DAL767400ER
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Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:07 pm

http://www.reuters.com/article/marke...sNews/idUKL1631889120071016?rpc=44

Quote:
PARIS, Oct 16 (Reuters) - Air France (AIRF.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) and Delta Air Lines (DAL.N: Quote, Profile, Research) are preparing to announce a new commercial deal as the gloves come off in a war for transatlantic business under the recent Open Skies deal between Europe and the United States.

The French carrier declined to comment on the joint venture ahead of a news conference and signing ceremony on Wednesday.

But analysts said it had given broad outlines of its transatlantic plans at an investor conference on Monday, including plans to fly direct from Heathrow to Los Angeles.

Chief Executive Jean-Cyril Spinetta told investors the deal with Delta would add "several dozens of million euros" in profits in 2008, according to two analyst notes on the event.

Air France has said it is close to finalising a deal with Skyteam partner Delta that would create better cost-sharing and integration on the transatlantic routes.

The Delta venture will be based partially on a 10-year-old agreement between KLM, which is part of the same group as Air France, and Northwest Airlines (NWA.N: Quote, Profile, Research), by pooling the economic benefit from transatlantic services, analysts said.

The deal follows an Open Skies agreement to free up competition between Europe and the United States from April.

"Air France-KLM has clearly decided to seize the new opportunities offered by the Open Skies agreement, especially for traffic departing from London Heathrow," Paris brokerage Oddo said in a note to clients.

In a direct challenge to British Airways (BAY.L: Quote, Profile, Research), Heathrow slots will be used to serve nine U.S. destinations under the AF code, including a Los Angeles flight operated by Air France itself, analysts said.

Did something get lost in translation here? Nine US destinations served from LHR? Where are all those slots supposed to come from, and who'll be flying those? Okay, LAX (AF), ATL/JFK (DL) are a given, but on top of that? BOS/CVG/SLC *could* be, but I'm not really convinced.
 
flyingcat
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:36 pm

Since AF technically owns KLM can they be anteing up their slots too? So far a report for ORY JFK but the LHR destinations might not be known until tomorrow.

[Edited 2007-10-16 05:50:08]
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:41 pm

Lets hold our breath until tomorrow, then we can pick the pieces out of whats disclosed!
 
varig md-11
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:45 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Thread starter):
Nine US destinations served from LHR? Where are all those slots supposed to come from, and who'll be flying those?

they say in the article one flight will be operated directly by AF, the others will have AF code using LHR slots
if you consider AF and KL have lots of slots at LHR to fly boringly to CDG and AMS, they could be re-directed to juicy accross-the-pond flights

the link between London and Paris is 2 hours something with Hi speed train: who needs to fly now?
furthermore AF is refining its offfer on London city airport from France which is more convenient for Hi-fliers demanding a jet instead of a train
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TN
 
jwmd123
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:46 pm

Between the 2 of them how may slots would both AF and KL have at LHR?

Could they reduce services from AMS and CDG to use those slots to start new T/A routes?
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:47 pm

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 3):
they say in the article one flight will be operated directly by AF, the others will have AF code using LHR slots
if you consider AF and KL have lots of slots at LHR to fly boringly to CDG and AMS, they could be re-directed to juicy accross-the-pond flights

I'm fully aware that AF/KL have a lot of slots at LHR, but the problem is that quite a few of them are for flights in the afternoon or evening and thus not attractive for US flights, save for maybe JFK.
 
latinaviation
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:48 pm

There was an Air France-KLM Investor Day yesterday and JP Morgan issued an investor note stating that LHR-LAX would be flown by AF and the other frequencies are likely to be used to DL+NW hubs, plus Newark.

The report also said that AF had sold LHR slots to Continental, where as they will lease slots to DL for the LHR transatlantic routes.
 
commavia
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:20 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Thread starter):
Did something get lost in translation here? Nine US destinations served from LHR? Where are all those slots supposed to come from, and who'll be flying those? Okay, LAX (AF), ATL/JFK (DL) are a given, but on top of that? BOS/CVG/SLC *could* be, but I'm not really convinced.

Neither am I. Certainly anything's possible, and as UAL777UK said, we'll just have to wait until tomorrow to see what's officially announced, but I suspect that Reuters just reported it wrong. I don't think AF/DL are going to be launching 9 routes from Heathrow nonstop to the U.S. - at most, I can only think of maybe 5-6 cities that could even support their service profitably, at least initially.

Earlier reports in The Times and elsewhere referred to Delta flying - not unexpectedly - to Atlanta and JFK, plus "one other American city" (presumably Cincinnati, or perhaps Boston) while Air France was looking at Los Angeles. That's hardly nine cities.

The only other alternative I could possibly imagine in this is that perhaps what Air France meant by "Heathrow slots will be used to serve nine U.S. destinations under the AF code" will be AF's flight to LAX, Delta's flights to ATL, JFK and the mystery city, plus codeshares placed on CO flights to IAH and EWR, and NW flights to DTW and possibly MSP.
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:22 pm

I can see DL flying LAX-LHR but not AF
 
FWAERJ
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:25 pm

My bets for the nine cities:

DL:
JFK
ATL (of course!)
CVG (the mystery city)

AF:
LAX

NW:
DTW
MSP

CO:
IAH
EWR
CLE? (fits into CO's CLE expansion plans)
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
mindscape
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:45 pm

Quoting LatinAviation (Reply 6):
The report also said that AF had sold LHR slots to Continental, where as they will lease slots to DL for the LHR transatlantic routes

Why is that if AF plans to put their code on CO flights ex-LHR as well ... can somebody explain ?
 
FWAERJ
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:47 pm

Quoting Mindscape (Reply 10):
Why is that if AF plans to put their code on CO flights ex-LHR as well ... can somebody explain ?

DL, CO, NW, AF, and KL are all SkyTeam members. All codeshare with each other on trans-Atlantic routes.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
mindscape
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:52 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 11):
DL, CO, NW, AF, and KL are all SkyTeam members. All codeshare with each other on trans-Atlantic routes.

Thank you for this, but my question was on the slots sold to CO while they are leased to DL...
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:25 pm

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 8):
I can see DL flying LAX-LHR but not AF

DL doesn't have the free equipment available for an LHR-LAX flight, thus AF would be the carrier to operate the route. Plus, with the 77W, they'd also offer the superior product.

Quoting Mindscape (Reply 10):
Why is that if AF plans to put their code on CO flights ex-LHR as well ... can somebody explain ?

That's probably due to CO's role in Skyteam. CO is more or less the 5th wheel on the AF/DL/KL/NW vehicle, and CO themselves essentially think that way themselves. Thus, AF probably prefers to sell their slots to CO and get a large some of money now in case their relationship were to end, and lease them to DL so that DL won't have to pay everything at once, knowing that the relationship between DL and AF is here to stay for quite some more years.
 
mindscape
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:41 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 13):
That's probably due to CO's role in Skyteam. CO is more or less the 5th wheel on the AF/DL/KL/NW vehicle, and CO themselves essentially think that way themselves. Thus, AF probably prefers to sell their slots to CO and get a large some of money now in case their relationship were to end, and lease them to DL so that DL won't have to pay everything at once, knowing that the relationship between DL and AF is here to stay for quite some more years.

Thank you for your explanation and point of view... in this case, it means that AF itself doesn't see CO as a valuable partner which is a sad/shame thing. In parallel with DL, AF could have strenghen their CO ties with the Open Sky opportunities...
 
icna05e
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:03 pm

This I reckon would be a very expensive operation: AF needs to base 2 (?) aircraft at LHR for this sole operation to be carried out somewhat reliably. With all the pilots, F/A, maintenance and commercial crew involved... I am not sure this is such a good idea for just one destination, all the more quite a competitive one.

Another solution for the aircraft could be to rotate them from CDG. what a headache!

Alexis
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:11 pm

Quoting Icna05e (Reply 15):
This I reckon would be a very expensive operation: AF needs to base 2 (?) aircraft at LHR for this sole operation to be carried out somewhat reliably. With all the pilots, F/A, maintenance and commercial crew involved... I am not sure this is such a good idea for just one destination, all the more quite a competitive one.

Doubt AF will base a 77W at LHR, more likely it will be routed CDG-LAX-LHR-LAX-CDG. Don't know how that works out with crews, though.
 
latinaviation
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:12 pm

Air France-KLM will post their investor day presentation at this site tomorrow (10/17):
http://airfranceklm-iday.momentys.com/

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 13):
That's probably due to CO's role in Skyteam.

According the JPM report, you're correct.
 
runway23
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:14 pm

Something is definately being loaded into the schedule right now.

Even delta.com reflects this as it now recognizes ORY and LHR which it didn't do yesterday.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:20 pm

Quoting Mindscape (Reply 14):
In parallel with DL, AF could have strenghen their CO ties with the Open Sky opportunities...

Perhaps they tried; CO is often the reluctant party in these deals.
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:36 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 13):
DL doesn't have the free equipment available for an LHR-LAX flight, thus AF would be the carrier to operate the route. Plus, with the 77W, they'd also offer the superior product.

do you think LON based pax would fly AF to LAX??? I dont. Also connections in LHR would be very very limited. They could have codeshare connections with DL in LAX to a very limited number of destinations but it woudl involved changing terminals with longer elapsed connect times. DL could perhaps pull it off, but AF no way.

This is mostly fantasy, most likely a warning to BA not to start Europe-USA flights with 757s
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:41 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 16):
Don't know how that works out with crews, though.

Probably the same way NZ crews their LAX-LHR flight. The FA's would probably be LHR based to avoid US labour laws and the FD crew would probably be CDG based on a 6 or 7 day pattern.
Made from jets!
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:42 pm

I just hope DL can get into LHR with alot of its own metal instead of codesharing everything with AF.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:45 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 21):
The FA's would probably be LHR based to avoid US labour laws

I'd think they'd rather have US labour laws over EU, especially French, laws no?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:49 pm

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 20):
do you think LON based pax would fly AF to LAX??? I dont.

I most definitely can. In the end, it's all a question of quality, service, and to a lesser degree also alliance allegiance that decides what airlines pax will fly. Granted, whether AF will be able to profitably fill a 77W to LAX remains to be seen, but no doubt they should be able to fill it.

That said, I'd say that in the next few years it'll be every carrier trying to serve every market between Europe and the US (AF entering LHR-USA, BA and VS looking at Continental Europe - USA, etc) until a point in the future when most of the smaller carriers (Maxjet, EOS, L'Avion) have been eliminated by the "Big Dogs" and in the end those big dogs will be back to focusing on their own stronghold (AF at CDG, BA at LHR), instead of flying everywhere (pending any potential mergers and takeovers of course).
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:00 pm

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 20):
do you think LON based pax would fly AF to LAX

Give it a year, assuming AF start thre route, it will be ditched. I cannot see most British passengers flying AF no matter what product they are offering, so they are going to have to rely on a lot of pull elsewhere to succeed I think. Time will tell.
 
papatango
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:16 pm

Quoting Runway23 (Reply 18):

Reply 18, posted Tue Oct 16 2007 11:14:42 your local time (59 minutes 57 secs ago) and read 368 times:

I just checked Delta.com and neither ORY or LHR are loaded
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:20 pm

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 25):
Give it a year, assuming AF start thre route, it will be ditched.

Yeah I'm pretty sure it'll be like deregulation all over again--everyone will start every new route under the sun, realize they all suck, and retract to their hubs and strengths.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
jrlander
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:23 pm

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 25):
Give it a year, assuming AF start thre route, it will be ditched. I cannot see most British passengers flying AF no matter what product they are offering, so they are going to have to rely on a lot of pull elsewhere to succeed I think. Time will tell.

You make a good point. However, LA has lots of loyal NW and DL flyers. In addition, DL has a growing number of West Coast connections through LAX. I expect they will more likely rely on the strength of that existing Skyteam customer base in LA.
 
runway23
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:23 pm

Quoting Papatango (Reply 26):

I just checked Delta.com and neither ORY or LHR are loaded

The schedules are not loaded. But try typing in ORY or LHR and it will come back with the full name. This was, just yesterday, something which the system did not do. The same thing happened last time around when Delta added flights to new destinations.
 
Joost
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 11):

DL, CO, NW, AF, and KL are all SkyTeam members. All codeshare with each other on trans-Atlantic routes.

No, they do not. They are not allowed either.

In order to codeshare, the airlines need to:
1. Have traffic rights to the destination. In the current Bermuda II-situation, NW is not even allowed to codeshare on KL flights to LHR, for example.
2. Have anti-trust immunity.

From April, the 1st point is not relevant any longer. The second point is.

Within Skyteam, anti-trust immunity is granted to:
KLM & NWA
AF & Delta
AF & NWA (IIRC on DTW-CDG only)

Although the situation is quite strange in a certain way (AF and KLM of course coordinate their schedules, but their partners must compete), this is the way it is.

Airlines are allowed to codeshare beyond their hubs as much as they want, as this does not reduce competition.

For example, CO and KL compete with each other on AMS-EWR and AMS-IAH. If they would codeshare, they would not compete any longer, reducing competition.

However, CO is allowed to put it's code on AMS-HEL, and KL is allowed to put it's code on EWR-MSY, as CO would not be a competitor on AMS-HEL anyways (and nor would KL on EWR-MSY).

The relations between airlines in an alliance are often very complex. It's certainly far from being just each others best friend and only promoting mutual advantage - on some aspects they work together as one company, on other aspects they compete terribly with each other.
 
Humberside
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:47 pm

I imagine LHR-LAX will play an important part in DL's plans for LAX (I assume they will codeshare on it)
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acelanzarote
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:50 pm

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 25):
I cannot see most British passengers flying AF no matter what product they are offering

Either you don't like Air France long haul or have never flown them, They are good and if the price is right
they will easy fill a 777 to LAX, sure there is plenty of demand for that route.
If it was Iberia you where talking about I would totally agree  duck 
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avek00
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:00 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 11):
DL, CO, NW, AF, and KL are all SkyTeam members. All codeshare with each other on trans-Atlantic routes.

CO codeshares with NONE of those airlines on Trans-Atlantic routes.
Live life to the fullest.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:32 pm

Quoting Acelanzarote (Reply 32):
Either you don't like Air France long haul or have never flown them, They are good and if the price is right
they will easy fill a 777 to LAX, sure there is plenty of demand for that route.
If it was Iberia you where talking about I would totally agree

I have flown them a few times, nothing special but granted it was only short haul. You say they will easily fill a 777 on route, yes but at what price and will they fill up the front..... high load factor maybe, crap yields, I expect so....will be interesting to see how long AF will throw money at it. As I said, I give it a year.
 
ScottB
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:45 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
Earlier reports in The Times and elsewhere referred to Delta flying - not unexpectedly - to Atlanta and JFK, plus "one other American city" (presumably Cincinnati, or perhaps Boston) while Air France was looking at Los Angeles. That's hardly nine cities.

I suppose the wild card here would be how corporate contracts might be driving the choice of routes. Delta has tried BOS-London before, as recently as 2001 with BOS-LGW, and the route was a disaster. However, that was before UA dropped its BOS-LHR service and also before AA reduced its BOS-LHR service to two dailies as well. With corporate contracts, there's an outside shot that DL/AF could make BOS-LHR finally work. The AF/DL (and KL/NW) joint ventures may need a specific set of LHR-U.S. routes to bring corporate clients on-board.

The chances that BA would fly LHR-CVG are infinitesimal. Delta dominates the CVG market, and just about any connection via CVG to London could be sent via ATL to reach LHR. That's why IMHO there's a possibility that Delta may not fly CVG-LHR.
 
Joost
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:47 pm

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 34):
You say they will easily fill a 777 on route, yes but at what price and will they fill up the front..... high load factor maybe, crap yields, I expect so....will be interesting to see how long AF will throw money at it.

And if it were a DL flight, would you say the same?

AF&DL have stated that it will be a joint-venture similar to the one of KL&NW, so basically it doesn't really matter which airline is flying. Add to that Flying Blue members in the UK, large contracts of UK & USA firms with either DL or AF; I think they can handle it.
 
avek00
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:50 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 19):
Perhaps they tried; CO is often the reluctant party in these deals.

Very much the case -- CO ran various circles around NWA and KLM to avoid having to join the TATL Joint Venture, which was called for in the original NWA/CO Master Alliance Agreement.
Live life to the fullest.
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:51 pm

With XE starting TUS-LAX for DL, connecting to that AF flight should be easy. I guess I will see tomorrow how easy it will be.
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EXAAUADL
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:54 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 24):
I most definitely can. In the end, it's all a question of quality, service, and to a lesser degree also alliance allegiance that decides what airlines pax will fly. Granted, whether AF will be able to profitably fill a 77W to LAX remains to be seen, but no doubt they should be able to fill it.

It isnt as though VS and BA dont have good products.....I can see DL doing this but not AF
 
mindscape
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:02 pm

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 37):
Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 19):
Perhaps they tried; CO is often the reluctant party in these deals.

Very much the case -- CO ran various circles around NWA and KLM to avoid having to join the TATL Joint Venture, which was called for in the original NWA/CO Master Alliance Agreement.

Interesting, so this reluctance has existed before the Skyteam membership. But why is that ? why CO has stated itself in a "rebellion" mode towards alliance active participation ?
 
icna05e
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:04 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Thread starter):
The Delta venture will be based partially on a 10-year-old agreement between KLM, which is part of the same group as Air France, and Northwest Airlines

Can someone elaborate on that please? I expect it to be a brand new agreement, albeit with the same status/juridictionnal structure but somehow this sentence makes me think it could be an expansion of the current KL/NW joint-venture.

I wish I was a native speaker... errr no actually I wish I just had the ease in English of a native speaker. That is just far from possible  Sad
 
incitatus
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:06 pm

The outcome of this JV won't be pretty. Airlines need psychiatrists to help them out of suicidal tendencies.
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Joost
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:21 pm

Quoting Icna05e (Reply 41):
Can someone elaborate on that please? I expect it to be a brand new agreement, albeit with the same status/juridictionnal structure

This is what my interpretation of the sentence is. The concept and the idea of KL+NW, but of course a brand new agreement for AF+DL. But they can of course use the KL+NW framework as a template.

Quoting Mindscape (Reply 40):
Interesting, so this reluctance has existed before the Skyteam membership. But why is that ? why CO has stated itself in a "rebellion" mode towards alliance active participation ?

In the KL+NW joint venture, the airlines share both costs and revenues; effectually they operate as one airline. They have advantages of scale (more sales channels, more possibilities to serve thinner routes), but they also need to adapt their business model to the alliance and they are quite dependable of each other: if for example NW fails to control it's costs, KL will also suffer; or if KL sells tickets for prices that are too low, NW will also suffer. You need to work very closely together and rely on each other. CO have decided that they can operate better all alone, without having to share everything with another company. Add to that: CO and NW are competitors (and thus cooperation is more difficult), whereas NW and KL have never really been competitors (despite transatl).
 
latinaviation
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:27 pm

Quoting Icna05e (Reply 41):
Can someone elaborate on that please? I expect it to be a brand new agreement, albeit with the same status/juridictionnal structure but somehow this sentence makes me think it could be an expansion of the current KL/NW joint-venture.

It will be a new jv. DL/AF/KL/NW applied for anti-trust immunity which is expected no later than June 2008, according to the Investor Day.
 
Joost
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RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:57 pm

Quoting LatinAviation (Reply 44):
It will be a new jv. DL/AF/KL/NW applied for anti-trust immunity which is expected no later than June 2008, according to the Investor Day.

Do you have a link to that? About a year ago they applied for ATI as well, but it was rejected. Of course, the open skies agreements makes an important difference and I won't be too surprised if they get ATI, but just being curious.
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2106
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:01 pm

Quoting Joost (Reply 36):
And if it were a DL flight, would you say the same?

No, I probably wouldn't, I think DL would have more of a success than AF will. Good luck to AF...they are going to need it IMHO
 
PHX Flyer
Posts: 534
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 9:52 pm

RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:50 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 13):
with the 77W, they'd also offer the superior product

With the planned ten abreast seating in coach, I doubt that very much. Personally, I'd prefer an old Delta B767.
 
Alitalia744
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Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:07 pm

deleted.


filler filler filler
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
icna05e
Posts: 130
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:11 pm

RE: Air France To Compete At Heathrow In Delta Jv

Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:23 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 35):
The AF/DL (and KL/NW) joint ventures may need a specific set of LHR-U.S. routes to bring corporate clients on-board.

That could very well be the key reason for such an enterprise. I didn't think of it.

Thanks Joost and LatinAviation for your help. It makes sense this way...

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