aircanada014
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ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:01 pm

Hello all

I just found an article in YYZ news regarding Jazz air replacing their Dash8 series and two potential companies they are looking at. ATR and Bombardier.

ATR Demo to Jazz ---The European turboprop aircraft manufacture ATR will show its new generation ATR 72-500 aircraft to the main North American airlines and leading US Regional carriers during a two-week demonstration flight tour starting at the beginning of October. Monday, October 1st saw the aircraft arrive in Halifax for a demonstration to Jazz Air. It was painted in full Kingfisher Airlines colour scheme, but still French registered. Jazz Air are looking for potential replacement aircraft for their aging Dash-8 fleet and both the ATR 72-500 and the Dash 8-Q400 are being considered. This demo tour, entitled "Unveiling the Talent" will provide the opportunity for many of the North American carriers to see first-hand the latest developments from ATR in communications, navigation tools and passenger comfort available on ATR regional turboprop aircraft. The ATR aircraft being featured is equipped with the new "Elegance" cabin, In-Flight Entertainment (IFE) system, and Light Emitting Diode (LED) interior lighting. "The North American market represents a large potential for the latest generation ATRs given their superior economics on the regional routes, thyeir environmental friendliness and the high level of comfort offered to the passengers," declared Stephane Mayer, ATR CEO. Any thoughts about Jazz flying ATR 72-500?

Here's the link. http://www.yyznews.com/Oct.html
 
MEA-707
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:14 pm

I can imagine that Jazz is supposed to buy the home product. Am surprised that, as the biggest DHC-8 (100/300) customer they never bought 400Qs earlier. But still I think if they buy a big prop they almost have to go 'buy local' and choose the Dash.
I imagine the SAS undercarriage problems are being fixed and then it's a pretty good product. Quicker too then the ATR, an important factor as the Canadian sectors can be relatively long.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:24 pm

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 1):
can imagine that Jazz is supposed to buy the home product. Am surprised that, as the biggest DHC-8 (100/300) customer they never bought 400Qs earlier. But still I think if they buy a big prop they almost have to go 'buy local' and choose the Dash.
I imagine the SAS undercarriage problems are being fixed and then it's a pretty good product. Quicker too then the ATR, an important factor as the Canadian sectors can be relatively long.

Well, I should also think that. However, Air Canada did go Embraer earlier, so there might be a chance that they will be ordering what will suit their needs best. I hope that it will go that way.

Quoting Aircanada014 (Thread starter):
The European turboprop aircraft manufacture ATR will show its new generation ATR 72-500

I know the exhibition plane is a 500 series, but wasn't ATR pitching their new 600 series in this North American tour?

Cheers!  wave 
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cf105arrow
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:46 pm

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 2):
Air Canada did go Embraer
Yes they did but they needed two different planes sizes and Bombardier did have only one model fitting the requirements. As much as many or some people would have preferred to see Canadian planes it made more sense to have the same manufacturer for both type of Planes. With regards to the Dash replacement, a decision in favor of ATR would be harder to swallow.

[Edited 2007-10-25 07:09:50]

[Edited 2007-10-25 07:11:26]
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:43 pm

If Jazz goes with the Q400 simply because of commonality and nothing to do with buy Canadian. The SAS version of the Q400 are early ones in the production schedule and later versions haven't had problems. Most of the Jazz flights are quite short with some longer flights on thin routes that don't warrant mainline AC service. They tend to get CRJ service but not exclusively. AC and presumably now Jazz has a long history of purchasing aircraft best suited for the job rather than what is politically palatable. I am sure the conspiracy theorists will always find some angle though.
 
sebring
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:54 pm

A better question is whether Jazz wants a 70-seat prop. I don't imagine it wants to replace a fleet of 38- and 50-seat props with a fleet of 70-seaters. There is a disconnect here. Sure, there may be situations where a 70-seater could replace a 50-seater because the capacity is needed or there is an opportunity to consolidate flights, but the Dash-8-100s are the older fleet and for that Jazz presumably would prefer something like the Q300.
 
Arrow
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:02 pm

Quoting Sebring (Reply 5):
A better question is whether Jazz wants a 70-seat prop. I don't imagine it wants to replace a fleet of 38- and 50-seat props with a fleet of 70-seaters.

I thought the break-even load on a Q400 was less than 40 seats filled. It might make more sense to have that additional capacity than to go with same technology Q200-Q300. Same applies to the ATR. I'm guessing thet Bombardier will make sure the product is appropriately priced; they can't afford to lose that big a customer in their home market. I haven't heard any complaints from Porter about their Q400s.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:23 pm

Doesnt Bombardier still make the DH8-100/200/300 series???

DId any Air Atlantic DH8s go to AC?
 
sebring
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:37 pm

Quoting Arrow (Reply 6):

I thought the break-even load on a Q400 was less than 40 seats filled. It might make more sense to have that additional capacity than to go with same technology Q200-Q300. Same applies to the ATR. I'm guessing thet Bombardier will make sure the product is appropriately priced; they can't afford to lose that big a customer in their home market. I haven't heard any complaints from Porter about their Q400s.

Why fly 40 passengers at breakeven if 40 passengers on a 50-seater is profitable?
 
Arrow
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:50 pm

Quoting Sebring (Reply 8):
Why fly 40 passengers at breakeven if 40 passengers on a 50-seater is profitable?

Because maybe you can fly 78 passengers from time to time, which you can't do with a 50-seater. The point is, if the break-even is 40 you're not paying as high a penalty if the seats aren't all full. I'll conceded it's a numbers game for the bean counters, but I'm sure their calculators are up to the task.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:59 pm

All the regional airlines aircraft were merged together. Including Air BC, Air Ontario etc. The BAE146 was also included and has since been retired. A few of the Dash 8's have been returned to leasors or sold. All of AC's CRJ's have been transfered to Jazz when the E175 arrived at AC.
 
FI642
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:34 pm

That bird was recently in SBY for Piedmont.

Funny seeing that plane down there.
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icna05e
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:50 pm

Quoting Arrow (Reply 6):
the break-even load on a Q400 was less than 40 seats filled

Hhhhhhm you get me confused here... flying 40 people by itself isn't a way to know if the flight is profitable or not. It comes down to how much each of them pays for the ticket. It could be right if AC had a single price for each sector but I don't think it is the case.
 
YVRLTN
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:09 am

Its the old 100's that 'need' replacing - they have c/n 003 built in 1983 for example - but a Q400 doesnt do that and its too much plane for a route like YVR - YCD. What will end up happening is they will have to reduce frequency and lose ground to the likes of Pacific Coastal, who are already invading their territory further with recent route additions to places like YYF and YKA. So the only new replacement would be Q200's or ATR42's.

In actual fact, I think the Q400's would do a better job replacing some CRJ's, particularly the older 100's rather than DH1's - routes like YVR to YLW, YXS & YXJ for example. That being said routes like YLW, YYJ, SEA & PDX ex YVR and others could probably stand and upgrade from a DH3.

I think the main question for Jazz is if they 'need' to replace their current Dash's just yet simply because they are 'old' - they are reliable workhorses and have not given Jazz any need to replace them. Inevitably the time will come and the fleet is large and will take time to replace and Im sure they will give ATR a fair match against the home team, just as mainline did with the Embraer's.
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Qb001
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:35 pm

I was at YUL last sunday, leaving for YYZ at 18:00. Late afternoon then, between 16:30 and 17:30, there was an ATR 72-500, in the colours of American Eagle, undergoing some tests in the de-icing area and on a taxiway north of runway 10-28.

Both engines were running. The plane nearly didn't move at all. Eventually, a guy stepped down of the plane and stood some 25 meters in front of it, for some time. From the terminal, I couldn't see if he has a walkie-talkie or something, but at times he did signal the pilot with some arm movements. That lasted something like 15 minutes. The guy got back in the plane, which then taxied to the other side of the terminal, where I lost sight of it.

To the best of my knowledge, American Eagle doesn't fly the ATR 72 to YUL; JFK-YUL is served by ER3. YUL is not a maintenance base for ATR 72 either.

Then I thought that airplane may have experienced some technical problems during its flight and diverted to YUL. But which flight could it be ? American doesn't fly to neither YOW, nor YQB. During a ferry flight maybe? Strange...

But considering this thread's topic, that could explain this event.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
CRJ 900
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:03 pm

From what I understand, and this is coming from management, Jazz wants a 50 seater and a 70 seater. The Dash 8 300 is old technology, the ATR 42/72-600 series would fill that requirement. All Bombardier has is the Q400 and they are talking about stretching but not shrinking. I'm hoping for ATR.
 
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PW100
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:25 pm

Quoting Qb001 (Reply 14):
But considering this thread's topic, that could explain this event.

Hmm . . .

Quoting Aircanada014 (Thread starter):
ATR Demo to Jazz ---The European turboprop aircraft manufacture ATR will show its new generation ATR 72-500 aircraft to the main North American airlines . . . it was painted in full Kingfisher Airlines colour scheme, but still French registered
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
BrianDromey
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:46 pm

Quoting Qb001 (Reply 14):
there was an ATR 72-500, in the colours of American Eagle,

I dont think that American Eagle have any ATR-72-500's at all, only earlier models.

It could be that Eagle are lloking to re introduce ATRs to the North East of teh US once more. After the infamous icing incidnet they moved them all to the Carribbean, but with jet fuel prices the way they are the ERJ 135s cant be making too much sense.

Perhaps this was some sort of Icing/cold condition test?

Brian.
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sebring
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:10 pm

Quoting CF105Arrow (Reply 3):
Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 2):
Air Canada did go Embraer
Yes they did but they needed two different planes sizes and Bombardier did have only one model fitting the requirements. As much as many or some people would have preferred to see Canadian planes it made more sense to have the same manufacturer for both type of Planes. With regards to the Dash replacement, a decision in favor of ATR would be harder to swallow.

Maybe for Bombardier, but the fact is that the engines on both the Bombardier Q Series and the ATR are made in Canada. There may be other Canadian content in the ATR as well.
 
MattRB
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:08 pm

Quoting CRJ 900 (Reply 15):
All Bombardier has is the Q400 and they are talking about stretching but not shrinking.

Negative. The Q series runs from the 37-seat -200 to the 50-seat -300, in addition to the -400, which would provide a direct replacement to the -100 and -300s we have now along with the commonality between aircrafts.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
bmacleod
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:19 pm

Personally I think the ATR 72 wouldn't look good in Jazz colors. Inter-Canadian ATRs looked good in 1998.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 7):
Doesnt Bombardier still make the DH8-100/200/300 series???

Bombardier no longer offers it on their product page of the website. Only the Qseries is mentioned...

However if you go to Wikipedia Dash-8 page, it says it was still being produced as of last year.
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CRJ 900
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:05 pm

Quoting MattRB (Reply 19):
Negative. The Q series runs from the 37-seat -200 to the 50-seat -300, in addition to the -400, which would provide a direct replacement to the -100 and -300s we have now along with the commonality between aircrafts.

Yes but the ATR 600 series will be more advanced than the current offered DASH8 Q200/300. If Jazz is looking for a replacement aircraft, just because Bombardier offer commonality doesn't necessarily mean that this is the way to go. The Q200/300 have an outdated flight deck and an inferior cabin to the ATR 600. Even the Q400 cabin is still cheap and regional looking and I have traveled on it many times by many different airlines. Bombardier has no updates,replacement aircraft on offer OR in development for the two smaller models. Finally, airlines don't buy airplanes cause they "LOOK GOOD" in their paint job.

[Edited 2007-10-26 11:09:08]

[Edited 2007-10-26 11:13:38]
 
sebring
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:21 pm

Quoting CRJ 900 (Reply 21):

Yes but the ATR 600 series will be more advanced than the current offered DASH8 Q200/300. If Jazz is looking for a replacement aircraft, just because Bombardier offer commonality doesn't necessarily mean that this is the way to go. The Q200/300 have an outdated flight deck and an inferior cabin to the ATR 600. Even the Q400 cabin is still cheap and regional looking and I have traveled on it many times by many different airlines. Bombardier has no updates,replacement aircraft on offer OR in development for the two smaller models. Finally, airlines don't buy airplanes cause they "LOOK GOOD" in their paint job.

I looked at the specs for the ATR 600 series and it's not such a big leap over the 500, and frankly, the new hot and high capabilities have little relevance to a Canadian operator. It wouldn't take much for Bombardier to offer an updated cockpit and the PW127M. Considering the -600 launches in 2010, that's enough time for Bombardier to come up with a competitive response.
 
CRJ 900
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:37 pm

Bombardier has had all the time time in the world to update the Dash series aircraft. When The 400 was developed they shoulda started looking at the rest of the series. In ty[pical Bombardier fashion, they are reactionary at best (EJET C Series for example) and they still can't get their act together on that one. Extra power of the ATR 600 would be great for the mountains. In any case, that's my opinion. I really hope they don't go Dash.
 
planemaker
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:26 pm

Quoting MattRB (Reply 19):
Negative. The Q series runs from the 37-seat -200 to the 50-seat -300, in addition to the -400, which would provide a direct replacement to the -100 and -300s we have now along with the commonality between aircrafts.

Negative. The Q series... save for the Q400, is just useless marketing based only on the optional NVS system - nothing more. There is no "real" commonality between the 400 and the rest of the Dash 8 series. Engine, avionics, & systems are ALL different.
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Viscount724
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:44 pm

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 20):
Personally I think the ATR 72 wouldn't look good in Jazz colors. Inter-Canadian ATRs looked good in 1998.

I think the Q400's speed advantage over the ATR will be important for Jazz. Some of their Dash 8 sectors are significantly longer than those typically operated by the same types in Europe etc. The Q400 would also be a good replacement for the CRJ-100/200 on many routes -- more economical and little difference in elapsed time on sectors up to 500 miles or so. I've always found the Dash 8 (all models) very comfortable, much better than the CRJ-100/200.
 
NASBWI
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:58 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 17):
I dont think that American Eagle have any ATR-72-500's at all, only earlier models.

No, they certainly do  wink :


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They're normally known as the -212A rather than the -500, and most of them are based out of MIA. Though SJU has seen a few of them arrive as well.
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HanginOut
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RE: ATR 72-500 Demo To Air Canada Jazz

Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:08 pm

If Jazz were to purchase Q400s to replace some of the smaller aircraft, I would think that they would/could use the extra space to install Biz class seating in those aircraft (like the CRJ7 and the Ejets) and thereby increase their revenues (as we all know how much more biz class costs compared to econ fares).
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