cayman
Posts: 739
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 2:28 am

YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:12 am

It's nice to see a step in right direction for YYZ, even if a small one. At least the fees and costs are slowly moving down and not increasing. Maybe the Greater Toronto Airports Authority (GTAA) and local authorities in Greater Toronto region can now finally push the feds to eliminate the blatantly unfair surcharge (rent) levied against YYZ and the GTAA will be able to really make some competitive improvements.

I have always been amazed, with the importance of a major airport to a region, and the ever tighter race for votes in Greater Toronto, why one of the two credible Canadian federal parties has not seized this issue and come up with a proposal to do something about it. Admittedly, it is not an issue that gets a ton of airplay but just explain to a typical GTA resident how the feds jam Toronto for airport rents and they quickly get interested.


http://www.reportonbusiness.com/serv...y/robNews/home?cid=al_gam_mostview
 
ricardofg
Posts: 581
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:09 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:21 am

FANTASTIC!!! Maybe YYZ can become even more attractive now to more carriers to enter this market...even though 2007 has been a pretty good year! It would be great to see the Virgin Atlantics, Iberias, Swiss, etc of the world return after leaving for high landing fees, among other reasons
 
pnwtraveler
Posts: 1064
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:12 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:37 am

There are already rumours of other carriers coming floating around. This will only fuel rumours even more. But hopefully a number of them will be true. Some of the airlines mentioned need additional approvals and rights before they can add service. Branson has said he would like to return to Toronto. I am just not sure the loads are there for him.
 
scrubbsywg
Posts: 1095
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:35 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:39 am

i think some of it would have to do with the classic canadian political issue of alienating, perceived or real, the west and quebec in favour of toronto.
 
Cruiser
Posts: 920
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:08 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:48 am

It is certainly one of Lloyd McCoomb's prerogatives to lower landing fees at Pearson. Seeing this announcement today is a start, but there is still a LONG way to go. 3-4% is still very minor when you compare what YYZ is charging compared to the other airports...now, if we see that same 3-4% reduction every year for the next 15 years, then we might be talking.

Trouble is, YYZ still has a lot of excess capacity (IFT, T3 Satellite) that is considered to be much less desirable to the carriers, and therefore no one wants to be stuck using those areas. Yet, it still costs a fortune to keep the lights on and some heat in the building. The GTAA has to figure out a way to leverage those assets and make them more desirable to some carriers.
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
sebring
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:21 am

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 4):
Yet, it still costs a fortune to keep the lights on and some heat in the building.

Well, YYZ does have its own cogeneration plant - quite a substantial one, too, 100 MW I believe – but your point is taken.
 
cayman
Posts: 739
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 2:28 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:43 pm

Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 3):
i think some of it would have to do with the classic canadian political issue of alienating, perceived or real, the west and quebec in favour of toronto.

Point taken and you are correct, the 800 lb gorrilla in the room in Canadian politics is alwasy fear of alienating just about anyone BUT Toronto and Ontario. Irony is that on any objective standard, there can be no debate on the issue, the rent formula is blatantly prejudicial to Toronto. It's a sad state of national politics when, to apply equitable principles and establish a balanced and fair rental formula to ALL airports on just terms, would be to "alienate" other regions.

Frankly, as has been discussed here often, they should not be charging rent in any event, to any of the airports.
 
swissy
Posts: 1481
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:12 pm

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:30 pm

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 4):
It is certainly one of Lloyd McCoomb's prerogatives to lower landing fees at Pearson. Seeing this announcement today is a start, but there is still a LONG way to go. 3-4% is still very minor when you compare what YYZ is charging compared to the other airports...now, if we see that same 3-4% reduction every year for the next 15 years, then we might be talking.

Agree, a step in to the right direction... finally, no need to hype about it as 3-4% from very expensive is still expensive  Wink

Quoting CayMan (Reply 6):
Frankly, as has been discussed here often, they should not be charging rent in any event, to any of the airports.

Well whom would GTAA blame then...... Big grin for these high fees???

Cheers,
 
Cruiser
Posts: 920
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:08 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:40 pm

Quoting Sebring (Reply 5):

Well, YYZ does have its own cogeneration plant - quite a substantial one, too, 100 MW I believe – but your point is taken.

117MW...but it is hardly ever in use because most of the time it is cheaper to buy power from Mississauga.
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
pnwtraveler
Posts: 1064
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:12 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:10 pm

Yes the cogeneration is as much there for back up for periods like the brown outs of previous summers and the big black out of the eastern seaboard a few summers ago. Mississauga hydro is pretty good.
 
sebring
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:18 pm

The cogeneration station is neither idle nor serving purely as backup.

The GTAA has a contract under an OPA special program for new generation capacity that guarantees such plants adequate returns, over market rates, to supply electricity. Now, I don't doubt that because power rates have been lower than anticipated, that the GTAA is BUYING all of its electricity from Mississauga Hydro, but it is also using the OPA capacity purchase agreement to sell power at a higher rate. By buying power for its own use from the grid and selling power at a higher rate to the grid it is presumably making a tidy little gain.

Here is today's generating report for the three turbines at the GTAA cogen plant. Two of them appear to be operating at about normal, since the OPA is contracted to buy 90 MW of the 117 MW output.

http://reports.ieso.ca/public/GenOut...B_GenOutputCapability_20071017.xml
 
threepoint
Posts: 1292
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:57 pm

Quoting Sebring (Reply 10):
Here is today's generating report for the three turbines at the GTAA cogen plant. Two of them appear to be operating at about normal, since the OPA is contracted to buy 90 MW of the 117 MW output.

What does this report tell the reader? That the two turbines have only been producing output for the last 3 of 11 hours?
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
sebring
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:22 pm

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 11):
What does this report tell the reader? That the two turbines have only been producing output for the last 3 of 11 hours?

It couldn't be plainer. Since 9 a.m. in the morning, when daytime demand levels kick in, the plant has been generating electricity. The report is updated periodically through the day, and by 1:45, the three turbines were producing significant power.
 
Qazar
Posts: 180
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 4:18 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:16 pm

Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 2):
There are already rumours of other carriers coming floating around.

I know LH was flirting with the idea of launching flights ex MUC to YYZ. This would definitly help put that 2nd daily rotation on the map!!!
 
HanginOut
Posts: 521
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 3:24 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:45 pm

Quoting Swissy (Reply 7):
Well whom would GTAA blame then...... for these high fees???

I agree with Swissy. By lowering the fees (ever so slightly) the GTAA can now claim they've "done all that they could" but now its up to those meanies in the Federal Government to lower its rent so that they can pass on the savings to the airlines.

Yeah right  Yeah sure

If AC and the other airlines don't correspondingly lower their fares from YYZ, by the amount they will save as a result of the GTAA lowering its fees, what makes anyone think that the GTAA will significantly lower its fees even if the Feds lower or eliminate the rent it charges. I don't doubt that the GTAA will lower its fees if the rent is reduced/eliminated, but I don't see any real relief for passengers. Some other airlines may begin operations to YYZ and AC and the other airlines already there may increase their YYZ ops (whilst increasing their profits), but the flying passengers shouldn't be expecting any significant savings. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the airlines will lower fares by $20 or so as a promotion when and if the rents are lowered, but I'm also sure that the airlines will try to jack them up as quickly as possible also. The only real beneficiaries of any rent reductions will be the GTAA and the airlines who will see their bottom lines increasing.
Dreaming of the day I can work for an airline
 
bravogolf
Posts: 359
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:18 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:52 pm

Seeing the article only gives a percentage decrease, what are the current rates? How high is high?
 
swissy
Posts: 1481
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:12 pm

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:07 pm

HanginOut,

Well spoken right on the  dollarsign   dollarsign  ......

Lowering the fees will impact the "local" airlines far more than a airline which has one flight a day lets say for a 767 or 330.

Quoting BravoGolf (Reply 15):
Seeing the article only gives a percentage decrease, what are the current rates? How high is high?

Still as high as GTAAs ego..... they published the percentage because it sound a lot better than lets say 120  dollarsign  for a flight.... (just a example)

But for us traveling folks ....... nothing will change.

Cheers,
 
AF340
Posts: 2267
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:57 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting CayMan (Thread starter):
It's nice to see a step in right direction for YYZ, even if a small one. At least the fees and costs are slowly moving down and not increasing

It is nice to see, every time I go on the GTAA website I have to click that screen about the taxes and whatnot.

Quoting CayMan (Thread starter):
I have always been amazed, with the importance of a major airport to a region, and the ever tighter race for votes in Greater Toronto, why one of the two credible Canadian federal parties has not seized this issue and come up with a proposal to do something about it. Admittedly, it is not an issue that gets a ton of airplay but just explain to a typical GTA resident how the feds jam Toronto for airport rents and they quickly get interested.

Haven't you noticed regular people really don't care about aviation? Okay, this might lower airfares, but people will still blame Air Canada because Canadians just don't seem to understand the correlation between airlines, airports, and the government. I bet you more than half of the non-aviation population of Toronto don't even know what the GTAA is. Most Canadians just like to hate Air Canada even though AC has made tremendous strides forward in the last couple years.

Just my  twocents 

AF340
 
cayman
Posts: 739
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 2:28 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:23 pm

Quoting AF340 (Reply 17):
Haven't you noticed regular people really don't care about aviation? Okay, this might lower airfares, but people will still blame Air Canada because Canadians just don't seem to understand the correlation between airlines, airports, and the government. I bet you more than half of the non-aviation population of Toronto don't even know what the GTAA is. Most Canadians just like to hate Air Canada even though AC has made tremendous strides forward in the last couple years.

Excellent point, and it drives me nuts too! OK I realize the vast majority will never care as most of as a.netters do about commercial aviation, aircraft, news etc and that's fine it's not everyone's cup of tea.

But from a purely economic standpoint a major hub airport is a critically important economic engine, not just in the jobs it directly creates but in the economic activity it spurs by connecting that centre with the country, continent, world. Toronto has an incredible degree of direct flight options, nationally, trans-border and internationally it would be one of very top airports in N America for destinations served. And that is DESPITE this horrible cost structure.

In addition to economic benefits I think the large immigrant community in Greater Toronto take advantage of wide flight options for flights, airlines.

So your point is an excellent one and sadly true. So many people do not realize the economic, geographical, cultural importance of a major vibrant airport, it's not all just about what a flight costs. That's why there is so much apathy about this airport rent issue. One of those things that might only get attention if taken away. if airlines started bailing on YYZ en masse people might notice more. As it is YYZ shows strong growth and many new airlines despite these costs. So it goes unnoticed.

It's those of us for a passion in aviation that take notice.

Imagine if you will if the feds somehow had the ability to charge the Leafs rent at 160% of the NHL league average for use of their facilities and the resulting disadvantage they would face. Good golly the masses would be marching up Yonge St turning over cars.

I know we are not supposed to talk pure rumor but some posters above have said there is chatter about more airlines to YYZ. I know Ethiopian has stated they want to start services. I guess so much depends on bi-laterals, not costs. But out of curiosity who has heard what about possible new airlines? And I realize it may be utter sepcualtion/gossip but it's interesting nonetheless.
 
Cruiser
Posts: 920
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:08 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:15 pm

Quoting CayMan (Reply 18):
I know Ethiopian has stated they want to start services. I guess so much depends on bi-laterals, not costs. But out of curiosity who has heard what about possible new airlines? And I realize it may be utter sepcualtion/gossip but it's interesting nonetheless.

-TAP Portugal
-Emirates (to 1x Daily when they can get the rights)
-Virgin Atlantic
-Jet Blue


Those are the ones that I am aware of, although there may be others.
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
pnwtraveler
Posts: 1064
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:12 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:44 pm

Isn't one of the airlines starting service from Iceland to Toronto as well. There are rumours of other Pacific airlines such as Qantas through LAX to compete with AC through YVR (I think this one is a little far fetched because I don't see enough yield for both). EVA Air Cargo and Passenger. SIA has been mentioned now that Emirates is coming (but again I don't see this as very immanent). And THAI to Bankok (I think wishful thinking). Some of the Russian airlines are another possibility.
 
sebring
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:27 pm

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 19):
-TAP Portugal
-Emirates (to 1x Daily when they can get the rights)
-Virgin Atlantic
-Jet Blue

JetBlue - a rumor which as of yet has no substance. They seem more interested in Bogota which is a longer route, even from Fort Lauderdale or Orlando.

Virgin - Talk, talk, talk. There is so much Toronto/Hamilton - UK service that I see this as a long stretch.

Emirates - Certainly their intention, but bilateral constraints won't be removed soon.

QF via LAX would require a major change in the bilateral with Australia.

I don't think such a small decrease in fees impresses anyone. Those airlines that are going to come to Toronto will do so in spite of the fees. And there were be several not on this list. Think new or recently added Star Alliance members for one, like TAP or Turkish. Think Chinese carriers whose government has apportionned rights for the first China-Toronto nonstops (2009, I believe). Think QR, which needs a bilateral but at least won't have to split its rights like EK and EY when it gets in.

And think above all what existing YYZ players will do in terms of growth. Too much emphasis is put on new airlines because some of you are spotters. The real play in YYZ will be from existing players. Watch when a Canada-EU open skies deal is done.
 
AF340
Posts: 2267
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:57 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:57 pm

Quoting CayMan (Reply 18):
Imagine if you will if the feds somehow had the ability to charge the Leafs rent at 160% of the NHL league average for use of their facilities and the resulting disadvantage they would face. Good golly the masses would be marching up Yonge St turning over cars.

Hahahahahaha  laughing  laughing  laughing 

Very True! Great Analogy!

Quoting CayMan (Reply 18):
But from a purely economic standpoint a major hub airport is a critically important economic engine, not just in the jobs it directly creates but in the economic activity it spurs by connecting that centre with the country, continent, world. Toronto has an incredible degree of direct flight options, nationally, trans-border and internationally it would be one of very top airports in N America for destinations served.

Too many times I have to try and convince people that YYZ is a great airport. Sure the price is high but, as you said, we have so many destinations. I can't wait to see how many more airlines will pop up when the fees go down.


AF340
 
lorgem1
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 4:20 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:16 am

Hooray for the drop in rates!! However it will not do a darn thing for us travellers. The airlines still have a captured market. AC continues to make tons of cash and so to WS. When I fly of late, I do it from Buffalo - the savings are to enormous to ignore, and it only takes me 1.5hrs to get there. Do you know most hotels/motels close to the BUF airport offer special rates including parking to Canadians travelling in the US. Its the same with most other goods (cars, magazines, electronic equipment and machinery) purchased here or from the US, its cheaper to get it from down there! no competition!!!
 
AF340
Posts: 2267
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:57 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:30 am

Quoting Lorgem1 (Reply 23):
Its the same with most other goods (cars, magazines, electronic equipment and machinery) purchased here or from the US, its cheaper to get it from down there! no competition!!!

Especially with our dollar being worth more than theirs Smile


AF340
 
charlipr
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:12 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting AF340 (Reply 24):
Especially with our dollar being worth more than theirs

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
 
HanginOut
Posts: 521
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 3:24 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:53 pm

Quoting Sebring (Reply 21):
The real play in YYZ will be from existing players. Watch when a Canada-EU open skies deal is done.

Sebring's right on the money, once an open skies deal is done watch what AC and their Star partners get up to. That said, I think that if there was a trilateral Canada-US-EU open skies deal that you would really see something happen, especially if the US, Canada and the EU were to lift their "outdated" (a nice euphemism for silly) rules on foreign ownership and allow some transatlantic mergers to take place.
Dreaming of the day I can work for an airline
 
RP TPA
Posts: 510
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 1999 9:40 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 26):
Sebring's right on the money, once an open skies deal is done watch what AC and their Star partners get up to.

Explain, please. What will AC do, and what will the non *A airlines counter with?
 
HanginOut
Posts: 521
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 3:24 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:13 pm

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 27):
Explain, please. What will AC do, and what will the non *A airlines counter with?

You will see AC increase its operations to Europe, much in the way their operations to the US increased after the last air agreement between Canada and the US. You will also see a lot more Star hub to hub flying (not necessarily by AC but by other Star carriers), as well as more point to point flights between Canada and Europe much like the Edmonton to LHR flights. You will probably also see more joint ventures created between AC and other Star partners where it will be full sharing of revenues on flights, much the way AC and LH currently operate. Will it be a dramatic expansion of operations for AC to Europe - no, but you will see an increase in AC's European operations, but the real expansion will be by other European Star partners (e.g. TAP). A lot also depends on the availability of slots at certain airports (e.g. LHR and FRA).

As for what the non Star airlines will counter with, since OW and Sky lack a Canadian partner (I do expect WestJet to join one of the alliances, most likely OW since Cathay has been involved in talks with them), I would expect them to increase their operations to Canada, especially for markets outside of YYZ and YUL. For example, I would expect AF to start flights to YVR and YYC (maybe even YEG). I also see other carriers starting operations from cities that they haven't operated from (much like the European airlines will begin with the US). An example could be AF operating LHR to Canada (but due to the limited slot availability I would see the focus being on LHR ops to the US for the near to medium future). I wouldn't be shocked if you see some second tier level airlines trying to cash in. One hypothetical I would throw out would be Olympic operating flights from Germany to Canada.

I think that the possibilities are endless, but at the end of the day it will all depend on whether the airlines think that they can make money on Canada-EU operations, especially when there could be bigger fish to fry in the US and other parts of the world (Asia, the mid-East, etc.) So I do expect Canada-EU air traffic to increase, but believe it will mainly be incremental growth, other than a brief period where there will be a flurry of announcements for increased flights after an open skies deal is reached.

I also expect Air Transat to ramp up their European operations as well, and an open skies treaty with the EU could also be the catalyst for WestJet to begin its long rumoured international operations.
Dreaming of the day I can work for an airline
 
Cruiser
Posts: 920
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:08 am

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 28):
(I do expect WestJet to join one of the alliances, most likely OW since Cathay has been involved in talks with them)

WestJet has a lot of work to do on their reservation system first. Sorry, let me rephrase...they need to implement a new one which would probably take them about two years before they could join any alliance.

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
EnviroTO
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:11 pm

RE: YYZ Cutting Terminal And Landing Fees Jan 1

Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:41 am

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 29):
WestJet has a lot of work to do on their reservation system first. Sorry, let me rephrase...they need to implement a new one which would probably take them about two years before they could join any alliance.

They also need something to give frequent flyers beyond the same air miles you get buying cheese at the grocery store. The whole idea of frequent flyer programs is to reward frequent fliers with more than mere points earned through general retail can buy such as lounge membership, upgrades, special lines for check-in, etc. They aren't going to be able to get loyalty based on simple points when frequent fliers flying weekly have no greater benefits than the frequent grocery buyer and gas station user. Since they have no first class, no lounge, and no tiered membership I can't see them being a oneworld member at this time. They could easily become a major codeshare partner for oneworld members though.