smolt
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JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:53 am

Reportedly JAL and ANA are to begin direct operation to Japan-Taiwan flights. These two companies have had to, for nothing but political reason toward the People's Republic of China(Communist China), use their disguised operator that is Japan Asia Airways(JAA) and Air Nippon(ANK) to fly to Taiwan. This is since 1972, when diplomatic relation was broken up between Japan and Taiwan as the result of established diplomacy exclusively between Japan and the People's Republic of China. JAA began its operation toward Taiwan in 1975, crew and staff sent from JAL, and Air Nippon in 1994 from ANA. The P.R of China is expected to tacitly admit this decision.

What is noticeable in this news is that JAA is, being an airline formed for the mere purpose of flying to Taiwan, to terminate its meaning for existence. If you are an ordinary airline enthusiast, you will lose some variety and an alternative for spotting.

reference data

JAA schedule this month (everyday basis)

NRT-Taipei 4 flights (744X2, 767X2)
NRT-Kaohsiung 1 flght (744)

KIX-Taipei 1 flight (767)

NGO-Taipei 1 flight(767)
 
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Aaron747
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:01 am

ANA has been operating the 73G to TPE from NGO for around a year now. The aircraft were not given ANK titles and have been in standard or gold ANA livery from the start. .
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Carpethead
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:13 am

In reality there's not really much change spotting wise/aircraft color scheme because there is only one 743 Japan Asia left.
ANA just has to remove the very small Air Nippon titles off its 763ERs at the rear of the aircraft.

Flight crews are already drawn from their parent companies. The 73Gs are flown by Air Nippon crews anyways.

All it does is to remove some internal bureaucracy within both JL & NH groups, which should lead to cost improvements.

Quoting SMOLT (Thread starter):

There's two daily on KIX-TPE for EG. It has been double daily 747s for how many years but apparently one of the flights will switch to 763 soon if not already.
 
vincewy
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:24 am

JAA has been flying to TPE with full JAL livery to TPE for a while, just go to TPE at night you'll see one park with JAL livery.

I actually didn't mind the way things worked out in the past, especially with CI and BR flying to HND, a MAJOR ADVANTAGE over other airlines.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:32 am

All thats really noticeable with this I suspect will be the change of callsigns with little change to the aircraft actually seen.
 
smolt
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:22 am

Thanks folks, I seem to need update. What was interesting was that several years ago JAL flights between Haneda-Kansai would often be operated by JAA 747 in its old scheme, first flight for the day being to Kansai, and final for the day to Haneda.


>Vincewy, how do you think of the fact that CI and BR was made to move to Narita, losing their advantage?
Now that China Eastern and Shanghai Airlines fly to Haneda, it seems to me as if the Taiwanese carrier had been deprived of their privileged slots at Haneda by the Continental China. When Haneda resumed international slots, some priority should have been placed on Taiwanese, I think.
On my private side, because my house is located below the dog leg of VOR RW22 approach for Haneda, I miss Dynasty....
 
777way
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:03 pm

Kaohsiung is served exlsuively by JAL aircraft in JAL livery but with JAA's EG code, according to JL schedules, this service operating carrier is JAL since early this year.

Quoting SMOLT (Thread starter):
The P.R of China is expected to tacitly admit this decision.

About time China stopped this gimmik.
 
UpperDeck79
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:17 pm

I flew KIX-TPE-NRT on Air Nippon (outbound was code-share on EVA). I didn't get any miles on my SAS Eurobonus, since "Air Nippon is not part of Star Alliance", which was not so nice. However, JAA is part of oneworld.
AY and ANA rock!
 
B2443
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting SMOLT (Reply 5):
how do you think of the fact that CI and BR was made to move to Narita, losing their advantage?
Now that China Eastern and Shanghai Airlines fly to Haneda, it seems to me as if the Taiwanese carrier had been deprived of their privileged slots at Haneda by the Continental China.

Oh, poor CI and BR....Why don't you share the facts that BR and CI started flying to NRT many years ago and FM/MY only started flying to Haneda THIS October and they are only charter flights? FM/MU flying to HND only came after an agreement between Japan, South Korea and China to establish daily flights between Kimpo, SHA and Haneda. Why does this have anything to do with CI and BR out of HND? I am sure BR and CI were told by the JAPANESE authority to fly to NRT now or HND previously. I am sure the Japanese authorities could have continued flying JAL to Taiwan. It was THEIR choice.
 
UpperDeck79
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:26 pm

Quoting SMOLT (Reply 5):
it seems to me as if the Taiwanese carrier had been deprived of their privileged slots at Haneda by the Continental China

It's not the same thing. The Chinese carriers cannot fly PVG-HND so they cannot get transfer pax for instance LAX-PVG-HND. They fly SHA-HND, which is from a domestic airport to a domestic airport, the same way that GMP-HND works.
AY and ANA rock!
 
ANother
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:28 pm

I remember, years ago - maybe 1982/3 - a Pan Am delegate at a meeting saying:

"There is only one China, and Pan Am flies to both of them!"

Well - now there still is only one China, and lots of airlines fly to three of them (PRC, HKG SAR, Taiwan). Does anyone fly to all four (the above plus Macau SAR)
 
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Qatara340
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:33 pm

Im confused. Isnt Taiwan a country? and what does China have to do with Taiwan to restrict its airspace?
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:53 pm

I never understood that "Japan Asia" nonsense..both UA and NW fly to TPE and Mainland China..it just seemed like needless pandering
 
caspritz78
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:09 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 11):
Im confused. Isnt Taiwan a country? and what does China have to do with Taiwan to restrict its airspace?

There was a time, when an airline that flew to Taiwan could loose their right to fly to the People's Republic of China. That's why there are such airlines like KLM Asia. POC sees Taiwan as a part of it and does not accept the Democratic Republic of China (Taiwan) and sometimes refuses diplomatic connections to countries that official accept the Democratic Republic of China.
 
777way
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:11 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 10):
Does anyone fly to all four (the above plus Macau SAR)

Malaysia Airlines restart Macau from November.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:08 pm

What was so interesting about Japan Asia Airways was it actually turned into a HUGE moneymaker for its parent airline (JL). The reason was simple: there is huge amount of air traffic between Taiwan and Japan, and that made flights on JAA hard to book almost year-round.
 
elmothehobo
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:10 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 11):
Im confused. Isnt Taiwan a country? and what does China have to do with Taiwan to restrict its airspace?

Taiwan is defacto independent, but de jure China. China claims Taiwan as part of its territory, and considers it a renegade territory In fact, Taiwan is China, their full name is the Republic of China.

Legally they are part of China, but for all intents and purposes they are independent. That said they don't have representation in the United Nations, and most countries have "either or" representation from China, meaning that most countries will recognize either The People's Republic of China or the Republic of China, mostly for economic reasons. (I believer it was Burkina Faso that switched its representative from Taiwan to China for a boatload of aid).

Whenever the PR China delegation arrives in Washington, the Taiwanese mission closes up shop, and the Chinese pretend that they don't know what's going on. A very interesting game they play.
 
trex8
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:20 pm

Quoting B2443 (Reply 8):
I am sure the Japanese authorities could have continued flying JAL to Taiwan. It was THEIR choice.

yep, the Thais, Malaysians, Singaporeans, Filipinos, HongKongese all told Beijing to get stuffed in the 70s when Beijing wanted people to stop flying to Taiwan if they wanted to come to mainalnd China but the Japanese kowtowed to Beijing.Of course the Koreans in the 90s were the biggest kowtowers to Beijing as they upset Taipei so much it took till a few years ago to re establish flights between their carriers and Taiwan and Korea! The Europeans, Canadians and Aussies were right up there with the Japanese kowtowing too.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 16):
Taiwan is defacto independent, but de jure China. China claims Taiwan as part of its territory, and considers it a renegade territory In fact, Taiwan is China, their full name is the Republic of China.

Since the mid 17th century Taiwan has been considered a part of China except for most of the first half of the 20th century when it was a Japanese colony. When the Qing emperors got booted out of power on mainland China in 1911, the Republic of China was founded. The communist booted the ROC government out in 49 and founded the People's Republic of China (PRC) and the Nationalist party run ROC government went into exile to Taiwan and have been there since. Till 1972, the UN recognized the ROC government in Taipei as the Chinese government and the ROC government held the permanent seat on the security council as it was the ROC government during WW2 which was considered part of the victorious Allies. The PRC has never for one second in its history ever ruled the Chinese province of Taiwan.

[Edited 2007-10-27 11:22:13]
 
FlyboyOz
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:40 am

Yes, I saw a Japan Asia B747-300 flew to SYD and BNE. JAL sometimes changed their aircraft (including Japan Asia's) for Australia. I thought Japan Asia are supposed to fly to Taiwan not in Australia.
The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
 
je89_w
Crew
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:56 am

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 18):
Yes, I saw a Japan Asia B747-300 flew to SYD and BNE. JAL sometimes changed their aircraft (including Japan Asia's) for Australia. I thought Japan Asia are supposed to fly to Taiwan not in Australia.

JA8185 replaced JA8130, and both aircraft have the international configuration (former JAL liveries) which is why they flew other routes besides TPE. JA8189 however, is configured in a way where it only flies the Japan-Taiwan routes.

Does that mean JA8185 and JA8189 will both be painted back to the JAL livery? I hope not!
 
BN747
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:08 am

Quoting Je89_w (Reply 19):

Does that mean JA8185 and JA8189 will both be painted back to the JAL livery? I hope not!

Now that you mention it...there's not a single JAA 744 photo on the A.net database...

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
777way
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:29 pm

KLM should also do way with their KLM Asia brand since it will only leav ethem with this stupid setup, all others Australia-Asia(wore Qantas basic livery), Swissair Asia, Air France Asie and British Asia Airways are history.

Why did Japan give into this when no other Asian carrier did.
 
Analog
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 13):

There was a time, when an airline that flew to Taiwan could loose their right to fly to the People's Republic of China.

Did that ever happen?

Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 13):
Democratic Republic of China (Taiwan)

That would be democratic Republic of China; it may be democratic, but "Democratic" is not part of the name.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 16):

Taiwan is defacto independent, but de jure China. China claims Taiwan as part of its territory, and considers it a renegade territory In fact, Taiwan is China, their full name is the Republic of China.

Taiwan recently eliminated the parliamentary "representatives" from the mainland.  Smile

The PRC are the renegades, or was the Long March just a nice stroll?
 
Carpethead
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:24 am

Quoting Je89_w (Reply 19):
Does that mean JA8185 and JA8189 will both be painted back to the JAL livery? I hope not!

Since JA8189 has left the JL group, it would be almost impossible.

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 9):
The Chinese carriers cannot fly PVG-HND so they cannot get transfer pax for instance LAX-PVG-HND.

Correct.
However, this could change when the fourth runway opens in around 2010. It appears the Japanese Ministry of Transport is heading toward a perimeter rule for int'l flights.

Quoting B2443 (Reply 8):
Oh, poor CI and BR....

Which, early studies have set at the longest domestic flight possible from HND. This happens to be Haneda to Ishigaki Island. This leaves Taiwan outside the perimeter but parts of eastern China such as Shanghai within the perimeter.
 
trex8
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RE: JAL And ANA To Fly To Taiwan Themselves

Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting Analog (Reply 22):
Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 13):
There was a time, when an airline that flew to Taiwan could loose their right to fly to the People's Republic of China.
Did that ever happen?

thats exactly why JL started EG, they were operating to Taiwan already when they wanted to go to PRC and had to start EG or Beijing would not let them go to the PRC. AFAIK the other carriers who subsequently started "Taiwan" subsidiaries - the Euro airlines/Qantas etc, were not already flying to either Taiwan or PRC when they agreed to this PRC blackmail but wanted to fly to the PRC and so set up their subsidiaries to allow operations to both places. CX and Hong Kong were in a different playing field given the incredible number of flights between TPE and HKG and the unusual relationship between HK and UK and other countries over flying rights but BA had to start a subsidiary to fly from the UK to Taiwan. The other east asian countries who wanted flights to PRC in the 70s, 80s surprisingly (except for Singapore which was still getting half its military trained in Taiwan) held their ground against pressure from Beijing as they had more traffic at the time to Taiwan than the mainland.