NYC777
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787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:51 pm

Looks like Boeing has to sharpen their pencils if they want this one:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...=conews&tkr=BA:US&sid=aYDrYaHJeGM0
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captainsimon
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:02 pm

I'm sure this engine has a between 53,000 - 75,000 LBS of thrust, surely this should be enough?
 
9V-SPJ
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:04 pm

So is Tim Clark saying, that he, a CEO of an airline, mores much more about the thrust requirements of an aircraft than the manufacturer does?

9V-SPJ
 
NYC777
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:04 pm

Quoting Captainsimon (Reply 1):
I'm sure this engine has a between 53,000 - 75,000 LBS of thrust, surely this should be enough?

They might want higher performance levels since they're flying out of Dubai with the hot dry air around there.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
khobar
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Ord

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:06 pm

I don't think EK is all that serious about the 787. If they were, they would enter into a similar agreement airlines have for the A350 - sign up for the plane now with an out if the plane fails to meet their requirements. Boeing doesn't seem to be offering this kind of deal, indicating to me how they view EK's intentions. IMO.
 
columba
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:09 pm

"''It needs more thrust,'' Clark said in the interview in Cannes, southern France. '"

Might that be Toulouse where he was giving that interview ?
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
NYC777
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:14 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 5):
Might that be Toulouse where he was giving that interview ?

No he was in Cannes.
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redflyer
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:16 pm

While it would be a bad business move, I think Boeing should cede this order to Airbus and not push the extremes of their development resources in order to cater to the needs of one carrier. Besides, just like the 748i is intended to pressure Airbus' margins, rather than increase Boeing's, letting Airbus' next new project, the A350, be dominated by a single Middle East carrier just like the A380 was/is puts Airbus at considerable risk. Heck, if Airbus wins this order they might as well change their name to EKBus (or even ClarkBus).
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justloveplanes
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:18 pm

Boeing should just give this one to Airbus. Airbus looks to be designing the A350 to tailor fit EK, and Boeing won't be able to match that focus - they have a broader committment to the market. Might do them good to keep Airbus on its toes and pretend its serious.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:18 pm

This might actually be good news for Boeing, in that he might feel 560,000lbs MTOW is good enough if he can ensure that the GE engines can lift that off a DXB 365-days a year...

I expect GE can meet the challenge, as will RR with the Trent 1000...
 
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clickhappy
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Ord

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:30 pm

More of the same from Mr Clark.

Make it just a bit lighter, or longer, or more capacity, or more range and we might buy it.

Sign for 50 + 50 and we can build to order.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:35 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 10):
More of the same from Mr Clark...Make it just a bit lighter, or longer, or more capacity, or more range and we might buy it.

He's either laying some PR groundwork to explain why he buys 50-100 A350's next month or, since he'll be buying more then 50-100 planes in this class, he's telling Boeing and GE what they have to do to win the next 50-100 planes in that class he orders after the initial A350 order.
 
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zeke
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:36 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 3):
They might want higher performance levels since they're flying out of Dubai with the hot dry air around there.

I think that is the driving factor, more thrust, leaves more margin for hot and high performance.

Interesting to see the comment from GE

"We're gratified Emirates is interested in the GEnx,'' said Rick Kennedy, a spokesman for Fairfield, Connecticut- based GE. ''At this juncture it's premature, because the 787- 10 hasn't been formally offered to airlines.''

Kinda makes puts to rest a lot of scuttlebutt on here about 787-10 and 787-11 ...

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 7):
Heck, if Airbus wins this order they might as well change their name to EKBus (or even ClarkBus).

Boeing have had their fair share of niche customers with products, the 764 and 748i are a classic examples, are you going to come up with names from them as well ? e.g. WeinerJet, Jumbokraut, BuchholzJet, 748-Interthansa ?

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 10):
Sign for 50 + 50 and we can build to order.

Stay here or take away !!  Wink
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PADSpot
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:39 pm

Quoting 9V-SPJ (Reply 2):
Tim Clark saying, that he, a CEO of an airline, mores much more about the thrust requirements of an aircraft than the manufacturer does?

Tim Clark actually being an Arabic synonym for omniscient, omnipotent or omnipresent. For short: GOD. Close rivaled by SUH and MOL.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:43 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 12):
"We're gratified Emirates is interested in the GEnx,'' said Rick Kennedy, a spokesman for Fairfield, Connecticut- based GE. ''At this juncture it's premature, because the 787- 10 hasn't been formally offered to airlines.''

Kinda makes puts to rest a lot of scuttlebutt on here about 787-10 and 787-11 ...

Boeing says the 787-10, at least, will happen, so they're at least shopping it.

After all, how would Clark not know the thrust wasn't sufficient if Boeing hadn't told them the figure?  Wink
 
kaneporta1
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:49 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
After all, how would Clark not know the thrust wasn't sufficient if Boeing hadn't told them the figure?

I think Clark is tired of saying "Bigger MTOW" so he just gave it a different spin this time...
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Ken777
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:50 pm

Why GE? Why not RR?

Could it be that he is trying to help the 350-1000 get a GE engine via an indirect route?
 
nycbjr
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:56 pm

So this is a silly question, and no one take offense to this.. but how many airplanes does a airline in a country of less than 4 million inhabitants really need?

just curious.. again no one take offense or jump on me.

For me I do hope Boeing launched a HGW 787, but does it make sense? Only time and Boeing knows..

Cheers
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ScottB
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:06 pm

Quote:
Rolls-Royce Group Plc offers engines for both the A350 and 787 and has a more powerful version that may suit Emirates' requirements, Clark said. Still, the CEO said he would prefer to have a choice.

So, let me see if I've got this right. Tim Clark is saying that Emirates would choose to order the A350XWB-900, a model where the current engine choice is Rolls-Royce or Rolls-Royce, because he might not have a choice between GE & Rolls-Royce on the still-undefined 787-10?  rotfl 
 
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lightsaber
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:28 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 12):
"We're gratified Emirates is interested in the GEnx,'' said Rick Kennedy, a spokesman for Fairfield, Connecticut- based GE. ''At this juncture it's premature, because the 787- 10 hasn't been formally offered to airlines.''

Kinda makes puts to rest a lot of scuttlebutt on here about 787-10 and 787-11 ...

It also makes a point to GE that to be on the 787-10 (if it happens) they need more thrust. If EK is willing to be the launch customer, Boeing would be silly not to look into the business case.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 18):
So, let me see if I've got this right. Tim Clark is saying that Emirates would choose to order the A350XWB-900, a model where the current engine choice is Rolls-Royce or Rolls-Royce, because he might not have a choice between GE & Rolls-Royce on the still-undefined 787-10?

That would be EK negotiation at its finest. If EK can get GE to commit, then they can bid the A350 vs. the 787 and on the 787 bid RR vs. GE. It forces RR to lower their price on the A350 and 787. So from a negotiating/CASM standpoint, it makes all the sense in the world.

Lightsaber
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:35 pm

Quoting Nycbjr (Reply 17):
So this is a silly question, and no one take offense to this.. but how many airplanes does a airline in a country of less than 4 million inhabitants really need?

just curious.. again no one take offense or jump on me.

Its important to remember that if they chose 100 A350's [for example], these aircraft would be replacing their existing A330, A340 and 777 fleets in the long term, so the overall fleet expansion would not be very big.
 
flysherwood
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:44 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 12):
Boeing have had their fair share of niche customers with products, the 764 and 748i are a classic examples, are you going to come up with names from them as well ?

So, are you saying that the A380 and A350 are only niche players?  Wink
 
RIX
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:49 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 12):
Kinda makes puts to rest a lot of scuttlebutt on here about 787-10 and 787-11

especially after BA mentioned 787-10 in official press-release...
 
BrianDromey
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:09 pm

Quoting Nycbjr (Reply 17):
So this is a silly question, and no one take offense to this.. but how many airplanes does a airline in a country of less than 4 million inhabitants really need?

You've not been to Dubai, have you?

While I dont like the country itself (awful desert climate, tacky 'archirecture', etc) DXB itself is a fantastically placed hub for Europe/US East Coast to Asia/Oceana, EK has ambitious aims to connect pretty much everywhere, to everywhere via DXB, with a very good product and compeditive fares.

That said, if the global economy does go belly up, EK might be parking a lot of ots fleet at Jebel Ali (JXB)!
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:15 pm

Quoting Nycbjr (Reply 17):
So this is a silly question, and no one take offense to this.. but how many airplanes does a airline in a country of less than 4 million inhabitants really need?

Because a heck of a lot more then 4 million people use that airline...

EK serves a significantly larger customer base then just the Emirates themselves.
 
AirbusA6
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:32 pm

While acknowledging that the GEnX is a fine engine, I wonder if GE misjudged the design of the original GEnX slightly, as it does appear to the outsider that they are struggling to increase thrust above 75k, and as a result can't easily power the A350 or 7810? Maybe the need for the lower powered 783 has compromised the stretchability at the upper end too much?

EK want engine competition, at the moment GE seem to be making it too easy for RR to win...

Other airlines want a heavy 7810 too, such as QF - if GE can't provide the required power then could easily lose the order to RR (either on the 787 or A350)
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keesje
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:51 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 25):
While acknowledging that the GEnX is a fine engine, I wonder if GE misjudged the design of the original GEnX slightly, as it does appear to the outsider that they are struggling to increase thrust above 75k, and as a result can't easily power the A350 or 7810?

I think most 787 will not been used on flights longer then 10 hrs. So its optimized for that segment and aircraft with capasity < 300 seats.

I think :
- Boeing & GE figured out there is where most airframes and engines will be sold, probably rightfully
- Boeing & GE thought that the GE90 / 777 familiy will hold out until at least 2015, proving overoptimistic

Apart from that Clark probably also wants a GE option for the A350XWB. So putting pressure on Boeing and GE works both ways.
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Bongodog1964
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:03 pm

Quoting Nycbjr (Reply 17):
So this is a silly question, and no one take offense to this.. but how many airplanes does a airline in a country of less than 4 million inhabitants really need?

just curious.. again no one take offense or jump on me.

This is a question I have asked myself on quite a few occasions. Dubai is certainly a hot spot for tourism and International travel at present; but what happens when the tourists tire of it and move on somewhere else ?
In addition, when we reach the stage that airliners can do Western Europe - Australia non stop, where will Dubai fit into the equation ?
There may well come a time that EK has to scale back its deliveries, at that stage things will not look quite so rosy in Seattle & Toulouse.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:36 pm

I think if he really wanted the 787 he could have worked with Boeing very closely on 787-10 specs and had it done by now.
EK will sign a large A350 order next month IMO. He's just spewing hot air for a better deal until then.
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redflyer
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:53 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 12):
Boeing have had their fair share of niche customers with products, the 764 and 748i are a classic examples, are you going to come up with names from them as well ? e.g. WeinerJet, Jumbokraut, BuchholzJet, 748-Interthansa ?

Boeing didn't sink billions into those products, which are in themselves niche. Boeing also didn't bank the fortunes of the company on them nor tout them as the future of commercial aviation. So DL/CO are the only customers for the 764 and LH is the only one for the 748i. Do you think Boeing is hurting as a result? I'd like to see what would happen if the fortunes of EK suddenly go south. You'd hear a big sucking wind coming out of Toulouse.
My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:25 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 25):
While acknowledging that the GEnX is a fine engine, I wonder if GE misjudged the design of the original GEnX slightly, as it does appear to the outsider that they are struggling to increase thrust above 75k, and as a result can't easily power the A350 or 7810?

When GE designed the GEnx, there was no airframe planned that required more then 75,000lbs of thrust.

If Airbus had countered with the A350XWB in 2004 instead of a series of planes with MTOWs scores of thousands of pounds lighter, it is likely GE would have designed the GEnx with more thrust, likely leveraging the GE90 more.
 
Rbgso
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:34 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 28):
I think if he really wanted the 787 he could have worked with Boeing very closely on 787-10 specs and had it done by now.

Ah, but once he signs, he won't have the aviation press hanging on his every word and the manufacturers eating out of his hand. I don't think he could survivie not being in the spotlight.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:52 pm

Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 8):
Boeing should just give this one to Airbus. Airbus looks to be designing the A350 to tailor fit EK,

I agree, Boeing has more to worry about than trying to sell 100 B-787s to an airline that has 48 A-380s on order. Give this to the A-350-900 and let Airbus play Clark's games. Let him have an all Airbus airline with B-747-8F freighters.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 10):
More of the same from Mr Clark.

Make it just a bit lighter, or longer, or more capacity, or more range and we might buy it.

Not add to global warming and burn no fuel.  banghead 
 
aerokiwi
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:29 pm

Could the demands for GE be linked to their 748i/F order? Commonality between the two in the engine department would probably be desirable (and before anyone jumps down my throat, I know that commonality isn't everything - but it is something  Smile )
 
EI321
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:41 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 32):
Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 8):
Boeing should just give this one to Airbus. Airbus looks to be designing the A350 to tailor fit EK,

I agree, Boeing has more to worry about than trying to sell 100 B-787s to an airline that has 48 A-380s on order.

Let's not be coy about this. Emirates is the worlds biggest 777 customer, and its the airline that has been the definitive '787-10 launch customer' from day 1. Have you been reading a.net over the last few years? Can you tell me which airlines livery was depicted on the very first images and article of the 787-10 when it was initially mooted by Flight International - several years ago?

Quoting Stitch (Reply 30):
If Airbus had countered with the A350XWB in 2004 instead of a series of planes with MTOWs scores of thousands of pounds lighter, it is likely GE would have designed the GEnx with more thrust, likely leveraging the GE90 more.

Probably, but the relationship between Boeing and GE is extremely complex and IMO the GE/Boeing deal on the GE90/777L/777W compromises the scope for development of the GEnx/787HGW. And GE wont want to scuttle their 77W cash cow by going with the A350. Its a simple business decision really.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 28):
I think if he really wanted the 787 he could have worked with Boeing very closely on 787-10 specs and had it done by now.

I believe that the same also applies to the 747-8I

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 28):
EK will sign a large A350 order next month IMO. He's just spewing hot air for a better deal until then.

I believe you are correct. The 787 is just not up to the job of replacing Emirates A330/A340/772/773 fleet without major developments. With ongoing delays, the possibility of launching further varients of the 787 will have to stay on ice for the time being.
 
txkf2010
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:46 pm

Here's my question, it maybe be a silly question but all this talk about GE n RR, what the hell happened to PW?
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:53 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 34):
Probably, but the relationship between Boeing and GE is extremely complex and IMO the GE/Boeing deal on the GE90/777L/777W compromises the scope for development of the GEnx/787HGW.

I refuse to believe that Boeing and GE are so myopic that they believe the 777 can compete head to head against the A350 and win RFPs.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 34):
And GE wont want to scuttle their 77W cash cow by going with the A350. Its a simple business decision really.

GE has at least a decade of 77E, 77L and 77W sales and deliveries. And then there is the 77F.

They can easily afford to commit to A350 and 787HGW power now without prematurely killing the market for the 777.
 
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zeke
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:55 pm

Quoting TXKF2010 (Reply 35):
what the hell happened to PW?

They make props dont they ?
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gigneil
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:04 pm

Quoting Nycbjr (Reply 17):
So this is a silly question, and no one take offense to this.. but how many airplanes does a airline in a country of less than 4 million inhabitants really need?



Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 27):
This is a question I have asked myself on quite a few occasions. Dubai is certainly a hot spot for tourism and International travel at present; but what happens when the tourists tire of it and move on somewhere else ?

Do you also ask the same about Singapore?

NS
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:14 pm

Quoting TXKF2010 (Reply 35):
Here's my question, it maybe be a silly question but all this talk about GE n RR, what the hell happened to PW?

They make mostly military engines now, through the Geared-TurboFan might very well bring them back to the A320RS and 737RS market in a big way if successful.
 
iwok
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:18 pm

Quoting 9V-SPJ (Reply 2):
So is Tim Clark saying, that he, a CEO of an airline, mores much more about the thrust requirements of an aircraft than the manufacturer does?

This might be an undercover trick to make GE upsize the GENX under the pretenses of a 787 order, and then switch it out to a 350 order and voila: GENX works for the high TOW 350... Too crafty?

-iwok
 
AFGMEL
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting Nycbjr (Reply 17):
So this is a silly question, and no one take offense to this.. but how many airplanes does a airline in a country of less than 4 million inhabitants really need?

The middle east is roughly in the centre of the world population-wise. Africa, Asia and Europe. Perfect place for a hub. I am yet to fly EK but I doubt that the majority of pax would be locals. Happy to be wrong.

My question is, now that EK is so big, what chance have QR, GF, EY etc have of doing the same?
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vv701
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:19 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 5):
"''It needs more thrust,'' Clark said in the interview in Cannes, southern France. '"

Might that be Toulouse where he was giving that interview ?

Toulouse is in Southwest France. Cannes is in Southeast France.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):
Why GE? Why not RR?

Could it be that he is trying to help the 350-1000 get a GE engine via an indirect route?

What the Bloomberg article says is:

"Rolls Royce Group plc offers engines for both the A350 and 787 and has a more powerful version that may suit Emirate's requirements Clark said. Still the CEO said he would prefer to have a choice. GE and Airbus haven't reached an engine supplier agreement."

Now this is not a clearly written piece of prose. For a start it claims to quote Clark but does not use quote marks to indicate what he actually said. But it is very reasonable to interpret that Clark's comments are aimed at both GE - give us a more powerful engine - and Airbus - give us a choice of engines. But it could equally be just the first or just the second.

Quoting Nycbjr (Reply 17):
So this is a silly question, and no one take offense to this.. but how many airplanes does a airline in a country of less than 4 million inhabitants really need?

Consider a resident of Newcastle in England wanting to fly to Perth in Australia. His or her choice could be EK NCL-DXB-PER with one change of aircraft or BA/QF NCL-LHR-SIN-SYD-PER with two changes and a stop-over or, hopefully, NCL-LHR-SIN-PER with just two changes. Which would you pick?

Quoting Keesje (Reply 26):
I think most 787 will not been used on flights longer then 10 hrs.

Do you mean that you think that most 787s will never be used on flights longer than 10 hours or that you think that most 787 flights will last under 10 hours? The difference is very significant. In an airline wants to fly, say just one over-ten hour route from, say, fifteen 787 routes then it may need all its aircraft to be suitable for use on ten-hour-plus flights.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 27):
Dubai is certainly a hot spot for tourism and International travel at present; but what happens when the tourists tire of it and move on somewhere else ?

See above. Most EK passengers flying long haul into DXB fly out of DXB on another long haul flight within hours of their arrival. Growth at DXB is propelled by the same considerations that created an international hub at LHR. British Sunday newspapers regularly carry advertisements for EK London to Cape Town and London to Auckland flights with never a mention of Dubai.
 
jacobin777
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 12):
because the 787- 10 hasn't been formally offered to airlines.''

Kinda makes puts to rest a lot of scuttlebutt on here about 787-10 and 787-11 ...

..besides A.net, no one else has talked about the B787-11 and Boeing have stated in the press the B787-10 is a matter of "when" and not "if".....

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 15):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
After all, how would Clark not know the thrust wasn't sufficient if Boeing hadn't told them the figure?

I think Clark is tired of saying "Bigger MTOW" so he just gave it a different spin this time...

LoL!

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 27):
This is a question I have asked myself on quite a few occasions. Dubai is certainly a hot spot for tourism and International travel at present; but what happens when the tourists tire of it and move on somewhere else ?
In addition, when we reach the stage that airliners can do Western Europe - Australia non stop, where will Dubai fit into the equation ?

.....while it does play a large part in the "Master Plan" of Dubai, tourism isn't all what Dubai is attempting to be. With a tax-free zone (just ask Halliburton that, as they plan on moving Corporate HQ out of Texas and to Dubai) as well as investments in technology, etc. Dubai is also attempting to be the commercial hub of the Middle East.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 27):
There may well come a time that EK has to scale back its deliveries, at that stage things will not look quite so rosy in Seattle & Toulouse.

....I wouldn't be surprise if EK has these cancellation clauses with both Airbus and Boeing...

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 29):
I'd like to see what would happen if the fortunes of EK suddenly go south. You'd hear a big sucking wind coming out of Toulouse.

....it would affect Boeing also however....not as much as Airbus though...

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 32):
has 48 A-380s on order.

...50+ on order.... Wink

Quoting EI321 (Reply 34):
Let's not be coy about this. Emirates is the worlds biggest 777 customer,

...while your statement is certainly correct, it would certainly affect Airbus more (given the sheer magnitude of their A380 order)....especially if they purchase the A350....
"Up the Irons!"
 
baroque
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:39 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 34):
Probably, but the relationship between Boeing and GE is extremely complex and IMO the GE/Boeing deal on the GE90/777L/777W compromises the scope for development of the GEnx/787HGW. And GE wont want to scuttle their 77W cash cow by going with the A350. Its a simple business decision really.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 36):
I refuse to believe that Boeing and GE are so myopic that they believe the 777 can compete head to head against the A350 and win RFPs.

You would think that Stitch's view had to be correct, but it does appear that there is some hidden number above which GE do not seem to wish to go to preserve their 77W turf. Bearing mind mind how long it is taking the "obsolete" 330 to wind down, GE might be taking a longer term view on how long before 77W orders start to hurt. In the meantime, the glass ceiling for newer engines might remain to keep the private turf from being disturbed. Presumably a GE engine designed in a couple of years time is going to make this generation of engines look old hat. That seemed to be the Airbus message about using current GE engines on the 350.
 
astuteman
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:20 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 44):
You would think that Stitch's view had to be correct, but it does appear that there is some hidden number above which GE do not seem to wish to go to preserve their 77W turf

The difficulty, really, if that's the case, is that the "glass ceiling" could be as low as 85 000 lb, as its clearly possible to challenge GE90-115 engined aircraft (77W) with 95 000 lb thrust engines as technology moves on.

That said, 85 000lb covers the large majority of the market, and the 773ER/772LR will be selling for a good time yet (presumably to 2015 and beyond in reasonable numbers, if the A330 is any guide..)

Regards
 
Carls
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:22 am

RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:18 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 32):
agree, Boeing has more to worry about than trying to sell 100 B-787s

Yes. you are rigth. They need "urgent" to find more fasteners.....I could not resist.
 
AirbusA6
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:28 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 30):
When GE designed the GEnx, there was no airframe planned that required more then 75,000lbs of thrust.

If Airbus had countered with the A350XWB in 2004 instead of a series of planes with MTOWs scores of thousands of pounds lighter, it is likely GE would have designed the GEnx with more thrust, likely leveraging the GE90 more.

True at the time, but planes always grow. and require more thrust.

Compare the thrust requirements of a 739ER with a 737 Classic, a 763ER with an early 762 model, a 77W with a 772A...

That there would be a 7810 at some point is hardly a shock or unpredictable! Similarly, even if the A350 had been a warmed over A330, it would require quite a thrust uplift to challenge the 772ER.
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:20 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 47):
True at the time, but planes always grow. and require more thrust.

Yes, but the only planned response to the 777 was the A345E and A346E, both of which were only going to have improved Trent 500 power, so GE was shut out of that market.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 47):
That there would be a 7810 at some point is hardly a shock or unpredictable! Similarly, even if the A350 had been a warmed over A330, it would require quite a thrust uplift to challenge the 772ER.

GE was already considering the GEnx for the "A330NG" (which became the original A350) and that plane wasn't going to need more then 75,000lbs, though Airbus was mumbling about an A350-1000 model that would compete with the 777-200ER. However, like the 787-10 when the 787 was originally launched, it was just "a possibility" and, like the "real" 787-10, might very well have not required a substantial MTOW boost which would have required a substantial thrust boost.

There was no way they could do a model that would have competed with the 77L and 77W - the same issue facing the "787LGW" now - so the need to increase thrust tens of thousands of pounds was never expected, nor planned for. RR responded with an all-new engine, but the cancellation of A345E/A346E program and the draw-down of the A345/A346 meant that the Trent 500's RoI was not going to get much better, so that program was effectively over and RR has no choice but to take the hit and hope the newer Trents will return a better RoI.

On the flip-side, GE is looking at maybe a thousand additional GE90-series sales, which they must have to help the RoI of the GE90 program, as well. So I can understand them not wanting to prematurely kill the program, and I also understand them not wanting to discount even more on those thousand GE90s they will sell because they have "something better" around the corner to make the 787HGW and A350 "even better".

But the fact is, they need to look beyond those thousand sales in the short-term, and those many thousand sales in the long-term. And I believe they are. They're likely playing coy for the same reasons Boeing is - to see what RR comes up with. GE has better cruise efficiency, but RR has better climb efficiency. I expect NH's 787-3 fleet will be more efficient then JL's because the NH has Trent 1000s. Those airlines that will want the 787-10 as a 772 and A333 replacement might favor the Trent option due to the lower-range missions those plane would likely fly. GE will want to try and match the Trent's climb efficiency while extending their own cruise efficiency advantage, to offer and engine that appeals to all.
 
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Revelation
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RE: 787 Needs More Power From GE Engine For EK Order

Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:59 pm

Quoting 9V-SPJ (Reply 2):
So is Tim Clark saying, that he, a CEO of an airline, mores much more about the thrust requirements of an aircraft than the manufacturer does?



Quoting Columba (Reply 5):
"''It needs more thrust,'' Clark said in the interview in Cannes, southern France.

TC: Dammit, GE, I need more power!
GE: Cap'n, I'm givin you all she's got. She cannae take much more of this!


Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 19):
If EK is willing to be the launch customer, Boeing would be silly not to look into the business case.

Boeing has said it's a matter of when instead of if for the -10. Right now, I imagine the "when" just got shifted out to the right six months like everything else.
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