium haul services the impact on BD's short haul fleet will not be too severe. But there will be an impact. It means they will either have to run their LHR short haul fleet less efficiently than they have done in the past or transfer one or more likely two or possibly even three aircraft to operate out of another airport.

Clearly if they had decided to immediately persue the possibilities that Open Skies creates for them they would also have needed to transfer slots from their short haul to long haul fleet thus making more BD LHR based short haul aircraft redundant and, presumably, reducing the feed into other Star Alliance airlines sevices.

A final consideration is the Star Alliance itself. Open Skies offers the Alliance other opportunities and I am sure that BD management have been talking to the management of their partner airlines as to how best to exploit those opportunities with the slots and the aircraft that they have in their fleets.
 
GDB
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:22 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 6):
They are now flying to places Ryanair consider too remote! even on Moscow - (BA's cash cow flown with rust bucket 767's)

Last time I looked, that's up close in a hangar, our 767's were far from 'rust buckets'.

If BMI have issues with their A332's, they can give the UK Ministry Of Defence a call.
 
babybus
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:23 am

To me it just seems BD have no marketing or route planning department. Unless the route is a monopoly like LHR-MME, or has tons of limitless traffic like LHR-DUB and LHR-MAN etc they don't seem able to hold their own.

They invest no money in any of their routes. Look at the money BA put into India with new special uniforms. And BD were originally selling JED and RUH like a holiday destination! There are no tourists allowed into Saudi Arabia.

BTW I think the thread title should be changed to "BMI may cancel A332 lease". It sounds like they found fault with the aircraft, not the fact they can't organise themselves.  Wink
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:51 am

Quoting Antixx (Reply 14):
why don't you take a stand and send whatever card you've got back to them and only fly with other carriers!

What a great attitude to have with a BD*G passenger who is loyal, and pays your wages. Why dont I send my card back - because I like bmi, the crew and onboard service. I also have nearly 200k hard earned bd points. The bd staff in the domestic lounge at heathrow know me by name - i'm one of the few who always say thanks when I leave the lounge apparantly. I have been silver or gold since 2000, flying short haul BD miles.

Its BD headoffice that are too removed from reality. Constant knee jerk reactions to everything - their strategy lasts six months - blame everyone else for their problems - press releases that push the boundries of truth. employment practices that push cabin crew and ground staff to breaking point. I could go on, but I just get annoyed, and fustrated that an airline with such potential is being run on a whim - remember 'tiny' fares at heathrow?

For example, BD have jumped into Bmed, when DME clearly isnt working, and as a result in taking on more than they can chew - they cannot take advantage of their biggest opportunity in decades - something well flagged, and executed prior to finalisation of the BMED transaction. (not announcement - finalisation). However, they went as far as ordering, and announcing the new A330's, and are now looking for an excuse.... eh - wrong commonality, eh - cant find them, eh - 'forced to drop BOM' blah blah.

Quoting GDB (Reply 18):
Last time I looked, that's up close in a hangar, our 767's were far from 'rust buckets'.

Oh, come off it - the BA euro767's are a disgrace - the aircraft are falling apart - ask any of the cabin crew. 1 overhead screen in four will actually work in colour. Yet BA can still fill 19+ rows of business to moscow.

Quoting Antixx (Reply 14):
And did they not just dive in to Mumbai with everyone else - and look what happened there!

Yet, were 'forced' to drop the market - Forced by who.. BTW - how is that court case with Airbus.

Quoting Antixx (Reply 11):
they could take early next year do not share the current fleet commonalities

So, what was the reason for ordering them six months ago. How much did it cost to defer the order?
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UAL777UK
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:21 am

I like BD, just flown them again to Naples, used the lounge, I find all the staff well mannered prefessional and courteous, unlike some of my flights I have had on another large domestic carrier.

However in saying that IMHO BD have "lost" a little direction and keep chopping and changing what they are and arn't going to do, what routes to open etc. I am sure if LH were to buy SAS stake, things would be a whole lot different and they could as they should, become a powerhouse at LHR and MAN for that matter and be a force to be reckoned with.

Just my  twocents 
 
antixx
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:51 am

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 20):
What a great attitude to have with a BD*G passenger who is loyal, and pays your wages

Slightly off topic, but what do you mean? You don't pay my wages - am not staff, I'm BD*G too!

My question is though, if you like Midland so much, why do you slate them so much? Everyone kicked off when they introduced the New Business Model ex-LHR two years ago (indeed some on this site still moan about the fact that they can't get a free tea or coffee), but these days, it's the norm and expected. Let's cut them some slack, let them sort out B|MED first and then head for the States. They have a great longhaul product, even more so with the Business and Premium Economy enhancements and am sure when the time comes, the wait will have been worth it!
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:03 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 17):
As part of their deal to absorb BMED BD will be adding eight aircraft to their fleet but will be transferring the 54 KJ LHR slots to BA.

Smart move ! Buy the airline, give away the one useful asset the airline has  Smile How are BD planning to fill these BMed routes ? To fill flights to Bishkek and Kharthoum you need LONGHAULL FEEEDDD !! BD has NO LONGHAUL FEEDDD ! These flights are going to be filled by the BA codeshare pax, that's how. Can anyone say "franchise operation" ?

Quoting Antixx (Reply 22):
Everyone kicked off when they introduced the New Business Model ex-LHR two years ago (indeed some on this site still moan about the fact that they can't get a free tea or coffee), but these days, i

The NBM is doing so well BD can't seem to give away their NCE flights. BA can fill 4 or 5 757's a day LHR-NCE (plus a LGW rotation) and BD can't even fill a 319 - and they lost the AF codeshare too because of the drop in service levels on board. Time for BD to join OS, LO etc as an LH feed-me clone.
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BrianDromey
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:18 am

I dont think BD actaully placed any firm order for these aircraft?

Quoting VV701 (Reply 17):
But there will be an impact. It means they will either have to run their LHR short haul fleet less efficiently than they have done in the past or transfer one or more likely two or possibly even three aircraft to operate out of another airport.

I think this is an interesting point, and it does open up a significant new oppertunity for BD. The logical place to operate these would be MAN? Flying to major business destinations and offering connections to the long haul services But where can BD fly to that wont step on the toes of *A partners, and/or WW? I guess they could target some of the Jet2 routes, but a lot of these are very leisure orientated, and should not fit in with the current strategy. Perhaps WW could move off some roues at MAN, and focus seriously on BHX?

Alternitively these potentially 'spare' aircraft could be sent to scotland to launch new european services from there. This is thr problme with so many brands and products in such a small airline, thisng start getting complicated.

Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
 
BestWestern
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:04 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 24):
I dont think BD actaully placed any firm order for these aircraft?

So, when they announced the order they were telling fibs?

So, when they announced the deferral, what were they deferring?

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 24):
BD fly to that wont step on the toes of *A partners, and/or WW?

Whats the difference in service standard between BD on LHR MAN, and WW services from MAN?

Quoting VV701 (Reply 17):
transfer one or more likely two or possibly even three aircraft to operate out of another airport.

Or dispose of the aircraft
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ZKOJH
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:37 pm

well, they need something to fly, the following routes, which are identfied as key markets for bd,

Kiev, Minsk,, Kuwait City, Lahore, Tel Aviv, Dammam and Sana'a and they also want to increase Moscow , tho heard that, Barbados and Las Vegas are planned to be chopped,
Vietnam time..
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:09 am

Drop BGI and LAS for LHE and DMM ? Are they nuts ? LAS and BGI might both be leisure destinations (although LAS has a fair bit of business/convention traffic, and BGI is, or can be, top-end leisure with people continuing on to Mustique, Petit SV etc) but DMM and LHE are non-tourist destinations - VFR only for LHE, and who on earth goes to DMM ? Maybe oil traffic, but if you haven't got feed from Texas, what's the point ?
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BestWestern
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:44 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 27):
Are they nuts ?

Well, now that you come to say it.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 27):
DMM

Another BD route announced, but never flown. Way too small for anything but a BBJ
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BrianDromey
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:49 pm

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 25):
So, when they announced the order they were telling fibs?

No, but I dont believe that they place the order directly with Airbus? I understood that tehy were leasing the A330s? I dont think a firm time for delivery was ever announced, only "Spring 2008"

Quoting Bestwestern (Reply 25):
Whats the difference in service standard between BD on LHR MAN, and WW services from MAN?

Very little, to be honest....
1) Staff uniforms
2) Lounge Access policy - all WW customers must pay in advance, regardless of DC status
3) No 'blue plus' benifits
4) No free baggage allowances
5) No interlining with *A or BD mainline
6) No BD status miles, only destinations
7) No Jetbridges at most destinations

Thats about it, really. No massive diferences, BD staff handle WW PAX too, so no problems there. Menzies under the wing, just like big dady.

The on-bards catering is all but identical to BD, as far as I can tell.

I do hope BD get their house in order, and deferring the 330s is a good move, IMHO. It give them time to look at the B|MED routes, and see which work, and which dont. Some of these routes could well be upgraded to 330s, as I cant see BD having too massive a TA network from LHR, *A partners UA, NZ and soon, AI cover USA, ex LHR pretty well.

I dont doubt that BD will serve some niche destinations from LHR, but I dont think JFK, BOS, etc will be served.

Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
 
bmiexpat
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RE: Bmi Cancel Their A332 Order?

Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:49 pm

Given the proliferation of announcements regarding other airlines launching flights next summer from LHR to the states, I think it's a good job that bmi have postponed the launch of their own flights to the US. Surely it's better to let everyone else scramble over what's on offer, let the dust settle along with the no doubt initial price war, and then use the resources that bmi have plenty of, slots, to launch new routes once the market has stablised. By then they should have been able to source A330s that meet their exact requirements.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 23):
These flights are going to be filled by the BA codeshare pax, that's how. Can anyone say "franchise operation" ?

What exactly is wrong with bmi offering BA a codeshare agreement on the BMED routes, surely that just means more passengers on bmi aircraft? BA can no longer offer flights to these destinations so pretty much have no choice when their longhaul passengers want to connect to the ex BMED destinations. I can't see what your problem is!

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