hush-kit
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DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:36 pm

folks, what I don't get: DL starts downsizing "major " transatlantic services effective spring 2008 out of JFK, so DL106 (to FRA), DL118 (to CDG) and maybe more...AF,LH,SQ and other competing airlines operate largest equipment (747,777,330) on these routes. Does DL has to free 767 so urgently??? And: on which more profitable routes does DL operate these 767??? Or does DL have an over-capacity problem whith these former TWA, then previously AA owned 757 ??? Chris
 
slz396
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:41 pm

BRU too will see the daily JFK service downgraded from 763 to 752...

It might have to do with the open sky agreement between the EU and the US taking effect then and DL anticipating lower load factors from the opening of many new flights to JFK by airlines like BA, AF, and others from airports which they currently were banned from.
 
sxf24
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:01 pm

The routes being downsized are largely dominated by other carriers and tend to have lower yields. DL is hoping that the reduced capacity and superior inflight experience can help it boost yields ex-JFK.
 
dutchjet
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:02 pm

You have lots of questions in your post.....let me try to answer them.

DL will be down-gauging certain transatlantic routes ex-JFK: JFK-AMS/BRU/FRA will operate with a 752 instead of a 763ER, JFK-EDI will operate with a 752 (replacing the ATL-EDI 763ER route), and some new routes (we know of ORY, AGP and LYS for example) will be launched with the 752.

As for the AMS, BRU and FRA services, this is why the 752 is being utilized:
-the 752 has the range for these services.
-DL had trouble filling the 763ERs on these routes, especially over the slower winter period, with high yielding pax....and filling the airplane with pax on bargain basement fares is really not an option in todays environment.
-the 752ER will allow DL to maintain daily service on these routes.
-DL flies to each of these cities from their mega hub in ATL (and in some cases from CVG as well); this means that a good portion of connecting pax are routed via ATL and the JFK service is a bit more O&D oriented meaning less seats are needed in the markets.

DL's plan is to open lots of longer (and hopefully more profitable) routes out of JFK and ATL to destinations where there is limited or no competition and/or where demand is exceeding supply; thus the 763ERs that will be displaced will open routes like JFK-DKR-CPT/NBO, JFK-TLV, JFK-AMM, etc (all routes that clearly cannot be flown by a 752).

DL is attempting to utilize its assets, its airplanes, more effectively: while the "downgrade"" of the AMS, BRU, FRA routes is a bit surprising at first glance, consider that:

AMS is solid KL/NW territory (SkyTeam partners).....and AMS is a difficult city as far as yields.

BRU has a lot of competition...its a lower demand destination and AA and CO (from EWR) also fly this route....CO does especially well with its service in and out of BRU due to very high premium demand.

FRA is a problematic due to the huge presence of STAR alliance carriers at that airport....LH+SQ are difficult to go against in this market (and I have heard that even SQ's loads on the daily JFK-FRA flight are not outstanding although yields are cargo loads are probably quite good). DL has had trouble with the FRA flight ever since its continuation to India was dropped in favor of nonstop service. CO is also a factor and it does OK with its EWR-FRA flights....lots of competition.

Finally, consider that the ex-TW/AA 752s will be one of the nicest airplanes in DL's fleet once the interiors receive their upgrades.....for example, new seats, PTVs in biz and coach (something that is not available on the 763ERs), new interior installations, etc. So is it really a downgrade?

This is all about flexibility and allocation of resources in a hope to increase revenue and profits.....the ex-TW/AA 752s give DL the opportunity to fly a smaller, most cost effective airplane on certain routes that are not stellar performers for the airline, and, in turn, frees up 763ERs to fly new routes that hopefully will be extremely successful. DL is doing the right thing here.

[Edited 2007-10-20 13:07:12]

[Edited 2007-10-20 13:08:52]
 
slz396
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:18 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
BRU has a lot of competition...its a lower demand destination and AA and CO (from EWR) also fly this route....CO does especially well with its service in and out of BRU due to very high premium demand.

CO does very well on EWR indeed, also thanks to their huge network and the large number of connecting pax they take on their flight.

AA has an extensive partnership with SN and also has no problem filling its 763, meaning it is very though for another American airline to successfully serve JFK from BRU as the market is well covered by SN/AA and CO.

DL could hold on thanks to offering a slightly better premium service, but recently 9W opened 2 daily BRU-NYC flights (1 JFK, 1 EWR), with 5th freedom rights on the transatlantic segment and the Indian airline definitely offers a superior product than DL ever can.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:34 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
This is all about flexibility and allocation of resources in a hope to increase revenue and profits.....the ex-TW/AA 752s give DL the opportunity to fly a smaller, most cost effective airplane on certain routes that are not stellar performers for the airline, and, in turn, frees up 763ERs to fly new routes that hopefully will be extremely successful. DL is doing the right thing here.

Probably the best answer to all of this. It will be interesting to see how all of this pans out after the USDOT meeting about JFK and its problems currently being discussed over in some other threads.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
Xkorpyoh
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
Finally, consider that the ex-TW/AA 752s will be one of the nicest airplanes in DL's fleet once the interiors receive their upgrades.....for example, new seats, PTVs in biz and coach (something that is not available on the 763ERs), new interior installations, etc. So is it really a downgrade?

I just flew on one of the "new" 727-200 (a), ex AA planes, and I was disapointed. (BWI-ATL-SFO FIRST CLASS)

What is new:
- new livery
- new blue leather seat covers
- winglets
- fake wood floor in bathroom

What is not good:
- No PTV in first or coah
- First class seats are the same old domestic first class seats, not the businesselite seats
- bathroom look wornout inside

The safety card said " 757-200 (Intl)", so I assume the will use it for transatlantic, but why they didn't add the PTV as speculated here and why not change the domestic first class seats to businesselite seats and add more space if they intend to charge full business class fares over the atlantic?
 
floridaflyboy
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:33 am

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 6):
The safety card said " 757-200 (Intl)", so I assume the will use it for transatlantic, but why they didn't add the PTV as speculated here and why not change the domestic first class seats to businesselite seats and add more space if they intend to charge full business class fares over the atlantic?

That is still the plan. They're not done with those aircraft yet.
Good goes around!
 
28thguy
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:54 am

I'd also add that British Airways (and Virgin Atlantic, potentially) are planning to start competing on several of these routes in 2008, also using 757 aircraft. If DL had kept flying 767-300 aircraft without AVOD in coach, there would have been a disparity versus BA's product. So these flights (single-aisle aircraft, yet updated with AVOD) will be competitive with BA and Virgin.
 
JKJ777
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 6):
just flew on one of the "new" 727-200 (a), ex AA planes, and I was disapointed. (BWI-ATL-SFO FIRST CLASS

Man, flying in a 727-200.....You must have had one heck of a ride in a time machine since it has been some years since those have been around. Were peanuts offered on the time travel flight? How much was your ticket? JK  Smile

I am sure this is not the final product for these birds. Soon enough, I am sure they will be up to date with the new product inside.
 
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beau222
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 7):
I just flew on one of the "new" 727-200 (a), ex AA planes, and I was disapointed. (BWI-ATL-SFO FIRST CLASS)

You had me confused for a minute there.
 
B777ER
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
(we know of ORY, AGP and LYS for example) will be launched with the 752.

When was this announced? Link?
 
Xkorpyoh
Posts: 727
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:55 am

RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting Jkj777 (Reply 9):
Man, flying in a 727-200.....You must have had one heck of a ride in a time machine since it has been some years since those have been around. Were peanuts offered on the time travel flight? How much was your ticket? JK Smile

,,, i am referring to the official Delta designation for this particular sub-type of 757 (757-200 (a) ) ...

correction: 727-200 = 757-200 (a)

[Edited 2007-10-20 20:07:50]

[Edited 2007-10-20 20:12:12]
 
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Coal
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:39 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
and I have heard that even SQ's loads on the daily JFK-FRA

Really? I've found it nearly impossible to get on this flight. What's more, it seems all SIN-USA flights are always packed to the brim.

One question that pops up: Once the 767s and 777s have the new BusinessElite seats, what will the BE product offering be on the 757s?

Cheers
Coal
Nxt Flts: MI RGN-SIN | SQ SIN-RGN-SIN | CX SIN-HKG-PVG | SQ PVG-SIN
 
aerohottie
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:49 am

Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 2):
DL is hoping that the reduced capacity and superior inflight experience can help it boost yields ex-JFK.

If this is the strategy then DL better start planning on having a superior inflight experience, because they certainly don't have it now.
What?
 
behramjee
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:59 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):

As for the AMS, BRU and FRA services, this is why the 752 is being utilized:
-the 752 has the range for these services.
-DL had trouble filling the 763ERs on these routes, especially over the slower winter period, with high yielding pax....and filling the airplane with pax on bargain basement fares is really not an option in todays environment.
-the 752ER will allow DL to maintain daily service on these routes.

From your statement, I can conclude that DL makes a loss flying to AMS/BRU/FRA from JFK. Since it already has flights to AMS & FRA from ATL then it should stick to it than just un-necessarily adding flights from JFK just to play ball with other airlines. I would not send B 752s from JFK to AMS/BRU/FRA...its just not worth it I feel...I would rather see DL suspend flights from JFK to these 3 EU airports and allocate their B 752ERs to more profitable and less competitive routes.

idea :

Why not use the B 752ER on some medium density JFK-Latin America/Central America routes...AA uses their AB6s on some JFK-Central America routes and supposedly does well on them.
 
747fan
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:18 am

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 15):
From your statement, I can conclude that DL makes a loss flying to AMS/BRU/FRA from JFK. Since it already has flights to AMS & FRA from ATL then it should stick to it than just un-necessarily adding flights from JFK just to play ball with other airlines.

How are their LGW flights doing? I know they still have 2X daily 763's on this, but I thought they were going to eventually add a third flight.
People are saying how this route is getting a downgrade by going from 763 to 752. Yes, its a capacity downgrade. But on the other token, its a product upgrade; you don't get PTV's in Y on the 763's and not only will the ex-AA 752's have those, but they'll be AVOD (once the planes are finished with the updates; a poster mentioned flying on one that didn't have the new PTV's or BizE seats installed). Plus, those 752's are absolutely eye candy with the new livery and the winglets.
 
centrair
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:00 am

I wonder if some of these downgraded aircraft are going to be used for new expansion from LAX or to new destinations out of hte 752 reach?
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
hnl-jack
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 10:34 pm

RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 17):
I wonder if some of these downgraded aircraft are going to be used for new expansion from LAX or to new destinations out of hte 752 reach?

My guess is that we'll see them in HNL before too long, replacing the west coast 763 and 764 flights.
 
NewYorkCityBoi
Posts: 112
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:37 am

I wish DL kept their B767-200, so they can downgrade from 763 to 762, not a big jump down. I personally feel more confortable on a widebody on a longhaul regardless of how nice the seat is.
 
panamair
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:40 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):

DL will be down-gauging certain transatlantic routes ex-JFK: JFK-AMS/BRU/FRA will operate with a 752 instead of a 763ER,

AMS is not a sure thing yet...it was for a while downgraded to a 752 starting spring 2008 but then went back to being a 763ER. There was also talk that TXL would get a 752 but so far, all data loaded seems to indicate a 763ER for now.

The published 752 JFK-Europe flights at this point include:

JFK-SNN - already started
JFK-MAN - start Jan 2008
JFK-DUB - 2x weekly in winter but then back to a 763ER spring/summer (for now)
JFK-FRA - start Mar 2008
JFK-BRU - start Apr 2008
JFK-CDG - start May 2008
JFK-ORY - start June 2008
JFK-AGP - start June 2008
JFK-LYS - start July 2008

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 6):
I just flew on one of the "new" 727-200 (a), ex AA planes, and I was disapointed. (BWI-ATL-SFO FIRST CLASS)



Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 6):
but why they didn't add the PTV as speculated here and why not change the domestic first class seats to businesselite seats and add more space if they intend to charge full business class fares over the atlantic?

Those ex-AA 752s haven't undergone the full reconfiguration yet. The first one will get the PTV/international configuration modifications starting this December. Currently, these are only flying domestic runs and JFK-SNN (sold as all-coach) and are basically set up the same way as when they got them from AA (except for the leather seat covers).

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 4):
9W opened 2 daily BRU-NYC flights (1 JFK, 1 EWR), with 5th freedom rights on the transatlantic segment and the Indian airline definitely offers a superior product than DL ever can.

As is usual with these things, a superior product will not necessarily get the business travelers to switch over. Many of these business customers (particularly US-based ones) have Frequent Flyer affiliation as well as corporate contracts pushing them towards using the US carriers (even if they don't offer 9W's luxuries). I am not just talking about DL here but also CO, AA, UA, US, etc. 9W lags on the FF side (for now) - not being part of any alliance or significant partnerships...while they may draw some high-yield traffic from those who fly strictly based on product, the number of people who do that are not that significant.


Quoting 747fan (Reply 16):
I know they still have 2X daily 763's on this, but I thought they were going to eventually add a third flight.

Now that DL will be flying JFK-LHR 2x daily (starting Mar 29, 08), they will reduce JFK-LGW to 1x daily for next spring/summer. Right now LGW still shows a 763ER but I won't be surprised if they switch it to a 752 later....
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4050
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:07 am

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 6):
What is new:
- new livery
- new blue leather seat covers
- winglets
- fake wood floor in bathroom

What is not good:
- No PTV in first or coah
- First class seats are the same old domestic first class seats, not the businesselite seats
- bathroom look wornout inside

= Seriously, what is up with the fake hardwood bathroom floors in J class? They dont look that great and get super dirty. I have flown DL J 5 times the past month, and its been the case each time.

Quoting Aerohottie (Reply 14):
Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 2):
DL is hoping that the reduced capacity and superior inflight experience can help it boost yields ex-JFK.

If this is the strategy then DL better start planning on having a superior inflight experience, because they certainly don't have it now.

= I do not agree with this assessment. I have flown DL enough to say they are probably the best American product out there (for me), and far superior to many Euro legacies such as IB, OA, AZ, AF, etc.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 20):
As is usual with these things, a superior product will not necessarily get the business travelers to switch over. Many of these business customers (particularly US-based ones) have Frequent Flyer affiliation as well as corporate contracts pushing them towards using the US carriers (even if they don't offer 9W's luxuries). I am not just talking about DL here but also CO, AA, UA, US, etc. 9W lags on the FF side (for now) - not being part of any alliance or significant partnerships...while they may draw some high-yield traffic from those who fly strictly based on product, the number of people who do that are not that significant.

= Not necessarily true though. EK, and followed by EY and QR has shown that you dont need to be part of an alliance to generate traffic up front. 9W follows the same dymanics. Moreover, 9W has an excellent internationally award winning FFP with ties to several leading carriers. Finally, I think 9W with its F-suites is targetting super premium traffic and not those mid-managers like me enslaved by FFP loyalties.

Cheers,
A.

PS: I recently took 3 J class flights (TRs to follow) on DL's JFK-CDG and 95% of the cabin was non-rev each time. Not a good sign for sure ...
Live, and let live.
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:44 pm

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 6):
The safety card said " 757-200 (Intl)", so I assume the will use it for transatlantic, but why they didn't add the PTV as speculated here and why not change the domestic first class seats to businesselite seats and add more space if they intend to charge full business class fares over the atlantic?

As pointed out, DL has not yet installed the new interior features on the ex-TW/AA 752s.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 15):
From your statement, I can conclude that DL makes a loss flying to AMS/BRU/FRA from JFK.

I dont know if that is a correct conclusion.......I really dont know if DL makes money on these routes; I do know that the loads factors with the 763ER on these flights was not great and tend to go out with many empty seats especially during the winter period.....thus, the 752 seems like a very good ideal for these services.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 15):
I would not send B 752s from JFK to AMS/BRU/FRA...its just not worth it I feel...I would rather see DL suspend flights from JFK to these 3 EU airports and allocate their B 752ERs to more profitable and less competitive routes.



Quoting Behramjee (Reply 15):
Why not use the B 752ER on some medium density JFK-Latin America/Central America routes...AA uses their AB6s on some JFK-Central America routes and supposedly does well on them.

DL is adding flights from JFK to Central America to be operated by 752s and 738s.
For DL to maintain and grow its presence in the NYC area, and to attract and maintain business flyers and corporate contracts, its essential that DL offer service from JFK to key European destinations.....AMS/BRU/FRA are among those destinations.

Quoting HNL-Jack" class=quote target=_blank>HNL-Jack (Reply 18):
My guess is that we'll see them in HNL before too long, replacing the west coast 763 and 764 flights.

Unlikely, the ex-TW/AA 752s are being equipped with a BizElite international J class product which is not needed or required for services to Hawaii. These airplanes will primarily fly transatlantic international services, with the occasional domestic service for rotation and positioning purposes.

Quoting NewYorkCityBoi (Reply 19):
I wish DL kept their B767-200, so they can downgrade from 763 to 762, not a big jump down. I personally feel more confortable on a widebody on a longhaul regardless of how nice the seat is.

Widebody comfort? Ancient history.......and DL's 762s were non-ER models and not ETOPS airplanes, thus they did not and could not fly transatlantic services. Also, as you may know, the operating economics of the 752 is very different from that of the 762, the 752 is a much more cost effective airliner on the routes being discussed.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 20):
AMS is not a sure thing yet...it was for a while downgraded to a 752 starting spring 2008 but then went back to being a 763ER. There was also talk that TXL would get a 752 but so far, all data loaded seems to indicate a 763ER for now.

The online schedule for Summer 2008 is showing JFK-AMS with 752.......if that information is correct.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 4):
DL could hold on thanks to offering a slightly better premium service, but recently 9W opened 2 daily BRU-NYC flights (1 JFK, 1 EWR), with 5th freedom rights on the transatlantic segment and the Indian airline definitely offers a superior product than DL ever can.

From what I have heard, Jet is (currently) boarding very few pax in BRU bound for the NYC area.....the traffic on the flights is overwhelmingly pax travelling between India and the US and return which obviously is Jet's focus; Jet pax do change airplanes in BRU, which of course is the intent of the mini-hub at BRU.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 21):
= Not necessarily true though. EK, and followed by EY and QR has shown that you dont need to be part of an alliance to generate traffic up front. 9W follows the same dymanics. Moreover, 9W has an excellent internationally award winning FFP with ties to several leading carriers. Finally, I think 9W with its F-suites is targetting super premium traffic and not those mid-managers like me enslaved by FFP loyalties.

Everyone is different and makes different choices.......but lots of the premium transatlantic traffic is controlled by corporate contracts and FF allegiance. Also consider that 9W, a great airline with a world class product, can only get you from BRU to EWR or JFK, the US carriers offer connection possibilities throughout the Americas. 9W is not boarding many US bound pax at BRU nor is that their mission.....9W is far more interested in moving pax between the US and India and allow easy connections at BRU. Of course, 9W will move some pax between BRU and the US, and the total number will grow especially as the number of flights/destinations increase but its probably not a major factor, example, EK's performance on the JFK-HAM sector has been anything but spectacular.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 20):
Now that DL will be flying JFK-LHR 2x daily (starting Mar 29, 08), they will reduce JFK-LGW to 1x daily for next spring/summer. Right now LGW still shows a 763ER but I won't be surprised if they switch it to a 752 later....

It will be intersting to watch how DL, and other carriers, handle their London flights after increased service to Heathrow begins.......will pax continue flying to LGW once LHR is on offer? And, AA's service to STN will also be interesting to watch.
 
laca773
Posts: 2033
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:10 am

RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:06 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
As for the AMS, BRU and FRA services, this is why the 752 is being utilized:
-the 752 has the range for these services.
-DL had trouble filling the 763ERs on these routes, especially over the slower winter period, with high yielding pax....and filling the airplane with pax on bargain basement fares is really not an option in todays environment.
-the 752ER will allow DL to maintain daily service on these routes.
-DL flies to each of these cities from their mega hub in ATL (and in some cases from CVG as well); this means that a good portion of connecting pax are routed via ATL and the JFK service is a bit more O&D oriented meaning less seats are needed in the markets

Thanks for all the information, Dutchjet.
I want to know if there's a possibility DL will primarily use the 752s on certain routes i.e., JFK-CDG where their significant partner AF has the heavy hand on that route. What I'm getting at for example instead of running 75Ws everyday during the peak season, is there a possibility they'll also fly 763s when capacity dictates as such. Like MThFSu fly a 763 and on TuWSa use a 75W?

I'm still hopeful DL will come around and install PTVs in the main cabins of their 763s. It just doesn't make sense when their main domestic competitior to Europe, CO as well as UA have them installed.

LACA773
 
panamair
Posts: 3765
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:26 pm

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 21):
EK, and followed by EY and QR has shown that you dont need to be part of an alliance to generate traffic up front.

Yes, while EK is not part of an alliance, they did get involved in the loyalty/FF game early on by being a partner in multiple US carriers' FF programs - UA, CO, and DL, IIRC. They also codeshared with CO, for example, on some of the US-UK and UK-DXB routes. QR has also aligned itself to many Star Alliance carriers' FF programs...all these moves helped generate additional exposure to much of the business traveler market...

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 22):
The online schedule for Summer 2008 is showing JFK-AMS with 752.......if that information is correct.

Which online schedule are you looking at? Delta.com shows the 763ER for late June/early July; seatmaps show 763ER; various CRS also show the 767...
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:26 pm

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 23):
Thanks for all the information, Dutchjet.

No problem at all.

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 23):
want to know if there's a possibility DL will primarily use the 752s on certain routes i.e., JFK-CDG where their significant partner AF has the heavy hand on that route. What I'm getting at for example instead of running 75Ws everyday during the peak season, is there a possibility they'll also fly 763s when capacity dictates as such. Like MThFSu fly a 763 and on TuWSa use a 75W?



Quoting Panamair (Reply 20):
JFK-CDG - start May 2008

DL has scheudled a 752 for its summer JFK-CDG service.......thats the only DL metal on the route while AF flies several large airplanes per day between the cities. I think that DL will be very straegic in its aircraft allocations on certain routes, using the 757 on lower demand days/seasons and assigning a 763/764 when historically there is more demand. The 752s, as I mentioned above, are all about flexibility and putting the right number of seats in a market.

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 23):
I'm still hopeful DL will come around and install PTVs in the main cabins of their 763s. It just doesn't make sense when their main domestic competitior to Europe, CO as well as UA have them installed.

I agree with you in this one......DL is working hard to upgrade it product and the omission of PTVs on the 763ERs, the backbone of its longhaul fleet, is problematic and results in an inconsistent Main Cabin product. I understand that DL is very concerned about weight/range issues as DL is planning to dispatch the 763ER on some routes that will get very close to the type's operational limit, but with advancing technology, there should be a solution to this dilema. Time will tell.
 
panamair
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:38 pm

Part of the reason for the 752 on JFK-CDG I suspect is because of the split next summer of Paris traffic between JFK-CDG and JFK-ORY. The ORY flight was also more of AF's idea rather than DL wanting to start another Paris flight; AF doesn't have the right-size equipment but certainly wants to protect the Paris market from the BA and the L'Avions of this world....

Also, since DL and AF are going 50-50 JV on JFK-CDG, DL will also reap more of the benefits of AF's heavy JFK-CDG operation next summer than they do today...if this JV is anywhere approaching the KL-NW model, then it almost doesn't matter who is operating what equipment on the route.
 
dutchjet
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:09 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 26):
Also, since DL and AF are going 50-50 JV on JFK-CDG, DL will also reap more of the benefits of AF's heavy JFK-CDG operation next summer than they do today...if this JV is anywhere approaching the KL-NW model, then it almost doesn't matter who is operating what equipment on the route.

Very good point.
 
rjpieces
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:01 pm

All this talk about downsizing these routes that have seen 767 service for years makes me wonder just how profitable Delta has been over the Atlantic over the years...

Quoting Panamair (Reply 26):
Also, since DL and AF are going 50-50 JV on JFK-CDG, DL will also reap more of the benefits of AF's heavy JFK-CDG operation next summer than they do today...if this JV is anywhere approaching the KL-NW model, then it almost doesn't matter who is operating what equipment on the route.

Just wondering here, but what's the point for AF to go in a 50-50 JV with Delta on this route when presumably they could attract a lot of passengers themselves? Or does Delta give them THAT much feed at JFK?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
NYCAAer
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:36 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 28):
All this talk about downsizing these routes that have seen 767 service for years makes me wonder just how profitable Delta has been over the Atlantic over the years...

I commend Delta for keeping the routes and creating a vast network out of JFK. A route can be profitable during certain months of the year, break even other months, and operate at a loss during other months. Hopefully, the profitable months are enough for the route to make money for the year.

I wish my airline would do that- we (AA) have served some European destinations for only 4 months and pulled out!

[Edited 2007-10-21 09:38:56]
 
dutchjet
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:10 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 28):
All this talk about downsizing these routes that have seen 767 service for years makes me wonder just how profitable Delta has been over the Atlantic over the years...

I am sure that one of our Delta experts has more information than I do.......but do consider that DL has had a love/hate relationship with its JFK gateway over the years. When DL first took over PA's transatlantic network and JFK gateway, DL flew to a huge number of destinations in Europe, a few years later, DL dramatically cut back routes due to heavy losses, since then, DL added and reduced both longhaul international and domestic connecting service at JFK almost randomly, and made some rather poor decisions concerning its route network out of JFK. For a time, it seemed as if DL's management had forgotten about the potential of JFK and was considering opening an transatlantic gateway at BOS, a couple hundred miles to the north....hard to believe.

Now, DL has re-discovered that its JFK operation is a very important asset in the DL network and has been expanding service at record levels......so, back to the original point, I really dont know if JFK-Transatlantic operations were profitable in the past, but what is more important is that the JFK Transatlantic routes will be a huge source of profits for DL in the future. As for DL's transatlantic operations out of ATL and CVG, I have little doubt that DL has made a lot of money on these routes over the years.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:32 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 28):
All this talk about downsizing these routes that have seen 767 service for years makes me wonder just how profitable Delta has been over the Atlantic over the years...

From JFK, not very. Since purchasing the PA routes, DL has struggled to make money at JFK particularly on routes with stiff competition. JFK was routinely a loser and DL management had considered shrinking JFK down to nothing more than a focus city with maybe 30-40 flights.

Of course, things have changed recently with DL slashing its costs and also beefing up the feed to JFK. Even with these things, DL still has a tough time on some of the more competitive routes from JFK, hence the downgrade to 757's and the addition of many routes with weak or no competition (KBP, PSA, LOS, CAI, AGP, OTP, ACC, etc).
 
Alitalia744
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:38 pm

The routes that are being right-sized are being done so to ensure long-term viability and profitability of said routes and a continued emphasis on JFK as a HUB/Int'l Gateway for DL. If you can launch a new route using a 767 by switching a route to a 757 why not? Sometimes, in non-core markets, or markets entrenched with competition, it doesn't make sense to operate a larger aircraft when a 757 will enable you to operate in the market with profit.

CDG is downgauged as a result of the JV. DL ops to ORY to help AF protect their turf, and DL still gets 50% of profits on the JFK-CDG route.

AMS is token NW/KLM territory, a 767 is too much sometimes for the route, from a DELTA standpoint. Switching to a 757 ensures year-round service.

FRA is a core Star hub with competition from LH and SQ. 757s allow continued service.

SNN/DUB/MAN - lower yielding markets where 35J doesn't make sense...and a 767 is too much airplane. CO ops 757s into all three as well...no one said they downsized EWR in doing so...

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 28):
All this talk about downsizing these routes that have seen 767 service for years makes me wonder just how profitable Delta has been over the Atlantic over the years...

A good question, but 2007 operating environment vastly differs from 1997s operating environment....
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:43 pm

The simple reason is that DL is virtually alone among US carriers in that it does not feel a need to dominate routes into its partner's hubs. NYC is far more competitive than any other city and DL would rather allow its partners to fight it out for local markets; even ATL-CDG which is DL's largest US to foreign carrier hub has far fewer seats than do other US-Euro carriers on their hub to hub routes.

DL's network is about OVERFLYING hubs, not dumping seats onto another carrier's network. The strength of DL's international network is the dozens of unique cities it uniquely serves around the world by US carriers. The 757s will free up 767s to add even more of those cities. DL wouldn't be adding CPT, NBO, AMM, and CAI to its network if didn't free up some 767s by replacing the with 757s. I would far rather see DL continue to add more and more new cities than use a widebody on a route when a 757 will do the job.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:02 pm

Quoting NewYorkCityBoi (Reply 19):
I wish DL kept their B767-200, so they can downgrade from 763 to 762, not a big jump down. I personally feel more confortable on a widebody on a longhaul

...long as you don't mind splashing-down a few hundred miles short of your destination  Wink

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 28):
All this talk about downsizing these routes that have seen 767 service for years makes me wonder just how profitable Delta has been over the Atlantic over the years...

Understandable, but also jumping the gun. There have been VAST changes in the market since the 90s. DL's responding by radically rearranging their equipment, routings, and partnerships.

Look at NYC-PAR alone:
sure CO and AA have been there since back in the day. AF used to be the dominant competitor. AI's joined the fray. Non-network carriers are siphoning the lower end of the business market. Soon, we'll see DL competing against BA nonstop. However, DL's ops are now going to be split between two airports, and AF is no longer a competitor in any sense.

Because they had to do this to address the market NOW does not mean what they were doing a decade ago didn't work well for that market THEN. Lest you forget that DL is the airline which can boast the largest ever single gross profit, in the late 90s?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
panamair
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:13 pm

Another way to look at markets like FRA, BRU, etc. is that these are generally mature markets already with not much additional growth opportunities (at least not the profitable kind one wants); in addition, everybody and their mother wants to be in BRU, or for that matter, Paris, etc. Just look at the number of US carriers that now fly nonstop to BRU - AA, UA, CO, DL, US, and until recently, NW. And now we have 9W, and very soon, in all likelihood, BA (or their alter ego).....Why go into a race-to-the-bottom-in-yields-and-profits fight, when you can get a head start in underserved markets with higher growth potential and very little competition?

With the advent of Open Skies, the US-EU market is going to be a lot less attractive than it once was....the bulk of the growth in future US-EU traffic (the astounding growth that everyone talks about as a result of Open Skies) will mostly be on the lower-yielding end since the premise is that Open Skies will promote competition (and lower fares). DL has learnt through these past few years (painfully, particularly in the domestic market) that market share in some of these markets is simply not worth fighting for, particularly if you are going to lose your shirt in the process...

The 752s will allow Delta (or any other carrier for that matter) to limit the amount of capacity, thus limiting the amount low-yielding traffic needed to fill the plane. Markets like JFK-BRU and JFK-FRA which were hurting up front for DL (DL routinely has some of the most attractive Business fares ex-Germany to the USA in the past) - where many Business seats were going to upgrades and non-Revs will now - will now most likely be some of the toughest to score for upgrades, etc., starting next year as a result of the dramatic reduction in premium cabin capacity (from 35 to 15 J seats),
 
panamair
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Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:43 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 31):
From JFK, not very. Since purchasing the PA routes, DL has struggled to make money at JFK particularly on routes with stiff competition. JFK was routinely a loser and DL management had considered shrinking JFK down to nothing more than a focus city with maybe 30-40 flights.

Frankly, I don't think DL back in the '90s knew what to do with JFK and the 'scary' New Yorkers...they had a sense that they wanted a stronger European presence (hence the PA route acquisition) but when push came to shove, those genteel Southerners didn't really want to (or maybe didn't know how to deal with Sodom up north. So they basically let it drift...cut some, add some, etc. Until desparate times hit, and they had to seriously sit down and look at various opportunities. Having a new management team in place (that had participated in developing CO's EWR hub) didn't hurt either...

Finally now for the first time in years, DL is making some headway in NY. In the past 9 months or so, they have finally established a foothold in the JFK transcon market, for example....This is the first Fall I believe that DL has been able to maintain up to 6 flights a day (weekdays) between JFK and LAX. After years of chasing the leisure NY market, DL has finally gotten aggressive about courting the NY corporate market as well....

When asked recently by an analyst what THE success story was for Delta these past few months or past year, Glen Hauenstein, head of Rev mgmt and network planning routinely mentions the significant improvement in DL's JFK RASM and yields (in the double digits, year-over-year).

[Edited 2007-10-21 15:08:38]

[Edited 2007-10-21 15:09:29]
 
777gk
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:42 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 32):
SNN/DUB/MAN - lower yielding markets where 35J doesn't make sense...and a 767 is too much airplane. CO ops 757s into all three as well...no one said they downsized EWR in doing so...

CO operated 757s to Ireland from Day 1, and when MAN went back to 757 (after it was DC-10/777 for quite some time) service it was upgraded to 2x daily. Any time equipment substitutions have been for larger airplanes, capacity has rarely, if ever, been downsized at all.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 33):
The simple reason is that DL is virtually alone among US carriers in that it does not feel a need to dominate routes into its partner's hubs.

A strategy CO also employs with some degree of success. Take a look at routes from EWR/IAH (EWR especially) to competitor hubs, and you'll see mostly 737-500 service. A presence is maintained in the market with full-size equipment and solid frequency, but yields can be protected by checking capacity.

An effective practice, IMO, to markets in which profit potential can be limited.
 
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STT757
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 32):
SNN/DUB/MAN - lower yielding markets where 35J doesn't make sense...and a 767 is too much airplane. CO ops 757s into all three as well...no one said they downsized EWR in doing so...

Big difference, DL replaces a single 767-300 flight with a single 757-200 (1 for 1).

When CO replaces a widebody on a Trans-Atlantic route with a 757 they replace the single daily widebody flight with a double daily 757, CO switches out 757s for 767s and 777s because they want to launch new routes out of the 757s range. CO operating 757s in place of widebodies is not an indicator of poor performance (as with DL), rather CO's dramatic widebody shortage.)

Here's a comparison:

CO Summer Trans-Atlantic flights from EWR with more than one daily frequency;

Amsterdam 2 (757, 767-400)
Dublin 2 (757)
Edinburgh 2 (757)
Glasglow 2 (757)
Lisbon 2]/b] (757)
London Gatwick [b]3
(2 757, 1 777)
Madrid 2 (1757, 1 767-400)
Manchester UK 2 (757)
Paris 3 (2 757, 1 777)
Rome 2 (767-200, 767-400)
Shannon 2 (757)
Tel Aviv 2 (777)

DL Summer Trans-Atlantic flights from JFK with more than one daily frequency;

London Gatwick 2 (767-300)
Rome 2 (767-300)
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Evan767
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:50 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 38):
DL Summer Trans-Atlantic flights from JFK with more than one daily frequency;

London Gatwick 2 (767-300)

Heathrow will operate as 2x 767-300. LGW will operate as 1x 767-300.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
ikramerica
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:31 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 26):
Part of the reason for the 752 on JFK-CDG I suspect is because of the split next summer of Paris traffic between JFK-CDG and JFK-ORY.

Yep.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 33):
DL's network is about OVERFLYING hubs, not dumping seats onto another carrier's network.

This is the key. DL is opening more routes from JFK and ATL to the EU secondary cities, when they used to carry pax to the main airports like CDG and FRA to then transfer to other flights on other carriers.

This is the whole basis for the belief that while trunk routes between major airports between nations with basically one or two desirable destination will remain viable for VLAs, other routes will actually down-size as more non-stop routes are added to secondary airports and as more airlines are allowed to compete on each route.

DL and CO both are blanketing the EU with flights, but they can't invent demand on these routes without decreasing demand on the traditional trunk routes in the process. Or if they don't downsize the traditional trunk routes, they will have to attract customers by lowering prices, damaging yields. In time, some of those flights may be flown on larger planes again as more demand for that city evolves, but it's not immediate.

CO and DL can't open all these new cities in the EU without temporarily decreasing demand on other routes. So it makes sense that the routes are downsized after the holiday season.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:40 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 38):
CO switches out 757s for 767s and 777s because they want to launch new routes out of the 757s range. CO operating 757s in place of widebodies is not an indicator of poor performance (as with DL), rather CO's dramatic widebody shortage.)

Weird, I could have sworn that Delta was also using the 757s to free up 767s for routes that are of their 757's range as well, you know, like JFK-DKR-CPT/NBO, guess I must have that wrong...
 
L1011Lover
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:55 am

I'm aware of the fact that times have changed, operating environment has changed, that JFK lost it's role as THE US gateway airport... etc., etc., etc. !!! However I find it weird, strange (yeah I know the facts and the reasons why, but still... ) and sad that obviously no US carrier is able to make FRA-JFK a success.

Just remember the times when we had daily 747 service on TWA, twice daily 747 service on Pan Am plus 747/DC-10 service on Lufthansa.

Even in the mid 90's we still had Delta twice daily (767-300ER/L1011-500) on the FRA-JFK route, TWA daily (L1011-100 and later 767-200ER) service in addition to LH's flights and CO's 747/DC-10 service to EWR.

Now we have a daily DL flight on the 767-300ER to JFK and CO to EWR on 777 or 767-400 and soon we'll be down to a single 757 flight on a US carrier from FRA to JFK and one flight (on CO) to EWR. A single 757 flight in 2007 compared to several daily 747 flights 20 years ago. To me it seems like moving backwards... lol... like in the early 60's when you had a single 707 flight...

It's sad how times have changed. I miss the good old days.  Sad

Where have we come to... As much as I love the 757 I prefer a widebody on an international transalantic flight even if it's just a short hop to JFK.

Best regards

L1011Lover
 
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OA412
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:16 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 41):
Weird, I could have sworn that Delta was also using the 757s to free up 767s for routes that are of their 757's range as well, you know, like JFK-DKR-CPT/NBO, guess I must have that wrong...

Funny I had that very same feeling. I guess I just dreamt about reading that press release where DL announced all those new routes.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 38):
CO Summer Trans-Atlantic flights from EWR with more than one daily frequency;

Funny that you conveniently forgot to mention that of those 9 cities, all but 3 are served only from EWR. In fact, of all the cities that CO serves in Europe, all but LGW, CDG, and AMS are flown exclusively from EWR. As you well know, DL serves a much higher proportion of European cities from both JFK and ATL (and to a much lesser extent CVG) eliminating the need for DL to offer multiple daily flights from JFK to each European destination. CO has to offer multiple dailies from EWR because they do not have another hub also handling a very large number of daily US-Europe flights.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
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STT757
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:36 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 41):
Weird, I could have sworn that Delta was also using the 757s to free up 767s for routes that are of their 757's range as well, you know, like JFK-DKR-CPT/NBO, guess I must have that wrong...

Here's how you are wrong;

DL replaces a single 767-300 with a 757-200 (obvious big decrease in capacity).

CO replaces a 767 or 777-200 with double daily 757s, not such a dramatic change in capacity on a route.

There's not one instance where CO replaced a widebody with a 757 on a 1 for 1 basis as DL is doing with AMS, BRU, and FRA, CO always doubles the frequency when switching a 757 for a widebody.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:51 pm

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 42):
obviously no US carrier is able to make FRA-JFK a success.

...how do you come to that conclusion?

Quoting STT757 (Reply 44):
DL replaces a single 767-300 with a 757-200 (obvious big decrease in capacity).
CO replaces a 767 or 777-200 with double daily 757s, not such a dramatic change in capacity on a route.

As has been mentioned before, for nearly all Euro cities, New York is the only gateway through which CO is capable of getting pax. That, and Houston's three Euro destinations have maintained the same capacity for years.

DL on the other hand has recently upgauged several Euro cities to 764ER, plans on doing more, and is engaging in a J/V wherewithin much of their capacity can be shifted to
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
David_itl
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:57 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 32):
SNN/DUB/MAN - lower yielding markets where 35J doesn't make sense...and a 767 is too much airplane. CO ops 757s into all three as well

BA seem to be doing an adequate job filling a 767 on MAN-JFK (even if it's in the wrong configuration). They were doing the same when it was in the right configuration. DL going to 757 will hopefully see loads in general perkling up to over 60%!
 
ScottB
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:00 pm

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 42):
Now we have a daily DL flight on the 767-300ER to JFK and CO to EWR on 777 or 767-400 and soon we'll be down to a single 757 flight on a US carrier from FRA to JFK and one flight (on CO) to EWR. A single 757 flight in 2007 compared to several daily 747 flights 20 years ago. To me it seems like moving backwards... lol... like in the early 60's when you had a single 707 flight...

Except that 20-25 years ago, JFK-FRA carried far more passengers who were connecting at one or both ends. These days, nearly 20 U.S. airports have daily non-stops to Germany while no fewer than seven German airports also have (peak) daily transatlantic service. To reach Berlin or Hamburg, there's no longer a need to connect at FRA. To reach Orlando from Germany, there are far more alternative routings now that don't involve a FRA-JFK flight. Fragmentation is alive and well between the U.S. and Germany, which has led to major-gateway-to-major-gateway flying being deemphasized in favor of major-gateway-to-secondary-airport flying. That's why CO has had success with routes like EWR-CGN while Delta does well with ATL-STR.

A far greater percentage of the people on JFK-FRA flights these days are actually going from New York to the region around Frankfurt.
 
hush-kit
Posts: 107
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:23 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 22):
Widebody comfort? Ancient history.......and DL's 762s were non-ER models and not ETOPS airplanes, thus they did not and could not fly transatlantic services.

First, thanks for all the detailed information...But I do have a diiferent point of view, many -especially biz- pax prefer wide-bodies to narrow-ones. The reason that biz on CO-757 is almost fully booked is they only are able to offer 16 of these seats. AND another reason to go wide-body over the big pond is simply that you do not have to fear whether your 757 will make it to it's final destination or if your travel plans skip cause of an unplanned fuel-stop, which costs time and makes you not to catch your booked connnection. I 've done some over the pond on a 757, my last one was on US 751 (BRU-PHL), and exactly that happened, that PHL required holding patterns, and we had to refuel first at Atlantic city ( "we don't have that extra fuel for holding patterns", that's what the flight deck announced) and head back to PHL. To bring it to the point: Time will show, if pax (esp. biz) accept a narrow-body on a long haul service. Regards, Chris
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 4706
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RE: DL Downsizing JFK->Europe

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 44):

please read the above posts

Quoting OA412 (Reply 43):
Funny that you conveniently forgot to mention that of those 9 cities, all but 3 are served only from EWR. In fact, of all the cities that CO serves in Europe, all but LGW, CDG, and AMS are flown exclusively from EWR. As you well know, DL serves a much higher proportion of European cities from both JFK and ATL (and to a much lesser extent CVG) eliminating the need for DL to offer multiple daily flights from JFK to each European destination. CO has to offer multiple dailies from EWR because they do not have another hub also handling a very large number of daily US-Europe flights.



Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 42):
compared to several daily 747 flights 20 years ago

but dont forget DL did have a hub in FRA(which they got from PA) now they just fly to FRA from ATL,CVG and JFK
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