USAirALB
Topic Author
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Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:25 pm

Which one of these carriers is larger in Asia? You decide!

NWA:
From NRT: SFO,LAX,PDX,HNL,GUM,SPN,SIN,BJS,PUS,SEL,SHA,CAN,HKG,MNL,BKK,DTW,MSP,SEA

From OSA: TPE,GUM,SPN,HNL,DTW

From NGO: DTW,GUM,SPN,MNL

Continental

From GUM:Cairns, Chuuk, Denpasar/Bali, Fukuoka, Hiroshima, Hong Kong, Honolulu, Kosrae, Kwajalein, Majuro, Manila, Nagoya-Centrair, Niigata, Okayama, Palau, Pohnpei, Sapporo-Chitose, Sendai, Tokyo-Narita, Yap,Rota, Saipan

From HNL:
Chuuk, Guam, Kosrae, Kwajalein, Majuro, Nagoya-Centrair, Pohnpei

They also operate some point to point routes.
E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/77W/319/320/321/333/343
 
tpaewr
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:29 pm

NW is much larger than CO in Asia, with daily widebody service across the region. CO offers mostly limited service on 738s. OTH CO offers more direct US-Asia service than NW, who focuses on Japan.

[Edited 2007-10-26 16:30:55]
 
rwsea
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:46 pm

CO's service is just about worthless for most people living in the mainland US. Connections are possible, but with multiple stops, and haphazard frequencies. Plus the 737s have much less capacity.

NW's flights are mostly widebody, and there are multiple US gateways. There's no more than 2 connections for most pax in the US.

NW by a mile.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
Continental

From GUM:Cairns, Chuuk, Denpasar/Bali, Fukuoka, Hiroshima, Hong Kong, Honolulu, Kosrae, Kwajalein, Majuro, Manila, Nagoya-Centrair, Niigata, Okayama, Palau, Pohnpei, Sapporo-Chitose, Sendai, Tokyo-Narita, Yap,Rota, Saipan

From HNL:
Chuuk, Guam, Kosrae, Kwajalein, Majuro, Nagoya-Centrair, Pohnpei

They also operate some point to point routes.

What about CO's flights from Houston to Tokyo, and from Newark to Tokyo, Hong Kong, Beijing, Delhi and Mumbai (and, technically, TLV)?

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 2):
CO's service is just about worthless for most people living in the mainland US. Connections are possible, but with multiple stops, and haphazard frequencies. Plus the 737s have much less capacity

Worthless is a rather strong word.......firstly, the poster omitted the services out of EWR and IAH that I mentioned above and, secondly, the Micronesia services are designed to serve the populations of the Pacific Islands.

Of course, NW has a larger Asian route system and is "blessed" with its Tokyo hub, but NW competes head to head with other US plus Asian carriers on key routes across the Pacific; CO's Micronesia service is an entirely different type of niche operation with little or no competition. Its really comparing apples to oranges.
 
tpaewr
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 2):
CO's service is just about worthless for most people living in the mainland US. Connections are possible, but with multiple stops, and haphazard frequencies.

That is an absurd statement since the bulk of the populationof the US lives on the East coast and can make single conx over EWR or IAH to the collection of cities names by Dutchjet. Most of which NW would require 2 conx to reach, if they even service the market at all.
 
burnsie28
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:37 am

Most of Continental Micronesia service, which is still a seperate airline mind you, much like Copa, offers often non-daily service to many destinations. Finally those destinations out of Guam are next to impossible to make from the mainland, I have tried searching for flights to Cairns on Contienntal from the mainland and it doesnt ever come up with anything. Finally, CO doesn't really serve more non-stop destinations from EWR, sure PEK and HKG, plus Tokyo. Finally, NW serves from DTW, Nagoya, Osaka, and Tokyo, with soon added service to Shanghai.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:36 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 5):
Finally, CO doesn't really serve more non-stop destinations from EWR, sure PEK and HKG, plus Tokyo. Finally, NW serves from DTW, Nagoya, Osaka, and Tokyo, with soon added service to Shanghai

I not sure what you are trying to say here......but every day a CO 777 flies from EWR to NRT,HKG,PEK,DEL,BOM (and 2X EWR-TLV) and from IAH to NRT. And CO will be adding EWR-PVG at the same time that NW will add service on DTW-PVG.

No one is disputing that NW is bigger than CO to Asia, a simple question was asked by the original poster, who happened to forget that CO offers nonstops from IAH and EWR to several very key Asian cities, aside from flying the long standing AirMike services and the newer HNL-NGO route (a route that NW once flew, by the way). NW is the larger carrier to Asia, just as CO is the larger carrier to Europe and Latin America. And, as I mentioned before, NW is ""blessed"" with a hub at NRT which is a rather unique advantage.

Omitting key CO nonstops to Asian cities and dismissing CO's AirMike services as "worthless" really does not lead to fair comparisons, does it?
 
AlexPorter
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:01 pm

I did some research a couple of weeks ago on intercontinental routes of U.S. airlines. Just in terms of destination served only (not number of seats or number of routes), here are the top two (or one, in the case of Africa) airlines for intercontinental services for each continent:

Europe:
1. Delta
2. Continental

Africa:
1. Delta

South America:
1. American
2. Continental

Australia:
1. United
2. Hawaiian

Asia:
1. Northwest
2. Continental

Overall:
1. Continental
2. American

(side note: Back before Deregulation, Pan Am was the only U.S. airline serving several continents, while TWA also served Europe, Braniff also served South America, and Northwest also served Asia).

But to answer your question, yes Northwest is bigger. I think a better debate would be who is bigger between Continental and United. Continental serves more Asian destinations, but United most likely has more seats and has more direct mainland U.S. - Asia routes.
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SkyyMaster
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:36 pm

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 7):
Asia:
1. Northwest
2. Continental

Just curious but where did these figures come from? I know NW has long been the leader to Asia, but UA should be #2 in pax. According to the October issue of ATW magazine, traffic for Jan-May 2007 from DOT numbers (it says all services) gives NW 2,224,000 pax. UA is second at 1,980,000 pax. CO comes in a very distant 4th at 260,000 pax. (behind AA at 354,000). I assume this includes CO's services from GUM. Even if it does not, no way would the GUM/Air Mike flights add an additional 1.7 million pax.

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 7):
Overall:
1. Continental
2. American

Again, I think you'd best check your source. ATW places in the following order, for all international services:

1. American
2. Continental
3. Delta
4. United
5. Northwest
 
avek00
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:18 pm

No need for A.netters to decide this question when NWA is the clear winner.
Live life to the fullest.
 
sparkingwave
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:24 pm

Why is UA missing from your thread? The question should be about UA and NW, excluding CO...

You can't simply judge larger just from the number destinations served. What if I don't always want to connect through Japan or Guam? If I judge your thread by the criteria of the most USA mainland to Asia nonstops, then the clear winner is UA.

[Edited 2007-10-27 07:31:48]
Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:42 pm

Quoting Sparkingwave (Reply 10):
You can't simply judge larger just from the number destinations served

 checkmark 

The number of Air Mike (I know they don't call it that any more, but that's what it will always be to me) obviously inflate CO's total number of destinations. However many of those destinations, such as Kosrae, Majuro, Truk, and Yap get less than daily frequencies with 738's. Also as been posted, it's REALLY hard to book a reservation from the mainland to some destinations because it's going to take a minimum of two plane changes. Me personally, I'd love to take the old HNL-GUM route with multiple stops enroute. Still NW and UA are obviously the big two, and that's not likely to change for eons.
 
USAirALB
Topic Author
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:22 pm

Continental has a total of 30 Asian/Pacific destinations. NW has a total of 16 Asian/Pacific destinations.

Continental wins Asia.

For Europe:

Contiental has total of 28 Europe destinations. NWA has a total of 5.

For South America:

Continental has 9. NWA has none..  Sad


For Mexico/Central America/Carribean:

Continental has 68. NWA has 16.

For Canada:

Continental has 11. NWA has 9.

Continental is the larger international airline.
E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/77W/319/320/321/333/343
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:38 pm

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 12):
USAirALB

The size of an airline is not measured in the number of cities it serves, it is measured in the number of RPK's an airline flies. So your logic is incorrect. Plain and simple.
 
letsgetwet
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:19 pm

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 13):

The size of an airline is not measured in the number of cities it serves, it is measured in the number of RPK's an airline flies. So your logic is incorrect. Plain and simple.

So with that logic , if airline A only only serves 2 destinations and carries 1000 pax/day .....and airline B serves 10 destinations and carries 999 pax/day.... airline A is bigger than B?
 
dutchjet
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:45 pm

What a silly discussion......while CO serves more destinations in Asia, NW clearly tranports more pax to/from and within Asia. Is that so hard to understand?
 
rwsea
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:11 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
Worthless is a rather strong word.......firstly, the poster omitted the services out of EWR and IAH that I mentioned above and, secondly, the Micronesia services are designed to serve the populations of the Pacific Islands.



Quoting Tpaewr (Reply 4):
That is an absurd statement since the bulk of the populationof the US lives on the East coast and can make single conx over EWR or IAH to the collection of cities names by Dutchjet. Most of which NW would require 2 conx to reach, if they even service the market at all.

Worthless might be a little harsh, but as others have pointed out, if you're coming from the US mainland then NRT, HKG, PEK, DEL, BOM, and TLV are really your only options on CO. NW has many more.
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:13 pm

Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 14):
So with that logic , if airline A only only serves 2 destinations and carries 1000 pax/day .....and airline B serves 10 destinations and carries 999 pax/day.... airline A is bigger than B?

I am going by U.S. Department of Transportation numbers and stated in Air Transport World Magazine (and most other publications) and have been used universally for years as a measure of airline size. You can take numbers lots of ways, number of cities, RPK's, number of aircraft.

Let's take an example within the USA domestically. Based upon the argument that the number of cities served, WN would rank no higher than 7th, behind all the legacies (maybe even lower but I'm not going to count). However, domestically, Southwest flies more pax than anyone, including AA and DL. So who is bigger? Southwest wins in number of pax. In number of RPK's, they rank only 6th because they fly much shorter stage lengths on average.

So, take it for what you will. CO is not the largest airline in Asia, and it is not the largest US airline flying internationally. I'm not slamming them either, I'm a frequent customer, but I know the difference in how to measure. Look it up on a site other than Wiki, they are notorious for being wrong.
 
IADCA
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:00 pm

Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
Which one of these carriers is larger in Asia? You decide!

That all depends on how you define "larger." It could be number of destinations, as you seem to favor, number of actual flights (which could be a lot different given that a lot of the CO flights you listed are less than daily), PAX transported (asses in seats regardless of destination or stage length), RPKs (accounts for length of flight), ASMs, revenue, etc.

I'd personally favor either revenue or ASMs.

Merely having destinations doesn't make you larger. An airline can fly a half-empty 737 to 7 different destinations once a week each and another airline can fly a full 744 to 1 destination 7 times while making more money and hauling more passengers over more miles. To say the first airline is "larger" is a heck of a stretch, especially when it's operating those flights with a subsidiary.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 12):
Continental has a total of 30 Asian/Pacific destinations. NW has a total of 16 Asian/Pacific destinations.

Continental wins Asia.

Of those 30, the vast majority have only 737 service to Guam or island-hops to Guam. Only 3 have service direct service to the mainland US. Only 6 have one-stop service to the US. I believe all of Northwest's have 1-stop to the US. So if what you're really asking is trans-pacific, it's definitely NW. Within Asia, even then it still might be NW based on pax flown, revenue, ASMs, RPKs, etc.

By your "destinations served" argument, Comair, which flies RJs to 96 destinations, is a larger airline worldwide than SQ, which only flies to 64 destinations. Frankly, I find that argument a tad unpersuasive.
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:04 pm

Larger by what measure...by ASM and RPM, no dout it is NW by a long shot..more planes dedicated to Asia/Pacific Region? maybe CO does.
 
sparkingwave
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:09 pm

The largest airline to Asia would be UA for another reason - the largest aircraft.. They offer the most flights with 747s and 777s than any other American carrier.

UA wins Asia hands down.
Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
 
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zeke
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:44 pm

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 17):
I am going by U.S. Department of Transportation numbers and stated in Air Transport World Magazine (and most other publications) and have been used universally for years as a measure of airline size. You can take numbers lots of ways, number of cities, RPK's, number of aircraft.

RPK/RTK is the only sensible way to make a comparison, as it normalised to give a comparison on the capacity over the distance flown, and hence cost and yield potential.

More cities with lower RPK/RTKs, may give more options for passengers, but would generally be less profitable than fewer cities and higher RPK/RTKs.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
AlexPorter
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:16 pm

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 8):
Just curious but where did these figures come from?



Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 8):
Again, I think you'd best check your source. ATW places in the following order, for all international services:

As I explicitly said:

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 7):
Just in terms of destination served only (not number of seats or number of routes),



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 12):
Continental has a total of 30 Asian/Pacific destinations. NW has a total of 16 Asian/Pacific destinations.

Continental wins Asia.

I was talking about only those destinations not closer to Australia or part of the United States, including territories. However, I was going from memory and I miscounted before (forgot to include places like Marshall Islands, etc). To be more specific, Continental's true Asian destinations as I was counting them: PEK HKG NRT DEL BOM TLV HIJ FUK NGO KIJ OKJ KIX CTS SDJ ICN DPS MNL KWA MAJ TKK KSA PNI YAP ROR: 24 (excluding GUM, Saipan, Cairns)
Northwest: PEK CAN HKG PVG NGO KIX NRT PUS ICN TPE BOM MNL SIN BKK: 14 (excluding GUM, Saipan)
United: PEK HKG PVG NGO KIX NRT ICN TPE SIN BKK SGN KWI: 12

As stated above, even though nobody will read this line before they go criticizing the method I used, I understand that passenger counts or seat counts is probably more important. I was just saying that destinations is another way to measure a carrier's strength on a given continent. Continental has a larger network, but NW or UA may have more seats or more frequencies to the more popular destinations.
Last Flight: SCX701 MSP-PHX B738 8Jan2008
 
IADCA
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:34 pm

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 22):
I was just saying that destinations is another way to measure a carrier's strength on a given continent.

And according to that rubric, WN's 64 destinations and B6's 54 mean that they are both are less strong or significant (whichever you're claiming) in North America than Comair, which serves 96.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:47 pm

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 5):
Continental Micronesia service, which is still a seperate airline mind you

They operate on separate certificates but are pretty much fully integrated with one another. Ticketing, scheduling, and even staffing are co-mingled.

So while they may be "technically" separate operations, they market themselves and operate as one airline.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:56 pm

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 7):
(side note: Back before Deregulation, Pan Am was the only U.S. airline serving several continents, while TWA also served Europe, Braniff also served South America, and Northwest also served Asia).

Deregulation at that time only affected US domestic routes. There was no general international deregulation as service to every country was regulated by a separate bilateral agreement. Access to a few international markets from the US was liberalized beginning in the 1980s but that didn't affect many countries. There were few completely "open skies" markets until the 1990s.

You are also overlooking other international services. For example TWA operated to Asia (and around the world) for a few years, and AA, CO, NW all operated mainland US-Australia (and other South Pacific markets in the case of AA and CO) for varyng periods of time.
 
burnsie28
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Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:24 pm

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 8):
Again, I think you'd best check your source. ATW places in the following order, for all international services:



Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 8):
Just curious but where did these figures come from? I know NW has long been the leader to Asia, but UA should be #2 in pax. According to the October issue of ATW magazine, traffic for Jan-May 2007 from DOT numbers (it says all services) gives NW 2,224,000 pax. UA is second at 1,980,000 pax. CO comes in a very distant 4th at 260,000 pax. (behind AA at 354,000). I assume this includes CO's services from GUM. Even if it does not, no way would the GUM/Air Mike flights add an additional 1.7 million pax.

Perhaps you should read better, he clearly stated in terms of destinations  Wink
 
AlexPorter
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:42 pm

Quoting IADCA (Reply 23):
And according to that rubric, WN's 64 destinations and B6's 54 mean that they are both are less strong or significant (whichever you're claiming) in North America than Comair, which serves 96.

I didn't say it was the only way or the best way. I just said it was a way.

In fact, Comair by that measure has a better route network since you can get to more places. However, it may not necessarily serve the best cities or carry the most passengers (it doesn't). The main thing I am doing is talking about who can take you to more destinations on their own metal. Continental and Northwest can each take you to more Asian destinations on their own planes than United. But perhaps United can carry more people to the more popular locations. These are both good measures, but they are optimum for describing different things. Both methods are valid depending on what stats you are looking for.
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IADCA
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:59 pm

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 27):
I didn't say it was the only way or the best way. I just said it was a way.

In fact, Comair by that measure has a better route network since you can get to more places. However, it may not necessarily serve the best cities or carry the most passengers (it doesn't). The main thing I am doing is talking about who can take you to more destinations on their own metal.

And that's entirely fair and a valid reason for saying they have a "better route network," as you're contending. I agree with that. But to use destinations served as a proxy for "larger" (see the thread title and OP) is just misleading, IMO. I realize that you're just saying it's one way, but I think it's not a good one for answering the question of sheer size. For saying "better network," sure, it's a good way to objectivize a subjective question. But "larger" doesn't make most people think of destinations. It makes them think of moving lots of passengers and cargo.
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:03 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 26):
Perhaps you should read better, he clearly stated in terms of destinations

No, he LISTED the number of destinations flown to. I fail to see anything definitive in the thread starter paragraph that asks "by number of destinations". When I see a thread header "who is larger...", my mind goes to the most commonly used statistical indicators. Questions like these are very subjective and can easily be misinterpreted or manipulated to suit whatever point one is trying to make. If you think I am in the wrong you are entitled to your opinion. I was just listing the stats from a source I have read and respected for 25 years. My bad I guess. Sheesh.
 
jamincan
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RE: Who Is Larger In Asia? NWA,or CO?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:27 am

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 29):
No, he LISTED the number of destinations flown to. I fail to see anything definitive in the thread starter paragraph that asks "by number of destinations". When I see a thread header "who is larger...", my mind goes to the most commonly used statistical indicators. Questions like these are very subjective and can easily be misinterpreted or manipulated to suit whatever point one is trying to make. If you think I am in the wrong you are entitled to your opinion. I was just listing the stats from a source I have read and respected for 25 years. My bad I guess. Sheesh.

While I agree that the number of pax flown is a better measure of size in a specific market, AlexPorter did clearly state in the second sentence of the first paragraph of his post that the rankings were only in terms of destinations served. While the title of the thread did mention the term 'larger', it seems apparent that the original poster intended that as a measure based on number of destinations or routes based on the content of the post, and so I hardly see how AlexPorter's response is inappropriate.

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 7):
I did some research a couple of weeks ago on intercontinental routes of U.S. airlines. Just in terms of destination served only (not number of seats or number of routes), here are the top two (or one, in the case of Africa) airlines for intercontinental services for each continent:

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