MAH4546
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LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:30 pm

The rumours were true. Lufthansa will launch Miami-Düsseldorf, operating daily except Tuesday, on 26Oct08, with an A340-300. Flight number is LH 465/466. It should be bookable within a week. If anybody remembers, a forum member made mention of MIA-DUS launching a few months ago in the same post that he mentioned the imminent announcement of FRA-MCO.

This is clear aimed squarely at Air Berlin. Air Berlin will offer daily service to Miami starting this summer, with five weekly flights to DUS and two weekly to MUC.

[Edited 2007-10-27 12:39:39]
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B747forever
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:48 pm

Hope it will work for LH.

Can LH really compete with AB about the fares on the tickets???
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JGPH1A
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:52 pm

Shot over the bows of AB - good luck. Wouldn't imagine a vast amount of business traffic on that route, but we'll see. Maybe they can feed some connecting traffic onto...someone (who?) beyond MIA.
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flyyul
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:53 pm

Amazing how Lufthansa could not make Munich-Miami work (LH's 2nd largest hub and larger OD), and is now going to launch 6/7 DUS.

Sometimes potential loss making routes are indeed valuable, for strategic reasons  Smile
 
B752OS
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:11 pm

Quoting Flyyul (Reply 3):

Sometimes potential loss making routes are indeed valuable, for strategic reasons

Well as MAH mentioned, this could be in response to AB and their MIA operations which could in turn hurt LH and their MIA operations.

My question is, which carrier will bow out first?
 
MAH4546
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:26 pm

Typical of B752OS to once again underestimate the market size without knowing much about it. Air Berlin isn't going anywhere so they are not bowing out at all. The market is clearly there for three daily Germany flights but Munich would be the better choice. The old Munich flight did not at all perform poorly (needless to say it was not a super star either) but was strategicaly pulled in order to beef up and strengthen Swiss' Zurich flight as there was concern it would begin to perform poorly following the end of the AA codeshare (which as not been the case). The flight will replace Toronto during the winter timetable and my source informs me it will operate at a reduced frequency during the summer if LH goes ahead with plans to base a fourth long haul plane at DUS in summer 2009. DUS is the largest O&D market between Miami and Germany and the sixth largest local Miami-Europe market, but I agree Munich would be a more sound choice.
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MAH4546
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:49 pm

Quoting Flyyul (Reply 3):
Amazing how Lufthansa could not make Munich-Miami work (LH's 2nd largest hub and larger OD)

MIA-DUS has larger O&D than MIA-MUC. Miami, as well as Southwest Florida, is extremely popular with residents of Rhine-Rhur region year-round.

During the 1980s, and until the mid-1990s, Lufthansa offered MIA-DUS flights to cater to this large market, in addition to LTU's flights.

[Edited 2007-10-27 14:58:00]
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B752OS
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:02 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
Typical of B752OS to once again underestimate the market size without knowing much about it. Air Berlin isn't going anywhere so they are not bowing out at all. The market is clearly there for three daily Germany flights but Munich would be the better choice. The old Munich flight did not at all perform poorly (needless to say it was not a super star either) but was strategicaly pulled in order to beef up and strengthen Swiss' Zurich flight as there was concern it would begin to perform poorly following the end of the AA codeshare (which as not been the case). The flight will replace Toronto during the winter timetable and my source informs me it will operate at a reduced frequency during the summer if LH goes ahead with plans to base a fourth long haul plane at DUS in summer 2009. DUS is the largest O&D market between Miami and Germany and the sixth largest local Miami-Europe market, but I agree Munich would be a more sound choice.

Typical of MAH to sit here and tell us how BIG the Miami market it. The point I was making is pretty simple, you even supported it, this is a move by LH to protect their turf. If the MIA-DUS market is so big to things come to mind. One, MIA-FRA probably handles a good amount of pax going MIA-DUS and 2, if the market is so big, why is LH just now starting it. My bet is thie flight doesn't last the more than 8-10 months.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):

MIA-DUS has larger O&D than MIA-MUC. Miami, as well as Southwest Florida, is extremely popular with residents of Rhine-Rhur region year-round.

During the 1980s, and until the mid-1990s, Lufthansa offered MIA-DUS flights to cater to this large market, in addition to LTU's flights.

And if this market is so big, why did LH cut it?
 
MAH4546
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:05 pm

Quoting B752OS (Reply 7):

Typical of MAH to sit here and tell us how BIG the Miami market it.

I didn't say it was so big (even though it's only 0.1% smaller than Boston-Europe), but I did say it is big enough to support three daily flights to Germany.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 7):
if the market is so big, why is LH just now starting it.

Lufthansa cut all long-haul operations out of Düsseldorf a while ago. Starting May 2008, they will once again base long-haul aircraft at DUS. They will fly to Newark, Toronto, Chicago, and, in October, Miami. There was no oppurtunity for Lufthansa to operate long-haul widebody service from DUS until now.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 7):
The point I was making is pretty simple, you even supported it, this is a move by LH to protect their turf.

It is, that doesn't mean it won't work and that one carrier will nessecarily concede the market to the other. Quite frankly, it's pretty given that Air Berlin isn't going anywhere with MIA, and it's also a given that Lufthansa isn't going to let Air Berlin have the Miami-Dusseldorf market - the largest local travel market between Miami and Germany - to themselves. So it's one of those situations where both airlines might be in it for the long-haul.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 7):
And if this market is so big, why did LH cut it?

A dramatic drop in tourist demand to Miami from Germany in the mid-1990s (that has since recovered) and discontinuation of all long-haul routes that were not from Frankfurt and Munich (they cut DUS-JFK and DUS-NRT, too).

[Edited 2007-10-27 15:09:01]

[Edited 2007-10-27 15:11:35]
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BA744PHX
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:41 pm

I thought LH was short on A343's?
 
B752OS
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:05 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
Quoting B752OS (Reply 7):

Typical of MAH to sit here and tell us how BIG the Miami market it.

I didn't say it was so big (even though it's only 0.1% smaller than Boston-Europe), but I did say it is big enough to support three daily flights to Germany.

What's your point? Why did you point out that Boston has a bigger market to Europe than Miami does? I never came in here stating that BOS deserves the flights over MIA or that Boston is bigger than Miami.

Quoting BA744PHX (Reply 9):
I thought LH was short on A343's?

Maybe they pulled this from another route?
 
MAH4546
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 10):
What's your point? Why did you point out that Boston has a bigger market to Europe than Miami does? I never came in here stating that BOS deserves the flights over MIA or that Boston is bigger than Miami.

I was simply pointing out the size of the market to give you a baseline comparison. The Miami-Europe, Boston-Europe, as well as San Francisco-Europe markets are all roughly the same size.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 10):
Quoting BA744PHX (Reply 9):
I thought LH was short on A343's?

Maybe they pulled this from another route?

Lufthansa is getting a fair amount of new long-haul capacity this year in the form of, I believe, new A330 deliveries. This will allow A340s to be pulled from current route. Three A340s will be based in Düsseldorf starting in May. They will operate year-round to Newark and Chicago, to Toronto during the summer, and Miami during the winter. A fourth A340 might be based in DUS in 2009 which would potentially allow Toronto and Miami to operate year-round if demand dictates.
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caspritz78
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:30 am

LH is adding capacities to DUS because not Boston, Miami or San Francisco are suddenly so attractive. The reason why they do it is because DUS is growing. It is now the third largest airport in Germany and over the last 15 years the area around Düsseldorf went through a huge change. Higher incomes and increased economy result into more people available to fly from DUS. Besides FRA and MUC, DUS is the third airport that offers LH business jet connections to the US. LH is not any longer just focusing on FRA and MUC. It has to add capacities elsewhere especially since FRA has no room to grow right now ( Wonder if we ever will see the third runway).
 
bagoldex
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:55 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
The Miami-Europe, Boston-Europe, as well as San Francisco-Europe markets are all roughly the same size

Not that you've ever been keen on citing sources, but where might one find these numbers? I don't wholly disagree on Boston and Miami although .1% sounds a little too close. San Francisco kind of baffles me though, at least depending upon our respective definitions of "the same size".
 
MAH4546
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:00 am

Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 13):

Not that you've ever been keen on citing sources, but where might one find these numbers? I don't wholly disagree on Boston and Miami although .1% sounds a little too close. San Francisco kind of baffles me though, at least depending upon our respective definitions of "the same size".

They've been posted here before. From the top of my head, MIA is 5.4%, as is SFO. BOS is 5.5%. MIA includes FLL (which is 1% of the market), but SFO doesn't include secondary airports as neither OAK nor SJC constitute more than 1% or more of US-Europe traffic, and I've never seen figures for those. I could imagine SJC skewing SFO up a few decimals. They come straight from DOT's reports.

It is O&D only, so somebody traveling MIA-ATL-ZRH is counted as MIA, but somebody flying MCO-MIA-LHR would be counted as MCO.

[Edited 2007-10-27 19:07:06]
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bagoldex
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:29 am

I see what you're saying, I was thinking we were talking about a 100% scale here where Boston is 100% and Miami 99.9%. I didn't realize you were using market share numbers, I should have but it's the weekend.

What are the others ahead of Boston, Miami/FLL and SFO? NY, Chicago, LA, DC? Also, where do places like Dallas, Houston and Philadelphia factor in? I would search but with the current state of that feature, it's probably not worth the next nineteen hours of my life.
 
MAH4546
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 15):

What are the others ahead of Boston, Miami/FLL and SFO? NY, Chicago, LA, DC? Also, where do places like Dallas, Houston and Philadelphia factor in?

I don't have the figures at the top of my head, but JFK/EWR is over 25% of the market. Washington was surprisingly small - smaller than Miami, Boston, and San Fran - but it does not include DCA, and I think that DCA sees a good amount of connecting traffic via JFK to Europe. Houston was up there, LA is at around 6-7%. I don't recall Philadelphia or Dallas' ranking.
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MAH4546
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:44 am

Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 12):
LH is adding capacities to DUS because not Boston, Miami or San Francisco are suddenly so attractive. The reason why they do it is because DUS is growing.

Indeed. People often forget how huge Düsseldorf is. Düsseldorf is the centre of the largest metropolitan area in Germany and the third largest metropolitan area in Europe, after Istanbul and Moscow. The Rhine-Rhur region is more heavily populated than Milan, London, and Paris!

It has been largely ignored by airlines for a few reasons, and the primary reasons is that the financial hub of Germany (and arguably mainland Europe) is Frankfurt itself. Nonetheless, there exists a huge market from DUS. Lufthansa is beginning to exploit this by offering flights to key markets like Chicago and Miami, although there is no doubting that Air Berlin's takeover of LTU, and its plan to turn them into a full-scale long-haul carrier, as opposed to a "holiday airline", is what set LH off into doing this. Before Air Berlin, and last year's entry of Northwest and Delta, Lufthansa had no incentive to base aircraft at DUS. Lufthansa suddenly entering market like MIA-DUS is not a question of "if there was a market, why was LH not in it earlier?". The answer is very simple: There was no competitive reason to do so!

I think a market exists for LH and Air Berlin to co-exist on certain key long-haul markets. The MIA-DUS market is larger than any other Germany-Florida market (and, during the winter, is even larger than New York-Düsseldorf), and I think people would be surprised at learning how much larger the market to DUS is to certain cities in Asia and North America, like Cape Town, Miami, Osaka, and Toronto, compared to other cities in Germany.
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JGPH1A
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:57 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
The MIA-DUS market is larger than any other Germany-Florida market (and, during the winter, is even larger than New York-Düsseldorf), and I think people would be surprised at learning how much larger the market to DUS is to certain cities in Asia and North America, like Cape Town, Miami, Osaka, and Toronto, compared to other cities in Germany.

These are all leisure markets though (with the possible exception of Osaka, but this may also inbound leisure business) - is LH able to make money on these ? AB might, because their costs are adjusted to meet these types of markets. LH's are not, necessarily.
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Avianca
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:01 am

Quoting BA744PHX (Reply 9):
I thought LH was short on A343's?

yes and I have to say there would be more d

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
will allow A340s to be pulled from current route. Three A340s will be based in Düsseldorf starting in May. They will operate year-round to Newark and Chicago, to Toronto during the summer, and Miami during the winter. A fourth A340 might be based in DUS in 2009 which would potentially allow Toronto and Miami to operate year-round if demand dictates.

well in my opinion it is not the best what they are doing....!! well the 4th hub.. for them, they still have to much lacks on the routemap from fra and muc in order to start long-houl flight from dus....

Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 12):
It is now the third largest airport in Germany and over the last 15 years

and remembe it was the second after fra for years, before bavaria (muc) made the race
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MAH4546
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:12 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 18):
These are all leisure markets though (with the possible exception of Osaka, but this may also inbound leisure business) - is LH able to make money on these ? AB might, because their costs are adjusted to meet these types of markets. LH's are not, necessarily.

Osaka is more of a VFR market, as DUS has the second largest Japanese immigrant community in Europe, after London.

It is true that the markets are leisure-oriented, so whether Lufthansa will be able to make a solid profit on routes like Toronto and Miami remains to be seen, especially compared to Air Berlin's lower cost structure that allows them to profit on these routes. In the end though, assuming the DUS long-haul routes are not profitable, the real question becomes if it is worth LH keeping these routes as loss-leaders (which all airlines have), that, even if they lose money, allow LH to maintain a competitive advantage in Germany's largest local travel market. That's why they are starting routes like MIA and YYZ. I highly doubt they are expecting to make a killing in these markets. Rather, they are attempting to retain key marketshare to some of Düsseldorf's biggest long-haul markets.
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johnnybgoode
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:42 pm

Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 12):
LH is adding capacities to DUS because not Boston, Miami or San Francisco are suddenly so attractive. The reason why they do it is because DUS is growing. It is now the third largest airport in Germany and over the last 15 years the area around Düsseldorf went through a huge change. Higher incomes and increased economy result into more people available to fly from DUS. Besides FRA and MUC, DUS is the third airport that offers LH business jet connections to the US. LH is not any longer just focusing on FRA and MUC. It has to add capacities elsewhere especially since FRA has no room to grow right now ( Wonder if we ever will see the third runway).

DUS can grow now because some slot restrictions were lifted, but it has been in third spot of German airports for many years now.
the reason why LH has offered business jet connection to EWR and ORD for the last 4-5 years lies in the fact, that they have to if they don't want to lose out on major corporate clients from the Rhine-Ruhr region. at the same time enabled it to axe money-losing A340 flights which were filled with low fare economy passengers in the back.
also, it is not that LH is looking for other places to expand its longhaul network besides MUC and FRA. despite slot constraints at those airports, the sheer amount of slots LH 'owns' at both hubs gives them every choice to put in more long-haul flights. this could mean axing some short haul flights, but the opportunities are there.
basing A340s at DUS is just a strategic decision to fight DL, NW, EK and especially AB/LT.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Indeed. People often forget how huge Düsseldorf is. Düsseldorf is the centre of the largest metropolitan area in Germany and the third largest metropolitan area in Europe, after Istanbul and Moscow. The Rhine-Rhur region is more heavily populated than Milan, London, and Paris!

although DUS is well accessible from the Rhine-Ruhr region, it is everything but surely not the centre of this metropolitan area. try going to Düsseldorf and telling the people DUS is Rhine-Ruhr, you will not make friends there.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Nonetheless, there exists a huge market from DUS. Lufthansa is beginning to exploit this by offering flights to key markets like Chicago and Miami, although there is no doubting that Air Berlin's takeover of LTU, and its plan to turn them into a full-scale long-haul carrier, as opposed to a "holiday airline", is what set LH off into doing this. Before Air Berlin, and last year's entry of Northwest and Delta, Lufthansa had no incentive to base aircraft at DUS. Lufthansa suddenly entering market like MIA-DUS is not a question of "if there was a market, why was LH not in it earlier?". The answer is very simple: There was no competitive reason to do so!

again, AB will not make LT a full-scale long-haul carrier. LT will serve leisure destinations will some A330s will be painted in AB colors and serve the business destinatinos.
however, i fully agree that this move by LH is purely a reaction on competitive grounds, a strategic choice to not let AB/LT run those routes profitably.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
I think a market exists for LH and Air Berlin to co-exist on certain key long-haul markets.

this is where i disagree. they can co-exist on this market as long as other routes can cross-subsidize DUS-MIA for both carriers. I have strong doubts both airlines will be able to run those services viably. i also think LH will not make money on its DUS-EWR and DUS-ORD runs, i think the A343 is the wrong plane for this, it is too large.

Quoting BA744PHX (Reply 9):
I thought LH was short on A343's?

LH being short on long-haul aircraft is a thing of the past. in 2008, LH will receive 5 A333s and 3 A346s, enabling LH to base some aircraft at DUS while at the same time opening up those other longhaul services mentioned in other threads (FRA-YYC, FRA-SEA, MUC-SIN).
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JoFMO
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:44 pm

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 21):

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Indeed. People often forget how huge Düsseldorf is. Düsseldorf is the centre of the largest metropolitan area in Germany and the third largest metropolitan area in Europe, after Istanbul and Moscow. The Rhine-Rhur region is more heavily populated than Milan, London, and Paris!

although DUS is well accessible from the Rhine-Ruhr region, it is everything but surely not the centre of this metropolitan area. try going to Düsseldorf and telling the people DUS is Rhine-Ruhr, you will not make friends there.

DUS is certainly in the center of the Rhine-Ruhr region. Rhine-Ruhr goes from Bonn in the south to Hamm in the west. It contains the major cities of Cologne, Dusseldorf, Essen and Dortmund. And DUS is right in the middle of it. The whole region has over 10 million inhabitants and is the biggest urban area in Germany. There is even a legal definition for the the region, have a look at the Landeswentwicklungsplan NRW.

Dusseldorf is therefore often referred as the desk of the Ruhrgebiet (the Ruhrgebiet is the industrial heartland between Duisburg and Dortmund and part of the greater Rhine-Ruhr Region) because of the traditional separation between the industry in the Ruhrgebiet and the offices in Dusseldorf.
 
LH748i
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:17 pm

Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 13):
Wonder if we ever will see the third runway

You mean the 4th rwy...
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Humberside
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:46 pm

LH have also gradually been increasing short haul at DUS - I doubt this is significant but it will help provide a few extra passengers for these new transtlanmtic flights
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MAH4546
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 24):
LH have also gradually been increasing short haul at DUS - I doubt this is significant but it will help provide a few extra passengers for these new transtlanmtic flights

Indeed. DUS can offer a more efficient alternative for connecting, but, as you mentioned, I don't think LH is aiming heavily for connections.
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krsw757
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:49 am

Hey MAH4546, do you think a continuing service to RSW would work like LTU did a few years ago. I don't know how the german market is over there, but it is a fairly good size here. I know its mostly just wishful thinking, but I would love to see LH bird here every once in a while.
 
MAH4546
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:53 am

Quoting Krsw757 (Reply 26):
Hey MAH4546, do you think a continuing service to RSW would work like LTU did a few years ago. I don't know how the german market is over there, but it is a fairly good size here. I know its mostly just wishful thinking, but I would love to see LH bird here every once in a while.

No, it won't. Those kind of tag on flights are extremely expensive. Ft. Myers is a pure leisure market and is almost entirely one-way traffic from Germany. It is best left to Air Berlin, which does well there, and whose business model can support leisure flights. Lufthansa, with a 3-class product, would never be able to make RSW work.
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jetpixx
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:42 am

I apologize if this is information is handily available - or repetitive - but what kind of aircraft will Air Berlin use on their flights? Thanks!
 
MAH4546
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:29 pm

Quoting Jetpixx (Reply 28):
I apologize if this is information is handily available - or repetitive - but what kind of aircraft will Air Berlin use on their flights? Thanks!

All Air Berlin flights to the U.S. will be operated by LTU A330s.
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Glareskin
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:40 pm

DUS would be a natural hub for LH. For some strategic reason LH 'hubbed' only in FRA and MUC. But now, forced by the stiff competition from AB, CO, DL, EK and others they will give DUS more and more international status and thus a hub function.
For sure I will going to use more of LH this way. This could work very well!
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ZRH
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:28 pm

Quoting Flyyul (Reply 3):
Amazing how Lufthansa could not make Munich-Miami work (LH's 2nd largest hub and larger OD), and is now going to launch 6/7 DUS.

I am not sure if it performed badly. I rather think that they gave it up because two flights a day from MUC and ZRH (which are really close together) are too many.
 
MAH4546
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:43 pm

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 31):
I am not sure if it performed badly. I rather think that they gave it up because two flights a day from MUC and ZRH (which are really close together) are too many.

That is exactly why. It didn't perform poorly - it was even extended by three entire months after a strong start. However, when Lufthansa bought Swiss, they decided that it was important to reinforce the Miami-Zurich market. Miami had always been a top performing station for Swiss, and the American Airlines codeshare was a big help. Swiss lost that codeshare, so LH knew they had to take steps to keep the route a solid performer. So they ended Munich, increased frequency to Miami by two weekly flights (to daily), and added a Lufthansa codeshare to the MIA-ZRH flight (among Swiss' US flights, only MIA and LAX have LH codeshares). It's worked great. Despite the loss of the AA codeshare, Swiss' load-factors to Miami actually went up, and they are further boosting capacity and re-introducing first class on the route this summer with an upgrade to an A340. They did everything right to make sure that Swiss' Miami flight kept going strong, and they can now re-focus their efforts on developing a second daily Miami flight on Lufthansa metal. If Detroit can have two daily Lufthansa flights, it shouldn't be much of an issue for Miami, although it certainly isn't going to be as easy maintaining strong yields to Düsseldorf as it would be the Frankfurt or Munich hubs.
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MAH4546
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:35 pm

Also, this hasn't been brought up, but one way that Air Berlin and Lufthansa could possibly co-exist on MIA-DUS is if Air Berlin simply reduces service. Rather than try to play hardball with Lufthansa, Air Berlin could potentially reduce MIA-DUS service to 3x weekly, and increase MIA-MUC to 4x weekly, or maybe they can replace two weekly MIA-DUS flights with two weekly MIA-TXL flights, as Berlin is now a long-haul aircraft for LTU/Air Berlin. Plenty of things they can do.

In addition, we don't know Air Berlin/LTU's winter schedule for next year. Air Berlin/LTU typically reduces Miami service during the winter months. Even though Miami's tourist season is the winter, for whatever reasons they are, Air Berlin/LTU has an unusually high number of Miami point-of-sale passengers.

It should also be noted that with the switch to the summer 2008 timetable, Lufthansa is re-timing a lot of short-haul flights at DUS to provide quick connections to the new Chicago, Miami, Newark, and Toronto flights.

[Edited 2007-10-29 15:01:59]
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johnnybgoode
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:10 am

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 30):
DUS would be a natural hub for LH. For some strategic reason LH 'hubbed' only in FRA and MUC.

it's the lack of slots (artificially restricted by local authorities) and the inability to expand the airport that much. MUC has much greater space and less restrictions on traffic, so MUC is the better choice.
but i agree, in general the region CGN/DUS + Ruhrgebiet offers lots of O&D traffic. ... if authorities had opted to build one single airport for CGN and DUS (which was discussed in the 70s or 80s, i think) I'm sure this airport could at least be no.2 in Germany.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
Glareskin
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:15 am

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 34):
I'm sure this airport could at least be no.2 in Germany.

Yes, and looking at the current expansions (just read that AB is starting flights to PVG and PEK) it seems like the slot restrictions are disappearing and they are aiming at number 2. Artificial restrictions could be going away of course.....
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:21 pm

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 35):
Yes, and looking at the current expansions (just read that AB is starting flights to PVG and PEK) it seems like the slot restrictions are disappearing and they are aiming at number 2. Artificial restrictions could be going away of course.....

it is correct that some restrictions have been lifted, but this won't make DUS a serious competitor against MUC. with the expansion AB and countermeasures by LH DUS will surely grow larger than it is now, but DUS won't be able to catch up with MUC.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
Glareskin
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:07 pm

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 36):
it is correct that some restrictions have been lifted, but this won't make DUS a serious competitor against MUC. with the expansion AB and countermeasures by LH DUS will surely grow larger than it is now, but DUS won't be able to catch up with MUC.

As long as they'll keep expanding the international flights I'm OK with the number 3 spot......
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
flyyul
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:07 pm

MAh4546,

I dont buy the argument. Firstly, LH was not affiliated to LX when MIAMUC was operating. Secondly, the T100 load factors showed some softness of MUC, with good month only in Dec, and March.

You dont have to buy what im saying, but with all due respect, in any market, there are winners and losers.
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:01 pm

I don't have the outbound schedule from MIA, but inbound:

LH 466 DUS 1145-1705 MIA xTu 343

It is interesting to note that LH 466/467 is the same exact flight number that was assigned to Lufthansa's old MIA-DUS flights that operate roughly between 1987 and 1994, three times a week with, at least at first, DC-10s.

The timing of the flight is in between the early afternoon Frankfurt departure and the evening Zürich flight, so they are definitely maximizing their departures/arrival schedules from Miami.

Also, word form German media is that there might be more than just Miami added:

http://www.markenpost.de/news_Luftha...ebot-ab-Duesseldorf-auf_17222.html

Quoting Flyyul (Reply 38):
Firstly, LH was not affiliated to LX when MIAMUC was operating.

MIA-MUC ended the winter that LX and LH were first affilated. You don't have to "buy" my argument, but I personally know it's fact.
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MAH4546
Topic Author
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RE: LH To Start MIA-DUS

Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:39 am

Final schedule:

LH 466 DUS 1145-1705 MIA xTu 343
LH 467 MIA 1855-0850+1 DUS xTu 343
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