cinja
Posts: 88
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Runway Incursion At KIX Oct. 20th Involving AC

Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:31 am

News reports indicate that an Air Canada 767 accidentally entered the runway at KIX while a JAL plane was on approach, forcing the JAL plane to do a go-around. Looks like the AC pilot didn't follow instructions too well.

In English: http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20071022a4.html

In Japanese: http://www.nikkei.co.jp/kansai/news/news000602.html (with a nice little diagram of the incident).

It happened Saturday night just after 6 pm, so probably too dark for anyone to have noticed from the observation hall, unless they were listening to the tower.

CinJA
 
ktachiya
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RE: Runway Incursion At KIX Oct. 20th Involving AC

Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:13 am

Quite interesting. I was spotting from Maya (final VOR to enter the ILS approach for 24L/24R) on that day and saw AC 36 land from Vancouver. It was about 50 minutes late and I can see that the pilots might have wanted to get off the ground ASAP and get on their way to YVR.

This is sort of ridiculous though. If they had designated one rwy for landing and one for take-off, this would not have happened. That is why there is a 2nd rwy, and isn't that the rush-hour at KIX? Use the second rwy KIX ATC!!!
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Carpethead
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RE: Runway Incursion At KIX Oct. 20th Involving AC

Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:28 am

Probably the usual English dialogue not being understood by either ATC and/or AC pilots.

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 1):
This is sort of ridiculous though. If they had designated one rwy for landing and one for take-off, this would not have happened. That is why there is a 2nd rwy, and isn't that the rush-hour at KIX? Use the second rwy KIX ATC!!!

For peak times like in the morning, yes that is the case.
I nor most pilots wouldn't want to taxi from the 24R/6L to any parking spot, it takes a longer time and its more enviromentally friendly to land 24L/6R, as long as there isn't a back-up for take-offs.
The departing aircraft just has to wait a couple of minutes.
 
ktachiya
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RE: Runway Incursion At KIX Oct. 20th Involving AC

Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:25 am

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 2):
I nor most pilots wouldn't want to taxi from the 24R/6L to any parking spot, it takes a longer time and its more enviromentally friendly to land 24L/6R, as long as there isn't a back-up for take-offs.
The departing aircraft just has to wait a couple of minutes.

Yes but Carpethead, I consider two aircrafts waiting for departure waiting for an aircraft landing is a back-up. Wouldn't that fit the definition? I was in KIX a couple of weeks ago spotting around the time that the poster stated that the incident occurred. There were four aircrafts waiting two depart with three on approach. I looked over at 24R but the ATC didn't even try to maneuver one plane on approach to 24R.

Which kind of makes me question, why did they build it in the first place?

Quoting CinJA (Thread starter):
Air Canada 767 accidentally entered the runway at KIX while a JAL plane was on approach, forcing the JAL plane to do a go-around

You know, now that I read it again, if reminds me of the ANA plane a couple weeks ago that mis-heard RIGHT against LEFT and landed on 32R at Osaka Itami Airport.
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Carpethead
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RE: Runway Incursion At KIX Oct. 20th Involving AC

Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:42 am

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 3):

Perhaps 24R was temporarily closed. Birds or rodent infestation!

I haven't been to KIX since the second runway opened. Spotting sucked already there unless Runway 24s is in use and with luck it mostly hasn't been the case in the past four years.
 
cf105arrow
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RE: Runway Incursion At KIX Oct. 20th Involving AC

Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:17 am

Air controller quizzed over close call

The Yomiuri Shimbun

Investigators of the Aircraft and Railway Accidents Investigation Commission began questioning an air traffic controller Monday after a Canadian-airplane entered a runway without permission Saturday at Kansai Airport.

Air Canada Flight 36 entered the runway without permission from the controller, causing Japan Airlines Flight 2576 to abort its scheduled landing. The Construction and Transport Ministry instructed airport offices across the nation to ensure air traffic controllers repeat their instructions when communicating with pilots.

The commission will examine radio communications between the controller and the two pilots and flight data.

According to the ministry, the Air Canada plane was instructed by the controller to hold its position before the runway. However, the pilot did not repeat the instruction, saying instead, "Position, 24L."

Air traffic controllers had been using the phrase "Taxi into position and hold" until last autumn, so the pilot might have misunderstood the controller's instructions.


The commission will investigate why the controller did not ask the pilot to clarify what he meant and failed to repeat the instructions to the pilot.

(Oct. 23, 2007)


Could the cause prove to be clear cut or is it difficult to point the error on one entity in such a case?
 
ktachiya
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RE: Runway Incursion At KIX Oct. 20th Involving AC

Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:41 pm

Quoting CF105Arrow (Reply 5):
Taxi into position and hold" until last autumn, so the pilot might have misunderstood the controller's instructions

IMO, Taxi into postion and hold is much easier to understand than, Line up and Wait. But I don't think they changed the hold short of rwy part did they?
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BlueShamu330s
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RE: Runway Incursion At KIX Oct. 20th Involving AC

Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:15 pm

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 6):
IMO, Taxi into postion and hold is much easier to understand than, Line up and Wait.

As I have posted on here in previous threads, 'Taxi into position and hold,' or, 'Line up and hold' is not recognised standard phraseology as it is ambigious and easily misinterpreted. Accents also proved to play a part in an incident involving this phrase a few years ago when at Heathrow, a Japan Air 747 was told to "line up and hold," to which he replied "Roger, Line up and ROLL."

There is no such confusion with "Line up RWY XX and wait."

Shamu
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
cf105arrow
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RE: Runway Incursion At KIX Oct. 20th Involving AC

Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:39 am

Japan Assigns Safety Measure Officers To Foreign Airlines

October 23, 2007 8:20 a.m. EST

Vittorio Hernandez - AHN News Writer
Tokyo, Japan (AHN) - Following a near air disaster on Saturday due to unauthorized landing of an Air Canada passenger plan at Japan's Kansai International Airport close to Osaka, the country's Transport Ministry announced Sunday the assignment of safety measure officers for foreign airlines.

It was not only the Kansai incident that triggered the move, but previous air mishaps involving budget Asian air carriers landing in Japan's airports. Air Canada's Flight 36, despite an order from the air traffic controller to hold its position, nevertheless landed, using the runway intended for Japan Airlines Flight 767 from Okinawa. The two carriers were Boeing 767s, Air Canada had 216 aboard, JAL had 243 passengers and crew. On August a China Airlines Boeing 737 exploded at Naha Airport in Okinawa.

Safety measure officers from Japan's Civil Aviation Bureau will gather information on non-Japanese carriers and liaise with aviation safety officers of other countries. The Transport Ministry said foreign airlines flying to Japan had gone up the past five years to 580 flights per week. Three hundred eighty are by Asian airlines that have expanded operations to cover smaller airports in the country.

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7008918810

Sorry guys but I couldn't resist posting this. Vittori, get the facts straight. Big grin
 
ktachiya
Posts: 1500
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RE: Runway Incursion At KIX Oct. 20th Involving AC

Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:08 am

Quoting CF105Arrow (Reply 8):
Air Canada's Flight 36, despite an order from the air traffic controller to hold its position, nevertheless landed, using the runway intended for Japan Airlines Flight 767 from Okinawa. The two carriers were Boeing 767s, Air Canada had 216 aboard, JAL had 243 passengers and crew. On August a China Airlines Boeing 737 exploded at Naha Airport in Okinawa

Is this some Asian guy writing this? First of all, the grammar sounds awfully blant, and next of all its Air Canada 35 to Vancouver and two airplanes landing.............. And what does the China Airlines blowing up in OKA have anything to do with ATC? It was a mechanical problem...... Man........ perhaps AC or JL should sue this article writer and see if he can get the facts right next time.
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