airbus1
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EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:15 am

There seems to be a new rule on EK in respect of cabin crew rest periods on long haul flights where there are no crew bunks.

EK, unlike most carriers, has the greatest number of its flights taking off or arriving through the night. There are some long haul flights that are flown by 777s without crew bunk facilities; probably the longest of these is the 12 hour haul to Perth.

Apparently EK's cabin crew are now advised that they may continue to have a rest period during the flight if there are seats available or blocked off at the back of the plane but they may not fall asleep and they may not use the headphone to watch tv.

This new "policy" seems to have started after an Skywards gold member (downgraded to EY on a Perth flight and already upset) saw crew sleeping at the rear of the plane in the middle of the night, took pictures, and sent the pictures and a complaint to the airline's Chairman. Apparently the crew concerned and the flight purser have been terminated - which seems like a massive over reaction.

I rather like the idea that the crew can rest and get a little sleep mid flight. They rest in shifts. The cabin is always staffed - and it is less likely then that the crew will be sleeping in their jump seats during, from a safety perspective, the most critical part of the flight - landing the plane.

Surely it is a better policy to say that crew should be entitled to rest where there is opportunity to do so and where safety and cabin service are not compromised.

Anyone heard anything more about the new "rest rules" at EK?

Airbus1
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:26 am

I am surprised there are not laws in the UAE governing cabin crew rest requirements. Operating a 12 hour flight without crew rest facilities I don't think would be allowed in my airline. Then again with EK expanding so fast, getting crew numbers is a problem and thus I am sure that the airline writes the laws in the country and does what it pleases anyway.
 
xtoler
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:32 am

Those panty waists! I just pulled 17 hours and two 12 hour shifts back to back. Then again, I'm no longer flying, and this is the only time of year I get overtime. You have got to be kidding me right? This has to be an exaggeration. 12 straight hours without a rest is not only careless, but unsafe. As an F/A I may be out and about for 6 legs flying up and down the east coast of the US, but there are breaks in between. Without a little break and some time off the feet, someone can get really tired, not alert, and that could hurt the pax. Not just F/A's need a break, but think of the pilots. Pilots aren't on their feet, but you try sitting in one place for 12 hours and not be allowed to take a nap or at least get out and stretch. Then again, we're just here to serve you drinks, how hard is that for 12 hours, when you have some rich bitch in her seat getting hosed on $5 drinks. There are all sorts of inconsiderate people. I just think if this person actually complained, he's one og those people who do nothing but complain.
EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
 
JoKeR
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:36 am

Quoting Airbus1 (Thread starter):
This new "policy" seems to have started after an Skywards gold member (downgraded to EY on a Perth flight and already upset) saw crew sleeping at the rear of the plane in the middle of the night, took pictures, and sent the pictures and a complaint to the airline's Chairman. Apparently the crew concerned and the flight purser have been terminated - which seems like a massive over reaction.

I just "love" these FF wan*ers who act as if they own the plane and that the airline owes them everything. Saying that however, your story does not make alot of sense - the crew were also in economy (rear of the cabin), so what's his problem? Is it because they were sleeping and not just "resting"?

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 1):
I am surprised there are not laws in the UAE governing cabin crew rest requirements

I am sure there are.

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 1):
I am sure that the airline writes the laws in the country and does what it pleases anyway.

A bit harsh, but I know alot of people would agree with you.
Kafa, čaj, šraf?
 
Flying Belgian
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:01 pm

Welcome to the F/A Slave Airlines.
This story just tells how F/As are treated in that part of the world.
Don't be astonished to see a slump in EK's service standards.
There are more and more complaints coming from crews working there.


FB.
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
lmml 14/32
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:30 pm

[quote=Airbus1,reply=0]This new "policy" seems to have started after an Skywards gold member (downgraded to EY on a Perth flight and already upset)[/quote

This is the real reason why this incident happenned. And, of course, the airline overreacted. But then again that's EK's and all other eastern airlines mentality.
 
FlyEmirates
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:56 pm

PER used to be A343 and 2 seats were hardblocked now 4 seats are hard blocked for 16 odd crew- meaning for crew rest, why shouldnt they be able to close their eyes and get some rest? because this is a day flight, therefore no headphones, eye shades, or blankets, sit down in the seat and shut up, but dont sleep.

If EK doesnt want PAX to see crew sleeping then,why dont they install a bunks or a curtain like ive seen on AZ, they did mention it in a memo, but the curtain has never come to fruition a year later.

Any decent airline would schedule the aircraft with bunks which is 7 or 8 aircraft away from LHR,CDG,HAM,BOM etc onto a route which NEEDS them. PER doesnt need bunks as its ONLY 11/12 Hours.

Ive even had to do JFK-DXB on EBG which has no bunks, JFK station was not aware it didnt have bunks, whilst our original A/C was tech, other suitable bunk equiped aircraft , numbering 5 left for CAI, LHR, BOM - EBG was 'spare'.

I think its such a shame the company has such a negative view on crew rest. There appears to be too many indians holed up little offices bean counting. Theres no point having these 3 'best in the world' training colleges' if the crew are too tired to remeber what they have learnt. EK is a very greedy airline, for those that havent seen the density of the cabins, 400/42 on a 77W is pretty much pushing it, not to mention the lack of crew, which sometimes leaves the J class service running for over 3 hours.

The issue of crew rest by EK is viewed as a loss of productivity, not a safety issue, this has been strengthened by a few recent incidents like PER - makes me sad really.
 
jacobin777
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:46 pm

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 1):
thus I am sure that the airline writes the laws in the country and does what it pleases anyway.

.....if it was an "internal" flight they can possibly (but not probably) get away with that, however since its an international flight, it will have to follow many rules, regulations and recommendations of various international bodies/organisations....
"Up the Irons!"
 
JoKeR
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:31 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
.....if it was an "internal" flight they can possibly (but not probably) get away with that, however since its an international flight, it will have to follow many rules, regulations and recommendations of various international bodies/organisations....

I hear you, but the Middle Eastern carriers seem to be in a world of their own... often immune - to basic principles of economics, conflicts, gas prices and even laws in certain cases. These carriers have raised too-many "eyebrows" in recent years, so many people do not believe or trust them. Take it as you may, but people almost gasp and "feed" on even the smallest fiascos coming out of these airlines...

Whether due to success, envy, purchasing power, growth or employee treatment, I'm sure their PR depts. are working overtime, 24/7. Probably getting a fat salary for it as well... Big grin
Kafa, čaj, šraf?
 
dz09
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:01 pm

Quoting Airbus1 (Thread starter):
a complaint to the airline's Chairman.

How does one get in touch with Ek Chairman. I have just returned from the middle east flying with EK and I think Mr. Clark needs to know about the damage his Station Manager in Dammam is doing to the reputation of Emirates.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:44 pm

Quoting Airbus1 (Thread starter):

Anyone heard anything more about the new "rest rules" at EK?

I'm confused by these rules. EK has made a point in dividing sub 11 hour flights and more than 11 hour flights.

So this poses a question. Are the new 77W's being ordered with all the crew rest areas? IMHO, standardizing on this fleetwide only makes sense.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
dz09
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:47 pm

Quoting FlyEmirates (Reply 6):
for those that havent seen the density of the cabins, 400/42 on a 77W is pretty much pushing it

I was wondering about that. It seems that an EK 777 (300ER) can hold a lot more people than say a CO or KLM 777.
 
airbus1
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:28 pm

FlyEmirates is right. This appears to be all about image rather than safety. Though hard to describe Perth as a day flight - the first takes off at 2.45am (tough after a midnight pickup) and the mid morning flight does not arrive until 1.00am.

The 10 across 777 seating appears to only be used by Emirates and the 77W when full is a crush. How the crew get their carts down the aisles is a mystery. Hard to imagine that Ek gets almost as many pax on the 777W as SQ is fitting onto its A380 (471 pax).

Airbus1
 
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OA412
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:38 pm

Quoting FlyEmirates (Reply 6):
If EK doesnt want PAX to see crew sleeping then,why dont they install a bunks or a curtain like ive seen on AZ

DL does the exact same thing by curtaining off 4 seats in the rear of its 763ER's on Intercontinental flights and it seems to work just fine.
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Bofredrik
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:38 pm

I can imagine that there is no trade unions in Dubai for EK:s cabin crew
+ that this country is non democratic can be the answer to the question
"why" they behave like this to its staff. It was a CBS 60 Min report from
Dubai on TV a few days ago and the development of the country is amazing
but nobody asked the His Highness Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al
Maktoum about labour regulations etc.
http://www.sheikhmohammed.co.ae/

[Edited 2007-10-27 15:40:13]
 
A380BWI
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:19 pm

I haven't read all the comments except the first thread but now i am concerned as i am planing to get a job with EK as a flight atttendant. If this is what their policy is about not allowing the cabin crew to take rest on the long haul flights then i am not really so sure about the whole idea of going and getting a job with EK.
 
jacobin777
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:05 am

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 8):
I hear you, but the Middle Eastern carriers seem to be in a world of their own... often immune - to basic principles of economics, conflicts, gas prices and even laws in certain cases. These carriers have raised too-many "eyebrows" in recent years, so many people do not believe or trust them. Take it as you may, but people almost gasp and "feed" on even the smallest fiascos coming out of these airlines...

..I do not believe that is the case regarding being "in a world of their own"..in fact, if there are any kind of carriers more open to various nationalities, it is those of the Middle Eastern carriers....the vast majority of their customers aren't even Middle Eastern..but rather Asian, African, Australian and European..

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 8):

Whether due to success, envy, purchasing power, growth or employee treatment, I'm sure their PR depts. are working overtime, 24/7. Probably getting a fat salary for it as well...

...would be be complaining if you were one of those on a fat salary...

Quoting DZ09 (Reply 11):

I was wondering about that. It seems that an EK 777 (300ER) can hold a lot more people than say a CO or KLM 777.

...not only are EK's B773ER's 10-across but EK's B772's also are 10 across and hold more than say CO and KL's B772ER's...

Quoting Airbus1 (Reply 12):
Hard to imagine that Ek gets almost as many pax on the 777W as SQ is fitting onto its A380 (471 pax).

.....lowers the CASM quite considerably.....

Quoting Airbus1 (Reply 12):
The 10 across 777 seating appears to only be used by Emirates

....TG have it on certain B772's also CZ have 10 across on their B772's as well...not to mention, if I'm not mistaken, KL will be going 10-across on their B773ER's also (but I'm not completely certain about that. )

Quoting Airbus1 (Reply 12):
the 77W when full is a crush.

..crush to who? .....EK offers 33'-34' pitch which is great...better than having 18-19' wide and 31-32' pitch...

Ostensibly, pax don't see to mind either as I don't see EK ditching their 10-across B777's to 9-across B777's

.....the only "problem" EK's Clark has with the B773ER's is "the price"..

[Edited 2007-10-27 17:29:17]
"Up the Irons!"
 
chrisrad
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):
...TG have it on certain B772's also CZ have 10 across on their B772's as well...not to mention, if I'm not mistaken, KL will be going 10-across on their B773ER's also (but I'm not completely certain about that.   )

When do TG use their regional 777's on long haul international sectors?
Welcome aboard Malaysia Airlines! Winner of Best Cabin Staff 2001,2002,2003,2004,2007,2009,2012
 
qantas787
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting Airbus1 (Thread starter):
downgraded to EY on a Perth flight

EY may take offence to this statement. Smile
G'day
 
dz09
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:19 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):
crush to who? .....EK offers 33'-34' pitch which is great...

How often do you get to use the full 33'-34" pitch without having the person behind you call the cops. Flying a fully booked EK flight should entitle one to an endurance medal.
 
JoKeR
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:29 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):
..I do not believe that is the case regarding being "in a world of their own"..in fact, if there is any kind of carriers more open to various nationalities, it is those of the Middle Eastern carriers

You missed my point. Nothing to do with nationalities of staff and pax...

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):
...would be be complaining if you were one of those on a fat salary... Wink

Hey, definitely would not complain! Big grin
Kafa, čaj, šraf?
 
jacobin777
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:37 am

Quoting Chrisrad (Reply 17):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):
...TG have it on certain B772's also CZ have 10 across on their B772's as well...not to mention, if I'm not mistaken, KL will be going 10-across on their B773ER's also (but I'm not completely certain about that. )

When do TG use their regional 777's on long haul international sectors?

...I think it's their "regional" B777's as they have 3-3-3 B777's also....

Quoting DZ09 (Reply 19):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):
crush to who? .....EK offers 33'-34' pitch which is great...

How often do you get to use the full 33'-34" pitch without having the person behind you call the cops. Flying a fully booked EK flight should entitle one to an endurance medal.

...I've flown on EK no less than 15-20 times (in both Y and J) and I've used their full 33-34 without any problems
"Up the Irons!"
 
dz09
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:45 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):
...I've flown on EK no less than 15-20 times (in both Y and J) and I've used their full 33-34 without any problems

If Ek had titanium elite I would then qualify. I have always enjoyed flying with them but my last flight was rather painful.Both legs were fully booked even the JFK-HAM-DXB segments. I need to work harder to afford flying business.
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:52 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):

...I've flown on EK no less than 15-20 times (in both Y and J) and I've used their full 33-34 without any problems

Exactly, been there and done that with no regrets what so ever. Infact flying out this december to dxb and khi for eid.....
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:34 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
.....if it was an "internal" flight they can possibly (but not probably) get away with that, however since its an international flight, it will have to follow many rules, regulations and recommendations of various international bodies/organisations....

Ah, if only life were that simple. I come from a city where one large airline dominates the scene and I know first hand that what the airline wants, it pretty much gets. People know who really run the aviation department of the government and in Dubai it must be worse with the same guy owning the airline, half of Dubai and having a heavy hand in the government as well. Surely you are not going to tell me that he has no say and no power with what the laws are governing Emirates.
 
BBADXB
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:07 am

The funny thing about this EK Perth flight incident is that the dumbwits going by the name of 'management' had initially suspended the crew of EK420, when in fact, it concerned the EK424 flight crew.

Cockpit crew get to sleep a third of the flight in seat 1K in First. Cabin crew have to sleep in the toilets because the 777s with the crew rest compartments are sent on a 9-hour JNB flight, whereas an 11-hour flight to Perth has no crew rest compartments. I can confirm that curtains were promised well over a year ago - as mentioned above - by the specimens calling themselves 'management' in yet another grossly misleading memo.

A friend of mine who was working the flight was suspended for a month. My friend had JUST, J U S T , enough money to pay the loan and the bills for the month, and after a month they told my friend that my friend was just getting a warning.

Sleep used to happen on almost every Perth flight. When sleep does not happen in the aft seats of economy, or in the toilets, it happened on the jumpseats towards landing.

Anyone who wondered why EK keep recruiting so many cabin crew every week should have a look at the numbers leaving the company in their droves.

This would not have happened in any civilised country with proper labour laws with provisions for unions.

As for the programme on TV of a few days ago, me and my friends were laughing out loud when it was said that they wanted to make Dubai the best in everything. Anyone visiting Dubai can see for themselves the one messy construction site cum traffic jam limbo the emirate has become.
 
eE-Kay
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:17 am

I wonder if the people working at the spin department 24/7 would actually pay A.net to delete this thread!  biggrin   devil 
 
EK345
Posts: 126
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:35 am

Quoting FlyEmirates (Reply 6):
There appears to be too many indians holed up little offices bean counting.

Why do you feel the need to make racist and stereotypical comments like this? Grow up.

EK345
"and miles to go before I sleep..."
 
PanAm747LHR
Posts: 174
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:40 am

Quoting Airbus1 (Thread starter):
This new "policy" seems to have started after an Skywards gold member (downgraded to EY on a Perth flight and already upset) saw crew sleeping at the rear of the plane in the middle of the night, took pictures, and sent the pictures and a complaint to the airline's Chairman. Apparently the crew concerned and the flight purser have been terminated - which seems like a massive over reaction.

This is absolutely outrageous! First off, the Skywards member has a lot of nerve - I hope I have him on a flight sometime soon cause I'd love to let him know what I think of him. How absurd! To expect that crew should be awake and alert for a full 12 hours, especially on a flight that departed at something like 2am is complete nonsense. We have it in our contract that on any flight over 8 hours every cabin crew member is entitled to minimum one hour rest in a curtained off seat where we can sleep, and on any flight over 12 hours the minimum is 2 hours. (However it often ends up being more depending on flight times, service, etc.) To think that any airline wouldn't afford their crews such rest is really upsetting. Those are long flights and to remain on your feet and alert is quite a task - if anything, providing crews with a rest period is beneficial as it allows the crew members to "recharge their batteries" so to speak, and be more alert during service as well as the critical phases of flight (takeoff and landing) when safety is key. It really irks me that this Skywards "gold" member thought it was appropriate to take it upon himself to take pictures and send them into the company. I'd love to see him try to keep our schedule and then see how he feels! And for Emirates to have terminated the crew was completely uncalled for!

Crew rest periods on flights over 8 hours should be a given, as it benefits both the crew and the passengers whose comfort and safety lies in the hands of said crew members - to have your crew be well rested and alert is a win-win for everyone.

I would keep typing but I'm still stewing over the absurdity of this mess and would rather just stop here...

Happy Well-Rested Flying to all.
Nick
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:58 am

Quoting BBADXB (Reply 25):
Anyone visiting Dubai can see for themselves the one messy construction site cum traffic jam limbo the emirate has become.

Every big city in the world has gone through such a phase at one time or another. Don't see how you can equate it to being a limbo?
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
ikramerica
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:40 am

Quoting FlyEmirates (Reply 6):
There appears to be too many indians holed up little offices bean counting.

So, after all that, you blame another race of people for your problems? Come on, that's pretty lame if not completely insulting. The management of your company is the one doing this, and they take orders from the owners, your rulers.

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 14):
It was a CBS 60 Min report from
Dubai on TV a few days ago and the development of the country is amazing
but nobody asked the His Highness Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al
Maktoum about labour regulations etc.

That's because CBS has a policy of not asking "tough" questions of foreign leaders so they don't lose "access" to them. Thus it turns out to be a propaganda commercial for the person being interviewed and their country. The interviewee gets to decide the questions, and of course CBS doesn't inform the viewer of this... In other words, 60 minutes is useless.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:30 am

Quoting DZ09 (Reply 22):
If Ek had titanium elite I would then qualify. I have always enjoyed flying with them but my last flight was rather painful.Both legs were fully booked even the JFK-HAM-DXB segments. I need to work harder to afford flying business.

I actually hear this all the time (i.e.-JFK-HAM-DXB being fully booked)...just goes to show how well EK are doing... Wink

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 23):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 21):

...I've flown on EK no less than 15-20 times (in both Y and J) and I've used their full 33-34 without any problems

Exactly, been there and done that with no regrets what so ever. Infact flying out this december to dxb and khi for eid.....

.....I'm going to try to make it to EID once again this year too... yes ...however there is a very good chance I'm going to be giving PK's B773ER some business-try something different.. bigthumbsup 

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 24):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
.....if it was an "internal" flight they can possibly (but not probably) get away with that, however since its an international flight, it will have to follow many rules, regulations and recommendations of various international bodies/organisations....

Ah, if only life were that simple. I come from a city where one large airline dominates the scene and I know first hand that what the airline wants, it pretty much gets. People know who really run the aviation department of the government and in Dubai it must be worse with the same guy owning the airline, half of Dubai and having a heavy hand in the government as well. Surely you are not going to tell me that he has no say and no power with what the laws are governing Emirates.

...again, possibly for domestic...but other governments and regulators aren't going to allow the "one large airline" whatever it wants... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
chrisrad
Posts: 963
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2000 7:26 pm

RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:59 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 31):
Quoting DZ09 (Reply 22):
If Ek had titanium elite I would then qualify. I have always enjoyed flying with them but my last flight was rather painful.Both legs were fully booked even the JFK-HAM-DXB segments. I need to work harder to afford flying business.

I actually hear this all the time (i.e.-JFK-HAM-DXB being fully booked)...just goes to show how well EK are doing... 

At the expense of treating their cabin crew like crap? Quite honestly I wouldn't mind seeing some type of expose on TV or other media, if it means the cabin crews conditions are improved/
Welcome aboard Malaysia Airlines! Winner of Best Cabin Staff 2001,2002,2003,2004,2007,2009,2012
 
Sean-SAN-
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Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2002 4:02 pm

RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:33 am

I saw the FA's sleeping in the last row of Y on my MH KUL-ARN-EWR flights and I actually felt sorry for them! How could anyone actually complain about that? If anything, they should be given proper bunks or J class seats, not the marginally reclining seats in the back against the lavs.
 
chrisrad
Posts: 963
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2000 7:26 pm

RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting Sean-SAN- (Reply 33):
I saw the FA's sleeping in the last row of Y on my MH KUL-ARN-EWR flights and I actually felt sorry for them! How could anyone actually complain about that? If anything, they should be given proper bunks or J class seats, not the marginally reclining seats in the back against the lavs.

MH do have bunks for the staff, in addition to blocking off the last 2 seats in economy. On long sectors I have flown with speaking with the cabin crew they get about 3 hours off on a KUL-LHR flight
Welcome aboard Malaysia Airlines! Winner of Best Cabin Staff 2001,2002,2003,2004,2007,2009,2012
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:16 am

RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:30 am

My two cents: EK is and has always been a shitty airline!!!!!!!! They treat their employees like crap. I remember a FA I used to work with at Condor. She quit and went to work for Emirates only to return after a couple of months in Dubai and start all over again at Condor at the bottom of the seniority list!!! She had more than 5 years with Condor when she left, but she just couldn't deal with the work conditions and environment at Emirates and how the FA's were (and sill are) treated there. So starting all over at Condor after losing all of her seniority was still better than stay with Emirates. And that means it MUST be bad considering that the crew rest areas on Condor (just 4 Economy seats curtained off in front of the aft lavatories) aren't the greatest either!!!

As great and as wonderful the service on Emirates and other such carriers might be, I'd never fly and support them. They're employees are treated unfairly. Nobody ever tried to look behind the curtain. Of course they all seem to be happy and n good mood in public and in interviews. They have no choice... if they critisize the company they most certainly lose their jobs. So they're all afraid... which is understandable.

The FA I know from Condor told me stories about flights lasting up to 12 hours with virtually no rest period at all!!! Sitting on a box in the galley and even that wasn't really allowed and in violation of company rules!!!

Okay, one might argue that nobody is forced to work for Emirates, that is certainly true. But I find such an operation totally unsafe. I don't wanna be on an aircraft with overworked, overstressed, tired and by the company threatened flight attendants. I don't even wanna imagine what would happen in a landing accident! With FA's struggling to stay awayke on their jumpseats!

So we all have the choice.

I'd rather fly with a US or European airline, even if it would cost me more or I'd have to go through he hassle of changing planes twice or more... before ever setting foot on an Emirates plane!!!

Best regards

L1011Lover
 
TBCITDG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:17 am

RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:53 am

This is totally disgusting!
I cannot believe that crew have to resort to sleeping in the toilets!?!?!?!?
What are the managers doing about this . . . nothing I guess!

I know that LA have issues regarding crew rest as well. They do not have any bunks on their A340 as it will take up too much precious $$ cargo space, so the crew have 4 seats on flights ranging 10-13 hours! What a joke!
 
CXfirst
Posts: 2889
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:13 pm

RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:45 am

It really surprises me that the crew on DXB-PER-DXB cannot sleep a bit. Every time I fly this route, they seem very awake throughout the flight.

With EK having so many flights that are >5 hours (especially when it comes to 77W flights), I'm really surprised that they couldn't sacrifice some seats to get crew rests in all the aircrafts.

-CXfirst
 
FlyEmirates
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:48 am

RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:50 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):
EK offers 33'-34' pitch which is great

I can confirm that the pitch on 77L in 32' in Y Im certain on the 77W it is 32 also with a handfull at 33. The pitch on A345 is closer to 31" Why people keep going on about EKs supposed 34 inch pitch is a mystery to me.
 
QantasHeavy
Posts: 277
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:47 pm

RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:17 am

EK is known for working its crews hard without a lot of rest... which one would think has a safety consequence.

A lot of EK crew I have known used to love the company and job years ago but now really hate the company. It just does not sound like EK treats their people well.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:29 pm

Quoting Xtoler (Reply 2):
This has to be an exaggeration. 12 straight hours without a rest is not only careless, but unsafe.

Whatever. Physicians regularly pull 36+ hour shifts and perform delicate operations where peoples lives are literally in their hands. If a neurosurgeon can do it with what's a risk, certainly the FA can get me peanuts and a drink without any "safety" concerns. Stop the whinning.

This forum is delusional when it comes to the role of FA's in the big picture.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
chrisrad
Posts: 963
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2000 7:26 pm

RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:09 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 40):
Quoting Xtoler (Reply 2):
This has to be an exaggeration. 12 straight hours without a rest is not only careless, but unsafe.

Whatever. Physicians regularly pull 36+ hour shifts and perform delicate operations where peoples lives are literally in their hands. If a neurosurgeon can do it with what's a risk, certainly the FA can get me peanuts and a drink without any "safety" concerns. Stop the whinning.

This forum is delusional when it comes to the role of FA's in the big picture.

Firstly how much does a Physician earn?
Secondly, Physician has one life in their hand? not 400+ people being looked after by 14-16 crew? It's quite sad reading what you write considering it has been proven many times that in crashes, because of the FA's they were safely able to evacuate the aircraft in time. AF A340 comes to mind. Would you rather have an exhausted crew or a fresh and alert crew in that situation? Just answer that....
How would you like to work for 14 hours, and not get a proper break, or be forced to sleep in the toilet?
Welcome aboard Malaysia Airlines! Winner of Best Cabin Staff 2001,2002,2003,2004,2007,2009,2012
 
airbus1
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:14 pm

The sleeping in the toilet references are sad but all too true. Such a glamourous profession..........

Airbus1
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6039
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 6:10 pm

RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:27 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 31):
...again, possibly for domestic...but other governments and regulators aren't going to allow the "one large airline" whatever it wants...

Unfortunately I wish you were right but it is a little naive to think that it does not happen. Besides, many governments all over the world have rules which provide little for the crews and much for the airlines trying to make a profit. My airline flies zero domestic flights and gets away with things they really shouldn't do despite the fact that the flight times rules for us are already much better for crews than the minimum levels set by the governments which if the public really knew about would be horrified.
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:16 am

RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:35 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 40):
Whatever. Physicians regularly pull 36+ hour shifts and perform delicate operations where peoples lives are literally in their hands. If a neurosurgeon can do it with what's a risk, certainly the FA can get me peanuts and a drink without any "safety" concerns. Stop the whinning.

This forum is delusional when it comes to the role of FA's in the big picture.

Stop!!! This is comparing apples with bananas...

First of all I know exactly what I'm talking about because I've worked in the medical field for more than 11 years and as a flight attendant for 10 years now.

I used to work part-time as a registered nurse on a surgical ward doing night shifts beside my flying career (which is a full time position for me).

It's true that physicians regularly work shifts of up to 36 hours, but that's the max!!! And they definitely don't perform delicate, major operations on a scheduled basis when working 36 hour shifts. Usually young assistant physicians are the ones who have to work the long 36 hour shifts. And these shifts are usually fairly shared among all the assistants on a weekly basis. The ones working the 36 hour shift will staff the Emergency Room and will assist in a surgery only if absolutely necessary or in case of an emergency operation. Furthermore working 36 hours straight without any rest period occurs very, very rarely! Sometimes if they're lucky they can sleep all night long... but most certainly they have at least a few hours to rest. In any case I'd never deny that a person working a 36 hour shift isn't highly effective towards the end... no matter how much rest one had... you definitely can't relax and rest as if you were off duty.

Our (the nurses) night shift was usually 11 hours from 8pm till 7am and I can tell you that this could be very tiring as well. We were supposed to have a 1 hour break during the night meaning that one of us was on watch, while the other one was on break... we were 2 nurses taking care of 65 patients on a full ward... this was also highly unpractical... most of the time the physicians were more lucky than we were even though they were working the 36 hour shift.

36 hour shits shouldn't be allowed. But flights of 12 hours without any form of crew rest shouldn't be allowed either!

I'd most certainly call a 36 hour shift in the hospital very unsafe and as inhumane as a FA having to wok a 12 hour flight without any crew rest. And I often felt sorry for the young assistant physicians! But please keep in mind that the FA's work day can be as long as 24 hours without any chance of a break or some rest time. 12 hour is solely the flight itself from take-off till touchdown.

For a long haul flight most carriers require a 1 hour 45 minute sign in prior to departure which allows enough time for a proper briefing and all the preparations that need to be done before passenger boarding. Add to that at least 40 minutes of boarding from the first pre boarding setting foot on the plane until the last passenger hast stowed his bags and taken his seat... sometimes that process takes even longer. Then the plane pushes back from the gate an starts taxiing to the runway... this takes at least 15 minutes on most major airports but can also take up to an hour or even longer if there's a lot o traffic or a situation out of the norm arises... So you should add at least 3 hours to the flight time before take-off, add at least another hour for taxiing to the gate and deplaning after arrival - all the while the flight attendants are responsible for the passengers safety- ... they are from the moment the first passenger boards until the last one disembarks and even if there are no passengers onboard the flight attendants must be alert and are responsible for the safety of anyone entering the aircraft... from maintenance to cleaning to ground staff... and an evacuation might become necessary at any given time the flight attendants are on duty... even while the aircraft is parked at the gate and cleaned and catered...

Okay now we start doing the math: 12 hours pure flying time + 3:00 + 1:00 = 16 hours! That is for the operation of the flight itself! Then we have to go through immigration and customs which can be really quick but can take hours at some airports. MIA and LAX come to mind... I fly FRA-LAX trips on a regular basis... so I know what I'm talking about... It more than once took me 2 hours from the moment leaving the plane until taking my seat on the hotel van... now that would make up for 18 hours.

I personally live relatively close to the airport I'm based out of. It takes me 45-60 minutes to get to the airport depending on traffic. I drive there... some live a bit closer others live farther away and many, many crew members commute... Okay one might say that commuting is a personal decision and nobody has to... it can be looked at as a luxury and privilege but also as a hassle... some people just don't have a choice and must commute. Some people commute because home is where the heart is but others have to because they simply can't afford living in the city in which they're based at especially if they're new hires...

And finally let me tell you that the flight attendant job isn't solely about serving drinks and peanuts!!! Still I'm sure you'd be the first one to complain if the FA's serving you your drink an peanuts would fail to smile and giving you your much wanted attention because they'd be too tired!!!

Obviously you didn't realize it yet but it is not only a service position but also very much safety related. Just like nursing isn't solely about wiping off patients butts!!! Even in every days normal operation we ensure the safety of our passengers. As a result of great teamwork in the industry flying is one of the safest means of transportation and we - the flight attendants take an important part and play a major role in that...

By the way, what are you doing for a living? How would you like it if you'd have to work up to 18 hours without any chance of rest during that time??? Being in constant view of the public!!!???

I hate it when people start making wise comments about things they obviously don't have any clue about!

Asking for the opportunity to take a short break during a long work day definitely has nothing to do with whining Pope!!!

Best regards

L1011Lover
 
chrisrad
Posts: 963
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2000 7:26 pm

RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:50 pm

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 44):
Stop!!! This is comparing apples with bananas...

Thanks this is exactly what I wanted to say, agree 100% with your post.
Welcome aboard Malaysia Airlines! Winner of Best Cabin Staff 2001,2002,2003,2004,2007,2009,2012
 
caspritz78
Posts: 229
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:51 am

RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:12 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 40):
Physicians regularly pull 36+ hour shifts and perform delicate operations where peoples lives are literally in their hands

First: In more and more countries physicians fight against these long hours.
Second: Hospitals have rooms for their employees where physicians can legally take a nap.
Third: This thread is not about FAs in general. It is about how EK treats their employees. I really think that if EK really wants to join the elite league of airlines it needs more then "money". All the top airlines makes the differences because of their special service. Something that can't be bought with money. This can only be achieved with good training and with a good work atmosphere. Right now EK doesn't seem to care about the work atmosphere.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:19 pm

Quoting FlyEmirates (Reply 38):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):
EK offers 33'-34' pitch which is great

I can confirm that the pitch on 77L in 32' in Y Im certain on the 77W it is 32 also with a handfull at 33. The pitch on A345 is closer to 31" Why people keep going on about EKs supposed 34 inch pitch is a mystery to me.

....I've gone on personal experience (as mentioned, north of 15-20 times) as well as what many others have stated (from personal experience)....the seat pitch is certainly better than most carriers...

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 43):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 31):
...again, possibly for domestic...but other governments and regulators aren't going to allow the "one large airline" whatever it wants...

Unfortunately I wish you were right but it is a little naive to think that it does not happen. Besides, many governments all over the world have rules which provide little for the crews and much for the airlines trying to make a profit. My airline flies zero domestic flights and gets away with things they really shouldn't do despite the fact that the flight times rules for us are already much better for crews than the minimum levels set by the governments which if the public really knew about would be horrified.

...again, I'll have to respectfully disagree (though I wouldn't be surprised if what you are saying is partially correct).....nothing wrong with having opposing points of view... Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3541
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:38 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 40):
Physicians regularly pull 36+ hour shifts and perform delicate operations where peoples lives are literally in their hands



Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 44):
But please keep in mind that the FA's work day can be as long as 24 hours without any chance of a break or some rest time. 12 hour is solely the flight itself from take-off till touchdown.

Lets not forget that the Physicians do not cross multiple time zones whilst they are working, whereas the cabin crew as well as working shifts like L1011Lover mentioned also have to cope with time zone changes.

Think about how crappy you yourself feel after a l/haul flight when all you have been doing is sitting down and sleeping/watching tv - Cabin Crew are human beings too so they feel the same but Emirates is expecting them to be awake and alert for that whole time - sorry but that just is not possible without the aid of stimulants.

I think Emirates management should take some sort of Human Performance and Limitations Course to see exactly how draining long haul travel is on the brain and body.


 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: EK Cabin Crew Rest And Safety On Long Haul

Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:47 pm

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 44):
It's true that physicians regularly work shifts of up to 36 hours, but that's the max!!!

That may be the legal max but I personally have shadowed a surgeon when he was on for over 45 hours. I met him at the hospital after the first 24 hours and he operated almost non-stop (7 surgeries) while I was with him. His down time (the longest lasting about 15 minutes) was while the patients were being wheeled in and out between procedures. Five of the seven procedures involved work under the operative microscope and one of those was while he was wearing a 20 lb lead vest because the flouroscope was being used.

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 44):
And they definitely don't perform delicate, major operations on a scheduled basis when working 36 hour shifts. Usually young assistant physicians are the ones who have to work the long 36 hour shifts.

The physician I was shadowing was the chief resident. In none of the procedures did the attending spend more than 10 minutes in the OR.

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 44):
By the way, what are you doing for a living? How would you like it if you'd have to work up to 18 hours without any chance of rest during that time??? Being in constant view of the public!!!???

I run a company. I'm on 24/7. When the shit hits the fan, I'm the one who has to make the call as happened the other night as I was walking out of a football game at 12:30 AM and my cell phone rang. The call told me about an explosion and fire at one of our plants. I was on a jet to the facility within an hour and got to sleep for an hour at 7 PM that night and was up until 6 AM the following morning.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.

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