marcusair
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Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:45 pm

I am curious to know if a Passenger asked someone what is being carried below them in the Cargo hold If the airline is obligated to tell them, do they have to reveal what is being carried? I am asking this because in my business I am Importing Cobras, Vipers, Scorpions, Trantulas, Crocidiles and a number of other deadly creatures. Now obviously the cargo that I receive is within a double shipping crate and each Specimen Is enclosed in a rubbermaid container (I Import animals for trade, zoos and reaserch centers) But If someone asked say a flight attendant if there was any possible danger in the cargo being shipped if they would have to tell them or if they have a "tight lip" policy.
 
aussiestu
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:49 pm

Nine times out of ten we dont know whats down there. We would have to actually read the Cargo docs to know whats there unless the loader comes and tells us and then its only because its something unusual. I dont think we have any legal obligation or right to tell anyone whats down there, I do like it when dogs bark as despite feeling sorry for them at least you know they are ok?
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:05 pm

Quoting Marcusair (Thread starter):
I am curious to know if a Passenger asked someone what is being carried below them in the Cargo hold If the airline is obligated to tell them, do they have to reveal what is being carried?

No.

Your contract of carriage with the airline doesn't include a right to know what everything else on the airplane is doing. You don't have a right to know what's in the cargo hold any more than you have a right to know the identity or final destination of your fellow passengers.

Tom.
 
marcusair
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:27 pm

Good, Because I wouldn't want passangers to find out that on a SA or a BA flight or even an AC flight to find out that they are carring enough venomus animals to do serious damage to at least half the passangers. I worried for a while to see if there was an alternate way to get these animals out of Africa Etc. But according to the African Government all Venomus Animal MUST be transported by air, But I still fear on every shipment that they will get loose, I am constantly checking diffrent sites to make sure that nothing like that happens because once they leave the Ground they are my responcibility.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting Marcusair (Reply 3):
Good, Because I wouldn't want passangers to find out that on a SA or a BA flight or even an AC flight to find out that they are carring enough venomus animals to do serious damage to at least half the passangers.

Well, I'm not aware that there is anything preventing the operator from telling a passenger, just that the passenger doesn't have a right to demand it if the operator doesn't want to tell them. If it's important to you that your carrier actively does not disclose the contents of your shipment to passengers, you might want to talk with them and see if you can get that as part of your contract. However, they're under no obligation to provide such a service (that I'm aware of) and they'd certainly have to disclose the cargo contents to customs and other authorities, if asked.

Tom.
 
marcusair
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:01 am

Thanks, I will do that, My "supplies" come out of Tanzania, Congo, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Northern Australia and Brazil and everything goes directly to YYZ before it comes to me at YVR, I will speak to the people that catch and breed these items and let them know not to reveil the contents of the crates except to the people that need to know such as the Pilots and cargo Handlers.
 
jhooper
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:44 am

Rest assured that any hazardous cargo carried onboard your flight is strictly regulated to exacting standards. Unless you see a box being loaded on your flight that says "CARGO AIRCRAFT ONLY", I wouldn't worry about it.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
AirNZ
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:41 pm

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 4):
However, they're under no obligation to provide such a service (that I'm aware of) and they'd certainly have to disclose the cargo contents to customs and other authorities, if asked.

Customs is a different thing completely to what the OP was asking....namely disclosure to other pax....and it obviously without question that Customs would know!! As for other authorities, that actually depends on who they are and for what reason. Just being one of the 'authorities' does not necessarily give an automatic right to disclosure of information.
Flown:F27/TU134/Viscount/Trident/BAC111/727/737/747/757/767/777/300/310/320/321/330/340/DC9/DC10/Dash8/Shorts330/BAe146
 
tsnamm
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:34 pm

Quoting Marcusair (Reply 3):
Good, Because I wouldn't want passangers to find out that on a SA or a BA flight or even an AC flight to find out that they are carring enough venomus animals to do serious damage to at least half the passangers.

1st they would have to get loose...and then they would have to find their way into the passenger cabin...frannkly its no big deal...a friend of mine used to work for Flying Tigers at JFK , and they used to move Ringling Bros. circus...one day as they were opening the main deck door to remove the pallets containing some animal cages they noticed a tiger lying on top of its cage!!! Someone forgot to close it properly and the tiger got out in mid flight! Thats something to worry about!! lol
 
pilotboi
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:46 pm

Quoting Jhooper (Reply 6):
Rest assured that any hazardous cargo carried onboard your flight is strictly regulated to exacting standards

Exactly - the passengers shouldn't have to worry about it. And as stated before, the company reserves the right not to give that information out, even if the crew had access to it. Usually the crew only knows weights and if it's live or not. Even us as ground crew don't know what is being shipped sometimes. But while we're on the subject, I thought I'd share some unusal things I've taken out of or put into a cargo bin:

* HRs (Human Remains) - everything from really small ones to really large ones
* "Empty child casket" - happy that it was empty - but sad knowing it was going to be used eventually
* Live Fish, tropical fish too!
* "Harmless Reptiles" - don't know what kind - but they were alive
* Non-vemoness phytons
* Live dogs and cats
* Horse seman (5+ gallons at a time)
* Flowers (lots of them at a time)

Nothing too out of the ordinary, but you never know what's below you! Of course, there's nothing to worry about either.  Smile
 
Maverick623
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:51 pm

Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 9):
I thought I'd share some unusal things I've taken out of or put into a cargo bin:

* HRs (Human Remains) - everything from really small ones to really large ones

Not as unusual as you think. I usually upload/offload one at least twice a week.

Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 9):
"Empty child casket" - happy that it was empty - but sad knowing it was going to be used eventually

I had a newborn HR come off once. I damn near lost my composure, because it was totally unexpected.

Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 9):
Live Fish, tropical fish too!

Every friggen night from BOS. I hate that flight.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Maverick623
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:53 pm

Sorry, I meant to say tropical fish from TPA! The good old seafood from comes from BOS. More old than good, but ya know  Wink
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
marcusair
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:57 pm

Well, I make doubly sure that the cargo is sealed, as I mentioned it is in a wood crate and inside that wood crate is another crate and inside that crate the reptiles are in rubbermaid containers, so as you said they would have to get out and if you think about it, the flight is usually about 27 hours, it would take probably 4 hours for a cobra to figure out a way to get out of the rubbermaid container, and then another 12 hours to figure out a way to escape from the interior crat and then another 8 hours to get free.......So I will apoloigize now to all the AC cargo workers at YVR who may come face to face with a cobra and I apoligize for the death that you may suffer, lol  Wink  angel 
I import everything from scorpions to Giraffes for zoos across north america, I have yet to import any kind of large animal but I have a question.................................If it ever happened, How the hell would I transport a Giraffe on a plane?!?!?  scratchchin 
 
pilotboi
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:21 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
Not as unusual as you think. I usually upload/offload one at least twice a week.

I meant unusual to civilians. We've have at least one HR per day at DAB. In fact, HRs are what accounts for a majority of the cargo in and out of DAB.

Quoting Marcusair (Reply 12):
How the hell would I transport a Giraffe on a plane?!?!?

Get a Beluga (A300-600ST)!  Silly I think that'd be the only a/c with a hold big enough. Most cargo a/c have dividers seperating the floors. So unless the giraffe can lie down, not gunna work. But even if you have an airplane big enough, I doubt that would be a good idea, lol.
 
APYu
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:32 pm

As a passenger Id settle for knowing what the airline puts in the damn food.
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:26 pm

Quoting APYu (Reply 14):
As a passenger Id settle for knowing what the airline puts in the damn food.

Glorified frozen dinners. Just remember to check the expiration on the fun boxes!
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Pope
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:28 pm

Quoting Jhooper (Reply 6):
Rest assured that any hazardous cargo carried onboard your flight is strictly regulated to exacting standards. Unless you see a box being loaded on your flight that says "CARGO AIRCRAFT ONLY", I wouldn't worry about it.

I wonder if the passengers on Valujet Flight 592 agree with you on that statement.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:31 pm

Quoting Marcusair (Reply 3):
according to the African Government all Venomus Animal MUST be transported by air,

The African Government ? Just the one ?  rotfl 

(There are over 50 countries in Africa).
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
PanHAM
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Carg

Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:59 pm

My first ractiuon was - it is non of their friggin business.

Simply and clearly NO.

Lots of reasons for that.

First one - air cargo is safe. It is handled by profesionals who know what they are doing. Regardless if it is FAK or DGR or whatever class else.

Second, data protection. A cargo manifest can eveal details which are not for the general public. As an exporting company, I would not want my competitor, who might happen to sit upstairs, give first hand data on my shipments in the freight hold..

Third - handing out such information would stretch the intellectual limits of a large percentage of the passengers.

I could give more reasons but it was a tough day and I close it out in my Hotel room now.

Feed them with pretzels and/or drinks and don't have them worry about things they would not understand anyway.
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XXXX10
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:13 pm

Is there any access to the cabin form the cargo hold? If not then (as far as nasty animls are concerned) ther is no danger.

As a pax I trust that the a/c is loaded in accordance with the regulations and that there is nothing on board that should not be there.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:22 pm

I think where some people would have problems is when hazardous materials like nuclear medical supplies, computer batteries, fire hazardous like perfumes (alcohol) and so on, but most probably they couldn't be on a pax a/c anyway.
 
pilotboi
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:46 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 16):
I wonder if the passengers on Valujet Flight 592 agree with you on that statement.

You have a point there. Basically you have to trust that the ground crew are smarter then that. But informing the passengers of what is in the cargo bins can't stop something like that from happening. If anything, it'll make passengers say "no, I'm not going to fly with that on board". But that's the same as if you told them that the aircraft could stall and fall out of the sky if the pilots are incapable of flying, or something like that. People know that there are risks when you go flying. But everyone also knows the probability of getting in an air accident. And then after that, think about the number of stories you have heard about airplane crashes or even incidents due to something wrong with the cargo (other then Valujet 592).

Quoting XXXX10 (Reply 19):
Is there any access to the cabin form the cargo hold?

For a person, or a small animal?  Silly
 
XXXX10
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:40 am

Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 21):
For a person, or a small animal?

For either , I was always under the impression that it is not possible to acess the hold in-flight and that all of the scenes on films where one or more charactors goes into the hold where pure fiction
 
MSYPI7185
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:57 am

No the airline does not have to tell you what is in the cargo hold.
Most of the time the flight crew does not know anyway unless it is Haz. Mat. (certain items are allowed) that the Captain must be notified of. And live animals of course, otherwise we do not bother them.
Also our flights frequently carry Currency for the Federal Reserve and this information is kept under wraps as much as possible, until the passengers sometimes see us on/off loading it. What a pain in the aXX! Nothing like 2500lbs of $100 or 5000 lbs of $1, $5, $10, $20 or $50's.
 
DABZF
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Carg

Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:53 am

I believe that 9 out of 10 "normal" passengers isn't even aware that there is cargo carried underneath them.

Often when I tell people that I work for a cargo airline they think that I'm a baggage handler!  no 
When told that there is actually cargo loaded into the bellies of a passenger aircraft they always go like "oh really?"

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 23):
Most of the time the flight crew does not know anyway unless it is Haz. Mat. (certain items are allowed) that the Captain must be notified of. And live animals of course, otherwise we do not bother them.

 checkmark 

One of the funniest thing happen when LH was flying a 737 Quick Change into HEL... I was flying into HEL on the aircraft and we were delayed on arrival so the turn around and version change had to be done very quickly.
As soon as the last pax was out of the cabin the loaders were already opening the cargo door... the look on some faces was priceles  Wow! and they were pointing at the opening cargo door in disbelief. I tried to explain to a group of men that they actually take the seats out of the aircraft and load the cargo containers (that were waiting on the otherside of our ramp bus) into the aircraft and then they will fly to CGN via ARN as a freighter. I don't think any of the guys actually believed me... "no way" was the general comment. Too bad the bus drove away from the aircraft before the first seat pallet was coming out of the aircraft...
I like driving backwards in the fog cause it doesn't remind me of anything - Chris Cornell
 
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BreninTW
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:05 am

Quoting DABZF (Reply 24):
they actually take the seats out of the aircraft and load the cargo containers (that were waiting on the otherside of our ramp bus) into the aircraft and then they will fly to CGN via ARN as a freighter

So what happens to the seats in a situation like this? Some how they have to meet up again with the A/C at some point ... does the A/C fly HEL - ARN - CGN - HEL as a freighter and then HEL - wherever as a pax A/C? Or are the seats loaded into the belly?
 
ha763
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:12 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
My first ractiuon was - it is non of their friggin business.

My thoughts exactly. We don't ask the pax for a manifest showing what they have packed in their checked bags or carry on. Nor do we require them to reveal the contents of their bags to any pax that asks.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 20):
I think where some people would have problems is when hazardous materials like nuclear medical supplies, computer batteries, fire hazardous like perfumes (alcohol) and so on, but most probably they couldn't be on a pax a/c anyway.

Most pax would be surprised to learn of the kinds of dangerous goods that can be shipped on a pax aircraft and how much can be loaded. The three items you listed can be transported on pax aircraft.
 
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airbuseric
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:00 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 20):
hazardous materials like nuclear medical supplies, computer batteries, fire hazardous like perfumes (alcohol) and so on, but most probably they couldn't be on a pax a/c anyway.

All of above can be transported on passenger aircraft, unless packed to the regulations and with several limitations.
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
 
tsnamm
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:56 pm

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 26):
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 20):
I think where some people would have problems is when hazardous materials like nuclear medical supplies, computer batteries, fire hazardous like perfumes (alcohol) and so on, but most probably they couldn't be on a pax a/c anyway.

Most pax would be surprised to learn of the kinds of dangerous goods that can be shipped on a pax aircraft and how much can be loaded. The three items you listed can be transported on pax aircraft.

exactly...frankly the biggest danger is hazordous materials passengers pack in their baggage not thinking that it cannot be transported by air...once loaded in an inaccesable cargo bin its big trouble...
 
jhooper
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:21 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 16):
I wonder if the passengers on Valujet Flight 592 agree with you on that statement.

I was trying to emphasize the fact that there are rules in place designed to protect the travelling public from hazardous cargo. The rules are very strict and very effective when followed by the 99.99% of operators out there. Obviously, safety depends on the rules being followed, just like for anything else. Unfortunately, deviations have happened and tragedies like 592 are the result. We'd probably never set foot on an aircraft again if we got wrapped around the axle about everything that could possibly happen.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
Leezyjet
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:46 pm

Quoting XXXX10 (Reply 19):
Is there any access to the cabin form the cargo hold? If not then (as far as nasty animls are concerned) ther is no danger.

Generally, not for human sized objects, but for small snake sized objects, then yes on almost every aircraft. Between the outer skin and the inner panelling, this gap just goes down into the cargo bay where there is also another panel protecting the outer skin and the wiring and other stuff behind it so there is enough space for small items/creatures to move between the 2 levels. Generally this is where people drop mobile phones and passports, when they accidentally kick the panel out by their feet then drop something down it. Pain in the ass to find stuff down there too !!.

On some widebodied a/c, it is also possible for humans to access the cargo bays via the emergency exits in the crew rest compartments and also via the equipment bays under the flight deck floor although this depends on what is loaded on the other side of the door. If it was a cargo pallett, then you could get in, but if it was a container, no chance.

Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 13):
Get a Beluga (A300-600ST)! I think that'd be the only a/c with a hold big enough.

The cargo area isn't pressurised on that a/c IIRC, so that Girraffe would have to hold it's breath !!.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
CoolGuy
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:51 pm

Quoting Marcusair (Reply 3):
Good, Because I wouldn't want passangers to find out that ... they are carring enough venomus animals to do serious damage to at least half the passangers.

You obviously saw Snakes on a Plane.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Carg

Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:01 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 16):
I wonder if the passengers on Valujet Flight 592 agree with you on that statement.

I wonder if there was one single pax on board of that flight who would have screamed out when he saw that declaration on the manifest. If it was declared as such at all.

Me and anybody else who had DGR training would indeed have questioned the load, provided it was declared properly. IIRC, the morons who loaded that stuff did not even do that.



Quoting Airbuseric (Reply 27):
All of above can be transported on passenger aircraft, unless packed to the regulations and with several limitations.

Not "unless" biut provided it is properly packed and labeled according to the rules and regulations and has been checked at least three times, by the shipper, the forwarder and the receiving carrier or his handling agent, all of which need qualified and certified personel to do that who signe with their names.

Why should an unqualified passenger have a right to intervene?
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eyflyer88
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 20):
fire hazardous like perfumes (alcohol)

Perfumes were considered non DG pre-9/11, now they are considered DG.. however they fall under Class 9/ID8000, when most airlines hear that they think automatically "why did this become a DG again?". Perfumes are only flammable only if they are either exposed to EXTREME heat or obviously if someone throws a lit match/lighter at them. Now granted that the cargo hold of an airplane is COLD, and the fact that practically no airline allows the usage of cigarettes/lighters on board.. I found it a little silly that Perfumes were classified as DG. A lot of people in the cargo industry that work with the airlines will usually said "It should just be General Cargo again.."

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 28):
exactly...frankly the biggest danger is hazordous materials passengers pack in their baggage not thinking that it cannot be transported by air...once loaded in an inaccesable cargo bin its big trouble...

Yeah, I have always had that philosophy.. you have no idea what kind of things passengers carry in their bags. Many carry perfume/cologne, hairspray, spray on deodorant, etc.. all of which fall under different DG classes YET, each passenger doesnt have to make a Shippers Declaration for Dangerous Goods now do they? Imagine at check-in, "Final Destination and your DG Form please."
There is no sport equal to that which aviators enjoy while being carried through the air on great white wings. - Wilbur
 
marcusair
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 17):

Sorry, I ment the Tanzania Government  banghead 
 
marcusair
Posts: 34
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:28 am

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 30):
The cargo area isn't pressurised on that a/c IIRC, so that Girraffe would have to hold it's breath !!.

I wonder how long a girrafe could hold its breath way up there  Wink But I found out that they are shipped by truck and cargo boats and not on planes.

Quoting CoolGuy (Reply 31):
You obviously saw Snakes on a Plane.

Hell yea, I saw that movie, It was one of the worst movies that I have ever seen, Not to analize the movie or anything............  angel  But, the snakes that were in the crates would have eaten or killed each other especially the Eastern Brown Snake that seeks out its prey......another Eastern brown snake, that is why The snakes are placed in Individual rubbermaid containers, and even though fermones were used to rile the snakes they still wouldn't seek out and attack a human, also on that movie it shows a Anaconda attacking a leg and Injecting Venom.....I would love to Import the Anaconda that has venom considering they are constrictors.
 
Fairchild24
Posts: 90
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RE: Do PAX Have Rights To Know What Is In The Cargo?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:11 pm

Except that you must have one of the kinkiest job around I would say that you are safe,
Just make sure the put your "pets" in one of the compartment that is pressurised
otherwise they would not last very long.
I think the passengers should be glad that they don´t know whats in the cargo bay,
I think your Venom friend is the last thing you have to worry about.

Chers

Göran

P.s I´m glad i´m not in the cargo business D.s
Radial engine does not leak oil, they only mark there territory

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