B7X7
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EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:37 pm

According to FI, Emirate's is still not happy with either the 787-10 or the A350-900XWB

Tim wants more thrust from the 787-10

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...nes-a350-xwb-and-787-concerns.html

I can see this going on till Farnborough 08,

[Edited 2007-10-22 08:52:30]
 
ikramerica
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RE: Emirate's Still Not Decided On 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:55 pm

Quoting B7x7 (Thread starter):
I can see this going on till Farnborough 08,

I still think EK is talking smack about the products (787, 350, 748) so they have an excuse for not buying anything, because they have eyes bigger than their stomach. But if they admit they are actually now nervous about buying too many aircraft too soon, that would be a sign of weakness. So instead, they try to lay it all on the manufacturers. "We'd buy 120 more planes right now if only there were planes out there worth buying..."
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
albird87
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:21 pm

Oh boo Hoo..... EK want this and that!! If they really want their aircraft to have all the features that they want, then they are gonna have to build it themselves!!
Honestly i have never heard soo much complaints before about these aircraft and whats going to happen is Boeing and Airbus are just going to turn around to EK and go 'this is what we have.... take it or leave it!!'
 
astuteman
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:27 pm

Quoting B7x7 (Thread starter):
According to FI, Emirate's is still not happy with either the 787-10 or the A350-900XWB

It would appear from the article that his primary concern about the A350 is "confidence".

I take his comments to indicate that he's fairly happy with the A350 specs in themselves. I couldn't see anywhere where he was asking for changes to he product as such.

Regards
 
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Stitch
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:35 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 3):
I take his comments to indicate that he's fairly happy with the A350 specs in themselves. I couldn't see anywhere where he was asking for changes to he product as such.

Correct.

He likely feels the A350-900 is the right plane for EK, provided it meets the guarantees Airbus has claimed. However, it looks like that he doesn't want an A350-900 that cannot meet those claims, even if it means he gets a compensation check for each frame.

As for the 787-10, he wants it to do more then Boeing is currently offering (which is around 7800nm at this time), likely because he feels a bit more confident in the 787 because it will have a few years of in-service data under it's belt by 2013 which could be used to tweak the design, which would not be the case with A350-900s delivered at the same date.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:38 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
Quoting B7x7 (Thread starter):
I can see this going on till Farnborough 08,

I still think EK is talking smack about the products (787, 350, 748) so they have an excuse for not buying anything, because they have eyes bigger than their stomach. But if they admit they are actually now nervous about buying too many aircraft too soon, that would be a sign of weakness. So instead, they try to lay it all on the manufacturers. "We'd buy 120 more planes right now if only there were planes out there worth buying..."

LOL - are you serious?

Daftest post I've ever read on here.

EK know what they want and neither are giving it to them yet - they obviously dont want to be left behind and are one of the only airlines in the world with enough genuine buyer power to influence what is on offer in a meaningful way.

I suspect that if they order 100 or so 787-10s the arguments over their overcapacity and caustic observations about an impending bubble bursting in DXB would evaporate quite quickly.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
Norcal773
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:48 pm

Then they should look into one of the Russian jets then! I am getting tired of EK's talk right now. Shut up or put up.  banghead 
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
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Stitch
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:57 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 5):
EK know what they want and neither are giving it to them yet - they obviously dont want to be left behind and are one of the only airlines in the world with enough genuine buyer power to influence what is on offer in a meaningful way.

 yes 

And since neither company can give them that within the next five years, even if they had it today (which they do not), they can afford to continue to wait and see who does (arguably, they have no choice but to wait)..
 
gigneil
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:59 pm

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 2):
Honestly i have never heard soo much complaints before about these aircraft and whats going to happen is Boeing and Airbus are just going to turn around to EK and go 'this is what we have.... take it or leave it!!'



Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 6):
Then they should look into one of the Russian jets then! I am getting tired of EK's talk right now. Shut up or put up.

Are you people f'n crazy?

Emirates is going to be the world's largest operator of the two flagship products from BOTH manufacturers.

What they want should be FOREMOST on both Boeing and Airbus' minds.

This isn't the schoolyard. This is business. When given what they want, Emirates has "put up" to the tune of many, many billions of dollars.

NS
 
slz396
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:01 pm

It sounds as if EK is perfectly satisfied with the A350 as it is being presented to them now, but want some contractual guarantees on weight and performance issues from Airbus.

To me it definitely sounds as if EK and Airbus are in well-developed contractual negotiations, and that this is nothing more than Mr. Clark's way to put some extra pressure on Airbus to add the extra bit of guarantee he'd love to get from them, but they aren't willing to give (yet). It also echoes some remarks I've heard saying Airbus is very willing to sign EK, but not at whatever cost, because such a huge order for the A350 from a single customer will take a lot of slots on the production line which likely will have no problem being filled anyway...

I doubt Mr. Clark's strategy will work, since all he can pressure Airbus with is the treath to buy a plane which isn't launched (the 787-10), which lacks range and which doesn't have the right engine! Not really something to be scared off, in my view and Mr. Clark knows this, so he ultimately mentions that if non of the 2 options (if you can call Boeing's one an option) suits his needs, he might not order anything...

I think this is confirmation EK are closer to the A350 than they have ever been.
 
philzh
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:51 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 9):
I think this is confirmation EK are closer to the A350 than they have ever been.

Well, it's not that long until Dubai Airshow 2007, is it...
 
kaitak
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:05 pm

I agree with Slz396's observation; from my reading of what TC said, it seems that he is leaning very much towards the A350; clearly, EK - and its owners, the Dubai govt - want a deal to be done at Dubai; after all, if there wasn't a chance of an EK deal down there, why would they go? The next two weeks or so will see EK push Airbus for all the guarantees it wants and it would surprise me greatly if the deal were not done at the show.

Boeing won't go home empty handed either; there will be a deal for 10 747-8s as well (as long as Boeing can provide range guarantees for DXB-LAX).
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:20 pm

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 2):
If they really want their aircraft to have all the features that they want, then they are gonna have to build it themselves!!

careful, ya might give 'em ideas.........

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 5):
I suspect that if they order 100 or so 787-10s the arguments over their overcapacity and caustic observations about an impending bubble bursting in DXB would evaporate quite quickly.

why?
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AirplaneFan
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:27 pm

It just seems like Dubia has a crazy Ruler. He wants everything in Dubai to be the best, largest, tallest, biggest, etc. In this case he wants EK to become the largest airline in the world in every way, fleet, passengers carried, RPK's, FTK's, etc. and best airline in the world with the greatest flying experience. Dubai will just become the new capital of the world beating New York. See Dubai is going to have I don't know how many new skyscrapers, largest artificial islands, largest airport, largest seaport, etc. I wonder what the Dubai ruler will do tomorrow when the oil turns out to be extinct. Wink This also goes to the rest of the Middle East countries and cities, not just Dubai, UAE.
I GOT YOUR SIX
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 11):
Boeing won't go home empty handed either; there will be a deal for 10 747-8s as well (as long as Boeing can provide range guarantees for DXB-LAX).

What payload do you think that needs to be? Range is not an issue, it is payload over that range which has to be the issue unless hot day performance out of DXB is also an issue.
The preliminary load table suggests a payload of about 120000lb for a 7500nm ESAD sector. Is that enough or not?
 
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Stitch
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:42 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 9):
I think this is confirmation EK are closer to the A350 than they have ever been.

I believe it is a given EK will fly the A350.

However, I also believe it is far from a given that EK will not fly the 787.
 
BrianDromey
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:46 pm

Quoting AirplaneFan (Reply 13):
I wonder what the Dubai ruler will do tomorrow when the oil turns out to be extinct.  This also goes to the rest of the Middle East countries and cities, not just Dubai, UAE.

Dubai's oil dried up a loooooong time ago. Dubai is now a very diversified economy, perhaps there are investments in Oil, I suspect there are, but when the oil runs out DXB will be no more screwed than Europe and the USA.

Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
 
gigneil
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:03 pm

Quoting AirplaneFan (Reply 13):
I wonder what the Dubai ruler will do tomorrow when the oil turns out to be extinct. 

Um, why do you think he's doing all this?

NS
 
AFGMEL
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:56 pm

Gawd, the amount of hegemony and willful ignorance astounds me sometimes. While I have only fairly recently joined Airliners, I have been lurking for a long time. Since the 90s from memory. Waaay back then, the same sort of stuff was being sprouted about EK and how they were going to go bust and how they didn't need this capacity etc etc etc.

Now almost 10 years later they are going gangbusters. The lack of oil was long forseen and to their enormous credit they did something about it. Just because airlines are not growing in double digit percentages in your neck of the woods does not mean that it's a world wide thing. Don't be so parochial.

Edit : More on topic, when you're that big, you can call the shots. Lots of airlines have done it in the past and notably, US airlines in particular have almost designed the damn thing.

[Edited 2007-10-22 15:59:39]
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usair330
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:07 pm

Emirates needs to stop thinking that they are the only airline in the world. I think it's time for them to either buy what both A and B have to offer, or like said on another post build there own aircraft.
 
Scipio
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:21 pm

Personally, I'm quite happy with the pressure Emirates is putting on Boeing and Airbus. It results in us, the flying public, flying in better planes. Without the pressure from the likes of Emirates and ILFC, we would never have seen as good an A350 as we're now going to get.
 
Vega9000
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:22 pm

Quoting Usair330 (Reply 19):
Emirates needs to stop thinking that they are the only airline in the world.

Dozens of VLAs! Hundreds of widebodies! I think they ARE the only airline in the world with this kind of fleet.

Quoting Usair330 (Reply 19):
I think it's time for them to either buy what both A and B have to offer

Of course! Now just go tell Boeing to be the first to tell them that. And hope Airbus follows their example. Because they have to learn, those damn cash-loaded costumers! Stop telling us what you need...  Yeah sure

Quoting AirplaneFan (Reply 13):
I wonder what the Dubai ruler will do tomorrow when the oil turns out to be extinct.

Well, He'll just do what Singapore did when the oil ran out there...no wait, they didn't had any, now did they? How in the world did they get so rich?  Wink
Don't believe anything you read on the net. Except this. Well, including this, I suppose.
 
ikramerica
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 20):
Personally, I'm quite happy with the pressure Emirates is putting on Boeing and Airbus. It results in us, the flying public, flying in better planes.

No, it results in Airbus and Boeing making planes more suitable for EK.

An 8000nm 787-10 is not a better plane than a 7500nm 787-10. It just has 500nm more range. But that added range might make it cost more to design and build, which costs everyone more money in the long run, even the airlines who only needed a 7500nm 787-10 in the first place.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
ebbuk
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:55 pm

This is a money trick by Emirates. Nothing like the word confidence to be used as a weapon against Airbus.

Who needs the order more will be the first to give in.
 
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Stitch
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 22):
No, it results in Airbus and Boeing making planes more suitable for EK.

And yet other airlines are not bum-rushing Boeing for the 787-10/787HGW and Airbus for the A350, so they must see something they like in EK's demands...

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 23):
Who needs the order more will be the first to give in.

They both need it pretty bad - Airbus needs the order to keep A350 momentum going and Boeing needs a big launch customer for the 787-10/787HGW to kick-start the program.

So I believe the A350 will likely win the first round due to "availability" with the 787-10/787HGW being picked up at a later date when it, too, becomes "available".
 
747fan
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:29 am

Quoting AFGMEL (Reply 18):
Lots of airlines have done it in the past and notably, US airlines in particular have almost designed the damn thing.

 checkmark  Its not just Emirates that is (or has been) this way. A few prime examples of this are United with the 777, Delta with the 757 (persuaded DL to offer PW engines on the 757) and MD-88, and especially Pan Am with the 747.
 
jacobin777
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:35 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 9):
It sounds as if EK is perfectly satisfied with the A350 as it is being presented to them now, but want some contractual guarantees on weight and performance issues from Airbus.

....funny, I thought Clark stated.....

"“The air show is not far away, but if the things aren’t right then we won’t sign. The A350-900 XWB is now fitting more easily into the kind of seating requirement that we’ve got, but it is now a toss-up between the 787-10, which will be flying in 2013-14, and the A350-900, which is currently 2013-14.”"

He said it "fits more easily"..not "its a perfect fit"....

That being said, I do believe EK will go with the A350 eventually....

Quoting AirplaneFan (Reply 13):
I wonder what the Dubai ruler will do tomorrow when the oil turns out to be extinct.  WinkThis also goes to the rest of the Middle East countries and cities, not just Dubai, UAE.

The majour flaw in your argument was that you assumed Dubai has oil to begin with and it doesn't anyway... Wink

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 22):
Quoting Scipio (Reply 20):
Personally, I'm quite happy with the pressure Emirates is putting on Boeing and Airbus. It results in us, the flying public, flying in better planes.

No, it results in Airbus and Boeing making planes more suitable for EK.

....Boeing did make the B747ER basically for QF...the B764, though was being presented to various carriers around the world was basically for the CO's and DL's....same of the 747SP...

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 22):

An 8000nm 787-10 is not a better plane than a 7500nm 787-10. It just has 500nm more range. But that added range might make it cost more to design and build, which costs everyone more money in the long run, even the airlines who only needed a 7500nm 787-10 in the first place.

...ostensibly, it seems as if the carriers share the same basic view as EK does...
"Up the Irons!"
 
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SEPilot
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):

I still think EK is talking smack about the products (787, 350, 748) so they have an excuse for not buying anything, because they have eyes bigger than their stomach. But if they admit they are actually now nervous about buying too many aircraft too soon, that would be a sign of weakness. So instead, they try to lay it all on the manufacturers. "We'd buy 120 more planes right now if only there were planes out there worth buying..."

I tend to agree with your sentiments. I have never heard of any organization in any field successfully expanding as fast as EK is proposing. Granted, their track record so far looks good, but they are talking about growing exponentially, not incrementally. As to their balance sheets, who are they answerable to? How do we know that their books are anything other than novels? And money isn't the main impediment I see; I see the biggest problem in the people that they will have to add to crew and maintain all of those planes that they are planning to buy. Even finding them is not the biggest hurdle; the biggest problem will be making them into a company and not just a bunch of individuals all going in different directions.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
AFGMEL
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:53 am

You can say it and say it, but it doesn't make it so. I don't work for EK or anybody else for that matter. I do have a friend in DXB who does though and is high up in Tech. A very well run company by all accounts. Not perfect, but that's normal.

Is it just me or is it Americans who have the most trouble with the idea that such an airline could exist and grow so fast? If not, I apologise, but that is my perception.
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WingedMigrator
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 22):
An 8000nm 787-10 is not a better plane than a 7500nm 787-10. It just has 500nm more range.

You're smarter than that. It is indeed a better plane, because payload can be traded for range. The improved plane will carry more payload (and produce more revenue) for a given stage length, including those well under 8000 nm.
 
AA7295
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:36 am

Quoting AFGMEL (Reply 28):
Is it just me or is it Americans who have the most trouble with the idea that such an airline could exist and grow so fast? If not, I apologise, but that is my perception.

It's just you. I'm Australian, and I agree with the "Americans" that Emirates will prevail in the long-term. (ie: decades)

AA7295
 
AFGMEL
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:54 am

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 30):
It's just you. I'm Australian, and I agree with the "Americans" that Emirates will prevail in the long-term.

No, that I agree with. It's these comments that I am talking about.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 27):
I have never heard of any organization in any field successfully expanding as fast as EK is proposing. Granted, their track record so far looks good, but they are talking about growing exponentially, not incrementally.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
because they have eyes bigger than their stomach.



Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 6):
I am getting tired of EK's talk right now. Shut up or put up.
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Norcal773
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:05 am

Quoting AFGMEL (Reply 28):
Is it just me or is it Americans who have the most trouble with the idea that such an airline could exist and grow so fast? If not, I apologise, but that is my perception.

Why does Nationality always come up int this board? Shame indeed.
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
AFGMEL
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:33 am

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 32):
Why does Nationality always come up int this board? Shame indeed.

Couldn't agree more.
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BlueSky1976
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 22):
An 8000nm 787-10 is not a better plane than a 7500nm 787-10.

Yes, it is.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 22):
It just has 500nm more range

...and potentially greater cargo payload that this 500 more miles can be traded for, which would result in greater revenue on a 7500nm flight operated by 8000nm 787-10, whereas 7500nm 787-10 would not give an airline additional money making opportunities.
This is the same reason why simple-stretched 777-300 sucks in comparison to re-worked 777-300ER on long haul routes and why 767-400 was murdered by A330-200.
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scbriml
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:19 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 26):
The majour flaw in your argument was that you assumed Dubai has oil to begin with and it doesn't anyway...

Hmm, I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. The oil company I work for started producing oil in Dubai back in the '60s and only this year sold its concession back to the government.

http://www.uae.gov.ae/Government/oil_gas.htm#Dubai 

Quote:
Dubai’s oil reserves have reduced over the past decade and are now expected to be exhausted within 20 years. The main fields are offshore: Fateh, Southwest Fateh and two smaller fields, Falah and Rashid. The only onshore deposit is the Margham field. Dubai Petroleum Company (DPC) is the main operator. Dubai has a 2 per cent share of the UAE's gas reserves. Dubai’s Margham gas/condensate field can deliver up to 140 mn cfd for domestic use and offshore fields can provide another 100 mn cfd. Sharjah also supplies Dubai with 430 mn cfd through a pipeline installed in 1992. The state-owned Dubai Natural Gas Company (DUGAS) is responsible for processing natural gas produced in Dubai’s offshore oil fields as well as the gas piped from Sharjah.

Exact oil production figures are not made public, but estimates are that current production is around 240,000bpd. Given that production is now in terminal decline, one can assume that production through the '80s and '90s was considerably higher.

Here's an interesting document explaining how Dubai's economy is diversifying away from oil. This is an especially interesting read for those that still insist that EK is just the plaything of some oil-rich sheik. It's also worth reading by those that still fail to understand just exactly what EK is going to do with "all those planes they keep ordering".
http://www.dcci.gov.ae/content/Bulle...in/Issue10/SectorMonEn_ISSUE10.pdf
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gunsontheroof
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:25 am

Great. At the rate things are going, EK is going to give up on Airbus/Boeing, get into the business of building aircraft themselves, and a.netters ten years from now are going to be pleading for the future's more inflammatory civ-av threads not to turn into "A v.s. B v.s. E war." Can't wait.
 
qantas787
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:55 am

For those of you who think that Dubai didn't have oil and still has doesn't have oil. Well I am sorry I can't think of anything else to say to match the ignorance of those statements. Do you think they got rich from camel shit?
G'day
 
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SEPilot
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RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:56 am

Quoting AFGMEL (Reply 28):
Is it just me or is it Americans who have the most trouble with the idea that such an airline could exist and grow so fast?

I don't know if it is because I'm an American or not, but I do have a problem with any organization trying to grow so fast. It has nothing to do with nationality; it has to do with my observations of human nature and my observations of the way corporations work and grow. As I said in my earlier post, what I see as the most difficult part of the endeavor is integrating a very large number of new crew members (who of necessity will be mostly foreigners) into the company. They may succeed; but my instincts say it is unlikely. I just have seen too many people and companies with grandiose plans fall on their faces when things do not go according to plan. Just recently in my home area a very successful auto dealership (in fact, at one time it was the largest dealership of its brand in the country) was bought by a very rich individual who decided to expand; he used the name to establish numerous other dealerships (of different brands) in numerous cities in the area. It seemed that every week a new one opened somewhere. Now they have all disappeared, including the original.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:56 pm

Is it possible to even make EK happy?? It's almost like they expect the entire aviation world to revolve around only them and their needs. When you bu something, you have the right to expect it to do what it is supposed to do, but really...enough is enough. Both Airbus and Boeing have bent over backwards trying to accomodate these people. There are design limits to what can be done to an airframe.
One Nation Under God
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3132
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:07 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 5):
I still think EK is talking smack about the products (787, 350, 748) so they have an excuse for not buying anything, because they have eyes bigger than their stomach. But if they admit they are actually now nervous about buying too many aircraft too soon, that would be a sign of weakness. So instead, they try to lay it all on the manufacturers. "We'd buy 120 more planes right now if only there were planes out there worth buying..."

LOL - are you serious?

Daftest post I've ever read on here.

I've read many that were far dafter. Why does EK feel the need to be so public regarding how the products offered to them fail to meet their requirements; its hardly the best way to motivate A & B in this respect.
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8028
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:03 pm

In my humble opinion, EK should just order more 777-300ER's, since that plane already meets the needs of an airliner with decent seating capacity and good intercontinenal range.
 
StickShaker
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:34 pm

RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:27 pm

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 34):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 22):
An 8000nm 787-10 is not a better plane than a 7500nm 787-10.

Yes, it is.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 22):
It just has 500nm more range

...and potentially greater cargo payload that this 500 more miles can be traded for, which would result in greater revenue on a 7500nm flight operated by 8000nm 787-10, whereas 7500nm 787-10 would not give an airline additional money making opportunities.
This is the same reason why simple-stretched 777-300 sucks in comparison to re-worked 777-300ER on long haul routes and why 767-400 was murdered by A330-200.

 checkmark 

The 772ER (and 772LR) are also good examples of the same concept.
I doubt that we will see a 787-10 based on existing gross weights for the reasons outlined above (insufficient range) - no point in offering market share to your major competitor on a silver platter.
The picture will get a little clearer once 359XWB specs are frozen.

Cheers,
StickShaker
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23475
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:07 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 41):
In my humble opinion, EK should just order more 777-300ER's, since that plane already meets the needs of an airliner with decent seating capacity and good intercontinenal range.

I believe they will at Dubai, since they have additional options.

But they will eventually need to replace those planes, so I expect them to at least secure A350-1000 delivery slots with Airbus, even if they don't place an order for that model immediately, just as "insurance".
 
astuteman
Posts: 6406
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:34 pm

Quoting Dayflyer (Reply 39):
Is it possible to even make EK happy??

IMO the OEM's make EK extremely happy on a fairly regular basis. I suspect Clark's "posturing" is one of the prime reasons......  Smile
His actions will tell a lot more than his words..
Regards
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:36 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 35):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 26):
The majour flaw in your argument was that you assumed Dubai has oil to begin with and it doesn't anyway...

Hmm, I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. The oil company I work for started producing oil in Dubai back in the '60s and only this year sold its concession back to the government.

....to make myself clear (I guess I was being a bit ambiguous) I should have stated GDP....from the link you provided above.....

"Dubai GDP is divided into oil and non-oil GDP, with the latter
representing the overwhelming part of Dubai GDP. The share of
non-oil GDP in total GDP increased from about 90% in 2000 to
about 93% in 2003."

Quoting Qantas787 (Reply 37):
For those of you who think that Dubai didn't have oil and still has doesn't have oil. Well I am sorry I can't think of anything else to say to match the ignorance of those statements. Do you think they got rich from camel shit?

...read above... Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13808
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:40 pm

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 42):
The 772ER (and 772LR) are also good examples of the same concept.

The 772LR is heavier and more expensive than the 772ER.

Again, making something a ULR plane or near-ULR does not make it "better" than a medium range or even long range plane. It just makes it a different plane. So to claim that EK's demands will always improve the product for all carriers is just too hard to support. There are always tradeoffs in a design, and Boeing and EK are having a tug of war over those tradeoffs. If Boeing felt that it was a no brainer, why wouldn't they just offer an 8500nm 787-10 in the first place and commit to spending the money. Because there's more to the story...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
qantas787
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:59 pm

RE: EK Still Not Happy With 787/350XWB

Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:15 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 45):
....to make myself clear (I guess I was being a bit ambiguous) I should have stated GDP....from the link you provided above.....

"Dubai GDP is divided into oil and non-oil GDP, with the latter
representing the overwhelming part of Dubai GDP. The share of
non-oil GDP in total GDP increased from about 90% in 2000 to
about 93% in 2003."

Quoting Qantas787 (Reply 37):
For those of you who think that Dubai didn't have oil and still has doesn't have oil. Well I am sorry I can't think of anything else to say to match the ignorance of those statements. Do you think they got rich from camel shit?

...read above..

My apologies Jacobin777 for my rather crude post from above. I had had a few drinks and made the mistake of posting on A-Net late at night. Yes you are correct with the size of the contribution to the GDP of oil, but the GDP is rather large now so oil is still important in their revenue base. Going back to original statements about oil not being important - it was THE ORIGINAL DRIVER in the late sixties early seventies to help them reach the fantastic fiscal position they find themselves basking in in 2007. Sorry to lead this thread off topic.
G'day

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