lhpdx
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Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:10 pm

There's has been so much talks and Great RUMORS on other threads that a SEA-FRA will start and soon....I know you folks from Seattle are just dying for this service to begin and wish Portland would not have ever gotten it..Some even as have gone as far to say PDX stoled it from Seattle(ouch!)................................Has any new development surface about the starting date for this new service?
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:34 pm

Man, this has never been hashed over before. And I'm sure this won't break out into another SEA vs. PDX pissing match.  sarcastic 
 
Mike89406
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:43 pm

Quoting LHPDX (Thread starter):
I know you folks from Seattle are just dying for this service to begin and wish Portland would not have ever gotten it..Some even as have gone as far to say PDX stoled it from Seattle(ouch!)................................Has any new development surface about the starting date for this new service?

I don't see what the big deal is anyways I'm not from Seattle most of my life and I think Seattle & Portland are both great cities, so what if SEA is bigger than PDX in traffic,size etc... Both cities/airports deserve to grow. If there was anyone who didn't want PDX to get a certain service or SEA then who cares. I really don't get this rivalry between the 2 cities makes no sense to me.

Seems to me that some people or select few have too much time on they're hands and need to get a life. I have better things to worry about in my life than which airport is bigger or better. sheesh......

Quoting SupraZachAir (Reply 1):
Man, this has never been hashed over before. And I'm sure this won't break out into another SEA vs. PDX pissing match.

Cough! Sure that would never happen on A.net.

[Edited 2007-10-15 10:44:19]
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:56 pm

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 2):
I don't see what the big deal is anyways I'm not from Seattle most of my life and I think Seattle & Portland are both great cities, so what if SEA is bigger than PDX in traffic,size etc... Both cities/airports deserve to grow. If there was anyone who didn't want PDX to get a certain service or SEA then who cares. I really don't get this rivalry between the 2 cities makes no sense to me.

I this instance there is also YVR to factor into such an equation. LH serves both PDX and YVR, which makes SEA redundant.

Quoting SupraZachAir (Reply 1):
Man, this has never been hashed over before. And I'm sure this won't break out into another SEA vs. PDX pissing match.  sarcastic 

Actually we very recently discussed this one
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Stitch
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:01 pm

LH sees sufficient traffic on the PDX-FRA route that I expect they don't feel the need to launch a service from SEA.

It's easy enough to hop UAX down to PDX if one wants LH, or you can fly UA to LAX, SFO, ORD or IAD and take either LH or UA from there (depending on which one offers service).
 
Mike89406
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:45 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 3):
Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 2):
I don't see what the big deal is anyways I'm not from Seattle most of my life and I think Seattle & Portland are both great cities, so what if SEA is bigger than PDX in traffic,size etc... Both cities/airports deserve to grow. If there was anyone who didn't want PDX to get a certain service or SEA then who cares. I really don't get this rivalry between the 2 cities makes no sense to me.

I this instance there is also YVR to factor into such an equation. LH serves both PDX and YVR, which makes SEA redundant.

I see. My response is not a matter of why PDX has LH and SEA does not its just the thread seemed like it was pointing to a SEA vs PDX in general paragraph. To simplify it SEA has its fair share of INT'L service already anyways.

Quoting LHPDX (Thread starter):
There's has been so much talks and Great RUMORS on other threads that a SEA-FRA will start and soon....I know you folks from Seattle are just dying for this service to begin and wish Portland would not have ever gotten it..Some even as have gone as far to say PDX stoled it from Seattle(ouch!)................................

And here is my point.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 3):
Both cities/airports deserve to grow. If there was anyone who didn't want PDX to get a certain service or SEA then who cares. I really don't get this rivalry between the 2 cities makes no sense to me.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:51 pm

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 5):
To simplify it SEA has its fair share of INT'L service already anyways.

They pale in comparison to what YVR has to offer just three hours or so up I-5. The Port Authority of Seattle is very envious of such needless to say.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
Mike89406
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:57 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 6):
Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 5):
To simplify it SEA has its fair share of INT'L service already anyways.

They pale in comparison to what YVR has to offer just three hours or so up I-5. The Port Authority of Seattle is very envious of such needless to say.

Of course I'm not saying SEA has dominance over YVR. YVR definitely has an advantage in that dept. But between PDX & SEA its a different story. Matter of fact SEA has had steady service with NWA to Asia as long as I can remember.
 
LHUSA
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:58 pm

Any big decisions like this are usually discussed at the monthly board meeting. Whenver new routes are approved they are usually released publically within days. So, if LH were to begin SEA service, we'd probably find out shortly after the first Tuesday in November. Personally, I think LH would be very successful offering both PDX and SEA.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:03 pm

Quoting SupraZachAir (Reply 1):
And I'm sure this won't break out into another SEA vs. PDX pissing match.

Kinda too late for that now. Just wait a day or two.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 3):
Actually we very recently discussed this one

I remember the thread well. It was ugly!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:14 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 6):
They pale in comparison to what YVR has to offer just three hours or so up I-5. The Port Authority of Seattle is very envious of such needless to say.

YVR is also the only (major) Western Canadian international gateway, while the US has LAX and SFO, which somewhat negates the need for significant service from cities like SEA and PDX. Also, with modern airliners having plenty of range even at full loads, SEA's closer proximity to many Asian cities is no longer needed.
 
rwsea
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:23 pm

Next summer, SEA will have at least 5 daily flights to Europe (2x LHR, 1x CDG, 1x AMS, 1x CPH), which doesn't consider rumored increases in frequency on NW to AMS. I think we're doing just fine without LH. Of course, FRA is probably the last big hole in our European network, but it isn't so critical given what we already have. I'd expect a FRA service by someone in the next 3-4 years (be it LH, UA, NW, ...) but whether it's going to be next year is just speculation at this point.
 
Mike89406
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:27 pm

I forgot to mention BA has had flights SEA-LHR IIRC since before I remember my friend flying to London back in the the late 80's.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
YVR is also the only (major) Western Canadian international gateway, while the US has LAX and SFO, which somewhat negates the need for significant service from cities like SEA and PDX. Also, with modern airliners having plenty of range even at full loads, SEA's closer proximity to many Asian cities is no longer needed.

That may be the case now however I see that opening up the European/Scandanavian market even more for SEA since Jets go long distances in comparison to the older jets.

[Edited 2007-10-15 12:58:13]
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:34 pm

Quoting LHUSA (Reply 8):
I think LH would be very successful offering both PDX and SEA.

One would do pretty serious damage to the other.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
YVR is also the only (major) Western Canadian international gateway

They also have a MUCH better terminal/customs and airfield set-up than does SEA.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
LAX and SFO, which somewhat negates the need for significant service from cities like SEA and PDX.

SEA still has a very large Asian community (especially Chinese) that could provide any carrier with a significant O&D base for trans-Pacific service. But you're correct about it being overshadowed by LAX and SFO on the U.S. side of the border. Actually however the advent of newer mid-sized air frames that are super long haul such as the 787 will eventually favor both SEA and PDX getting more trans-Pacific service than less.
But in relationship to YVR, SEA also draws many from the lower mainland of B.C. down to pick up a U.S. flight since it is so much cheaper to get on a WN flight to MCO (via an SLC, DEN, LAS or PHX connection) or to somewhere in Arizona or Florida during the colder and darker winter months. I also should point out that my wife's family is from Vancouver Island and it is far cheaper to fly into SEA and rent a car (Even at their exorbitant tax rates  irked  ! ) than fly SLC-YVR by as much as $300/per person. Seattle might have an expensive airport (In the same league as YYZ and MIA for example), but the fact that WN is there and competing helps keep air-fares at an acceptable level.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
rwsea
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:14 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 13):
One would do pretty serious damage to the other.

I don't see how that's the case, unless UA's SEA-PDX flights are completely full with FRA bound pax (which I don't think they are). Honestly, flying SEA-AMS-FRA or SEA-ORD-FRA or SEA-CPH-FRA is just as easy as flying SEA-PDX-FRA. Any SEA-FRA traffic over Portland would be lower yielding anyways. In the case of NW and SEA/PDX-NRT, the addition of PDX only helped to reduce demand on SEA, and SEA-NRT is doing better than ever.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
YVR is also the only (major) Western Canadian international gateway, while the US has LAX and SFO, which somewhat negates the need for significant service from cities like SEA and PDX. Also, with modern airliners having plenty of range even at full loads, SEA's closer proximity to many Asian cities is no longer needed.

While I agree that SFO and LAX are most important gateways, I don't know if they negate the need for non-stop service. Connecting in ORD, MSP, DTW, etc. is just as easy, as well as more convenient.

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 12):
I forgot to mention BA has had flights SEA-LHR IIRC since before I remember my friend flying to London back in the the late 80's.

UA has previously flown the route as well. Up until the mid-1990s.

Quoting LHPDX (Thread starter):
I know you folks from Seattle are just dying for this service to begin and wish Portland would not have ever gotten it..Some even as have gone as far to say PDX stoled it from Seattle(ouch!)

Um I haven't seen too many comments like that. I for one am happy that there are more options to Pacific Northwest travelers. For instance, the upcoming PDX-AMS will pull some of the connecting traffic from SEA and will also be a more convenient option for PDX travelers. This lessens demand on SEA-AMS and (hopefully) results in slightly lower fares. I don't see how that's a bad thing for anyone, unless you have some sort of silly grudge.
 
Mike89406
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:27 pm

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 15):
Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 12):
I forgot to mention BA has had flights SEA-LHR IIRC since before I remember my friend flying to London back in the the late 80's.

UA has previously flown the route as well. Up until the mid-1990s

Oh yeah. Didn't UA also have flights SEA-NRT/HND back in the day?
 
rwsea
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:32 pm

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 16):
Oh yeah. Didn't UA also have flights SEA-NRT/HND back in the day?

Yes. They flew SEA-HKG at one point too, I believe.

Regarding LHR, there's rumors that Virgin wants to launch SEA-LHR once they get their 787s, but nothing firm.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:47 pm

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 17):
Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 16):
Oh yeah. Didn't UA also have flights SEA-NRT/HND back in the day?

Yes. They flew SEA-HKG at one point too, I believe.

SEA-NRT and SEA-HKG which began in 1983 were UA's first international routes other than Canada.
 
ctbarnes
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:00 pm

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 16):
Oh yeah. Didn't UA also have flights SEA-NRT/HND back in the day?

They still do. UA lost the route in the late 80's when they acquired PA's Pacific network. It went first to Continental, then American who switched the slot someplace else (I think DFW but I could be wrong). UA started flying SEA-NRT again in 1998, first with a 744 and currently with a 777.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 15):
Connecting in ORD, MSP, DTW, etc. is just as easy, as well as more convenient.

Not in my experience. I've been through ORD and DTW connecting from Int'l to domestic and it's a major hassle.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 15):
Quoting LHPDX (Thread starter):
I know you folks from Seattle are just dying for this service to begin and wish Portland would not have ever gotten it..Some even as have gone as far to say PDX stoled it from Seattle(ouch!)

I don't think PDX stole the route, nor to I wish PDX had never gotten it. PDX is underserved by transatlantic flights, now they're set to have two (LH and NW), which I think is great.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
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ER757
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 13):
SEA still has a very large Asian community (especially Chinese) that could provide any carrier with a significant O&D base for trans-Pacific service.

Hainan Air has applied for SEA/PEK starting in June 2008. They'll use A330's until their 787's arrive (pending approval for the route of course).
 
Viscount724
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:23 pm

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 7):
Of course I'm not saying SEA has dominance over YVR. YVR definitely has an advantage in that dept.

SEA's service to Europe is fully competitive with YVR. In fact SEA has year-round nonstop service to one more city in Europe than YVR (LHR/AMS/CDG/CPH from SEA vs. LHR/AMS/FRA from YVR). And SEA has service to 2 points in Europe (CPH and CDG) with no direct service from YVR.
 
threeifbyair
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:39 am

The YVR factor for SEA local residents is pretty much meaningless. The Seattle Metropolitan Area has 3,200,000 people. I don't think too many of them who can afford to travel to Europe will be driving 3+ hours to YVR, especially with the poor USD-CAD exchange rate. I don't think Microsoft, Boeing, T-Mobile, Amazon, or any other leading company is going to tell employees or clients to drive 3+ hours from YVR to SEA because it saves time or money. It isn't faster and it isn't cheaper.

The big money on Europe flights is up front and in the cargo hold. I don't think premium customers or shippers would want to use YVR instead of SEA - they pay for comfort and convenience, not customs and congestion.

One positive factor for FRA-SEA service is that the T-Mobile USA headquarters is in nearby Bellevue, WA - about 30 minutes from SEA on a good day.

Bottom line: 2 separate markets.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:48 am

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 22):
The YVR factor for SEA local residents is pretty much meaningless. The Seattle Metropolitan Area has 3,200,000 people. I don't think too many of them who can afford to travel to Europe will be driving 3+ hours to YVR, especially with the poor USD-CAD exchange rate. I don't think Microsoft, Boeing, T-Mobile, Amazon, or any other leading company is going to tell employees or clients to drive 3+ hours from YVR to SEA because it saves time or money. It isn't faster and it isn't cheaper.

You are not necessarily correct. AC will often sell through fares from the USA via Canada to Europe at lower fares than for travel originating at the connecting point in Canada. It helps fill seats during low-traffic periods. That has nothing to do with exchange rates. The same applies from Europe to the USA via Canada where there is no issue of a different currency.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
And SEA has service to 2 points in Europe (CPH and CDG) with no direct service from YVR.

Thanks largely to Canada's bilateral with France that as I understand it essentially prohibits YVR-CDG direct flights without a stop first in YUL.

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 22):
The big money on Europe flights is up front and in the cargo hold. I don't think premium customers or shippers would want to use YVR instead of SEA - they pay for comfort and convenience, not customs and congestion.

The issue I'm referring to is Asia rather than Europe. YVR has MUCH more service on trans-Pacific routes than does SEA and likely will for the foreseeable future.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
Mike89406
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:37 am

This is what it shows for current international flights http://www.portseattle.org/about/maps/internationalroutes.shtml http://www.portseattle.org/seatac/traveler/theairlines.shtml

The ones I know of are NWA, EVA, Asiana, UA, China Air, SAS, Alaska. Air France. I may be missing some but this is a rough list.


I know you got to take Wikipedia with a grain of salt However

SEA- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle-Tacoma_International_Airport
PDX- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDX
YVR- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YVR

[Edited 2007-10-15 18:48:18]
 
flysherwood
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:38 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 13):
One would do pretty serious damage to the other.

I don't see why. NWA has SEA and PDX - NRT. They are going to start having PDX - AMS even though SEA - AMS already exists. The NRT service from PDX did not hurt the SEA service. Too many people assume that SEA and PDX are just too small for a lot of International service which is just not the case. SEA's business segment is huge now. Between Microsoft, Boeing, Starbuck's and Weyerhauser etc..., they have plenty of business travellers to support all of the service. PDX has Nike, Adidas America, Tektronix, Intel and Weiden & Kennedy besides all of the Japanese owned chip manufacturers to support their international service. All of these businesses do not want their employees sitting around waiting for connections to and from LAX or SFO which is a complete waste of time. LH is doing perfectly well in PDX and should continue to do so.
 
buslover
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RE: Lufthansa And Seattle?

Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:24 pm

Seattle = Microsoft Headquarter
Munich = Microsoft Europe headquarter

So why not SEA - MUC?
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