gilesdavies
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A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:01 pm

This is a rumour, and want to clarify this from the start!

Was talking to a friend today who is cabin crew fro SilverJet, and she mentioned there has been a number of rumours going around the company from various sources that the company is interested in placing a brand new order for 767-200ER aircraft from Boeing...

Apparently the airline is becoming increasing concerned about sourcing "newer, quality and reliable" second hand 767-200 aircraft to aid future expansion once they have taken all four of ThomsonFly's aircraft. Also the current aircraft in the fleet are built around 1989 and coming previously from a charter airline these frames inevitably have a high cycle rate and don't intend to have in the fleet for anymore than five years.

Also the airline is concerned that there is no other suitable aircraft in the near future becoming available for them in the market place and keen to approach Boeing to order new aircraft before they cease production on the 767 line. Staff are talking of about 20-25 aircraft being ordered to replace the older fleet and aid future growth as they expand their destinations from London and Europe.

Read into it what you like, but sounds feasible... Im not sure how they would source funding for such a large order, as not sure many financial institutions would want to invest so much in a new airline!

[Edited 2007-10-22 15:04:01]
 
da man
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RE: 767-200 Order For SilverJet?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:04 pm

 crossfingers  More 767-200ERs would make me very happy.  cloudnine 
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STT757
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:11 pm

In a couple of years CO will be looking at retiring their 10 767-200ERs in favor or the 787-8, when exactly that happens is anyones guess but the 787 will replace CO's 767-200ERs at somepoint. CO's 767-200ERs are all new builds with 777 style interiors, the oldest being delivered new in 2000.
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EI321
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:23 pm

Are they the last 767-200ER's delivered? As for the roumer, highly highly unlikely.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:32 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 2):
In a couple of years CO will be looking at retiring their 10 767-200ERs in favor or the 787-8

...a "couple of years" can mean another decade and a half down the road. Those aircraft are essentially brand new, and there's not much market demand for used 762s, even those of CO-style specs.
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:42 pm

I'd be surprised if when the 787 starts being delivered that there won't be more good 767's available. They may want to order a few to tide them over but ordering 20-25 seems foolish. They will then have brand new airplanes that are more expensive to fly than their competitors when the 787 deliveries catch up with demand; that will be an undesirable place to be.
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:45 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 4):
Those aircraft are essentially brand new, and there's not much market demand for used 762s, even those of CO-style specs.

On the other hand, the 788 is a much bigger and heavier aircraft.

The 762 can make more money in certain markets. There is no replacement for the 762.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:45 pm

Yes, CO's 762ER are all delivered. I presume they will be converted into Freighters.

I think this rumor is true as SilverJet is expanding and if they want new built a/c, they can get them as the 767 line is open.

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eraugrad02
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:54 pm

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 7):
Yes, CO's 762ER are all delivered.

He asked if CO 767-200ER were last to be delivered.
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:55 pm

Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 8):

He asked if CO 767-200ER were last to be delivered.

I believe there were some after CO's.

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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:02 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 2):
In a couple of years CO will be looking at retiring their 10 767-200ERs in favor or the 787-8, when exactly that happens is anyones guess but the 787 will replace CO's 767-200ERs at somepoint. CO's 767-200ERs are all new builds with 777 style interiors, the oldest being delivered new in 2000.

That doesn't make much sense. Why would they get rid of what are essentially new airplanes? I don't see those 762s going anywhere for quite a while, 787s in fleet or not.
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
Im not sure how they would source funding for such a large order, as not sure many financial institutions would want to invest so much in a new airline!

And also in what is now considered an old aircraft design, and in 10-15 years time there will be even less of a market for used examples than there is now so the financial institutions could get badly burned on this especially if the airline went under, they would be left with brand new examples of a type nobody wants.

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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting 777STL (Reply 10):
That doesn't make much sense. Why would they get rid of what are essentially new airplanes? I don't see those 762s going anywhere for quite a while, 787s in fleet or not.

The CASMs of the 767-200ER don't work well with oil near $90 a barrel, the 787-8 offers more capacity, greater range, better fuel economy and a much lower CASM vs the 767-200ER which is why they will be replaced.

The 767-200ER in CO's configuration has roughly the same seating as CO's 757s, but with a much higher CASM.
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Lemurs
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:51 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 12):
The 767-200ER in CO's configuration has roughly the same seating as CO's 757s, but with a much higher CASM

...and much higher revenue potential, with almost 50% more J seating. I doubt CO will want to hang onto all of them too much longer, but I doubt they'll want to get rid of them all in one shot either. There are some routes that won't need the capacity of the 788 (which is even a bit bigger than the 764, if I am not mistaken) and demand the 762 for scheduling flexibility and proper capacity sizing.
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baw716
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:06 am

This is very curious and I wonder how Silverjet is arriving at numbers that can conclude that the 767-200ER can provide the kind of economics they need vs. the cost new? This is just one of the many questions I have about the "rumour" that was stated at the beginning of the post.

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 11):
And also in what is now considered an old aircraft design, and in 10-15 years time there will be even less of a market for used examples than there is now so the financial institutions could get badly burned on this especially if the airline went under, they would be left with brand new examples of a type nobody wants.

Granted, while this is an old aircraft design, many of the changes that have been made to the aircraft, especially those delivered to CO have brought the aircraft up to relatively modern standard. In 10-15 years time, there will be a lot of used 767s on the market (many having been retired as a result of age) and if there are any 10 year old 767s on the market, they will be scooped up in a heartbeat by the right airline with the right mix of passengers. Remember, the 787 is running behind now and we are five years away minimum from the A350, so the only aircraft that Boeing offers in this range is the 767 (The -300 is better than the -200 in unit costs in general terms). The 777 is much larger and is built for much longer missions. I believe the 767-300/400 will be around for a long time to come.

Where I do agree with your statement is in regard to the airline itself. For Silverjet to outright purchase 25 767-200ERs is a stretch for a new airline, especially one with an all Business Class passenger market. I am convinced that we will be headed into a recession sometime in late 2008 or early 2009 in the USA and business passengers will become cost conscious as they did in the early 90s. I don't know how well MaxJet is performing with their product, which is more of a "Premium Economy" product rather than a Business Class per se, but exclusive carriers that charge top dollar for their product, especially with large aircraft are going to suffer. Smaller carriers like Privatair will be fine, since those aircraft are small and have a different operating cost structure and strong management and will weather the storm. I am less certain about Silverjet and it is for that reason that I believe Silverjet will not get the funding to purchase the 767s, unless a leasing company does the purchase for them and looks long term at the used aircraft market.

The question for Boeing is can they retool the 767 (with the -400 wing, engines and avionics) if the 787 gets really far behind? The engineering answer is yes. The economic question is why would they want to?

Short answer, I don't see that happening. I believe the 787 will come out a little late and Boeing will deliver what they have promised with this airplane. As for the 767(-300), my guess is that the airplane will outlive Silverjet should things go south in the high end business market.

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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:12 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 3):
Are they the last 767-200ER's delivered?

Not quite. CO's last aircraft were delivered between November 2000 and October 2001.

If you discount the Italian/Japanese tanker conversions, there were two 762's delivered new after the Continental batch - one to the Kazakhstan Government in February 2002 (UN-B6701, c/n 32954) and one to Saudi Aramco in March 2003 (N767A, c/n 33685).


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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:07 am

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 14):
This is very curious and I wonder how Silverjet is arriving at numbers that can conclude that the 767-200ER can provide the kind of economics they need vs. the cost new?

In a higher density configuration, the 762ER is very competitive because of the exceptionally low trip costs, long range and excellent performance.
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Crosswind
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:12 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
Also the current aircraft in the fleet are built around 1989 and coming previously from a charter airline these frames inevitably have a high cycle rate and don't intend to have in the fleet for anymore than five years.

Silverjet's first 767 is on lease until 2012, the current and planned ex-Thomsonfly 767 fleet are on 10 year leases. So Silverjet are planning to keep these aircraft longer than 5 years. Plus because of their operational model these aircraft are not going to accumulate a lot of cycles with Flyjet with stage lengths of 6 hours +.

Personally I think they'd be more likely to operate used 757 or 767-300ERs or even order 787s in preference to new 767s.

The main barrier to a new order for 767-200ERs would be financing - the residulal values of those aircraft in 5 years are going to be awful having been eclipsed by the 787/A350 in terms of range and efficiency. Because of it's size the 767-200 isn't subject to the same kind of demand on the used market for either passenger or freight operations as it's larger sister.

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Burkhard
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:17 am

I can imagine they will get an attractive offer - Boeing wants the line to remain open and not a large profit per plane. And I do not see any aircraft of similar size or weight at the horizon, so why not?
 
MHG
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:11 pm

It´s all about what stands on the bottom line of the bill.

Just take into consideration the following:
Boeing will for sure sell the 762 for a really good price (configured to the latest standard)
The 787 will be too big for Silverjet. So they wouldn´t be able to take full advantage of the cost savings the aircraft might provide. This eliminates any advantage over the 762 despite higher fuel burn/lower range.
Boeing is most certainly not going to sell the 787 to Silverjet at a bargain...
Until now nobody knows exactly which true savings the 787 will bring next to the fact that Boeing goes much more into "new terrain" with the composites than ever before.
So, nobody knows what happens if for some reason composites "fail". Imagine what would happen to the project...

I would expect the pro's and contra´s to be on a par finally. The slight advantage being on the side of the 762 simply because it´ll be availlable at relatively short notice plus the price tag will be significantly lower. I don´t see a major problem on the 2nd hand market later on for these a/c. It may be more of a problem for the "really old" and high cycle 762 then.
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dutchjet
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:24 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 4):
...a "couple of years" can mean another decade and a half down the road. Those aircraft are essentially brand new, and there's not much market demand for used 762s, even those of CO-style specs.

CO has already had unsolicited offers for the 762ERs.........from cargo airlines; these very capable and young 762ERs will make excellent freighters.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 10):
That doesn't make much sense. Why would they get rid of what are essentially new airplanes? I don't see those 762s going anywhere for quite a while, 787s in fleet or not.

As mentioned, the 762ERs are not the most economical aircraft around on a per seat basis, the airplanes are not fuel hogs, but they are not as economical as, say, a (larger) 764ER or A332 on a per seat basis........that being said, CO has no immediate plans to dispose of the 762ERs even at $90/bbl oil (and the price of oil will hopefully regulate in the near term future). The 788 is a bigger airplane than the 762ER, and there really is no direct replacement for the type....look for CO to start phasing the 762ERs out of service when CO receives its 26th 787 airplane (approximately). CO has firm (announced) orders for 25 787s, which will be all about expansion, and then CO will move along top 762 replacement, provided, of course, that there is not a world event or huge financial downturn that would signifcantly effect air travel.

To make a long story short......I dont think that CO's 762ERs will end up with Silverjet.

Quoting MHG (Reply 19):
Just take into consideration the following:
Boeing will for sure sell the 762 for a really good price (configured to the latest standard)
The 787 will be too big for Silverjet. So they wouldn´t be able to take full advantage of the cost savings the aircraft might provide. This eliminates any advantage over the 762 despite higher fuel burn/lower range.
Boeing is most certainly not going to sell the 787 to Silverjet at a bargain...
Until now nobody knows exactly which true savings the 787 will bring next

All very valid points.....sharply priced new build 762ERs could be a very interesting proposition for an airline like Silverjet, its all about price and terms.
 
BRxxx
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:29 pm

I think they should just go for 763ER because 762 just burns off to much fuel!! Big grin
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JAM747
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:52 pm

I think there was a topic before about a possible revised 767 based on the upgraded modifications done for the tanker version. It was discussed that if Boeing wins the the tanker deal for the airforce and the 767 line is kept open , passenger versions might be offered with some upgrades to airlines that cannot wait for the 787, or think the 787 is too large. On the other hand doing some upgrades might help keep the line open till the USAF make a decision. I cannot remember the exact topic on this matter .
 
Burkhard
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:59 pm

Quoting BRxxx (Reply 21):
I think they should just go for 763ER because 762 just burns off to much fuel!!

The 763 burns more fuel than the 762. It only offers an advantage if the additional seats can be sold at a still reasonable price.
 
BRxxx
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:25 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 23):
The 763 burns more fuel than the 762. It only offers an advantage if the additional seats can be sold at a still reasonable price.



Thanks for correction! I didn't know much about that. Big grin
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bobnwa
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:36 pm

Quoting BRxxx (Reply 24):
Thanks for correction! I didn't know much about that.

Then why did you make the statement that the 762 "just burns off too much fuel"? I don't understand.
 
BRxxx
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:06 pm

Because I heard that some airlines want to dump 762s because they are not fuel efficient enough and are switching to other aircrafts. I think it was AV, not quite sure.
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:19 pm

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 14):
I am convinced that we will be headed into a recession sometime in late 2008 or early 2009 in the USA and business passengers will become cost conscious as they did in the early 90s.

That is a real possibility with the "do nothing but cause harm" 110th Congress we have today. They have screwed up everything they have put their hands on, and still haven't passed a budget.

That makes for a very poor outlook for US businesses.

That may, or may not extend into the airline's economics deeply enough to hurt them.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:26 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 18):
I can imagine they will get an attractive offer - Boeing wants the line to remain open and not a large profit per plane. And I do not see any aircraft of similar size or weight at the horizon, so why not?

I'm sure Boeing would jump at the chance of selling new 767s so the price will be attractive.
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dutchjet
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:27 pm

Quoting BRxxx (Reply 26):
Because I heard that some airlines want to dump 762s because they are not fuel efficient enough and are switching to other aircrafts. I think it was AV, not quite sure

Keep in mind the following........

One statistic is total fuel burn for a particular flight.....in this case, the total fuel burn of a 762ER is generally less than the fuel burn of a 763ER for a specific flight simply because the 762ER is a smaller/lighter aircraft.

The second statistic is fuel burn per passenger (assuming that the flight is operating will a full payload) for a particular flight....in this case, the 763ER is a more efficient aircraft than the 762ER since it has more seats and burns only marginally more fuel. Do note, however, the airline must fill the seats on the airplane and/or be carrying a substantial amount of cargo in order to achieve these savings.

In today's environment of extremely high load factors, most consider the 763ER the more efficient airplane and its is the choice of most carriers. CO asked Boeing to build ten (10) 762ERs for it since it wanted a lower capacity longhaul airliner.....CO specifically did NOT want the extra seats offered by the 763ER since it was not certain it could fill those seats on the routes it had planned for the type at good yielding fares (with the higher cost of fuel, the equation did change a bit, but you get the idea). The same would be true for Silverjet, with their premium product, they neither really need or want a larger airplane....the size of the 762ER works well for them, a small widebody jet with lots of range.

As for the retirement of the 762s, most of the 762s that have been retired (by DL, UA and AA, for example) were very early build examples of the type and were built as ""A"" model airplanes with far less range than the 762ERs that are operated by CO or would be built for Silverjet. These airplanes were built in the early to mid 1980s and had already provided 20+ years of service.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:53 pm

I would like to ask two questions about Business Class only flights

Looking at the comments here do people consider SilverJet to be the market leader in this product type?

Why are there no USA startup airlines offering similar product to the UK?
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kc135topboom
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:57 pm

I believe that AA and US each still have some B-767-200ERs still in service, too.

But, it would be good to see the B-767 line get some more orders, wheather they are -200ERs or -300ERs. This order, if it happens (for at least 20 airplanes) will finally push the B-767 production to over 1000 airplanes (without considering any USAF B-767 order). That means (for Boeing) that all of their production jet aircraft, except the B-707, sold over 1000 airframes. No, I do not count the B-787 as it is not in production, yet.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:29 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 31):
I believe that AA and US each still have some B-767-200ERs still in service, too.

They of course do, such as AC. US does not operate the 763ER anyway.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 31):
sold over 1000 airframes. No, I do not count the B-787 as it is not in production, yet.

I firmly believe it (the 787) will achieve that milestone someday.

One can say that the 767 has been developed together with the 757 à-la Airbus 330-/40 (well A actually came in later!), in that case the whole project has sold by way more than 1000 units.
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brilondon
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:45 pm

There is a huge used market why would they buy new?
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BrianDromey
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:03 pm

It certainly is an interesting discussion!

There are a few factors favoring the deal;

It would be an advantage o keep the 767 line open 'till the KC-767
These a/c would be great freighters in the medium-long term

Of course the viability of silverJet would be the flip side of the coin.

HOWEVER, if a recession were to occur, and travel budets were slashed, would the business traveller choose a seat with the likes of EOS, MaxJet and silverJet or choose a coach seat with the majors just to get 3K miles?

Brian.
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gilesdavies
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:06 pm

Reading through everyones comments so far, I am convinced more now than I was yesterday that the chances of SilverJet ordering some brand new 762ER metal maybe realistic, in the not so distant future. I don't know much about MaxJet, but they must also be a similar predicament and I think their 762ER's are 20 yrs old.

It seems like they would get a competitive price on an older product, and there is no other real alternative available in the market place for them to buy. The A330/777/787 arOther than maybe an A310 which is still in production, but I think the take off performance from LTN could prove to be a problem... (Maybe airbus should bring out an A330-100, to fill this potential gap in the market.  Wink)

Im still not too sure about ordering 25.

Quoting Readytotaxi (Reply 30):
Why are there no USA startup airlines offering similar product to the UK?

I think you will find those airlines to be called MaxJet and EOS Airlines, which are both US registered airlines... They choose to fly from STN, and both serve the New York market too.

Quoting Readytotaxi (Reply 30):
Looking at the comments here do people consider SilverJet to be the market leader in this product type?

Im not sure if SilverJet is considered a market leader in this field, but they definately have a lot of things going for them and like all premium classes with airlines they vary... Which for example is the same when comparing US Airways business product to British Airways for example.

The main thing that has got SilverJet all the attention is probably private terminal they operate from out of Luton (and soon will also include Dubai) and avoiding all the hassle of travelling through a busy terminal at a major international airport. By many EOS is considered an airline offering an equavilent first class service, MaxJet a premium economy/budget business class and SilverJet is somewhere in the middle. Both EOS and SilverJet offer lay flat beds and a bunch of other services...

Price is another factor that goes in the favour of these airlines and below is a comparison, where I have random date of flying London-New York return. Depart AM flight on 14th Nov and Return overnight flight back to London on 20th Nov, flying business class.

MaxJet - £923
SilverJet - £1099
EOS Airlines - £1454
Delta - £1595
Continental - £1755
American - £1778
British Airways - £3141
Virgin Atlantic - £4000.10

* Fares for the traditional airlines were obtained from Expedia!
(BTW - This was an unscientific test)  Wink

Here's some pics of SilverJet to make up your own mind:


 
Flighty
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RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:15 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 29):

One statistic is total fuel burn for a particular flight.....in this case, the total fuel burn of a 762ER is generally less than the fuel burn of a 763ER for a specific flight

Certainly. A 762ER will also beat a 788 (which is 764-size) on fuel burn per flight.

So, what is the cheapest way to carry 30 J class passengers and a small number of coach class between 4000-6000mi? 762ER. It is the best plane in the world for some missions, and that includes the 787.

For example, Zurich. Lots of biz-class demand, not so much tourist. You see CO and US both use 762. Would a 788 work better, probably not. It would be overkill. The 762 is just right.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18831
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:36 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 23):
Quoting BRxxx (Reply 21):
I think they should just go for 763ER because 762 just burns off to much fuel!!

The 763 burns more fuel than the 762. It only offers an advantage if the additional seats can be sold at a still reasonable price.

Also have to consider resale value. Demand for used 763ERs is no doubt much higher than for used 762ERs thus they will command a higher price which may offset the other factors.
 
eraugrad02
Posts: 658
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:12 am

RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:43 am

They'll get a bomb ass deal I can only imagine. Could they take the slots LAN had before swapping to 787's or are they still keeping those orders?
Desmond MacRae in ILM
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:34 pm

RE: A New 767-200 Order For Boeing From SilverJet?

Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:16 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 37):
Demand for used 763ERs is no doubt much higher than for used 762ERs thus they will command a higher price which may offset the other factors.

Maybe, but that does not mean that a small niche aircraft does not find a market in 10 years. The fact that a used 762ER is cheaper per flight than a used 763ER or a used 788 remains true, and since the structures of the 787 are no candidates for cargo conversion, every air worthy aircraft will be needed by than.

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