L-188
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Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:03 pm

This morning's Anchorage Daily News had an interesting arcticle about how Alaska Airlines is using a 1977 DOT ruling to maintain their monopoly.

Here is the story, the oil companies run a shuttle service using 737's to the slope to move it's workers to and from work. This summer a Shared Services aircraft had a mechanical and went down for extendended maintaince, another aircraft was already in an extended check. So they where forced to look for additional capacity to move their crews. They wanted to go to a company called Polar Express, which was working with a California based company called Sky King to move the workers.

Well Alaska Air fought the start-up of Polar Express to provide the flight services every step of the year, using the 1977 rule from allowing a competitor to be hired to move these oil slope workers. Or even put price pressure on to lower the cost of the charters (The one time that I took the flight a couple of guys in the seat in from where complaining that AS was charging about 48K a flight).

Alaska Airlines currently is the only carrier with flights to Deadhorse that has comparable 737 aircraft, but yet uses it's 30 and 19 seat competitors to claim that there is already adequate competition on the route.

http://www.adn.com/money/industries/...lines/story/9376032p-9289331c.html
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AA737-823
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:02 am

Are we surprised by this?

Quoting L-188 (Thread starter):
This summer a Shared Services aircraft had a mechanical and went down for extendended maintaince

Haha... that's the understatement of the year. After an in-flight compressor problem of some sort (details are fuzzy there), both engines were deemed out of tolerance by borescope inspection... the plane was grounded.
 
roadrunner165
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:41 am

I read the article during lunch today. Too bad Polar Express got shot down, it would have been very interesting to see whether or not they could make a profit conducting these charter flights. It sounded like they had a good business plan.

Everyone assumes Alaska makes little money flying to Alaska cities, but I believe people would be very surprised (and upset) if they knew just how much money Alaska Airlines made flying to small Alaska locations like Bethel, Nome, and the Deadhorse. Alaska Airlines make so a lot of money and gives little in return to the communities they serve here in Alaska. It looks like Alaska Airlines will continue using and abusing us Alaskans for ever.


Adam
 
alaska737
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:48 am

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 2):
Everyone assumes Alaska makes little money flying to Alaska cities, but I believe people would be very surprised (and upset) if they knew just how much money Alaska Airlines made flying to small Alaska locations like Bethel, Nome, and the Deadhorse. Alaska Airlines make so a lot of money and gives little in return to the communities they serve here in Alaska. It looks like Alaska Airlines will continue using and abusing us Alaskans for ever.

ok but without AS do you honestly think that Bethel, King Salmon, Wrangell, ect...would get a 737? the answer is no, they would get a few 1900's or a Dash-8.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:08 am

Quoting L-188 (Thread starter):
The one time that I took the flight a couple of guys in the seat in from where complaining that AS was charging about 48K a flight

That's less than $400/person...for flights of that length up in that part of the world that doesn't seem unreasonable.

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 2):
Alaska Airlines make so a lot of money and gives little in return to the communities they serve here in Alaska.

You mean, besides allowing you to get to those communities in the first place on something other than a puddle jumper?

Tom.
 
L-188
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:08 am

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 3):
ok but without AS do you honestly think that Bethel, King Salmon, Wrangell, ect...would get a 737? the answer is no, they would get a few 1900's or a Dash-8

And those dash-8's and 1900's are much more appropriately sized for those routes. I don't understand why villages feel that one jet a day is better service then 4 or 5 Dash-8's, Saabs, or 1900's running the route. The flight times aren't that much longer and you would have many more flight options.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 4):
That's less than $400/person...for flights of that length up in that part of the world that doesn't seem unreasonable.

Agreed, I don't think that is unreasonable, but multiply that by at least 3 or 4 round trips per day it adds up. It also violates a lot of auditing requirements for the oil companies, because of the amount of money involved and the lack of competitve bidding for the contract.
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rfields5421
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:47 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
I don't understand why villages feel that one jet a day is better service then 4 or 5 Dash-8's, Saabs, or 1900's running the route. The flight times aren't that much longer and you would have many more flight options.

This makes no sense but is common around the world.

People feel jets are "safer" than props. Plus you have to admit the general feeling of space and not being trapped in something small is much better in a 737 than a B1900, Dash 8 or Saab 340.

That is also an important perception factor.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:51 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):

And those dash-8's and 1900's are much more appropriately sized for those routes. I don't understand why villages feel that one jet a day is better service then 4 or 5 Dash-8's, Saabs, or 1900's running the route.

Considering many of these outposts rely on the belly (or the cargo area in the combis) of these 737's to bring them supplies/freight... that one 737 is FAR more important than a whole armada of Beechnuts or Dashers.
 
L-188
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 7):
Considering many of these outposts rely on the belly (or the cargo area in the combis) of these 737's to bring them supplies/freight... that one 737 is FAR more important than a whole armada of Beechnuts or Dashers

There is nothing I said that prevents a smaller full freighter being run on those routes.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
roadrunner165
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 4):
You mean, besides allowing you to get to those communities in the first place on something other than a puddle jumper?

Hi Tdscanuck,

This is a common assumption that I am not conveniences is 100% accurate. I am confident that if Alaska did not fly 737s someone else would. In fact someone else did, Markair with the 737-200s. Also, most people forget about the large amount of cargo that is flown in the state, this fact alone makes the 737 a better fit compared to small prop liners on routes to Nome and Kotzebue for instance. Nome is not on the road network so everything is flown in 12 months per year. AS has many of the mail contracts in Alaska too. My employer puts millions of dollars worth of cargo on Alaska per year for our Nome store and that is just for highly perishable items. God only knows how many millions of pounds of bypass mail fly on the 737s each year. So really, the 737s (or similar aircraft) would be flying in the state either way. Your statement makes it sound like the 737s are flying around Alaska empty, and that is just not true.

I was thinking more along the lines of poor customer service because AS knows they have a monopoly on the market. Look at the on time performance for bush communities, its horrendous. There are a lot of cargo customers upset with AS right now due to continuing problems with the 737-400c, which suck. Their credibility as a cargo provider in is going down the tubes quick. Passenger customer service is a bit lacking, but not nearly as bad as the cargo side of their business, which is what I deal with on a daily basis



Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
Agreed, I don't think that is unreasonable, but multiply that by at least 3 or 4 round trips per day it adds up. It also violates a lot of auditing requirements for the oil companies, because of the amount of money involved and the lack of competitve bidding for the contract.

Thats a good point L-188. Also the $48k number is probably the minimum cost for just the passengers alone, any extra room would be filled with cargo, thus providing AS additional revenues. The oil companies are AS's largest customer in Alaska.

OK OK OK … Ill stop yacking now and end my soap box.

Adam
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 9):
Your statement makes it sound like the 737s are flying around Alaska empty, and that is just not true.

That's not what I meant to suggest. You said:

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 2):
Alaska Airlines make so a lot of money and gives little in return to the communities they serve here in Alaska.

My point was that merely providing air service *is* giving a lot to the communities they serve.

Tom.
 
AgnusBymaster
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:17 am

"There are a lot of cargo customers upset with AS right now due to continuing problems with the 737-400c, which suck."

The on-time performance has gone up since switching over to the 737-400 Combis from the 737-200 combis. It's definitely better than a year ago, and the new Combis are part of a $100 million effort AS is making to revamp its cargo service.
 
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:14 am

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 2):
I believe people would be very surprised (and upset) if they knew just how much money Alaska Airlines made flying to small Alaska locations like Bethel, Nome, and the Deadhorse.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - if Alaska Airlines were taking money home in wheelbarrows serving BET, OME and SCC don't you think other carriers would be clamoring to provide service on those routes and get a piece of the action?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
L-188
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 9):
Also the $48k number is probably the minimum cost for just the passengers alone, any extra room would be filled with cargo, thus providing AS additional revenues

No, when you charter the aircraft you get the whole airplane. It I charter an airplane with say 30,000 lbs payload, you expect to get the whole 30,000 lbs. I would be very ticked off if any of those pounds where being sold to another customer.

There is enough priority freight for the oil companies to take up any available cargo space.
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Tiger119
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:32 am

Speaking of AS, where are their crew bases? I did not think starting a new thread was neccessary for this question and I did do a search. Thanks

David
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commavia
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:48 am

Quoting Tiger119 (Reply 14):
Speaking of AS, where are their crew bases? I did not think starting a new thread was neccessary for this question and I did do a search.

Alaska (mainline) has crew bases in Anchorage, Seattle, and Los Angeles, and Horizon has crew bases in Seattle and Portland.
 
AS907
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:14 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 12):
I've said it before and I'll say it again - if Alaska Airlines were taking money home in wheelbarrows serving BET, OME and SCC don't you think other carriers would be clamoring to provide service on those routes and get a piece of the action?

Well, Era just starting serving BET, although I haven't heard anything on the loads. Anyone care to fill me in? And they also just started up serving FAI (again.. loads?). The competition between AS and Frontier (not sure what the in-state airline code is) along with Era should be interesting.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
I don't understand why villages feel that one jet a day is better service then 4 or 5 Dash-8's, Saabs, or 1900's running the route.

As far as the aircraft types... there are some situations a jet can fly into while a prop can't... and I think it works the other way around, but not sure on the specifics. When at Era, Kodiak was our biggest problem. I would get many costumers complaining the Alaska jet made it in while our Dash's were on weather holds. But I've also seen Dash's make it in while the jet cancelled. Maybe many of the village people believe that the jet is more reliable?!
 
as739x
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:53 pm

Quoting Tiger119 (Reply 14):

Pilot: SEA,LAX,ANC
Flt A: SEA,LAX,ANC, PDX (part of the SEA base)

ASSFO
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EXAAUADL
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:49 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
And those dash-8's and 1900's are much more appropriately sized for those routes. I don't understand why villages feel that one jet a day is better service then 4 or 5 Dash-8's, Saabs, or 1900's running the route. The flight times aren't that much longer and you would have many more flight options.

cargo???????
 
sxf24
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:54 pm

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 2):
Everyone assumes Alaska makes little money flying to Alaska cities, but I believe people would be very surprised (and upset) if they knew just how much money Alaska Airlines made flying to small Alaska locations like Bethel, Nome, and the Deadhorse. Alaska Airlines make so a lot of money and gives little in return to the communities they serve here in Alaska. It looks like Alaska Airlines will continue using and abusing us Alaskans for ever.

These comments have absolutely no support or base in reality.
 
L-188
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:35 pm

Quoting As907 (Reply 16):
As far as the aircraft types... there are some situations a jet can fly into while a prop can't... and I think it works the other way around, but not sure on the specifics

Situations like that usually where an ops-spec issue not an aircraft type issue
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HikesWithEyes
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:24 pm

Quoting L-188 (Thread starter):
(The one time that I took the flight a couple of guys in the seat in from where complaining that AS was charging about 48K a flight).

Sorry you have such an axe to grind about AS.
If the service sucks, and you think AS has an unfair monopoly, then just don't fly AS.
I don't care if your response is that you don't have a choice, because you do.
You are not being forced to fly.
Also, just because someone seated in front of you says that AS is charging 48K a flight, does that make
it true? What does that say about your powers of reasoning that you can accept that as the truth?
First, benzene in my Perrier, and now this!
 
roadrunner165
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:06 pm

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 10):
My point was that merely providing air service *is* giving a lot to the communities they serve.

So AS has a monopoly on Inter-Alaska flights and your saying I should just sit back and be happy they serve us, period. Like they are doing us some big favor? Polar Express was attempting to offer additional service in a high demand market and they were refused entry based on a law that was suppose to protect smaller companies from outside competition on low yield routes. It was not intended to give Alaska Airlines unlimited controls over the Alaskan sky. (that’s if I understood the law correctly)

Your point may fly for some of the cities Alaska serves that truly do not need jet service. But many of the towns in Alaska can stand on their own two feet and do not rely on AS to act as a crutch to keep everything going.

For example Nome gets:
6+ weekly flights from Northern Air Cargo
4+ flights from Everetts Air Cargo
4+ flights from Lynden Air Cargo
21 regular flights with Alaska Airlines plus a few freighter flights.

With all these flights there is still a 1-2 week delay with bypass mail (as of now) and it is not uncommon for AS to have 70-100,000 lbs of actual cargo (not bypass mail) sitting in Anchorage warehouse destine for Nome. According to the cargo sales manager for Alaska region AS had some very high load factors for Inter-Alaska flights this summer. (I can not verify that though) So yeah, I’m not really sure what my point is, I guess I’m just trying to paint a picture showing that a community like Nome (pop. 3500) gives Alaska a lot of revenues and should get treated better then we currently are.

Adam
 
roadrunner165
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:09 pm

Quoting AgnusBymaster (Reply 11):
The on-time performance has gone up since switching over to the 737-400 Combis from the 737-200 combis. It's definitely better than a year ago, and the new Combis are part of a $100 million effort AS is making to revamp its cargo service.

Gulp... where did you get that information? Sounds like a press release from Alaska Airlines laced with propaganda  stirthepot   Wink

You may be right about on time performance ( I honestly don’t know), BUT the 737-400C has a big weight and balance issues. Things get worse if they are used as a freighter with no passengers in the rear. The new igloos are made out of a material that traps in the heat during the summer so perishable products fry. Believe me I know! They only have two 737-400c spread out over all of Alaska, one of which was down for maintenance the entire second half of September. If things are definitely better then a year ago why am I waiting longer for freight then last year at this time?? The capacity at Alaska Airlines for cargo has actually gone down with the introduction of the 737-400c in my opinion. They have been putting their freight on Northern Air Cargo for flights to Nome because they are so far behind. AS got rid of the -200s too soon, period. I remember when they rolled out the new cargo software for air waybills this spring, it was taking AS employees 45 minutes to process a single shipment at the Nome station. I feel so bad every time I watch the ramp agents unloading strapped soda form the rear belly of the plane.

I guess my rants are directed more towards the cargo side of the airlines, then the passenger side. I actually enjoy flying Alaska Airlines, once I’m on the airplane. It’s when I'm on the ground that I cant stand their service.


Adam
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:12 pm

Quoting L-188 (Thread starter):
Alaska Airlines is using a 1977 DOT ruling to maintain their monopoly.

A couple thoughts to ponder here. This is an old, old, OLD ruling that probably wasn't well thought out maybe? This 30 year old ruling. Maybe this needs to be revised and revisited. Times have changed, air travel IS booming. AS needs to take THAT into consideration.

OTOH, AS is protecting itself by using that 1977 DOT ruling, which is their right. They may fear that the ruling might get overturned and then they envision doom and gloom of their airline. But then again, times have changed 30 years later. Its time to adapt and get creative. I see a change is in order....and is also for the best perhaps.

Note to AS: You can't always rely on a 30 year old ruling. You cannot always be immune to these kinds of things. Again, times have changed.
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roadrunner165
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:20 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 12):
I've said it before and I'll say it again - if Alaska Airlines were taking money home in wheelbarrows serving BET, OME and SCC don't you think other carriers would be clamoring to provide service on those routes and get a piece of the action?

I don’t think they are making wheelbarrow loads of money on these routes, but they are making more then a fair amount of money. AS is not going to the poor house by providing inter-Alaska flights. Also, we don’t know whether any other carrier’s would pick up these routes because they (like polar express) are refused entry into the Alaska market. The market should be driven by demand, not a controlled monopoly.


Adam
 
Lono
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:27 pm

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 2):
Everyone assumes Alaska makes little money flying to Alaska cities

MMMM no ... not if you know anything about Alaska and Alaska Airlines...

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
And those dash-8's and 1900's are much more appropriately sized for those routes. I don't understand why villages feel that one jet a day is better service then 4 or 5 Dash-8's, Saabs, or 1900's running the route. The flight times aren't that much longer and you would have many more flight options.

I agree.... especially since the solid buklhead combi's are having W/B issues

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 7):
that one 737 is FAR more important than a whole armada of Beechnuts or Dashers.

No... not when you see 1 or 2 people get off and on...

Quoting AgnusBymaster (Reply 11):
"There are a lot of cargo customers upset with AS right now due to continuing problems with the 737-400c, which suck."

Yes this is an issue with the new 400's..... bummer AS lost a bunch of options of flying cargo with this new bird...

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 18):
cargo???????

Yes NAC.... Northern Air Cargo flies to these places also

Quoting HikesWithEyes (Reply 21):
then just don't fly AS.

Walk to OME/OTZ/SCC....????? Oh I know.... dog sled!!!!!

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 23):
BUT the 737-400C has a big weight and balance issues. Things get worse if they are used as a freighter with no passengers in the rear

Again this is an issue that will be getting worse.... and I wonder why AS did not figure this out before they went with the 400's....
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L-188
Topic Author
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:28 pm

Quoting HikesWithEyes (Reply 21):
you think AS has an unfair monopoly, then just don't fly AS.

And how can I exactly do that when they are the only air carrrier flying to an off-roadway destination.

Quoting HikesWithEyes (Reply 21):
What does that say about your powers of reasoning that you can accept that as the truth?

Actually that number didn't sound that far off to my ears and very believable, based on my work history with 5 years of quoting Part 135 charter flights, and 10 years of 135/121 work experience in Alaska. That number would be lower if there was a competitve bidding process for those charters, which didn't happen in this case due to the DOT rule.

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 22):
Polar Express was attempting to offer additional service in a high demand market and they were refused entry based on a law that was suppose to protect smaller companies from outside competition on low yield routes. It was not intended to give Alaska Airlines unlimited controls over the Alaskan sky. (that’s if I understood the law correctly)

Exactly my point, if we are preventing new enterants to the market then we have an issue.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 24):
OTOH, AS is protecting itself by using that 1977 DOT ruling, which is their right. They may fear that the ruling might get overturned and then they envision doom and gloom of their airline. But then again, times have changed 30 years later. Its time to adapt and get creative.

Part of me agrees, but I also feel that the law is not being used for what it was intended to do in 1977.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:40 pm

Quoting Lono (Reply 26):
Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 23):
BUT the 737-400C has a big weight and balance issues. Things get worse if they are used as a freighter with no passengers in the rear

Again this is an issue that will be getting worse.... and I wonder why AS did not figure this out before they went with the 400's....

I swear I read on a thread a few months back that the AS pilots are complaining that the 490C's are nose heavy. Does anyone remember that claim?

Quoting L-188 (Reply 27):
Part of me agrees, but I also feel that the law is not being used for what it was intended to do in 1977.

Right, but I was also saying that times have changed. The playing field is much more different now than it was 30 years ago.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
ASFlyer
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 25):
because they (like polar express) are refused entry into the Alaska market.

So, are you saying that AA, CO, NW, DL, UA and US are all legally unable to begin intra-Alaska flying? I haven't seen any one of them even attempt it or attempt to remove any obstacles in their way. I haven't seen WN, FL, B6 or any of the low cost airlines try to start any flying up north either. In fact, when Southwest bought Morris Air they stopped their Alaska flying. Probably, these airlines are not interested in investing in the infrastructure to allow this flying (building freight and passenger facilities, maintaining a separate, dedicated fleet and paying higher pay rates to their Alaska employees being some key costs). Not to mention the very unpredictable weather that wreaks havoc with your on time and completion records and adds significant expense. Those extra sections to move the backed up passengers aren't free and Alaska doesn't charge extra for that when they need to add extra flights. They also don't charge extra for trying to fly you out to Kodiak and having to turn around because the weather just isn't cooperating, they just put you on the next flight. I imagine that Alaska is making some money flying within the state, but I don't imagine that it's anywhere as much as you think it is. I think that Alaska has commited to the residents of Alaska by maintaining passenger service to some of these places. They could simply run a freight operation within the state and probably do quite well in doing so, but have also committed to operating a passenger operation that presents many challenges that other large carriers are not interested in. If Alaska pulled out of much of their local flying in Alaska I can't see another major airline moving in to take their place. There may be some extra freight lift but the passengers in places like Nome, King Salmon, Adak and Dillingham would be left with small prop plane service. As for Polar Express, their business plan was pretty lame.
 
alaska737
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:01 am

Quoting Lono (Reply 26):
Walk to OME/OTZ/SCC....????? Oh I know.... dog sled!!!!!

Frontier Flying Service flys to all three of those places

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 28):
I swear I read on a thread a few months back that the AS pilots are complaining that the 490C's are nose heavy. Does anyone remember that claim?

Yes that is true, I recall reading it and hearing a number of pilots tell me the same thing...however the -400F seems to do just fine, in hindsight they should have gone with the -700 Combi, that probably would have worked better
 
roadrunner165
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 28):
I swear I read on a thread a few months back that the AS pilots are complaining that the 490C's are nose heavy. Does anyone remember that claim?

On flights to Nome and Kotzebue they occasionally put empty igloos up front just to meet weigh and balance requirements. They also belly load soda and other heavy previously palletized items in the rear compartment to help offset the problem too. Could you imagine loading/unloading strapped (6/12packs) in the belly of a 737? Meanwhile my perishable freight (averaging around 20,000 lbs per week) sits in Anchorage. I think the weigh issues is much bigger then AS originally anticipated.

Adam
 
L-188
Topic Author
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 31):
Could you imagine loading/unloading strapped (6/12packs) in the belly of a 737

Been there, done that and have the hat.

Actually the rear belly of the 200C's wheren't that bad because they where short, Doing the same thing on a Reeve Electra was worse because the floor isn't as flat and it goes further in.

Still not as bad as that cave in the rear belly.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 23):
Quoting AgnusBymaster (Reply 11):
The on-time performance has gone up since switching over to the 737-400 Combis from the 737-200 combis. It's definitely better than a year ago, and the new Combis are part of a $100 million effort AS is making to revamp its cargo service.

Gulp... where did you get that information? Sounds like a press release from Alaska Airlines laced with propaganda

You may be right about on time performance ( I honestly don’t know),

 redflag 

So which is it? A moment ago you were swearing there were all sorts of huge problems with the -400C fleet, and now you're saying you honestly don't know.

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 25):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 12):
I've said it before and I'll say it again - if Alaska Airlines were taking money home in wheelbarrows serving BET, OME and SCC don't you think other carriers would be clamoring to provide service on those routes and get a piece of the action?

I don’t think they are making wheelbarrow loads of money on these routes, but they are making more then a fair amount of money.

Really? Tell me, what constitutes "a fair amount of money" - and what's MORE than a fair amount?

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 25):
AS is not going to the poor house by providing inter-Alaska flights.

And yet all these new -800s aren't going to intra-Alaska service. Could it be that (gasp!) there are ACTUALLY other markets that are more profitable for AS?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 30):
-700 Combi

I supported that idea when the idea was first floating around here on A.net. I was hoping AS would have taken up the 790C idea.

As far as the 490C nose heavy problem, that's what I thought I heard.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
roadrunner165
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:48 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 33):
So which is it? A moment ago you were swearing there were all sorts of huge problems with the -400C fleet, and now you're saying you honestly don't know.

Ok, are we talking about on time performance, or the -400c fleet? You have me confused.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 33):
Really? Tell me, what constitutes "a fair amount of money" - and what's MORE than a fair amount?

A free market (those without monopolies) would determine what is fair, and what isn't.

Adam
 
HikesWithEyes
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
supported that idea when the idea was first floating around here on A.net. I was hoping AS would have taken up the 790C idea.

As far as the 490C nose heavy problem, that's what I thought I heard

The 700 combi was deemed to be too expensive. The 400 combi has some issues, including a forward
center of gravity, but as time goes on, the bugs are being worked out.
The 400 conversion in theory is cheaper than a 700 because the 400s have been paid for.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 27):
And how can I exactly do that when they are the only air carrrier flying to an off-roadway destination

Change your career? Don't laugh, you would get less stressed out, and not have to resort to a.net to vent.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 27):
Actually that number didn't sound that far off to my ears and very believable, based on my work history with 5 years of quoting Part 135 charter flights, and 10 years of 135/121 work experience in Alaska. That number would be lower if there was a competitve bidding process for those charters, which didn't happen in this case due to the DOT rule.

You're still off on the price.
First, benzene in my Perrier, and now this!
 
roadrunner165
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:23 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 29):
As for Polar Express, their business plan was pretty lame.

That is not the point! The true beauty of the United States is that you can have the lamest, shittiest, dumbest business plan in the entire country, but you as an individual are still allowed (entitled even) to go ahead with that plan and pave your own path in life. We have a free economy that encourages people to act on ideas (taking a risk) and create great things (weep the financial reward) from little or nothing. This issue is much deeper then Alaska Airlines and Polar Express.

Quoting HikesWithEyes (Reply 36):


Change your career? Don't laugh, you would get less stressed out, and not have to resort to a.net to vent

ummm wait... did I miss something?  confused  Who are you to give that sort of nonsense cynical advice? Sounds like you just want to attack L-188s character and not the problem at hand....  twocents 

Adam
 
Lono
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:39 am

[

Frontier Flying Service flys to all three of those places[/quote]

Really!!!!!! Wow I guess I don't need to harness by dogs up........Ummmm yes I know... I live in Alaska... sarcasm on my part....

Quoting L-188 (Reply 32):
Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 31):
Could you imagine loading/unloading strapped (6/12packs) in the belly of a 737

Been there, done that and have the hat.

Me too.... you can fit a mess of beer in the belly of a 737..... back in my Wien days.... 2 cases strapped together... 22 lbs... "Speedpack".... belly was full of them and cases of whiskey... every available space on every BET flight was full of beer...
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:36 am

Quoting HikesWithEyes (Reply 36):
The 700 combi was deemed to be too expensive.

Well, true. It's a new aircraft and all......

Quoting HikesWithEyes (Reply 36):
The 400 conversion in theory is cheaper than a 700 because the 400s have been paid for.

Explains it quite well. Beat me to it!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
L-188
Topic Author
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
As far as the 490C nose heavy problem, that's what I thought I heard.

Wouldn't surprise me though, I know that the -200 had balance issues also, I used to load empty 40 gallon plastic barrels ahead of the igloos in Anchorage for some flights so they could ballest down the tail on the return trip.

Quoting HikesWithEyes (Reply 36):
Change your career? Don't laugh, you would get less stressed out, and not have to resort to a.net to vent

I did change careers, two years ago, and to tell you the truth...I am less stressed out.

Quoting HikesWithEyes (Reply 36):
You're still off on the price.

Fine, but the point still stands, AS wasn't cutting shared services any brteaks since they had no competitive bid for that flight due to the lack of competition. The thesis is, If there had been a competitive bid, the price would have been significantly lower.
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:36 am

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 35):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 33):
Really? Tell me, what constitutes "a fair amount of money" - and what's MORE than a fair amount?

A free market (those without monopolies) would determine what is fair, and what isn't.

The article speaks of a rule pertaining to new CHARTER services only, and also points out that Alaska, PenAir and Frontier Flying Service already serve SCC as it is.

Care to explain to me how that constitutes a monopoly?

I know it's sort of a hobby for some to complain about Alaska Airlines, but you should really try having the facts on your side before doing so.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
L-188
Topic Author
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 41):
Alaska, PenAir and Frontier Flying Service already serve SCC as it is.

Well lets see here,

PenAir's largest aircraft is a 30 seat Saab 340 (They took out four for more baggage room)
Frontier flying service biggest airplane is a Beech 1900, it's next largest is a Piper Navajo.

Not exactly comparable in capacity to Shared Services 737 that they where looking to charter coverage for.

This leave Alaska's 737's as the only competitor. When the rule was emplaced, you could have gotted coverage from Wien, Reeve and was Pacific Northern still around then?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
alaska737
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:30 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 42):
PenAir's largest aircraft is a 30 seat Saab 340 (They took out four for more baggage room)
Frontier flying service biggest airplane is a Beech 1900, it's next largest is a Piper Navajo.

a few posts ago you were saying how the smaller planes better suit the communites as opposed to a 737, im a little confused here...

And how come we never hear any complaining about Pen Air or Era or Frontier, they are the only airlines that fly to certian locations, and we all know that they can pretty much charge as much as they want....i think some Alaskans just want to complain about AS for no reason. The State would be A LOT worse off if AS wasnt there.
 
HikesWithEyes
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:56 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 40):
Fine, but the point still stands, AS wasn't cutting shared services any brteaks since they had no competitive bid for that flight due to the lack of competition. The thesis is, If there had been a competitive bid, the price would have been significantly lower.

If you were running the show, wouldn't you charge $$$ for the charter? It's a rough world out there in the
airline industry with the fuel and labor prices.

Don't forget that AS had to give up an operational spare to make this work.
By providing this service at late notice, it means that the airline doesn't have a spare aircraft in ANC for OME flights.
further giving Roadrunner another reason to slam AS.
First, benzene in my Perrier, and now this!
 
RyDawg82
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:09 am

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 43):
And how come we never hear any complaining about Pen Air or Era or Frontier, they are the only airlines that fly to certian locations, and we all know that they can pretty much charge as much as they want....i think some Alaskans just want to complain about AS for no reason. The State would be A LOT worse off if AS wasnt there.

Spot on my friend! I would love to see the look on Alaskans' faces if tomorrow morning they woke up to see the front page of the Anchorage Daily News "Alaska Airlines pulls out of all Alaskan markets -- Renamed Pacific Northwest AIrlines." What would they be crying for then? Hey, I am born and raised Alaskan, I have seen the fighting go on and on and on up there. But honestly, what would you do without Alaska? One minute you say a B1900 is perfect for the segment, the next minute you say its only fair competition to have a 737 operating your route. You can't have it both ways.

Fares look pretty good, just picked Nov 13 as a sample travel date, lets look at some one-way fares:
ANC-OTZ $161 AS
ANC-BET $137 AS $140 7H (Era)
ANC-AKN $148 AS $156 KS (Penair)
ANC-DLG $148 AS $156 KS
ANC-ADQ $112 AS $120 7H
ANC-FAI $83 AS $85 7H

Yah its rough times flying in Alaska right now. Like I said, what would you do without Alaska? Lets see you get all your mail and groceries without those daily 737s which you so badly despise.

Maybe Uncle Ted can look into getting rid of this "dated rule protecting the Alaska Airlines monopoly" just like the folks in Dallas did with the Wright Amendment.

Ryan
You can take the pup out of Alaska, but you can't take the Alaska out of the pup.
 
AgnusBymaster
Posts: 620
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:19 pm

"Don't forget that AS had to give up an operational spare to make this work.
By providing this service at late notice, it means that the airline doesn't have a spare aircraft in ANC for OME flights."

The oilfield flights are only two round-trips in the late afternoon and evening, no? It's not like they are tying up the aircraft all day.
 
ASFlyer
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:30 pm

Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 2):
I read the article during lunch today. Too bad Polar Express got shot down, it would have been very interesting to see whether or not they could make a profit conducting these charter flights. It sounded like they had a good business plan



Quoting Roadrunner165 (Reply 37):
Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 29):
As for Polar Express, their business plan was pretty lame.

That is not the point! The true beauty of the United States is that you can have the lamest, shittiest, dumbest business plan in the entire country, but you as an individual are still allowed (entitled even) to go ahead with that plan and pave your own path in life. We have a free economy that encourages people to act on ideas (taking a risk) and create great things (weep the financial reward) from little or nothing. This issue is much deeper then Alaska Airlines and Polar Express.

I was responding to your earlier claim (posted above) that they had a good business plan. I didn't say that they didn't have the right to try to make it work.
 
Lono
Posts: 1136
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 5:47 pm

RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:38 pm

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 43):
a few posts ago you were saying how the smaller planes better suit the communites as opposed to a 737, im a little confused here...

I don't think L-188 was talking about SCC.... but places like OME/OTZ/PSG/WRG/CDV/YAK....
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
roadrunner165
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RE: Alaska Airlines Fights To Keep It's Monopoly

Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting HikesWithEyes (Reply 44):
If you were running the show, wouldn't you charge $$$ for the charter? It's a rough world out there in the airline industry with the fuel and labor prices.



Sure, If I was running the show I would want to make as much money as I could, thats just common business sense. But a free market drives down cost. The entire problem is Alaska Airlines is running the show with no checks and balances in place.

Quoting RyDawg82 (Reply 45):
I would love to see the look on Alaskans' faces if tomorrow morning they woke up to see the front page of the Anchorage Daily News "Alaska Airlines pulls out of all Alaskan markets -- Renamed Pacific Northwest AIrlines." What would they be crying for then? Hey, I am born and raised Alaskan, I have seen the fighting go on and on and on up there. But honestly, what would you do without Alaska?

This is never going to happen so why bring up a moot point?
Just for the record.... I have faith in mankind, we would survive and prosper.
Humans have overcome much larger problems in the past. Why so little faith, RyDawg82?

Quoting HikesWithEyes (Reply 44):
further giving Roadrunner another reason to slam AS.

I like Alaska Airlines. Google tough love. Please don't make it sound like I despise AS. I'm not the type of person who tells my friend they did the right thing when they were clearly in the wrong just to make them fell better. I want to see the best Alaska Airlines possible, and that means they need to operate in a free and open market.

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 43):
And how come we never hear any complaining about Pen Air or Era or Frontier, they are the only airlines that fly to certian locations, and we all know that they can pretty much charge as much as they want....

Apparently people don't seem to have the desire or courage to stand up and fight for those whose voices can not be heard. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Adam

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