RedChili
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NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:41 am

Flightglobal confirms that All Nippon is in preliminary talks with Airbus about the A380. See

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ptimistic-of-all-nippon-order.html

Quote:
"We are studying the A380 and we do talk to Airbus But (an order for the A380) is not a decision we would arrive at quickly."

However, if an A380 order was placed, ANA says that the aircraft would probably be used to high-traffic, long-haul destinations such as Frankfurt and New York.

ANA rules out replacing the 744D's with the A380 as the new Haneda runway will give them more slots.
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columba
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:53 am

Good for Airbus but I am afraid of the first A380 painted with pokemon cartoons......
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
kappel
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:04 am

Should ANA buy the a380 it will a major victory for them, since ANA has effictively gone all Boeing (when the last a320's/a321's are replaced), and they had indicated they wanted to go with smaller aircraft. Who knows, it may persuade JAL to go with the a380 as well. I don't expect big numbers though...
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jimbo27L
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:21 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 2):
I don't expect big numbers though...

Any numbers would be good numbers for Airbus - important for them to keep some momentum rolling on this product. Getting the thing in service with SQ and acquiring in service performance data for the hard sell ahead along with the recent BA order, should hopefully cap off and consolidate a decent year after the delays.

The prospect of getting another carrier on board (especially JAL or ANA) hopefully signals blue skies ahead for 2008.
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:40 am

Not really new news isn't? It's good to see that ANA is officially stating that they are in talks with Airbus on the A380. I think they will eventually buy 6-7 of them, which is a low number, but nevertheless a good sign for Airbus.

Cheers!  wave 
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Danny
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:43 am

Yet another airline that had "no plans" to buy A380 and according to some A.netters would never ever buy it.
 
A388
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:49 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 5):
according to some A.netters would never ever buy it

It wasn't the a.netters who said that NH will not buy the A380 but the airline itself who publicly made this clear from the beginning!  Smile

A388
 
columba
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:20 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 6):
It wasn't the a.netters who said that NH will not buy the A380 but the airline itself who publicly made this clear from the beginning! Smile

No, they always said they will look at it and if they see the need for it they would buy it:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...oor-open-for-a380-despite-777.html
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
kappel
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:27 am

Quoting Jimbo27L (Reply 3):
Any numbers would be good numbers for Airbus - important for them to keep some momentum rolling on this product.

 checkmark  Agreed

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 4):
Not really new news isn't?

I actually disagree, since ANA said that they wouldn't buy it unless they saw a good business case for it.

Quoting Columba (Reply 7):
No, they always said they will look at it and if they see the need for it they would buy it:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles....html

So apparantly, they do see a good case for it now, which is good news for the a380 program.
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NZ107
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:28 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 1):
Good for Airbus but I am afraid of the first A380 painted with pokemon cartoons......

A whale one or Snorlax?  biggrin 

Can you just imagine the sheer number of passengers they will squeeze onto that thing..
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:29 am

FRA and LHR seem the most likely places to send it *if* they buy it - LH will be using theirs to NRT from FRA and I would imagine VS and BA will do likewise from LHR. If NH order it now, all three would probably get their A380s within a year of each other I suspect.

Nobody is going to cut flights, so I think this (if it happens) would be a very interesting experiment on what happens when you basically add about +/- 40% more seats onto a trunk citypair in a short space of time. Fares between LHR and NRT cannot come down much more than they are now and I think yields may suffer as a result. The A380 will not increase traffic on its own - the best way to increase growth and traffic on a route is to loosen pricing, which affects yields adversely. It may be that all concerned do not adjust pricing outside of current levels and there are no yield problems but this may not be possible if load factors drop significantly.

That being the case, it begs the question - if NH,BA, and VS all operate the A380 LHR-NRT and yields drop as pricing is adjusted to suit the extra capacity to make sure load factors do not drop, how will JL react? Tough one.

It is probably fair to say that the effects would be temporary and yields would probably increase over time, but if we assume that the extra capacity causes three months of sub-70% load factors and a drop in yields for all concerned, then how does the one carrier that uses the 77W instead react? 787-8 service to LHR for JL maybe?

Interesting.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/nipponbr/ANA_a380.jpg
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
columba
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:38 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 10):
FRA and LHR seem the most likely places to send it *if* they buy it - LH will be using theirs to NRT from FRA and I would imagine VS and BA will do likewise from LHR. If NH order it now, all three would probably get their A380s within a year of each other I suspect.

They explicitely mentioned FRA and New York in the article above. FRA makes sense because it is a Star Alliance hub.
I can see plenty of other destination NH could send their A380s, too, if they order it.
Tokyo will be one of the airports that will see the most A380s even if JL and NH don´t order it but the airlines that have will definitely send theirs there.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 9):
Can you just imagine the sheer number of passengers they will squeeze onto that thing..

Not that much since its is not used on domestic routes.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
slz396
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:43 am

Singapore Airlines' CEO said it very well only recently: the A380 is going to change aviation in Asia.

It is becoming increasingly clear the Superjumbo will completely re-shuffle the cards for all Asian airlines and those who don't operate it will quickly see their importance downgraded amongst all those Asian carriers which do operate it and can thus offer greater luxury to their premium customers, while at the same time offer unbeatable low prices to their economy class pax.

If ANA wants to maintain its status and safeguard its existence as an important long haul Asian airline, they better order some A380s soon and from all the comments it is clear it is no longer a question IF they will order the Superjumbo, but rather WHEN and HOW MANY.
 
Burkhard
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:45 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 2):
I don't expect big numbers though...

Every operator that has A380s on order ( maybe but EK ) and gets the profits from them they expect will order more of them in 5 years . If they do not get the profits, they either sell them fast or die.
 
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NZ107
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:52 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 11):
Not that much since its is not used on domestic routes.

Whoops sorry my bad should have read it more thoroughly. It'll be interesting what they throw into the mix. Seeing they made the 739ER into a business class jet, surely they won't turn their A380s the same way..
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
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Stitch
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:30 pm

If NH bites, I expect it to be the A380. However, as CHRISBA77ER has noted, yields are going to suffer if too much capacity is added. NH and JL might have gone to 77Ws for their long-haul fleet to help secure their own loads at a level that generates profit, and let the others beat on each other with the A380.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 12):
It is becoming increasingly clear the Superjumbo will completely re-shuffle the cards for all Asian airlines and those who don't operate it will quickly see their importance downgraded amongst all those Asian carriers which do operate it and can thus offer greater luxury to their premium customers, while at the same time offer unbeatable low prices to their economy class pax.

SQ is offering nothing in Business Class they don't offer on the 77W except more seats and a reduced sense of ambiance because the deck looks like a cubical farm. R Class is indeed impressive, but it's the width of the A380 that allows things like the "queen-sized bed" option for the center seats. And SQ is charging a significant premium for it which they have to prove is sustainable. 9W has private suites on their 77Ws, too, and nothing is stopping EK from putting them in their 77Ws except choice because the A345 that has them is narrower.

And do airlines like SQ want to lose money in back and subsidize those fares with their premium cabin when they can "right-size" the route and make money on every seat? The A380 certainly has her place and will do well in that place, but I do not believe she is a "must-have". Chew has "bet his airline" in no small part on the A380, so he needs to talk it up as much as possible. If SIN is to remain relevant as a transit point between Europe and India/Oceania/South Asia/Australia in the face of the Middle East carriers, he needs to drive traffic, period, to SIN and the A380 is the best way to do that.

But that does not mean traffic within and around India/Oceania/North Asia/South Asia/Australia must be carried on an A380. That is it not carried now by 744s, but instead a mix of planes from A332s to 773s, seems to run counter to the idea that maximum per unit density is a requirement...
 
Danny
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:57 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
yields are going to suffer if too much capacity is added

Yields will also suffer if they loose their premium passengers to SQ and others offering superior service on board their A380s.
 
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airbuseric
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:16 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 10):
FRA and LHR seem the most likely places to send it *if* they buy it - LH will be using theirs to NRT from FRA and I would imagine VS and BA will do likewise from LHR. If NH order it now, all three would probably get their A380s within a year of each other I suspect.

Nobody is going to cut flights, so I think this (if it happens) would be a very interesting experiment on what happens when you basically add about +/- 40% more seats onto a trunk citypair in a short space of time. Fares between LHR and NRT cannot come down much more than they are now and I think yields may suffer as a result. The A380 will not increase traffic on its own - the best way to increase growth and traffic on a route is to loosen pricing, which affects yields adversely. It may be that all concerned do not adjust pricing outside of current levels and there are no yield problems but this may not be possible if load factors drop significantly.

That being the case, it begs the question - if NH,BA, and VS all operate the A380 LHR-NRT and yields drop as pricing is adjusted to suit the extra capacity to make sure load factors do not drop, how will JL react? Tough one.

It is probably fair to say that the effects would be temporary and yields would probably increase over time, but if we assume that the extra capacity causes three months of sub-70% load factors and a drop in yields for all concerned, then how does the one carrier that uses the 77W instead react? 787-8 service to LHR for JL maybe?

NH will start service NRT-FRA twice daily on B787-8 when they are delivered, to meet passenger request for various options in departure and arrival times.

JL will go Japan-Europe also on 787's in the future, not on all routes as far as I can imagine. I'll bet LHR/AMS/FRA/CDG will get 787-8's to replace B777 services.

If NH (and VS and BA) will all send A380 between NRT-LHR, capacity will rise enormous, and those aircraft won't fill-up. I bet this will not happen. BA might do it, to replace their double 744-service now. JL won't go with any A380 on this route, because passenger demand to the UK is getting lower, one of the 2 NRT flights has been cut last year already (JL403/404). KIX flight might be axed too in the future (!).
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Stitch
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:43 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
Yields will also suffer if they loose their premium passengers to SQ and others offering superior service on board their A380s.

Maybe, maybe not. The A380 has no more First seats and only 10 more Business seats then their 744s. So if the same number of people who currently fly F on the 744 fly R on the A388, SQ has no additional capacity to poach customers from NH. And they can, at best, poach 10 Business Class folks from NH - assuming those passengers jumped from NH to SQ for the same seat on the 77W...

And with the premium they are charging for those R suites, there is no guarantee that everyone who flies F now on the 744s will be flying F on the A380 when they replace the 744s. And if they do not, will SQ need to lower the price to get those customers back? And will those customers fly NH, which is a mighty nice F, if not as nice as SQ's R? Or will they seek out the SQ 77W fleet, which has a very nice F, as well?
 
kaitak
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:06 pm

6-8 would do fine as a start. The thing is that once you have KE (ICN-NRT-LAX), SQ (SIN-NRT-LAX) and the likes of AF and LH coming in, plus other carriers from Asia and Australasia - TG, QF etc - how long can it be before JL gives way?

And others will follow - OZ, BR, possibly CI (but they've been reticent so far), CX, CA (which has just ruled it out) and so you have a new kind of domino theory in Asia ...
 
Thorben
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:13 pm

I think they'll get them sooner or later, because their competitors do. Japanese carriers are not as related to the Japanese industry (which helps building Boeing planes) as they were some time ago. They are independent and can buy from whomever they want to buy planes. And in this case, Boeing does offer a plane that is smaller and won't have the same level of pax comfort.
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Stitch
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:27 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 20):
And in this case, Boeing does offer a plane that is smaller and won't have the same level of pax comfort.

Just because people keep saying this doesn't even remotely make it true.

Until someone comes up with a seat or suite that is 6.2m in width, it's going to fit inside a 747-8I.

And unless it is 5.87m wide, it's going to fit inside a 777.

And unless it is 5.75m wide, it's going to fit inside a 787.

You might as well say that the A330 and A340 cannot be as comfortable as a 777 because you can only put in three SQ Business Class seats abreast instead of four...  Yeah sure
 
Thorben
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:31 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
Just because people keep saying this doesn't even remotely make it true.

Until someone comes up with a seat or suite that is 6.2m in width, it's going to fit inside a 747-8I.

And unless it is 5.87m wide, it's going to fit inside a 777.

And unless it is 5.75m wide, it's going to fit inside a 787.

Why don't you calculate the seat width people have in those planes, A380 and 747-8 10-abreast, 777 and 787 9-abreast.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
You might as well say that the A330 and A340 cannot be as comfortable as a 777 because you can only put in three SQ Business Class seats abreast instead of four... Yeah sure

The 777 can have a more spacious F class, see AF. However, A330 and A340 normally have 8-abreast in economy, the 777 has 9 or 10.
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PlaneHunter
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:37 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 12):
Singapore Airlines' CEO said it very well only recently: the A380 is going to change aviation in Asia.

What else do you expect him to say? Well, he could have said "it's made by good"...  Wink

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 12):
It is becoming increasingly clear the Superjumbo will completely re-shuffle the cards for all Asian airlines and those who don't operate it will quickly see their importance downgraded amongst all those Asian carriers which do operate it and can thus offer greater luxury to their premium customers, while at the same time offer unbeatable low prices to their economy class pax.

Yes, orders have been so increasingly massive over the past months and years that there can't be any other conclusion...  Yeah sure

As I have aid before - airlines can offer suites and lounge areas on B777s or A350s, too. The A380 may help to offer cheaper seats on certain routes for certain carriers - but the question is whether that advantage on a handful of routes (in ANA's case) is enough to add the type to the fleet. For numerous carriers it may make more economic sense to operate a standardized B777/A350 fleet which can be used more flexibly throughout the network.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 20):
I think they'll get them sooner or later, because their competitors do.

If it makes economic sense, yes. But not because of a "mine's bigger than yours or at least as big"-attitude.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 20):
And in this case, Boeing does offer a plane that is smaller and won't have the same level of pax comfort.

 Yeah sure


PH
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PlaneHunter
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:43 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 22):
The 777 can have a more spacious F class, see AF. However, A330 and A340 normally have 8-abreast in economy, the 777 has 9 or 10.

Carriers usually focus on First and Business Class - not Economy class.


PH
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Thorben
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:44 pm

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 23):
If it makes economic sense, yes. But not because of a "mine's bigger than yours or at least as big"-attitude.

Not bigger. Better.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
mptpa
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:50 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):

I agree. A plane size has nothing to do with comfort. All you need to consider is how many people are occupying given space. The folks in Y are not going to feel any more comfortable in an A380 compared to other WB. It all depends on how the carrier configures the section. As a Y passenger, do you want to be part of the 600 herd, or 280 herd?

Secondly, a carrier does not have to have like equipment to compete effectively? When the 747 came, not all had the 747 to compete, and same for 777 or 340 or whatever. Yields are important, and that is generated by ticket revenue and controlled cost structure. Ticket rev is generated by good customer satisfaction and retention, which leads to lower cost per customer. Customer sat is generated by good service, product and price. All these are related by a causal structure (think Balanced Scorecard), and yes the equipment plays a part in it if you market it well (depending if you have a kind of equipment or not). Like SQ, they have it and they market it to death. If NH elects to go with 777 and 787, they can market their positives accordingly (show the nicest interior, show value/benefit, display frequency over size, etc.)

Take care.
 
EI321
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:53 pm

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 19):
The thing is that once you have KE (ICN-NRT-LAX), SQ (SIN-NRT-LAX) and the likes of AF and LH coming in, plus other carriers from Asia and Australasia - TG, QF etc - how long can it be before JL gives way?

I do recall the ANA CEO saying in an interview that their decision on the A380 would be related to whether or not their competitors have it. I was not expecting to see the A380 in NH or JL colours but I was expecting to see it in Argentinas or Comet colours even less.
 
Glareskin
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:53 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 12):
Singapore Airlines' CEO said it very well only recently: the A380 is going to change aviation in Asia.

It is becoming increasingly clear the Superjumbo will completely re-shuffle the cards for all Asian airlines

How do Boeing executives call this? A game changer!

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
Quoting Thorben (Reply 20):
And in this case, Boeing does offer a plane that is smaller and won't have the same level of pax comfort.

Just because people keep saying this doesn't even remotely make it true.

True or not true, I agree if people say pax won't even notice the difference between 777 or A340, but in this case it's different. The superjumbo will probably attract passengers in the same way the 747 has done for decades. I've had a 747 preference for a lot of years. The airlines know this and won't miss the boat. NH is reacting to the SQ effect quickly. JL and others will follow, better comfort or not!
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
Thorben
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:59 pm

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 24):
Carriers usually focus on First and Business Class - not Economy class.

I think there are more planes with all-economy than with all-business-and-first.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
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Stitch
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:01 pm

I find the 777 to be the most comfortable plane in the sky, regardless of class of service I am in. Why? Because it feels "big" inside. I don't like the 747 in First and Business (downstairs) because of the low ceiling. The 747 Upper Deck was more spacious then I expected, but it also runs mighty warm for some reason, which I find uncomfortable.

Will I like the A380? I expect I will because it is wide and it is tall, just like the 777. But I don't expect that there will be fixtures that can only be put into an A380. They just might be a bit more economically effective at first because you have so much extra space, just like the UD on the 747-100 and 747-200 and the LD of the L-1011.

But eventually operating costs will rise and those fixtures will eventually become economically ineffective and they will be replaced by more seats, just as they were on the 747 and L-1011.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:19 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 25):
Not bigger. Better.

It's only better it can be filled with good yields and outweighs advantages of a standardized fleet of smaller aircraft...

Quoting Thorben (Reply 29):
I think there are more planes with all-economy than with all-business-and-first.

We are talking about premium carriers here, not LCC or domestic aircraft.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 30):
I find the 777 to be the most comfortable plane in the sky, regardless of class of service I am in. Why? Because it feels "big" inside.

 checkmark 

Quoting Stitch (Reply 30):
I expect I will because it is wide and it is tall, just like the 777. But I don't expect that there will be fixtures that can only be put into an A380.

 checkmark 


PH
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Leskova
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:18 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 30):
I find the 777 to be the most comfortable plane in the sky, regardless of class of service I am in. Why? Because it feels "big" inside.

That goes quite a way to show how much personal perception is important: I find the perception that the B777 feels "big" inside to be close to unnoticable, I do not have even the slightest feeling of more comfort in it than I do in a B767, B747 or A300/330/340.

But, as we all know (and some even dare to admit), not everyone has the same preferences...  Wink

Nonetheless, regarding the subject of this thread - I'd love to see NH order A380s, but I'll wait to see one (or more) actually flying in their livery before I believe it.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
Thorben
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:24 pm

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 31):
It's only better it can be filled with good yields and outweighs advantages of a standardized fleet of smaller aircraft...

Right usage of the tool raises the chances of success.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 31):
We are talking about premium carriers here, not LCC or domestic aircraft.

Even they should care about their economy class. Besides, which A380 customer is not a premium carrier??? To me it seems that those premium carriers are using them to give passengers maximum comfort of flying. Most A380 buyers will give them very low number of seats, SQ with 471, QF with 450, no one has more than 550 seats in it (except EK high density configuration). It seems those "premium" carriers appreciate the space the A380 has.
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centrair
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:29 pm

As some have said, NH's CEO stated that they were not ruling it out but were not serious about it. That was a year or more ago. He stated this in an ATW article. (I can't seem to find it.) Basically it was a case of if the competition does really well with the A380 both economically and practically, then they will consider it.

That all being said, the Japanese government is pushing JL and NH to try and launch flights from NGO and KIX to help eleviate NRT a little by feeding out station pax through other gateways.

Let's look at a couple carriers that ordered the A380 and currently serving NRT
AF: 77W, 772, A343 and I think once A332 weekly
BA: 2x 744
VS: A346
KE: 2x 744, 773, 772

AF stated (not sure where) that they will basically combine two of those flights into one thus eliminating 1 frequency but increasing capacity. I know the A332 is gone and I think the A343 one will be cut.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
OHLHD
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:41 pm

Definitely surprising since NH has ruled out a A380 purchase until now but now Airbus can provide real data about the aircraft and can convince airlines to have a closer look. I am sure it will last at least another year before a possible NH order.  Smile
 
alangirvan
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:37 pm

Going back to the start of this thread, what do studies and preliminary discussions mean? Airlines are always happy to have visiting sales reps in for a cup of coffee and to see the latest studies of what a plane will do for them. They are always happy to receive a model plane painted in their colours. ( Doesn't Herb Kelleher have a model A320 in WN colours?). But there is a gap between hosting the rep, and deciding the A380 is the only answer to an airline's capacity needs.

NH and JL may have said that 77Ws were going to be the biggest planes in their fleet, but this will depend on busy the runways will be at Narita and the important city pairs out of Japan. When Narita's second runway opened some airlines replaced 747s with A330/340/777s. How long will it take for demand to go up so that the airlines need to use 747s and bigger planes again. If NH and JL are seriously looking at A380s, 747-8is will be part of the same study.
 
jacobin777
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:00 am

Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 36):
Going back to the start of this thread, what do studies and preliminary discussions mean? Airlines are always happy to have visiting sales reps in for a cup of coffee and to see the latest studies of what a plane will do for them. They are always happy to receive a model plane painted in their colours. ( Doesn't Herb Kelleher have a model A320 in WN colours?). But there is a gap between hosting the rep, and deciding the A380 is the only answer to an airline's capacity needs.

...even AA stated "we will be taking a look at the A350"....even though its a well known fact the probability of AA getting the A350 is rather small.

It would be asinine if NH didn't take a look at the A380.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
aerokiwi
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 5):
Yet another airline that had "no plans" to buy A380 and according to some A.netters would never ever buy it.

The airline stated in one of its annual reports that its future medium-term fleet would be based around the 737, 787 and 777. So it's not like it was an Anet myth, as you're suggesting.
 
Asiaflyer
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
It would be asinine if NH didn't take a look at the A380.....

The same could be said if NH find the A380 to be the perfect match and still dont buy it.
(Applies for AA and the A350 as well I think.)
SQ,MI,MH,CX,KA,CA,CZ,MU,KE,OZ,QF,NZ,FD,JQ,3K,5J,IT,AI,IC,QR,SK,LF,KL,AF,LH,LX,OS,SR,BA,SN,FR,WF,1I,5T,VZ,VX,AC,NW,UA,US,
 
karan69
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:41 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 34):
Let's look at a couple carriers that ordered the A380 and currently serving NRT
AF: 77W, 772, A343 and I think once A332 weekly
BA: 2x 744
VS: A346
KE: 2x 744, 773, 772

What about SQ and TG, the former already said that it will operate it when its 4th aircraft comes online

Karan
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:12 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 33):
Right usage of the tool raises the chances of success.

That sounds like any carrier could operate the bird successfully IF the "usage is right"...  Yeah sure

Quoting Thorben (Reply 33):
Even they should care about their economy class. Besides, which A380 customer is not a premium carrier??? To me it seems that those premium carriers are using them to give passengers maximum comfort of flying. Most A380 buyers will give them very low number of seats, SQ with 471, QF with 450, no one has more than 550 seats in it (except EK high density configuration). It seems those "premium" carriers appreciate the space the A380 has.

What's maximum comfort on SIA's A380? C class and Y Class are not significantly different on the 77W. And the new F suites will more or less find their way into other types. I had expected more legroom in Eco, but the airline chose a conservative approach. The total seat number is irrelevant for comparisons. And I would be careful with manufacturers' numbers anyway.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
Leskova
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:03 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 33):
Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 31):
It's only better it can be filled with good yields and outweighs advantages of a standardized fleet of smaller aircraft...


Right usage of the tool raises the chances of success.

Correct... but using a bigger tool does not. The tool needs to be the right size - and bigger is not always better. (oh boy... I can imagine what some are thinking while they're reading these words...  Wink ...).

Quoting Thorben (Reply 33):
Even they should care about their economy class.

Why do you think Y-class pax are occasionally referred to as self-loading-cargo? They're ok since they pay a part of the cost that the airline incurrs by operating the plane, but - with most airlines - money is made in the premium part of the plane. And looking at the levels of "comfort" that most airlines (including premium carriers) offer in Y-class, I'd say it's a very safe assumption to make that caring about Y-class pax comes right after caring about the birds that might hit the plane during climbout.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 33):
Besides, which A380 customer is not a premium carrier???

Not sure if China Southern is always considered a premium carrier, though my experience with them was good - and isn't Kingfisher actually an LCC? Admittedly, they might be a premium LCC... and if the Marsans order turns out to be true and Air Comet gets A380s...
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centrair
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:51 am

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 40):
What about SQ and TG, the former already said that it will operate it when its 4th aircraft comes online

I did those off the top of my head. I didn't have time to look up SQ and TG at the time. Here they are now. SQ makes sense. I wonder if they will go A380, 744 and cut the one 772? I assume that is a 772A

SQ: 2x 744, 772 (6 days a week)
TG: 773, 772, 744 (6 days a week)
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
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airbuseric
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:53 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 42):
Not sure if China Southern is always considered a premium carrier, though my experience with them was good

I would say CZ is a premium carrier when it comes to their longhaul product on the B777's.
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
 
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Stitch
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:15 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 33):
Even they should care about their economy class.



Quoting Leskova (Reply 42):
Why do you think Y-class pax are occasionally referred to as self-loading-cargo? They're ok since they pay a part of the cost that the airline incurrs by operating the plane, but - with most airlines - money is made in the premium part of the plane.

And for those Y class passengers who are willing to buy a fare high enough to make it "worth the effort to carry them", many airlines are moving to a "premium" economy product to make their flight a bit less taxing.
 
ikramerica
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:51 pm

Remember when Boeing said they were in talks with 20 carriers about the 748i? What's become of that.

The statement from NH is about as non-committal as you can find. It's funny how much is being read into it.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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Stitch
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:57 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 46):
Remember when Boeing said they were in talks with 20 carriers about the 748i? What's become of that.

They're taking 77Ws, A388s, or both, instead.  Smile
 
slz396
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:44 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 46):
The statement from NH is about as non-committal as you can find. It's funny how much is being read into it.

Don't be fooled by the lack of clear committal in this statement!
This one is just to prepare 'the audience' for the upcoming U-turn the airline is about to make...

You can't expect a fervent 'NAY' sayer like ANA to suddenly announce they've committed to 16 A380s, can you?
It just wouldn't give a good impression of the way the company is run and long term fleet planning is done, so now that they have made up their mind about the A380 internally, they have to make sure everybody can follow them in the U-turn ahead, hence this first positive statement about the chances of the A380 with ANA.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 34):
As some have said, NH's CEO stated that they were not ruling it out but were not serious about it. That was a year or more ago.

Indeed and in the mean time the A380 has proven itself as a very good and highly efficient plane, and several direct competitors of ANA have either increased their A380 orders or opted for the A380, so the A380 for-filled the 2 main conditions for ANA to order it.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 32):
I'd love to see NH order A380s, but I'll wait to see one (or more) actually flying in their livery before I believe it.

A very well-informed source in the world of finance has told me off-record ANA are currently negotiating the financing package for a firm order of 8 A380s (at least), with a similar number of options...
 
bmacleod
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RE: NH Talks To Airbus About A380

Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:17 pm

Well I guess this rules out the 748I. It would've looked nice in NH colors. Hey if NH is backing from their firm "no" on the A380, future possibilities (I'm talking past 2010-2015) may arise with AC. Stranger things have happened and the A380 has already touched down in Canada....  spin 
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