sebring
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Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:11 am

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...20.RTICKER20-6/TPStory/?query=Q400

Bombardier Inc., the world's third-largest plane maker, may add a larger version of its Q400 turboprop to compete with rivals' jets on commuter routes, an executive said. The Montreal-based company is studying a model with 90 to 95 seats that "would have commonality with the Q400," Philippe Poutissou, Bombardier's director of airline analysis, said yesterday at an aviation conference in Cannes, France. The plane now carries a maximum of 78 passengers. The Q400 is popular among regional airlines trying to pare jet fuel costs on short-haul flights. A bigger Q400 may spur airlines to pick a turboprop over jets of similar capacity, creating a "new market where there was never turboprop planes in the past," Mr. Poutissou said. Bombardier aims to introduce the model in 2011, he said. BBD.B (TSX) fell 20 cents to $5.52.

[Edited 2007-10-20 21:12:38]
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:19 am

I hope they plan on jacking up the gear to make the bird taller so it can actually rotate on take-off.
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panam330
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:24 am

If they can make it work, it will be insanely economical. Ideal for short hops like BOS-NYC or PHL-WAS (in terms of economics, not traffic flow). In this day and age, as much as I enjoy the roar of a jet engine, I'd rather see an airline choose something more economical than a CRJ (not hard to do  Wink). Bravo to Bombardier for trying something new! I certainly hope they pursue it, and airlines jump on it!  Smile
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:41 am

So why not simply call it the Q500?
Good idea tho! It would indeed be very cheap to run per seat.
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2H4
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:42 am

Quoting Sebring (Thread starter):
Bombardier May Stretch Q400

Bloody hell....any longer, and the pax will need a moving sidewalk to get to the rearmost seats:


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flyf15
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:48 am

It'd be kind of interesting if this aircraft was built. Most airline contracts in the US require an aircraft type of this size to be flown by the mainline carrier. I'd be a return of props flown by the majors for the first time in decades....
 
Tornado82
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:51 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 4):

Bloody hell....any longer, and the pax will need a moving sidewalk to get to the rearmost seats:

It might look long in its fake pic, but in reality it will still be a few rows shorter than E190/195 aircraft.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:54 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 4):

If that aircraft is gonna be that long, they are going to have to borrow the 757's 'chicken legs'!!!!
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Mach3
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:54 am

The day of the RJ is going fast. Bomb is trying to milk the cow as much as it can for as much money as they can get because their day is ending!!!!! Stretching the Q400 just may be carryong a good thing to far.
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2H4
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:07 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 6):
It might look long in its fake pic, but in reality it will still be a few rows shorter than E190/195 aircraft.

Oh, I'm aware the fake pic is a gross exaggeration, but I still think a stretched Q400 will look unbelievably long....particularly when parked next to a 100 or 200 series. It would be like seeing a CRJ-900 parked next to a Challenger.  Smile

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 5):
I'd be a return of props flown by the majors for the first time in decades....

Here's hoping Lockheed-Martin will introduce a modernized Electra with 8-blade props, a la the new Hawkeyes...  crossfingers 

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OHLHD
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:21 am

I guess they won´t get SAS as an launch customer  duck  Big grin

That aircraft will definitely look like a loooong sausage.  Smile
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:24 am

The new version will have to be around 10 feet longer to get 4 more rows (16 more pax) in. The landing gear and engine nacelles will certainly have to be redesigned to make it work.
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ikramerica
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:36 am

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 1):
I hope they plan on jacking up the gear to make the bird taller so it can actually rotate on take-off.

They can add most of the length ahead of the wings, which of course could lead to making the plane nose heavy during flight. But if they also couple it with some weight saving measures for the front end and redistribution of weight of some systems toward the rear, they may be able to balance it out, mostly.
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HorizonGirl
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:58 am

Didn't they announce this a while ago? Sounds like a pretty good idea to me.
I think the only reason why it would look long is because of the comparison to the 100 and 200 series.

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PavlovsDog
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:49 am

I think a prop that size could be a winner. Whether a stretch of the Dash 8 even more is the best solution is another question.

Personally I'd rather see them launch the C-Series and use the cockpit and fuselage from that aircraft with different wing boxes for the jets (low wing) and prop (high wing). Having a family of six aircraft in the 90-110-130 seat ranges could be a winner.
 
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ASMD11
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:53 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
They can add most of the length ahead of the wings, which of course could lead to making the plane nose heavy during flight.

The Q400 already tends to be nose heavy during flight, so I would think that any stretch would need to be at or aft of the wings so that it wouldn't be even more so.
 
columba
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:49 am

I think there would be some more work needed than just a simple stretch. I guess they will need a larger wing and a new gear, too. But I like the idea and if they get customers for it why not. Every plane that does not look like an E-Jet or A320 is more than welcome  Smile
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Cessna172RG
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:11 am

I'm going to think outside of the box...

Instead of making these beasties longer...why not just widen the fuselage to allow for one more seat so that the seating is at 2-3 instead of the already cramped 2-2? Sure, it'll allow commuters to experience the cabin of a DC-9, but it would cut down on making that gooney any longer than it already is...

Might have to set up the gear like an ATR-42/72 to make it work but it seems to make sense. If you get these birds any longer, you'll need retro thrusters to get the thing to lift off as it won't be able to properly rotate. Q4's already look wierd enough when trying to flare...then again, they don't actually flare. They just keep floating down the runway to bleed off airspeed until all the tires finally decide to hit...at a fairly parallel pitch to the runway.
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PADSpot
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:50 am

Quoting Cessna172RG (Reply 18):
why not just widen the fuselage to allow for one more seat so that the seating is at 2-3 instead of the already cramped 2-2?

Because it poses a much more severe change of the Q400s design and would have much more serious implications. You would end up with an entirely different product, with all the risks and costs involved. Just lengthening it is a much cheaper and lower-risk untertaking.
 
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:47 pm

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 5):
It'd be kind of interesting if this aircraft was built. Most airline contracts in the US require an aircraft type of this size to be flown by the mainline carrier. I'd be a return of props flown by the majors for the first time in decades.

Actually, that's in regards to jet a/c. Scope clauses have involved regional jet a/c not turboprop a/c. They limit the size of a/c and in some cases the number of regional jets that can be used.
 
Olympus69
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:46 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 4):
Bloody hell....any longer, and the pax will need a moving sidewalk to get to the rearmost seats:

They say great minds think alike. That was my thought while trudging back to row 54 on a B773 - and there were still several rows behind that  Smile
 
davidkunzVIE
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:10 pm

Sounds like the kind of plane that OS/VO might need.
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WestJetYQQ
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:20 am

The plane would surely need some extra structural reinforcement to prevent it from say......splitting in half?
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gigneil
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:18 am

I'd really think about making the existing plane work correctly before a stretch like that.

I do really think its a good idea, however. Props are fantastic.

NS
 
alangirvan
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:27 am

Will the intention be to keep the field performance of the Q400 so that the new version can use Toronto Island? Any chance of the Economical cruise speed being increased a bit?



A few years ago, when Dornier brought out the Jet version of the Do328, their comparison was that the Do328JET was the better plane on distances of more than 300 miles. The Do328 turboprop was quite a fast cruiser at the time (early 1990s).

Economics have changed since the early 90s, are there any studies to show when you should prefer the Q400 or Q400+ over the CRJ-900 or CRJ-1000? There will be some airlines who will have both planes in the same fleet. Will the Q400+ (Q500) have an advantage up to 400 or 500 miles?
 
2H4
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:31 am

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 19):
Scope clauses have involved regional jet a/c not turboprop a/c.

Wow, if such an aircraft could effectively bypass scope clauses, it seems like that would be a selling point right there.

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 20):
They say great minds think alike. That was my thought while trudging back to row 54 on a B773 - and there were still several rows behind that

Let's take it a step further (no pun intended) and introduce an onboard tram for future long versions of the A380.

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HermansCVR580
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:34 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 9):
Here's hoping Lockheed-Martin will introduce a modernized Electra with 8-blade props, a la the new Hawkeyes

Hey I will second that idea!!! Highly doubtful but would be a neat idea. I would love to see a modern version of the Convair 580 maybe the Convair 5800 stretch but with new engines maybe the 6 bladed props like the Hawkeye is using?? Hey Kelwona Flighcraft are you taking notes??
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Aircellist
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:43 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 9):
Here's hoping Lockheed-Martin will introduce a modernized Electra with 8-blade props, a la the new Hawkeyes...  

Here's regretting that they could no longer make L-1649 Starliners with turboprops... That would be nice!!!

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 14):
Personally I'd rather see them launch the C-Series and use the cockpit and fuselage from that aircraft with different wing boxes for the jets (low wing) and prop (high wing). Having a family of six aircraft in the 90-110-130 seat ranges could be a winner.

Looks interesting, to my profane eye... In fact, I always find that the CRJ and Dash-8 look so much alike; I wondered if such a hybrid beast could be done... ?
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rampart
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting HermansCVR580 (Reply 26):
Hey I will second that idea!!! Highly doubtful but would be a neat idea. I would love to see a modern version of the Convair 580 maybe the Convair 5800 stretch but with new engines maybe the 6 bladed props like the Hawkeye is using?? Hey Kelwona Flighcraft are you taking notes??

Did you mean this, which already exists (apart from 6-bladed props)?

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2H4
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 27):
Here's regretting that they could no longer make L-1649 Starliners with turboprops... That would be nice!!!

I wonder how efficient (when compared with modern designs) that fuselage is, aerodynamically. Say, for example, the fuselage shape of the Starliner was precisely duplicated. Maybe use a more modern/efficient nose and cockpit window setup, install a new wing, and maybe even an updated tail, but stick with that curvy fuselage shape. I wonder if it would perform better or worse than a simple cylinder. AeroWeanie or OldAeroGuy....what do you think?

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Zkpilot
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:15 am

QF has just announced an order for another 12 Q400 (not the Q400+/Q500 however).
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silentbob
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:18 am

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 19):
Actually, that's in regards to jet a/c. Scope clauses have involved regional jet a/c not turboprop a/c. They limit the size of a/c and in some cases the number of regional jets that can be used.

I know at least one scope clause that allows regional jets to be larger than turboprops.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:32 am

I dont know what happened to my question earlier about QX ordering some, maybe it was a forum glitch. But if this plane does actually get built, will QX be interested in this stretched DH8, perhaps?
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milesrich
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:39 am

The lack of a constant width and tubular fuselage was one reason the DC-6/7 outsold the Connies. That is why the Electra had a more conventional fuselage design. It would be nice to see the Electra fuselage stretched and turned into a 100-150 passenger short range aircraft designed for routes under 400 miles, that would be competitive with jets, but the traveling public has adversion to propellers, and the frequency of commuter airline accidents with props was much greater than that with jets. But an airplane with 5 across coach seating, and comfort of the L-188 would be a welcome relief. Plus jets don't operate at the higher speeds close to 600 mph that they once did.
 
2H4
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:07 am

Quoting Milesrich (Reply 33):
the traveling public has adversion to propellers, and the frequency of commuter airline accidents with props was much greater than that with jets.

I think these factors were more applicable in the past. Today, crashes like Pinnacle 3701 and Comair 5191 are fresher in people's minds than those involving turboprops. How often do you hear Air Midwest 5481 (Beech 1900, 21 fatalities) brought up?

People will continue forgetting about turboprop accidents. As small turboprops are replaced with "regional" jets, the likelihood of turboprop accidents will decrease, and the likelihood of jet accidents will, proportionally, increase, provided other factors remain constant.

Similarly, I think the aversion to propellers is quite dated. Back when the public's impression of propeller-driven aircraft involved piston-driven radial engines hung on DC-6s and Convairs, their aversion was somewhat justified. Engine failures, fires, etc, were much more commonplace. Today, I believe their aversion to propeller-driven aircraft has more to do with the small size of the aircraft (and possibly the noise) than the powerplants themselves.

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HermansCVR580
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:31 pm

Quoting Rampart (Reply 28):
Did you mean this, which already exists (apart from 6-bladed props)?

Yeah that is the Convair 5800. I knew it already exists but what I meant was to build a new airframe 0 time on it with updated turboprops. I'm not sure that if when Kelwona stretches the Convair that it is consider a new airframe with 0 time on it or not? I know that they take a section out of one Convair and place it into another. I see it holds 79 people now so that could be the 100 series then they should come out with on that holds 95-100 people and that could be the 200 series?? Not sure if it would fly though with only two props, if thats the case then you might has well build the Lockheed Electra. Just in todays day and age with high gas prices two engines are better then four.
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9252fly
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:00 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 25):
Wow, if such an aircraft could effectively bypass scope clauses, it seems like that would be a selling point right there.

I can't speak for other airlines,but the AC scope clause does not apply to turbo-props.
 
NZ8800
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RE: Bombardier May Stretch Q400 For 90-95 Seats

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:26 am

It would be interesting to see a stretched Q400 - but as other people have said, I think it would either have to have ATR72 style landing gear, or be raised further off the ground - which may need to happen anyway.
The travelling public might be a bit unrealistic about turboprops and their apparent safety - but they are much more economical for short stage routes, and the public will just have to take what they can get!
As oil prices rise, turboprops will become more important than ever before.
And also - in a country like mine where most regional airports have runways around the 1300m mark - they can get into smaller airports than a jet of equivalent size - which is one of the many reasons Air New Zealand/Air Nelson bought Q300s rather than CRJs.

Meanwhile, it would be great to see a turboprop Constellation but sadly, I can't see it working. Beautiful aircraft though!
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