Orion737
Topic Author
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Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:30 pm

I believe Asuncion is one of the few Spanish speaking South American capital cities with no IB service. I remember LAP used to use a 77 on a service to madrid years ago so surely a Spanish carrier could make a direcr link to the capital of Paraguay work.
 
CV990
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:36 pm

Hi!

LAP operated to MAD using first the 707, latter the DC-8-63 and also a DC-10-30 leased by RG. In the past ( I think back to the 70's ) IB flew to ASU with the DC-10 and LH also! I was in ASU in June 2004 and the only "heavy metal" I saw there was AA 763. I flew from CWB with JJ ( TAM Mercosur F100 ) and it was excelent!
I think AA wants to return to ASU in 2008.
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
CODCAIAH
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:03 pm

ASU certainly needs more carriers! It would be great if IB flew there, perhaps using a triangle route with EZE?
CO/IAH-loyalist happily driven into the arms of WN/HOU
 
RAFVC10
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:22 pm

Hi all,

if I don't remember bad, Iberia used to operate to ASU in codeshare with TAM Mercosur aircrafts from EZE and great timetables to connect arrival and departure flights.

Adding to, a not bad idea to serve Paraguay, would be great to see the 340's of Iberia operating to VVI or LPB.
By the way, has LPB enough runway to take wide-bodied aircrafts?

Regards,

Gerard
El dia que los gilipollas vuelen, no podremos ver la luz del sol!
 
cyba
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:51 pm

Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 3):
By the way, has LPB enough runway to take wide-bodied aircrafts?

AFAIK, LPB is at too high an altitude and the runway too short for fully loaded planes to be able to take off. Planes travelling long distances (e.g. AA to MIA) have to stop in VVI for refueling.
 
BBADXB
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:39 pm

IB is operating 5x weekly to Montevideo. On the days it does not operate to Montevideo, it could introduce a flight from Madrid to Paraguay (don't have an idea of which city/airport would be the most profitable/able to handle a widebody on a longhaul to MAD) and then onwards from Paraguay to Montevideo, with the aircraft returning to MAD via Paraguay. I know that twice weekly does not sound that appealing to high-yield customers, but then again, it's better to have a twice weekly than nothing at all.

BBADXB  sun 
 
BBADXB
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:54 pm

If there's enough market to serve LPB or VVI in Bolivia, combined with Asuncion in Paraguay, then an Iberia flight originating from Madrid to Asuncion with a tag on to VVI or LPB, returning to MAD via Asuncion could be interesting... or vice-versa, in order to avoid backtracking, but can VVI and LPB handle widebodies bound for longhauls?

BBADXB  sun 
 
BBADXB
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:07 pm

If LPB cannot accommodate widebodies bound for longhauls, another solution could be a triangular routing MAD-LPB-ASU-MAD, similar to the GUA-SJO flight IB operated for a while (do they still do MAD-GUA-SJO-MAD?).

BBADXB  sun 
 
WonderFan
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:46 pm

Quoting BBADXB (Reply 7):
If LPB cannot accommodate widebodies bound for longhauls, another solution could be a triangular routing MAD-LPB-ASU-MAD, similar to the GUA-SJO flight IB operated for a while (do they still do MAD-GUA-SJO-MAD?).

No, they do not operate MAD-GUA-SJO-MAD anymore. Instead, SJO has a dedicated daily flight while GUA is coupled with PTY (MAD-GUA-PTY-MAD) at a frequency of three times a week.

Quoting BBADXB (Reply 6):
If there's enough market to serve LPB or VVI in Bolivia, combined with Asuncion in Paraguay, then an Iberia flight originating from Madrid to Asuncion with a tag on to VVI or LPB, returning to MAD via Asuncion could be interesting... or vice-versa, in order to avoid backtracking, but can VVI and LPB handle widebodies bound for longhauls?

VVI can definitely handle longhaul widebodies: Aerosur has flown a 747 between MAD and VVI in the past and continues to fly the route, although I think with a smaller capacity plane (due reduction of traffic after the visa requirement for Bolivians went into effect.) I think LPB might have some restrictions though, among other reasons, because of the altitude.
 
LatinPlane
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:53 pm

There are many reasons why Iberia does not fly to Asuncion, and once you try to understand why, then you realize that it doesn't appear likely that the situation will change in the near future.

1. There is no sizable community of Paraguayans in Spain. Paraguay itself is a very unpopulated country, and most Paraguayan ex-pats are either in Argentina, or to a smaller degree in the U.S. Unlike other South American countries which have big communities in Spain/Europe. No VFR market! (Very important to IB, and one of the reasons it is so profitable). For example, there are more Ecuadorian citizens living in Spain, than Paraguayans living in Paraguay!

2. Business ties between the two countries are minimal. There are very few investments by private Spanish companies in Paraguay. Very little to no business traffic between the two points, making it very unattractive for Iberia.

3. Paraguay doesn't really export anything to Europe. No hypothetical cargo revenue there that can be carried.

4. Paraguay is not a tourist destination. Paraguay has never developed its tourist industry, unlike all other Latin American countries (except for a few) where tourism is an important part of the GDP. The country is largely flat with very few national attractions that are internationally known.

5. Paraguay's economy is largely undeveloped and small. Its per-capita has stagnated to 1980 levels making it very difficult for most Paraguayans, but the few very wealthy to travel to Europe.


LAP - Lineas Aereas Paraguayas was the government owned airline controlled by Paraguay's air force conceived by its military government for national pride. If all the other countries had national airlines, then why couldn't Paraguay have its own national airline! LAP flew to Madrid, Brussels, and Frankfurt, but its niche was based on offering the lowest fares between South America and Europe/North America with a connection in Asuncion. At a time when international travel was still very much an expensive option flying on Varig, Aerolineas Argentinas, Lan Chile, it was LAP that offered the cheapest fares to tourist headed to or from South America. After all, there wasn't enough demand between Paraguay and Europe/North America for LAP to sustain itself.

I would like to remind you that Iberia is no longer the airline that stands to symbolize the Spanish colonial crown that will fly to all of Span's former colonies for the benefit of diplomacy and political gestures unless there is a very reasonable situation there for it to do so. It is the reason why Iberia doesn't fly to San Salvador, El Salvador; Managua, Nicaragua; San Pedro Sula, Honduras; Asuncion, Paraguay; and, Manila, The Philippines!

I now leave you with this youtube video I found about LAP - Lineas Aereas Paraguayas for your enjoyment.



 Smile LatinPlane
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
upperdeckfan
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting Latinplane (Reply 9):
There are many reasons why Iberia does not fly to Asuncion, and once you try to understand why, then you realize that it doesn't appear likely that the situation will change in the near future.

If IB remains independente, long haul fleet is planned to go from 30 to 60 a/c over the next 5 years, this will mean several new stations in LatAm.

I can tell you that ASU is on the top 5 on IB list for new routes in LatAm, whether it will be a non stop or coupled with other station like MVD, GIG, LPB or VVI time will tell, but you can bet on seeing IB metal in ASU not so far.
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LatinPlane
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:54 pm

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 10):
I can tell you that ASU is on the top 5 on IB list for new routes in LatAm, whether it will be a non stop or coupled with other station like MVD, GIG, LPB or VVI time will tell, but you can bet on seeing IB metal in ASU not so far.

Well, then I guess I'll be completely wrong in the future. That's actually a good thing. If Iberia can make Asuncion work, more power to them.

What I wonder is why they haven't started either LPB, or VVI since there is a proven lucrative market there.

I also wonder whether we'll see IB in Asuncion before we see them opening secondary Latin American destinations that should be more profitable like: Cali and Medellin in Colombia, or Monterrey and Guadalajara in Mexico, or even Cordova in Argentina, and all those other destinations in Brazil where it can compete against TAP?

 Smile LatinPlane
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
WonderFan
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:58 pm

Quoting Latinplane (Reply 9):
For example, there are more Ecuadorian citizens living in Spain, than Paraguayans living in Paraguay!

What? Paraguay: 6 million people vs. Ecuadorians in Spain: just over 400 thousand. Not even close.
 
LatinPlane
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:09 pm

Quoting WonderFan (Reply 12):
What? Paraguay: 6 million people vs. Ecuadorians in Spain: just over 400 thousand. Not even close.

I stand corrected. I should double check my sources. I was reading a spanish website and it read thousands.

 Smile LatinPlane
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
civilav
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting Latinplane (Reply 9):
I would like to remind you that Iberia is no longer the airline that stands to symbolize the Spanish colonial crown that will fly to all of Span's former colonies for the benefit of diplomacy and political gestures unless there is a very reasonable situation there for it to do so.

LatinPlane,

Allow me to explain something to you.
In the Franco days of the late 60s and early 70s, Iberia did fly to every single South American capital bar Brasilia (in the case of Brazil, it was Rio and Sao) and, in the case of Ecuador, it also included Guayaquil.
Asunción and La Paz were definitely on the map route with two weekly frequencies each.

Nothing Colonial about it I am afraid. Pure business sense: IBERIA had 5th Freedom Rights in all these markets and could pick up passengers in, say, Sao and take them to Asunción or to Buenos Aires if that was the case.
One legendaray 1969 DC-8 route schedule was Madrid-Caracas-Bogotá-Quito-Lima-La Paz-Santiago. The whole Andean network sewn up and with complete freedom to drop and pick up passengers everywhere !!

Spain's aviation negotiatiors were very canny in those days and really got tremendous support and openness from local governments. There was reciprocity, too, regarding South American airlines and 5th Freedom Rights in European skies but clearly they were no match for IBERIA's punctuality and service then (not referring to onboard service or customer relations friendliness... those have always been appalling almost to this day like I have stated many times in previous posts) plus a very well-established hub at Barajas with easy connections to every major European capital.

Bolivia, with Hugo Banzer's government was the first to abrogate IBERIA's 5th Freedom Rights and services were terminated in 1972 if my memory serves me correctly (I had already left Spain and was living in London). Venezuela followed next in 1974 with the then petrodollar-bloated government of Carlos Andres Perez. IBERIA was to launch services to Maracaibo in June that year and these were abrupbtly suspended.

As a side note, the Allende marxist government never interfered with IBERIA's rights. Services were downgraded to Santiago (in early 1970 well before Allende got elected and a few months before LAN inaugurated services to Europe in June that year, Santiago was served through the Andean countries and through Argentina) only because of the country's economic turmoil and steady difficulty of its citizens to travel abroad.

Hope this note helps understand a bit more why IBERIA, devoid of 5th Freedom Rights pulled out of Asunción altogether. But make no mistake: ALL South American routes were highly profitable and none was operated for diplomatic or political purposes !!

Greetings from Cancún !
 
vincewy
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:36 am

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 10):
If IB remains independente, long haul fleet is planned to go from 30 to 60 a/c over the next 5 years, this will mean several new stations in LatAm.

I'd love to see this happen, I just don't see how IB can fit into either BA, AF/KL, or LH 's networks and be merged. Even TP and AY are finding their own niche markets. Also what long haul aircrafts would IB be looking at?
 
stationmanager
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:27 pm

Both ASU and VVI are very low yield market although VVI is a big market, VVI is being studied by IB and has been announced as one of the possible next new destinations, we will see IB in VVI in the future but I think ASU and Paraguay will have to wait for a long time.
 
bullpitt
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:33 pm

Hi all

I think VVI will also have to wait as the political situation in the country is not the best for foreign companies.
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
upperdeckfan
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:06 pm

Quoting Vincewy (Reply 15):
I just don't see how IB can fit into either BA, AF/KL, or LH 's networks and be merged

What do you mean? IB would fit great into LH or BA networks since both are very weak in LatAm where IB is the strongest player. In case of AF/KL is diferent, but from recent events seems like EU won't allow or will put big conditions for a KL/AF/IB nerger.

Quoting Vincewy (Reply 15):
Also what long haul aircrafts would IB be looking at?

IB is getting 3 A340's early next year and is looking for more on the second hand market, also looking for A330's and in fct there is a thread going on saying they already bought 3 or 4 A333's. I haven't been able to confirm it but my sources tell me that IB have been looking for A332's over A333's.

At the end, IB long haul fleet will be a blend of A340's and A330's until the A350's come on board after 2015.

Quoting Bullpitt (Reply 17):
think VVI will also have to wait as the political situation in the country is not the best for foreign companies

I don't see politics in LatAm as a big factor, one example is CCS, loads and yields on the 3 daily CCS-MAD (IB/S3/UX) are better than ever with all the stuff going on in Venezuela over the last 10 years.
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LatinPlane
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:20 pm

Quoting Civilav (Reply 14):
LatinPlane,

Allow me to explain something to you.
In the Franco days of the late 60s and early 70s, Iberia did fly to every single South American capital bar Brasilia (in the case of Brazil, it was Rio and Sao) and, in the case of Ecuador, it also included Guayaquil.
Asunción and La Paz were definitely on the map route with two weekly frequencies each.

Nothing Colonial about it I am afraid. Pure business sense:

Civilav,

it is always a pleasure when you add your expertize and knowledge to these threads. My Geography-Transportation professor in college once told me that he enjoyed the finest dish of lobster on board an Iberian Airlines DC-8 flying from Lima to Quito. About all you'll get flying LAN these days is a sandwich to be washed down with a cup of Inca Cola!

But let's be realistic here. What would Sabena Belgian-World-Airlines be without its prized African routes? TAP with its Brazilian, Portuguese-African, and its once exotic-orient routes to Goa, India; and Macau.

5th freedom rights were very easy to get in those days by international carriers. Pan Am and Eastern, which both controlled the South America to North America market had plenty of these all along Latin America. Many countries didn't have their own airlines properly built up, and, in the case of Pan Am, they already owned the airlines in those countries. Once these airlines acquired the proper technology, and became independent to make it all the way to Miami or Madrid, things changed.

In that sense, I don't agree that Iberia flew to so many exotic destinations in Latin America purely for economic reasons because as I am about to demonstrate here, what reason was there for Iberia to flying to some of these destinations, other than the fact that Spain still holds a simbolic legacy in these countries that is very important to maintain from both sides?


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Federico Ernesto Anliker Palomo




MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Federico Ernesto Anliker Palomo



A beautiful Iberia DC-8, in an airport somewhere in Latin America in 1977.


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Federico Ernesto Anliker Palomo




MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Federico Ernesto Anliker Palomo



A beautiful Iberia DC-10 somewhere in Latin America in the early 80s.


Okay, well, as you have seen, these pics demonstrate Iberia's operations in San Salvador, El Salvador during the 1970s and 80s. Even today, El Salvador has very few commercial times between Spain other than what the Colonial legacy left behind 200 years ago. These pictures are a treasure because they say a lot and are my most convincing evidence that back up my hypothesis that some of Iberia's operations up until the mid-80s in Latin America were many times flown for political reasons.

The DC-8 and later the DC-10 were flying the Madrid - San Juan - San Jose, C.R. - San Salvador route with 5th freedom rights on all segments. While there was some demand to fly from Spain to Puerto Rico, let's remember that Costa Rica wasn't the tourist attraction (yet) for Spanish vacationers in those days, and San Salvador wasn't a city exactly highly in demand by anyone much less Spanish vacationers (well, perhaps Spanish missionaries) because the country was going through the worst civil war in recent Latin American history. About the only destinations with high demand to/from San Salvador at the time had to be LAX and MIA where all the Salvadorean refugees were headed towards in droves.


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Federico Ernesto Anliker Palomo




MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Federico Ernesto Anliker Palomo



Iberia left San Salvador in the late 80s, but it returned again in early 90s this time with the DC-9s that were sent from the Miami hub. This time around, Iberia flew the Miami - San Pedro Sula - San Salvador route which connected to Iberia's Miami - Madrid route. The wonderful Miami hub, was also reminicent of Iberia's long-standing desire to connect the Spanish speaking countries to Madrid, but with a profitable strategy.

So the main question here is that obviously, some routes were always profitable for Iberia in Latin America, no doubt about that, but some others were flown for political reasons. What is Iberia doing in San Salvador in the mid-80s when there's a huge civil war going on in the country, and a country that has very little ties to Spain, other than the fact that its national language is Spanish? I guess the same thing that it was doing in other Latin American countries in South America until its 5th freedom rights were denied in a very political way of saying 'go away'.

Regards, from Los Angeles.

 Smile LatinPlane
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
LatinPlane
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:51 pm

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 18):
I don't see politics in LatAm as a big factor, one example is CCS, loads and yields on the 3 daily CCS-MAD (IB/S3/UX) are better than ever with all the stuff going on in Venezuela over the last 10 years.

Actually, I think every country is different. CCS is doing very well now, but it wasn't performing all that well back in 2002/2003 when the economy went down after PDVSA was shut down. At this time, thanks to big influx of petro-dollars there is a lot of money to be spent abroad, especially by the middle-upper class which often holds Spanish passports. Add to that all the Venezuelans now living in Spain/Europe which will only get bigger as many slowly trickle out of the country. A steady stream of passenger for Iberia to Venezuela in the future.

Bolivia's case is different because Spanish investment has somewhat been hampered by the nationalization process of Evo Morales. I think this is the reasons why Iberia has stayed away from Bolivia. Obviously, there is a market there, but unlike other countries in the region, like Peru for example, where there a huge VFR market composed of Peruvians living in Spain, there is also a big demand by business travelers thanks to large investment by Spanish firms in the booming Peruvian economy.

 Smile LatinPlane
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
upperdeckfan
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:35 am

Quoting Latinplane (Reply 20):
Actually, I think every country is different

I fully agree,

The following might be a very simple analysis, but if IB can sustain such a small market like MVD, being that close to EZE where there are about 40xweekly to MAD, I conclude that a triangle operation MAD-LPB-VVI-MAD can be profitable specially if IB finally gets some A332's.

Quoting Latinplane (Reply 20):
Add to that all the Venezuelans now living in Spain/Europe which will only get bigger as many slowly trickle out of the country. A steady stream of passenger for Iberia to Venezuela in the future.

Same thing for Bolivians, as politics get worse more people will leave the country and even with the visa requierements Spain has become much more atractive than the US for ilegal inmigration, it's much more easier to get a Spain tourist visa than a US one and the hope to become legal in Spain are much more higher than in the US.

Quoting Latinplane (Reply 20):
Peru for example, where there a huge VFR market composed of Peruvians living in Spain

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand there are more bolivians than peruvians living in Spain.
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Pu752
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:52 am

Quoting Cyba (Reply 4):
AFAIK, LPB is at too high an altitude and the runway too short for fully loaded planes to be able to take off. Planes travelling long distances (e.g. AA to MIA) have to stop in VVI for refueling.



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 21):
The following might be a very simple analysis, but if IB can sustain such a small market like MVD, being that close to EZE where there are about 40xweekly to MAD, I conclude that a triangle operation MAD-LPB-VVI-MAD can be profitable specially if IB finally gets some A332's.

IB can sustain a 4x weekly to MVD due to several reasons (5x due to DEC07). 1st Uruguay has the 2nd growing economy in South America (before Chile), 2nd Uruguay is (GDP): $19.3 billion, 3rd Uruguay with only 3.5mill ppl is the 4th country regarding tourism inculing MVD and PDP.

With a city of 1.5mill who can sustain services such as MVD-MIA, MVD-PTY, MVD-LIM, MVD-MAD ?
 
vincewy
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:55 am

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 18):
What do you mean? IB would fit great into LH or BA networks since both are very weak in LatAm where IB is the strongest player. In case of AF/KL is diferent, but from recent events seems like EU won't allow or will put big conditions for a KL/AF/IB nerger.

I know IB has the strongest LatAm networks in Europe, but I still think whoever merges with IB will be too big for anyone else to compete with. LH and BA all had viable networks in LatAm in the past.

Regarding long haul expansions (forgot codes for some cities), some possibilities from MAD include:

-dedicated nonstop(s) to GUA and PTY (GUA should be daily nonstop, GUA-MAD from what I heard is very hard to book), those triangle routes should only be for those on higher altitude (ie LPB-VVI, Quito-Guayaquil)
-more flights to Mexico, perhaps third daily to MEX and other nonstops to MTY and GDL to relieve congestions at MEX.
-more flights to Central America, MAD-SAL (I know some mentioned earlier about the ties, but TACA has good connections to other cities out of SAL, same for CM at PTY)
-nonstop MAD-MAR
-more nonstop(s) to Colombia, MAD-CLO (already in service), MAD-MDE, MAD-BAQ/CTG
-MAD-LPB-VVI-MAD
-MAD-ASU-COR-MAD, maybe 3 times weekly
-2 more cities in Brazil, POA and CNF are better candidates since these are business destinations
 
WonderFan
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:38 pm

Quoting Vincewy (Reply 23):
dedicated nonstop(s) to GUA and PTY (GUA should be daily nonstop, GUA-MAD from what I heard is very hard to book)

I thought PTY was doing better than GUA. If they are both doing well, then the route should definitely be decoupled in favor of a dedicated flight to each of those two destinations.

Quoting Vincewy (Reply 23):
perhaps third daily to MEX and other nonstops to MTY and GDL to relieve congestions at MEX.



Quoting Vincewy (Reply 23):
more nonstop(s) to Colombia, MAD-CLO (already in service), MAD-MDE, MAD-BAQ/CTG

I don't think IB wants to fly to auxiliary cities in Mexico or Colombia at this juncture, especially because none of the cities mentioned is a big metropolis. I think it makes more sense to consolidate and reinforce its position in the capital cities where IB is currently flying before attacking those auxiliary cities.

Quoting Vincewy (Reply 23):
MAD-LPB-VVI-MAD

This seems to be the next logical pursuit of IB. I actually think it is overdue.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:43 am

Quoting PU752 (Reply 22):
With a city of 1.5mill who can sustain services such as MVD-MIA, MVD-PTY, MVD-LIM, MVD-MAD ?

Let me tell you...

The belgians with BRU, 1.2 million, and 5 times the services that MVD gets.
YYC and YEG in Canada, with loads of domestic and transborder service, and a few daily longhauls.
AMS, i must say, is a huge hub for a city only close to a million.

And the list can go on for a few more. I have a lot of respect for Uruguayans but it´s not like Uruguay is the ultimate thing.

Anyway, back in the topic, i don´t see ASU coming soon. I see cities such as COR, CLO, GDL, MTY or even CTG getting service before ASU. Paraguay has been staying behind the rest of the region in termins of economical and social progress.
 
LatinPlane
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RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:44 am

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 21):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand there are more bolivians than peruvians living in Spain.

I don't know if it changed between Jan 2006 and today, but I do recall reading (I cannot verify though) that the Bolivian community in Spain had almost doubled in size within the last year as many Bolivians rushed to get tickets to Spain before the visa requirements were placed into effect. However, per 2005 data, Peruvians still outnumbered Bolivians in thousands.

I was also watching a report on TVE a few months ago where they talked about the new amnesty that was conceived by the Spanish government that would allow the majority of the undocumented Latin Americans currently residing in Spain to legalize their status by following certain easy procedures. The second step to take after they have proven that they are working for their Spanish employeers is to enter Spain legally by buying a roundtrip ticket to their home country to fill out some paperwork in the Spanish embassy and return with a permanent working permit. The process would take about a week and guess who stands to benefit the most? Yup, Iberia will be transporting all these new legal citizens to and from Latin American/Spain. Profits * Profits * Profits!!!

 Smile LatinPlane
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
WonderFan
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:22 am

RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:55 pm

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 21):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand there are more bolivians than peruvians living in Spain.



Quoting Latinplane (Reply 26):
I don't know if it changed between Jan 2006 and today, but I do recall reading (I cannot verify though) that the Bolivian community in Spain had almost doubled in size within the last year as many Bolivians rushed to get tickets to Spain before the visa requirements were placed into effect. However, per 2005 data, Peruvians still outnumbered Bolivians in thousands.

According to 2006 statistics by INE (Instituto Nacional de Estatistica): Bolivians far outnumber Peruvians (199,176 Bolivians vs. 135,703 Peruvians.) http://www.ine.es/inebase/cgi/um?M=%...e245%2Fp04%2Fprovi&O=pcaxis&N=&L=0
 
GatoVolador
Posts: 139
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:17 am

RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:59 pm

Quoting WonderFan (Reply 24):
I don't think IB wants to fly to auxiliary cities in Mexico or Colombia at this juncture, especially because none of the cities mentioned is a big metropolis. I think it makes more sense to consolidate and reinforce its position in the capital cities where IB is currently flying before attacking those auxiliary cities.

I disagree. Iberia's director plan targets a second wave of new Latam destinations. Iberia wants to be the leader in the Europe - Latam market, and in order to do that, they want to cover smaller cities. The expansion focuses on non capital cities.
 
LatinPlane
Posts: 2480
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 1999 11:05 am

RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:55 pm

Quoting GatoVolador (Reply 28):
The expansion focuses on non capital cities.

Not to mention that for example some of these routes are already being flown. For example, Avianca flies twice weekly Cali - Madrid service and I've heard that this flight is regularly booked solid, and AeroMexico also flies the Monterrey - Madrid service twice weekly as well.

 Smile LatinPlane
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
WonderFan
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:22 am

RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:59 pm

Quoting GatoVolador (Reply 28):
I disagree. Iberia's director plan targets a second wave of new Latam destinations. Iberia wants to be the leader in the Europe - Latam market, and in order to do that, they want to cover smaller cities. The expansion focuses on non capital cities.



Quoting Latinplane (Reply 29):
Not to mention that for example some of these routes are already being flown. For example, Avianca flies twice weekly Cali - Madrid service and I've heard that this flight is regularly booked solid, and AeroMexico also flies the Monterrey - Madrid service twice weekly as well.

Yes but I don't think IB wants those destinations where it can only fly twice a week. I would think they would want to be stronger in the main cities where they already fly, like they are in say EZE, or fly to Latam countries where they do not have a presence as of yet (e.g. Bolivia). Flying to those smaller cities would only spread them too thin and would only be warranted if traffic (both yield and load) was enough to justify a significant number of weekly flights.
 
adicool
Posts: 169
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:38 am

RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:01 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 25):
The belgians with BRU, 1.2 million, and 5 times the services that MVD gets.
YYC and YEG in Canada, with loads of domestic and transborder service, and a few daily longhauls.
AMS, i must say, is a huge hub for a city only close to a million.

Yet everything needs to be put into the right perspectives...
BRU has a big network bc it is the only major international gate away in Belgium, a country with an estimated population of 10 million. Besides this, Belgium still has strong ties with its former colonies (i.d. FIH). And, above all, there are so many dedicated non-stop services in BRU its the "capital of Europe" - I think is a very important factor...With the EU institutions come also a lot of foreigners...

Sort of the same for AMS...the only intercontinental gate away in the Netherlands and very easy to reach by train from any place in the country. In fact, I think the only domestic service KL offers is a daily connection between Maastricht and AMS...don't know about frequency or a/c...

Anyways, my point is: MVD has a really little yet good network to most important business destinations and hubs in South America. It ain't no EZE or GRU. But just look at Belo Horizonte, Cordoba, Porto Alegre...cities with twice as much inhabitants...Uruguay is also a relatively small country (the smallest one in South America) yet has strong and growing economy...it wasn't called "Switzerland of South America" for no reason^^
 
GatoVolador
Posts: 139
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:17 am

RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:55 pm

Quoting WonderFan (Reply 30):
Yes but I don't think IB wants those destinations where it can only fly twice a week. I would think they would want to be stronger in the main cities where they already fly, like they are in say EZE, or fly to Latam countries where they do not have a presence as of yet (e.g. Bolivia). Flying to those smaller cities would only spread them too thin and would only be warranted if traffic (both yield and load) was enough to justify a significant number of weekly flights.

Trust me: Iberia's next step is a second landing in Latam. In 1994-1998 they spread out over important capitals (before even EZE was weakly covered with only 15 long-haul aircrafts), and now they will cover secondary cities (which doesn't mean that routes as EZE, for instance, will not receive more frequencies). Iberia forecasts to double their long-haul fleet, and LATAM is the main area in which the aircrafts will be used. And for sure, they will fly all these destinations much more than twice per week. (That's why smaller aircrafts are going to be purchased: A330)

The Euro-LATAM market is booming. The growth rate is incredible, the loads are around 90%, and the business plus is a success. There are many new airports to be served in the near future. Just in Brazil, TAP has much more stations than IB, and IB knows that it also could perform well in some of them. Just to name one, Fortaleza is being studied.

On top of that, notice that LATAM is a key to maintain the domestic and European network. And in addition, they want to increase their presence in Africa and re-enter Asia and in order to do that, they need to introduce themselves as the airline that flies "everywhere" in Latam. Presence in the region is the main competitive advantage of Iberia, and remaining as they are today is like sending the Asian pax directly through Air China, Emirates, etc. etc.

Iberia cannot compete in quality, but a large network that any other carrier could serve is their strenght.
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3664
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:33 am

Quoting Adicool (Reply 31):
BRU has a big network bc it is the only major international gate away in Belgium, a country with an estimated population of 10 million.

Yes, of course, but he also exposed MVD with facts like those. It all has to be taken into consideration. MVD is also the only international gateway to Uruguay.

Quoting Adicool (Reply 31):
Anyways, my point is: MVD has a really little yet good network to most important business destinations and hubs in South America.

Totally agree. But that doesn´t mean MVD is the only city in the world which can be small and sustain nice levels of service.
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting Adicool (Reply 31):
Uruguay is also a relatively small country (the smallest one in South America)

Suriname is the smallest Southamerican country, 10,000 sq Km smaller than Uruguay. French Guiana and Falklands/Malvianas are even smaller but those are dependencies.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2465
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 33):
MVD is also the only international gateway to Uruguay.

PDP Punta del Este is offering flights to AEP Buenos Aires and GRU.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3664
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:19 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 35):
PDP Punta del Este is offering flights to AEP Buenos Aires and GRU.

There are charter flights form Liège and Antwerp in Belgiumm, those, lie the flights to PDP, are based on O/D and tourists, that doesn´t make the airport a gateway.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2465
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:07 am

Quoting Latinplane (Reply 29):
Avianca flies twice weekly Cali - Madrid service and I've heard that this flight is regularly booked solid

AV CLO-MAD is code-shared with IB.


.

Quoting Adicool (Reply 31):
MVD has a really little yet good network to most important business destinations and hubs in South America. It ain't no EZE or GRU

I agree. MVD is connected to SCL, GRU, POA, Buenos Aires and LIM (October 21th), among others.
Apologies if I misunderstood your point, but AA operates MIA-EZE-MVD and PZ TAM Mercosur makes MVD-EZE-ASU.
However, I am not sure about traffic rights on MVD-EZE in these flights, due to operations headed to Buenos Aires are commonly worked out on MVD-AEP instead.
PU flies MVD-GRU and G3 MVD-POA-GRU.


.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 36):
There are charter flights form Liège and Antwerp in Belgiumm, those, lie the flights to PDP, are based on O/D and tourists, that doesn´t make the airport a gateway.

PU is sustaining regular schedules year-round on PDP-AEP and PDP-GRU.
These operations may not derive from O&D leisure traffic exclusively and passengers could diversify to other destinations mainly in Brazil and Argentina through either GRU or AEP respectively.
AR and JJ among other air carriers deployed seasonal services there as well.
I hold my point: MVD is the most important international gate-away in Uruguay, but it is not the only one...
Regards.  Smile
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
Pu752
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:29 am

RE: Madrid- Asuncion, IB Possibility?

Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 36):
There are charter flights form Liège and Antwerp in Belgiumm, those, lie the flights to PDP, are based on O/D and tourists, that doesn´t make the airport a gateway

You're comparing a mayor European City/Country (regarding BRU couple of posts above from you) to a South American City/Country, not much sense though we're a 3rd world country, I was refering to Latin American cities when I said the 1.5mill thing.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 37):
PU is sustaining regular schedules year-round on PDP-AEP and PDP-GRU.

Yes, PU operates 5x weekly PDP-AEP year-round although its not necessary a gateway its an Int'l airport so Colonia Int'l with 2x weekly MVD-CYR-AEP operated via Aerovip.


Rgds.

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