AirbusCanada
Topic Author
Posts: 526
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:14 am

CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:26 pm

As most of the U.S. majors are re-hiring pilots again, a lot of the CRJ pilots are moving to the larger narrowbody jets in the States. The LCC%u2019s with their sizeable fleet are also attracting a lot of CRJ pilots. Worldwide CRJ Pilot attrition rate is running around 25%, and its%u2019 probably much higher in the U.S. As a result, the U.S. regional are now hiring pilots straight out of flying school to keep their CRJ fleet off the ground.

Unfortunately, this does not solve the problem. There are only about 37 CRJ simulators available worldwide to do initial training for new CRJ pilots. Not a single CRJ Level D simulator was built since 2003. All the current simulators are completely booked for the next few months and all the major CRJ operators are desperately looking for simulator time all over the world. Current high attrition rate among CRJ pilots is perceived as a temporary problem, business case for constructing in new CRJ simulators does not look very promising, since it will take about ten years to make a profit on any new simulator investment. If things go the way they are going right now, it won%u2019t be too long before operators are forced to park their CRJ Jets due to crew shortage.

How are the Embraer/MD operators doing? Are they also facing such high attrition rate?

Deliveries.......................................................................
Active 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

Currentl Active Fleet 1365. ( 976 -100/200/440 series, 388-700/900 series)
N.America active CRJ fleet : 1073,
Rest of the world:
Expected deliveries about 200 (2208-2012) mostly 900/1000 series aircrafts.
About 50-100 aircrafts are parked at this point....

List of CRJ simulators....
1. Montreal %u2013 BATC
2 x CRJ200*
(CRJ200 #2 RFT June 2007)
1 x CRJ700/900

2. Toronto %u2013 CAE
1 x CRJ200
1 x CRJ200/900*
(RFT June 2007)

3. Seattle %u2013 CAE
1 x CRJ700

4. Cincinnati %u2013 FSI
4 x CRJ200
1 x CRJ700

5. Charlotte %u2013 CAE
1 x CRJ200
1 x CRJ200/700
6. Salt Lake City - FSI
3 x CRJ200
1 x CRJ200/700

7. Phoenix %u2013 CAE
1 x CRJ200/700/900

8. Denver %u2013 CAE
1 x CRJ200/900*
(RFT July 2007)
1 x CRJ200/700

9. Memphis - FSI
3 x CRJ200
10. Atlanta - FSI
4 x CRJ200
1 x CRJ700

11. Dallas/Fort Worth - FSI
1 x CRJ200*/700
(*CRJ200 Pending)

12. Madrid - CAE
1 x CRJ200/700/900*
(CRJ900 upgrade Q3 2007)

13. Morlaix %u2013 Brit Air
1 x CRJ200/700
14. Berlin %u2013 CST Lufthansa
2 x CRJ200
1 x CRJ700/900

15. St. Louis - FSI
1 x CRJ200
1 x CRJ700/900*
(RFT Aug 2007)

16. Qingdao %u2013 CAE/Shandong
1 x CRJ200

Total 37 FFS. only one outside U.S/EU.
 
CptRegionalJet
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:34 am

RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:47 pm

Interesting....seems to be the same problem everywhere.
 
Kohflot
Posts: 941
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 1999 5:31 am

RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:20 pm

This site indicates there are also sims in the MSP area:

http://www.panamacademy.com/a01_airline_training/simulators01.html

I noticed they don't list an IAD location anymore. Perhaps the CRJ-200 sim in Minneapolis was moved there after the demise of ACA/FlyI.
Ask why..
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:26 pm

Most regionals are having staffing problems right now. Years of low pay, lousy schedules, and poor treatment have caught up to them.

The majors hiring pilots has certainly made a dent in staffing levels, but it is not the biggest problem. That would be the fact that there are fewer pilots applying the regional airlines that there have been in the past. Add in that most regional airline management failed to realize that staffing would become a problem, and did not ramp up hiring / upgrades in advance of this.

At my airline, the union warned management over a year ago that staffing problems would pop up sometime in 2007. Those problems popped up about April. It started with the more junior first officers jumping ship to go to other regionals. That has slowed a little, but now the mid seniority level captains are leaving for other carriers. The result is still being short of first officers, and now short of captains as well. Since we're still short in the right seat, the company can't pull the needed FOs off the line for upgrade training to re-staff the left seat.

We're still having trouble getting applicants in the door as well. No growth, six year upgrade, outstation basing, horrible schedules, etc, and I would apply here either.
 
itsnotfinals
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Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:51 am

RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:31 pm

I would welcome the demise of CRJ's , they have seriously backed up several major airports. JFK should ban all CRJ's <70 seats immeadiately before the FAA forces the 20% cut in flights that has been threatened.
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
AirbusCanada
Topic Author
Posts: 526
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:14 am

RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:33 pm

The Panam CRJ sims are not operational anymore. I think they are being bought up by FSI and/or CAE.
FSI have moved one sim from Australia (Ansett) to one of their U.S. locations, not sure about the date, but i think its right after the fall of Ansett.
FSI have moved one sim from france France to St. Luois this summar.
 
wingnutmn
Posts: 491
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RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:42 pm

XJ bought a CRJ200 sim from someone and is having it based at Pan Am in MSP. It should be operating by the end of November. They also are buying a CRJ900 sim. Word around is that XJ is going to have 900 sim built brand new for them. That one won't be available until next summer!

WingnutMN
Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
 
luisca
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RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:52 pm

Ad to the problem that a lot of flight schools are paying their instructors more than first year pay at the regionals. I know several people that would have to take a 45% pay cut to go to a regional.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
AirbusCanada
Topic Author
Posts: 526
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:14 am

RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:17 pm

Quoting WingnutMN (Reply 6):

They are gettign the CRH-200 bombardier, not a new sim but it was in storage for a while.
AS for the 900, is that a new or used simulator ?
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
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RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:22 pm

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 4):
I would welcome the demise of CRJ's , they have seriously backed up several major airports. JFK should ban all CRJ's

 checkmark  Although I would for sure add ORD to the list as well. It would be poetic justice if the right thing were to happen for the "wrong" reason, ie CRJs grounded for lack of flight crew rather than for the right reason, which would be RJs being banned from major airports that have become clogged by senseless multiple RJ flights where 2-3 flight movements replace one mainline movement carrying the same number of pax between the same points. On second thought, lack of RJ flight crews due to poor pay and working conditions would also be a "right" reason for high-priced RJs being parked.

It's long past time for aspiring new pilots to stop hoisting themselves by their own petard by working for the regionals; perhaps many more than in the past have finally caught on to what they have been doing to their prospects of stepping up to "the big leagues" by working for cheap in the regional sweatshops.



Quoting DashTrash (Reply 3):
We're still having trouble getting applicants in the door as well.

But I thought there were hundreds if not thousands of highly qualified applicants for every vacancy, clamoring to fly for airlines, even for the regionals. Wink So we have been told, at least, by those who believe that all pilots are way overpaid. You know the line... "market wages" dictate that regional pilots should earn no more than around $20k annually, mainline no more than $30-40k or some such absudity.
 
bok269
Posts: 1568
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RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:28 am

The problem isn't unique to the CRJs. All regional airlines, operating aircraft from the Be1900 to the E-175, are feeling the crunch right now. Pay at the regionals for hte most part sucks, and depending on where you are, so do QOL and work rules. Most view the regionals as a stepping stone, and with 5 out of 6 legacy carriers hiring, plus the abundance of LCCs and Cargo carreriers, many are moving on to greener pastures. While some flights may have to be cancelled, an entire fleet of CRJ's most likely wouldn't.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
saab2000
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RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:39 am

The CRJ is already an outdated airplane. 80s technology. But 00s prices when they were bought.

Not the same economics as the DC-9 and other airplanes with durable 'techonology'.

The CRJ's days are numbered in years, not decades. That said, the -700 is a 'real' airplane in terms of performance. But it needs a more modern wing and modern avionics and systems. The fact that it is about 15% more fuel efficient than it's Embraer competitor means that the concept is not without merit.

Give it a truly modern wing, modern avionics (saving a couple hundred pounds of weight) and more modern engines and you could have a reasonable 'regional' jet. Especially in the 90-seat version.
smrtrthnu
 
apodino
Posts: 3027
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RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:20 am

You mentioned the two CRJ simulators at CAE in CLT, what about the CRJ simulator at the USAirways Crew Training facility, also in CLT?
 
saab2000
Posts: 1216
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RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:38 am

Hey Apodino,

What are the latest rumors in 'Toon Town? I was up there today (visiting the folks) and stopped in Dispatch/Crew Scheduling to say hi.

We need rumors out the 'real world'! Or at least hope!

Bring 'em on!
smrtrthnu
 
planemaker
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RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:51 am

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 11):
Give it a truly modern wing, modern avionics (saving a couple hundred pounds of weight) and more modern engines and you could have a reasonable 'regional' jet. Especially in the 90-seat version.

You say that the CRJ700 (EIS 2001) is about 15% more fuel efficient than the E-jet and yet you say that the CRJ's wing is NOT modern enough??? Putting on an even newer wing isn't going to produce any significant gain in performance.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
dispatchguy
Posts: 606
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RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:10 am

Quoting AirbusCanada (Reply 5):
FSI have moved one sim from Australia (Ansett) to one of their U.S. locations, not sure about the date, but i think its right after the fall of Ansett.

That was a -200 sim which was converted to a -700, and moved to the FSI STL location. They had to replace some panels to bring it to -700 conformity, and the software, and get the feds to bless it.

I wanna say that was in late fall, 2005.
Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
 
xtoler
Posts: 277
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:10 am

RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:43 am

Have any of ya'll noticed that some regionals are lowering their standards for letting pilots in? If I were straight out of flight school and I got hired on to fly an RJ be it CRJ or ERJ, I guess I'd be enthusiastic too. Unfortunately, this day and age, flying for regionals is no longer the stepping stone to the majors it is. I don't want to start issues with the regionals, but the best thing someone fresh out of school could do is have a lot of savings, be single, and go to some smallish airline in a "podunk" base and suck it up. The less people at your base of operations, the more flying you may get. If you ain't airport reserve, get a side job and have your uniform ready in the car, just in case you get called in while not getting paid on home reserve. Just remember, flying is a way of life and not a job. If you love it, you'll keep flying. If not, check out being an over the road driver or something. If you actually went to college and had a major, may as well do what you hate and make the most of it.
EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
 
saab2000
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:19 pm

RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:04 pm

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 14):
You say that the CRJ700 (EIS 2001) is about 15% more fuel efficient than the E-jet and yet you say that the CRJ's wing is NOT modern enough??? Putting on an even newer wing isn't going to produce any significant gain in performance.

I am obviously not an engineer, so take my comments with that in mind. But I have been told that the fuel burn on the CRJs is about 15% less than on the comparable Embraer. I assume this is due largely to the smaller (by far) cross section.

But I am also convinced that the wing, which has its origins in the early 80s, is not as efficient as what is being made today by Boeing, etc, with blended winglets. The new -900s seem to have an improved wing tip.

Anyway, I am sure that Bombardier has talked about the wing as a place to get improvements and decided it's not worth it economically to invest that much money for a 2%-3% gain in performance.

That said, the CRJ layout in front is old and the cooling components for these heavy screes is also heavy. How about a retrofit for LCD? They weigh less and require less cooling.

Just brainstorming for ideas on how to improve the plane.
smrtrthnu
 
Goldenshield
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RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:15 pm

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 17):
But I am also convinced that the wing, which has its origins in the early 80s, is not as efficient as what is being made today by Boeing, etc, with blended winglets.

Who are you trying to kid? Even what Boeing was putting out in the 80's is not as efficient as what they have today.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
NW747-400
Posts: 366
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RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:35 pm

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 17):
But I am also convinced that the wing, which has its origins in the early 80s, is not as efficient as what is being made today by Boeing, etc, with blended winglets. The new -900s seem to have an improved wing tip.

The CRJ700 and 900 both have incredibly effecient wings and engines. The wings are derived from those found on the Global Express. The wings on these airplanes are solely responsible for the "real airplane performance" you say the 700/900 family has over the 200. The engines are the same as those found on the E-jets.

[Edited 2007-10-27 07:41:25]
 
saab2000
Posts: 1216
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RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:41 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 18):
Who are you trying to kid? Even what Boeing was putting out in the 80's is not as efficient as what they have today.

Well,sorry for being an idiot. I guess having 4000 hours flying the thing doesn't count for anything.

And yes, I do know that the -700 wing is better. I remember being on the jumpseat of a -700 that was asked to slow way down going into ORD at high altitude (FL200 or so) and the plan felt steady as if it were on the ground. The -200 would have felt like it was going to fall out of the sky.
smrtrthnu
 
Goldenshield
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RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:56 pm

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 20):
Well,sorry for being an idiot. I guess having 4000 hours flying the thing doesn't count for anything.

Your flying experience aside, my point is that the technology and knowledge used to make aircraft in the 80's is not what it is today (thanks to advanced computer design and modelling from the latter half of the 80's onward,) so comparing the 80's designed CRJ wing to Boeing's newest series of wings without comparing it to what Boeing was putting out in the 80's is neither a very fair, nor very logical argument.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
saab2000
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:19 pm

RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:27 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 21):
Your flying experience aside, my point is that the technology and knowledge used to make aircraft in the 80's is not what it is today (thanks to advanced computer design and modelling from the latter half of the 80's onward,) so comparing the 80's designed CRJ wing to Boeing's newest series of wings without comparing it to what Boeing was putting out in the 80's is neither a very fair, nor very logical argument.

I may have spoken poorly, but it was my intent to suggest that the modern Boeing wings are a vast improvement. Look no further than the 737-700 vs the 737-300. Look at the difference in the wing. Huge difference. I am willing to bet the a comparable improvement can be made on the CRJ.
smrtrthnu
 
Goldenshield
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RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:42 pm

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 22):
I may have spoken poorly . . . I am willing to bet the a comparable improvement can be made on the CRJ.

Accepted, and agreed. Anything can be improved. Of course, I'm still waiting on that can opener with built-in LCD screen.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
CRJ900
Posts: 1940
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RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:48 pm

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 17):
But I am also convinced that the wing, which has its origins in the early 80s, is not as efficient as what is being made today by Boeing, etc, with blended winglets. The new -900s seem to have an improved wing tip.

Bombardier calls the CRJ700 wing for "all-new". It is 32 per cent larger than the CRJ200 wing, with full span leading edge slats. I wonder if the new winglets on the CRJ900 and CRJ1000 will become standard on new-build CRJ700 as well (Mesa has 10 on order)?

Will 40-50-seat ERJs also risk being grounded due to pilot shortage or is it only CRJ pilots that are moving on?
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
DashTrash
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RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shor

Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:11 pm

Pretty much every type of regional airplane out there has a risk of being parked due to crew shortages. It depends on the airline, their attrition, number of applicants, number of new hires, and available sim time.
 
doug_or
Posts: 3122
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 9:55 am

RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:19 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 25):
Pretty much every type of regional airplane out there has a risk of being parked due to crew shortages. It depends on the airline, their attrition, number of applicants, number of new hires, and available sim time.

Certainly, but the lack of sim time for the CRJ could be turning into a perfect storm. 1 year ago when I went to training they were talking about sending people as far away as Berlin. This year Mesa will probably have hundreds of RJ pilots timing out, starting in November. Combine that with attrition and you have a problem; throw in the inability to train those applicants that you do attract and it could get downright nasty.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
Super80DFW
Posts: 857
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RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:33 pm

To bad they don't hire off of Flight Simulator. 2004 that is. I would love to fly a CRJ but I'm only 14.
"Things change, friends leave, life doesn't stop for anybody." -- EAT'EM UP EAT'EM UP KSU!!
 
Riddle274
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:13 pm

RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:47 pm

Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 27):
To bad they don't hire off of Flight Simulator. 2004 that is. I would love to fly a CRJ but I'm only 14.

Thats ok, if flying is what you want to do, no matter what kind of flying - stay with flight simulator until you can get some lessons under your belt and start working towards your Private Pilot's license. It is young people like you that will keep aviation strong! If you have any questions or need any help, feel free to email me!

~Ryan
 
cbphoto
Posts: 1119
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 6:23 am

RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:30 am

I just heard yesterday actually from a good friend of mine that XJ CRJ new hires are waiting between 2 and 3 months to get into a sim, thats how backlogged they are. Now its great for pilots, 2 months of paid vacation is almost unheard of these days, but is very costly to the company itself. I have even heard some regional carriers sending there pilots abroad for training. A buddy of mine that worked for Chautauqua was almost sent to France for ERJ training, so apparently this is not only a CRJ problem, but a general problem for regionals these days. After all when have a massive hiring frenzy, the system has to get backed up somewhere, and the sims is usually where it happens!
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
acidradio
Crew
Posts: 1595
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RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shor

Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:05 am

Quoting CBPhoto (Reply 29):
Now its great for pilots, 2 months of paid vacation is almost unheard of these days, but is very costly to the company itself.

It's OK. NW at some point has to pay for the messes it creates when it plays its regionals against each other. The fallout has to happen somewhere, and this is probably part of it.
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
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RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:43 pm

Okay, I can't resist joining in on this topic, so I'll begin by quoting Strother Martin:

"What we have here...is failure to communicate!!

We have a completely broken transportation system in the United States, and our "failure to communicate" with all interested parties has led us to a point where the symptoms of collapse are just now beginning to manifest themselves.

  • Right or wrong, regional airlines have been paying their pilots (as well as every other employee short of top management) virtual starvation wages. As many here have said, in so many words, "if you don't like the job, go work at McDonald's and give the job to someone who will work it!!"

    Well, half of that has happened...these pilots didn't like their job, and they did go to work somewhere else - probably not McDonald's, but another airline that paid better - but the ability of an airline (or any company, for that matter) to recruit and maintain employees who know what they are doing is in serious jeopardy. After a while, no entity can survive the hemorraghing of their best and brightest. At some point, regionals will have to admit one of the first lessons of Basic Business 101 class - you can't infinitely recruit, train, and then lose employees like a revolving door! Like a bleeding patient on an operating table, there is a point of no resuscitation. We are seeing the first signs of that.

  • Passengers and their frequencies...what a dream world that has become. Advertise to the business traveller that "we offer 36 non-stops per day between Chicago and the New York area", and you've got their interest.

    Problem is, with current facilities, there is no way in this world or the next that even under the most IDEAL of circumstances, that schedule can be completed. It's a lie - everyone knows it's a lie, but no points it out. We all blithely walk around pretending that "today will be different". Throw in weather or a ground stop and I'm surprised anything moves at all.

  • The inability of the FAA to do anything in terms of modernizing the travel system to at least give airlines and travellers a fighting chance. I think there are dead Chinese bureaucrats that move faster than the FAA. Example: virtually all involved parties have been calling for a redesign of East Coast airspace for years, so that when a controller at JFK sneezes, everything from Halifax to Havana doesn't shut down. So has it happened? Nope. Will it happen? Not even at gunpoint.

    I am saddened to think that the system will have to collapse completely before all parties get together at the table to work out a comprehensive solution. Unfortunately, I think I'll see a peace agreement between Iraqi Shi'ites, Sunnis, and Kurds as well as between Turkey and Kurdish rebels before I see anyone in this country even ADMIT there's a problem.

    My two cents.
  • Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
     
    flyf15
    Posts: 6633
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    RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

    Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:53 pm

    I, for one, say... good. The CRJ is an advanced 121 jet airliner flying from large hubs to large cities and flights across multiple timezones. It is a substaintial part of our national air transportation system. It is not a "regional" jet no matter what the name is, and this is no excuse to pay its pilots food stamp wages to fly it. Airlines have screwed over pilots so badly that its finally coming back to them, and I hope it hurts them HARD.
     
    Flighty
    Posts: 7688
    Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

    RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shor

    Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:08 pm

    A predictable situation. A very interesting ripple through the industry.

    On one hand, you have the post - 9/11 furloughed pilots all back in action. On the other hand, you have numerous legacy and WN pilots hitting age 60 every month. WHAM -- legacies and LCCs are both hiring mainline pilots, all at once.

    There is a very large supply of eager mainline-capable young pilots. Probably a bigger pool than has ever existed in world history. After all, did we used to have so many experienced RJ captains in this country? I thought not. So they are eager to go to mainline, which leaves their chairs in RJs vacant. Result, accelerated upgrades to captain at RJ firms.

    Entry RJ wages may rise to $35-40k a year in time. If you think about it, that's peanuts for a jet operation, even Mesa and the like. They can afford to pay this type of wage, the minute it becomes necessary. It was just completely unnecessary in the recent past -- because we had an unusual glut of pilots.

    Make no mistake (in the words of Bush)-- the glut is over. The real market is taking over. But don't assume this has anything to do with mainline economics -- it doesn't. Any seasoned RJ captain is ready for mainline. There are 10,000s of good RJ pilots who can fill mainline jobs immediately. Mainline "supply" pool is huge and deep.

    It is just regionals alone, and their wages, that will see upward pressure. Flight schools may go into overdrive once RJ entry pay improves (and it well might) IMO. But mainline, that's a different can of worms. $100k will fill all mainline jobs until kingdom come. IMO.

    But these very RJ pilots will be tomorrow's Delta 787 captains bargaining for $300k a year... so again, we will get a wage "cleavage" between regional and mainline, for basically the same work. Mostly because international airlines can't bait-and-switch their certificates + crews as easily as the regional systems. Regionals have their uses to keep wages under "control," which believe it or not is necessary. I am not sure whether overall pilot supply can affect mainline wages, but my guess is probably not. The regionals will absorb this situation for the most part.

    [Edited 2007-10-28 11:09:39]
     
    apodino
    Posts: 3027
    Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

    RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

    Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:10 pm

    Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 32):
    I, for one, say... good. The CRJ is an advanced 121 jet airliner flying from large hubs to large cities and flights across multiple timezones. It is a substaintial part of our national air transportation system. It is not a "regional" jet no matter what the name is, and this is no excuse to pay its pilots food stamp wages to fly it. Airlines have screwed over pilots so badly that its finally coming back to them, and I hope it hurts them HARD.

    As much as I tend to agree with that statement, the unions themselves have to share some of the blame. Remember, when the CRJ's first came out, and I believe ComAir was the US Launch customer, a lot of airlines had pilot scope clauses against any regionals flying jets. However, with ComAir, the Delta pilots could have said that we won't allow them to fly the CRJ's, we want to fly them ourselves. However the Delta Pilots apparently wanted nothing to do with CRJ's, hence they relaxed scope clauses to allow jet flying, and pandoras box was opened, and look where it has brought us today.
     
    bahadir
    Posts: 1287
    Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

    RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

    Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:03 am

    Pay me a wage where i can pay my rent, eat decent meal and not to depend on wife/dad/mom then i will supply my labor in to the market.

    Simple as that..
    Earthbound misfit I
     
    bucky707
    Posts: 954
    Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 2:01 am

    RE: CRJ's May Have To Be Grounded Due To Crew Shortage

    Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:12 pm

    Quoting Apodino (Reply 34):
    However the Delta Pilots apparently wanted nothing to do with CRJ's, hence they relaxed scope clauses to allow jet flying, and pandoras box was opened, and look where it has brought us today.

    The Delta pilots had no scope preventing CMR from flying the RJ. In fact in 95-96 ASA got several BAE-146s seating just over 100 people. It was only in contract 96 that the Delta pilots got scope limiting outsourced flying to 70 seats or less, and that scope grandfathered in the existing -146s.