klwright69
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CO And Latin America

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:20 pm

Just a question, CO has been growing aggressively across the North Atlantic. They have been growing to Asia with the recent awarding of EWR-PVG. With the arrival of the 787, CO plans to add more destinations in Asia and India, or so word has it here.

What is CO planning for Latin America? CO is already so huge in Mexico and Central America, which is already widely known. But it seems DL is surpassing them to South America. Which is too bad since CO landed in South America before DL (I remember their first South America services were Ecuador and Colombia). I would love to see CO bring back EWR-GIG. Do they want to add EWR-EZE, which they nearly started a few years back? I know it currently runs through IAH, but do they want a standalone nonstop from EWR? Any interest in the rest of South America? SCL did not work the first time, I am sure they will return at some point in the future, but nothing stated yet....

Again, I am just curious about CO's intentions since CO has shown much more interest in Europe and Asia as of late.
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:32 pm

CO do not have sufficient long haul aircraft right now to add more flights to deep South America. With the arrival of the 787's look for CO to add EWR-EZE, IAH-GIG nonstop on a seasonal basis, and perhaps, IAH-SCL. I could also see CO adding a direct service into ASU.

CO is big...VERY big in Central America, but it is #3 in South America, behind AA and DL.
 
dutchjet
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:43 pm

CO's lack of growth in South America has a lot to do with the airline's shortage of longhaul aircraft.....look for expansion in that part of the world after the 787 joins CO's fleet. While many 787s will be used to open new routes to Asia, India, etc....some will find their way to South America and/or 787s could take over certain routes now flown by the 767/777 will be operated by the 787 in the future, and the displaced 767/777 aircraft will be assigned to expand routes to Latin America. For example, many expect CO to launch IAH-SCL with a 762ER and many expect CO to upgrade IAH-EZE with a 772ER just as soon as CO has taken delivery of a number of 787s.
 
tpaewr
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:02 pm

'08 will see the start of a 3rd bank to Cen America @noon-ish, some cities are already loaded. Thus becoming 2X or 3X daily. The scdl varies by city and day but for example IAH-SJO will have an AM,midday,and a PM flight.
 
CV990
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:08 pm

Hi!

Maybe CO is not has big has other US airlines but in my case I flew EWR to BOG and they had two daily flights, one from EWR and another from IAH, both with the 737-700 and in both my flights the planes were almost full!!!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
DesertAir
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:22 pm

I was doing some research for future trips to South America. With CO's partnership with COPA of Panama, there are a number of South American cities served. If CO was to expand into South America, what would be their US city for these flights: Houston or Newark? AA's Miami Hub is perfect for their Central and South American network. Could CO use LAX as a South American Hub? I recognize their presence there is not strong.
 
dutchjet
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:42 pm

Quoting DesertAir (Reply 5):
If CO was to expand into South America, what would be their US city for these flights: Houston or Newark? AA's Miami Hub is perfect for their Central and South American network. Could CO use LAX as a South American Hub? I recognize their presence there is not strong

IAH is a very good Latin American gateway.....look for most of CO's latin american expansion to be out of IAH with possibly a key route or two out of EWR. While MIA is the premier and most powerful Latin American hub/gateway, IAH is a strong Latin American gateway (especially for Central American destinations) due its geographic location and CO's powerful hub operation at that city. While it is possible that one or more airlines will launch LAX-South America services (its been discussed often here at a.net), it wont be CO that will do it......CO has no plans to expand its LAX domestic operations which would provide the necessary feed to support such flights. Some have suggested that DL or UA will launch LAX-South America services; time will tell. Note that, historically, yields on LAX-South America services are not very good, consider the long distances involved....its a very long way from LAX to GRU to EZE.
 
G5ive
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:45 pm

But my question is, why is it that CO and some other american carriers only have 1 daily flight to SDQ? American has more than 10 daily flights from 4 of their hubs.  wideeyed 
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MAH4546
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:45 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):
While MIA is the premier and most powerful Latin American hub/gateway, IAH is a strong Latin American gateway (especially for Central American destinations) due its geographic location and CO's powerful hub operation at that city.

In addition, Houston has strong business and cultural ties to Central America and Venezuela.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):
Note that, historically, yields on LAX-South America services are not very good, consider the long distances involved....its a very long way from LAX to GRU to EZE.

Not only that, but the market is not as large as people think it is. Outside of Bogotá and Lima, the Los Angeles-South America market is quite small.
a.
 
TACAA320
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:00 pm

Quoting Tpaewr (Reply 3):
The scdl varies by city and day but for example IAH-SJO will have an AM,midday,and a PM flight.

And also serve LIR.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
klwright69
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:48 am

Maybe CO will apply for IAH-MDE. But I think MAH said CO doesn't even use all their Colombia frequencies in another thread.

I think I saw a CO timetable from MANY, MANY years ago, where they went from IAH to Maracaibo. Maybe that could return. But all I know about Maracaibo is that its in Venezuela.

Maybe CO can follow DL's route, and replace routes to Europe with 757's and start more new cities that can only be served with widebody equipment.
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:06 am

Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 10):
Maybe CO will apply for IAH-MDE. But I think MAH said CO doesn't even use all their Colombia frequencies in another thread.

Correct. They can use their IAH-CLO frequencies to fly IAH-MDE. They might apply for new frequencies, but if they don't show a commitment to utilize all that they have right now year-round, they will not get any new ones.

Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 10):

I think I saw a CO timetable from MANY, MANY years ago, where they went from IAH to Maracaibo. Maybe that could return. But all I know about Maracaibo is that its in Venezuela.

Venezuela is not approving expanded USA-Venezuela flights. What you see is what you get for a while. Also, USA-Venezuela traffic has collapsed in the past few years outside of traffic to South Florida, which has exploded. The reason is a dramatic drop in U.S. investment in the country, but a dramatic increase in wealthy Venezuelans moving to Miami and Fort Lauderdale as their primary residence, but maintaining Venezuelan residency and possibly businesses, and flying home very often.
a.
 
CALMSP
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting G5ive (Reply 7):

we often fly 2x EWR-SDQ on saturday's!! If thats any consolation!!
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:36 am

Quoting G5ive (Reply 7):
American has more than 10 daily flights from 4 of their hubs.

American dominates the Dominican market. They carry more airline passengers from the Dominican Republic than any other airline, even domestic Dominican airlines. This winter they will have, IIRC, up to sixteen daily flights to SDQ - seven from San Juan, four from Miami, three from New York, one from Fort Lauderdale, and four weekly from Boston.
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STT757
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:25 pm

Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 10):
Maybe CO can follow DL's route, and replace routes to Europe with 757's and start more new cities that can only be served with widebody equipment.

Not going to happen, CO will continue to grow in Latin America with 737-800s and new 737-900ERs until the 787s show up. CO has 25 firm and 35 options for 787s

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
Correct. They can use their IAH-CLO frequencies to fly IAH-MDE. They might apply for new frequencies, but if they don't show a commitment to utilize all that they have right now year-round, they will not get any new ones.

IAH-MDE and EWR-CLO/MDE are two addtional routes CO would well with to Colombia, Northern New Jersey has a very large Colombian population. Avianca used to fly EWR-CLO-MDE with a daily 757-200 until they partnered with DL and moved to JFK.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:40 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 14):
Avianca used to fly EWR-CLO-MDE with a daily 757-200 until they partnered with DL and moved to JFK.

Avianca partnered with Delta only about 3-4 years ago. They were flying to JFK well before that. They've been flying to JFK, IIRC, since the 1950s or 1960s. They've been flying JFK-MDE-CLO for over a decade, if not more.
a.
 
luisca
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:35 pm

Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 10):
I think I saw a CO timetable from MANY, MANY years ago, where they went from IAH to Maracaibo. Maybe that could return. But all I know about Maracaibo is that its in Venezuela.

CM already flies PTY-MAR with ongoing connection to IAH provided by CO so no need for a CO dedicated flight.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
masseybrown
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:23 pm

According the the DOT's P-12 data base AA, CO, and DL earned the following net income in Latin America:

CO Q1/07 $139.7 million
CO Q2/07 $120.1 million

CO first half total $259.8 million

AA Q1/07 $116.7 million
AA Q2/07 $47.5 million

AA first half total $$164.2 million

DL Q1/07 -$29.8 million (loss)
DL Q2/07 $83.3 million

DL first half total $54.0 million

I have to caution that the profit distribution shown by the P-12 database is subject to manipulation based on allocation of fixed expenses, depreciation of intangibles, etc. Often the airlines' goal is to put the profits where they will be taxed the least. So while it isn't fair to say that Delta flies for the fun of it (DL's numbers were also distorted by bankruptcy items), the profit differences are probably indicative of general results in the region.

[Edited 2007-10-28 13:27:01]
 
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STT757
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:41 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
Avianca partnered with Delta only about 3-4 years ago. They were flying to JFK well before that. They've been flying to JFK, IIRC, since the 1950s or 1960s. They've been flying JFK-MDE-CLO for over a decade, if not more.

Prior to moving all flights to JFK Avianca flew EWR-MDE-CLO with a 757-200 daily, their Bogota flights always flew from JFK (for a very long time as you pointed out). I made no mention of any other Avianca flights from EWR other than the MDE-CLO daily flight, it left real early in the Morning.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
They've been flying JFK-MDE-CLO for over a decade, if not more.

Not a decade, perhaps 5-6 years. Here's a photo from 1999, Avianca did not fly from both JFK and EWR to CLO and MDE. BOG flights went from JFK and the CLO and MDE flights left from EWR, this was the case until about 5-6 years ago.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Vasco Garcia



http://www.cruisinaltitude.com/images/b757/avb757gewrl.jpg

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...story/07-23-1999/0000988447&EDATE=
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
worldtraveler
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 17):
So while it isn't fair to say that Delta flies for the fun of it (DL's numbers were also distorted by bankruptcy items), the profit differences are probably indicative of general results in the region.

While it is true that CO is very profitable in Latin America with the highest operating profit margin of any US airline, neither CO or AA are growing their Latin America network much - of late no more than 5%. In contrast, DL is growing Latin America on a 30% or more rate per year. Growth is costly and DL is clearly taking a hit on its profit margins in order to gain a larger share of the market.

However, it also is true that DL's network operating profit margin is 30-50% better than AA or CO because DL's domestic system is much more profitable - in fact, CO's domestic system loses money and has for a number of years. DL is subsidizing its international system from its domestic system while CO is doing just the opposite.
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:01 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 18):
Not a decade, perhaps 5-6 years. Here's a photo from 1999, Avianca did not fly from both JFK and EWR to CLO and MDE. BOG flights went from JFK and the CLO and MDE flights left from EWR, this was the case until about 5-6 years ago.

Thanks for the correction, I didn't know that. Though I know for certain that Avianca was operating JFK-MDE-CLO as far back as the end of 2000.
a.
 
masseybrown
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:13 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19):
CO's domestic system loses money and has for a number of years. DL is subsidizing its international system from its domestic system while CO is doing just the opposite.

No disagreement. That is why I added the comment about airlines deliberately distorting regional results. That's also why , for overall comparisons, I like to rely on bottom-line net income, which is less subject to distortion than most other measures. It seems fair, however, to rank relative regional profitability as the P-12 shows it.

It's also very fair to say that DL is planning for the long term.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:11 pm

Agree, Massey, other than costs and revenues really can't be easily moved around. There are accounting standards and all of the big six US airlines are publicly traded and thus subject to the same accounting and reporting requirements. I think CO and DL's differences in results are due to their strategies and their ability to be profitabe to varying degrees in spite of losses in one region or the other. DL and CO are the most interesting of the US airlines in that CO has apparently been unable to make its domestic system profitable while DL has been willing for several years to be barely breakeven on its int'l system while allowing its domestic system to make money (note that even during DL's worst days its domestic system was break even on an operating basis while its international losses were much larger). CO does appear to be narrowing their domestic losses and DL is cutting int'l capacity that doesn't appear to be profitable and redeploying it where it apparently can make money so there is hope that both will be profitable throughout their systems. Other carriers have had varying degrees of profiability in different regions but seem to be more aggressive in fixing the problems, including pulling down capacity. CO is adding capacity to its domestic system despite being one of the few carriers that lose money in the region while DL is adding capacity on its international system while its biggest regions - transatlantic and Latin America have yet to be acceptably profitable on a year round basis.
 
luisca
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RE: CO And Latin America

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 22):
CO is adding capacity to its domestic system despite being one of the few carriers that lose money in the region while DL is adding capacity on its international system while its biggest regions - transatlantic and Latin America have yet to be acceptably profitable on a year round basis.

I think that 5 to 10 years from now we will all be talking about how DL and CO were brilliant in establishing themselves as dominant carrier in Latin America. DL is not as profitable in this market mainly because of the constant expansion, but it will pay off IMO.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
masseybrown
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RE: CO And Latin America

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:24 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 22):
There are accounting standards and all of the big six US airlines are publicly traded and thus subject to the same accounting and reporting requirements.

True, but within GAAP and DOT rules, there is still room to swing a pretty big cat. Take for example the recent terminal improvement costs DL incurred at JFK and CO incurred in IAH. One airline could decide to allocate the cost to regional operations by the percentage of domestic and international revenues generated while the other could say the expansion was intended solely to increase international flying and therefore all costs will be allocated to international. Either choice would be within the rules but could drastically affect the profits reported in the different regional segments.

Other examples: The airlines legitimately depreciate their planes (even identical models) over different numbers of years and also charge-off intangibles in differing ways. There are lots of perfectly legal differences among airlines' accounting methods, which is why financial analysts earn serious money.

Speaking of intangibles, we ought to see UA and AA writing their LHR routes down to zero.  Wink
 
2travel2know
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RE: CO And Latin America

Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:52 pm

IMHO, CO isn't taking full advantage of its relation with CM.
Onlly 2 northbound and 1 southbound CO flights fit CM hub hours.
If CO wants to quickly gain more Latinamerican market they should add another EWR-PTY-EWR, this one to fit CM evening hub bank and probably add a flight from one of its focus cities where CM most likely won't feel like flying rigthnow.
I'm thinking airports like ORD or MDW, since big UA and AA aren't interested to fly Chicago-Panama and maybe ONT for CM doesn't have morning PTY-California departure and California-PTY evening arrival (Cm already flies to LAX).
Aslo even a Saturday CLE-PTY and Sunday PTY-CLE would come handy.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
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STT757
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RE: CO And Latin America

Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:58 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 20):
Thanks for the correction, I didn't know that. Though I know for certain that Avianca was operating JFK-MDE-CLO as far back as the end of 2000.

I worked in Downtown Newark on Halsey Street in 2002, I would drive past Newark Airport M-F during my Morning commute on the Turnpike. As folks who have driven the Turnpike could attest you have a great view of Terminal B while zooming past, I would see the Avianca 757 every morning (it was one of the only aircraft at the IAB at 7:30 in the Morning). This was in 2002, so Avianca was still flying EWR-CLO/MDE as late as 2002.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: CO And Latin America

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:45 pm

Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 10):
I think I saw a CO timetable from MANY, MANY years ago, where they went from IAH to Maracaibo.

Continental was awarded this route after Braniff collapsed in May, 1982. The route was actually IAH-Maracaibo-Caracas. CO suspended it within a year or two.

Ironically, the authority had originally belonged to Delta. Delta (and before that Chicago & Southern, which merged with DL in 1955) flew New Orleans-Maracaibo-Caracas since the 1940s. Delta dropped the route in the late 1970s. Braniff took the route over, and moved it from New Orleans to Houston.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 24):
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 22):
There are accounting standards and all of the big six US airlines are publicly traded and thus subject to the same accounting and reporting requirements.

True, but within GAAP and DOT rules, there is still room to swing a pretty big cat.

For many years, Braniff allocated a very high percentage of management salaries to its South American routes, so they would only show a minimal profit on the routes. Braniff did this because they were afraid if their profits on the routes were too high, South American governments would find ways to increase Braniff's operating costs, or make things difficult in other ways.

The new management that took over after Harding Lawrence was fired in 1980 was unaware of the allocation - this caused them to sell the routes to Eastern for just $30 million. Eastern subsequently sold the routes to AA 8 years later for more than ten times the price EA had paid BN!

It is very easy to adjust how overheads are allocated for tax or political reasons.
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yellowtail
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RE: CO And Latin America

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:46 pm

Quoting Tpaewr (Reply 3):
'08 will see the start of a 3rd bank to Cen America @noon-ish,

Didn't know this.....will they be adding a 3rd daily IAH-BZE?....it is already 2X and 3X on Sat....and those flights are usually pretty full
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO And Latin America

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:23 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 26):

I worked in Downtown Newark on Halsey Street in 2002, I would drive past Newark Airport M-F during my Morning commute on the Turnpike. As folks who have driven the Turnpike could attest you have a great view of Terminal B while zooming past, I would see the Avianca 757 every morning (it was one of the only aircraft at the IAB at 7:30 in the Morning). This was in 2002, so Avianca was still flying EWR-CLO/MDE as late as 2002.

I have old Avianca timetables and OAG timetables from that time. Avianca was not flying to Newark in 2002. After 9.11 they cut their inter-continental destinations to only Miami, Madrid, and JFK.

Just double checked. Avianca flew EWR-MDE-CLO between 1996 and 1998, operating FrSaSu to EWR/MoSaSu from EWR. It was a 757-200.

[Edited 2007-10-29 09:38:12]
a.
 
masseybrown
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RE: CO And Latin America

Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:07 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 27):
The new management that took over after Harding Lawrence was fired in 1980 was unaware of the allocation - this caused them to sell the routes to Eastern for just $30 million. Eastern subsequently sold the routes to AA 8 years later for more than ten times the price EA had paid BN!

I once heard the story that Eastern hired Braniff's Latin Division accountants when they bought the S.A. routes. If this is true, EA knew how to manage the books as well.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: CO And Latin America

Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:08 pm

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 1):
CO do not have sufficient long haul aircraft right now to add more flights to deep South America. With the arrival of the 787's look for CO to add EWR-EZE, IAH-GIG nonstop on a seasonal basis

CO will try as soon as Brazil increases it's bilateral with United States to run not a seasonal, but a year-round IAH-GIG flight. Oil could explain this and also it's CO Brazil desire. With that they should include a leg on the EWR flight.

Quoting Klwright69 (Thread starter):
I would love to see CO bring back EWR-GIG.

I always says, the first to fly NYC-GIG will take care of a profitable market without competition.

Felipe
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adriaticus
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RE: CO And Latin America

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:37 am

Whereas most of the foregoing posts show knowledge and savvy opinions, only Worldtraveler (Reply 19) seemed to tangentially address one aspect which may not be minor:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19):
it is true that CO is very profitable in Latin America with the highest operating profit margin of any US airline, neither CO or AA are growing their Latin America network much - of late no more than 5%. In contrast, DL is growing Latin America on a 30% or more rate per year. Growth is costly and DL is clearly taking a hit on its profit margins in order to gain a larger share of the market.

I happen to travel long haul to South America between 6 and 10 times a year. I do my bookings, sometimes in advance, sometimes impromptu. In virtually all occasions CO happens to be extremely expensive in comparison with every other airline. As a result, over the years I've ended up flying AM, AR, AV, CM, DL, LA, MX, RG, TA and what not, but never CO (due high prices) and AA (my personal choice not to fly with them unless absolutely necessary - albeit AA is every so often the cheapest option via their MIA hub).

My point is, PRICE may also be, together with all the very valid reasons and opinions verted in the foregoing posts, one more answer to the original question of why CO does not have a larger market share in Latin America, and thus why doesn't it show more interest in expanding its presence there...

My two cents...

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Lear777
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RE: CO And Latin America

Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:01 pm

The end of this year and the beginning of next year will see growth to SJO, GUA, MGA, PTY, LIR, CUN, etc.

Brian
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yellowtail
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RE: CO And Latin America

Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:42 pm

Quoting Adriaticus (Reply 32):

I happen to travel long haul to South America between 6 and 10 times a year. I do my bookings, sometimes in advance, sometimes impromptu. In virtually all occasions CO happens to be extremely expensive in comparison with every other airline. As a result, over the years I've ended up flying AM, AR, AV, CM, DL, LA, MX, RG, TA and what not, but never CO (due high prices) and AA (my personal choice not to fly with them unless absolutely necessary - albeit AA is every so often the cheapest option via their MIA hub).

My point is, PRICE may also be, together with all the very valid reasons and opinions verted in the foregoing posts, one more answer to the original question of why CO does not have a larger market share in Latin America, and thus why doesn't it show more interest in expanding its presence there...

Maybe their price is higher becasue their yield management is working well and their planes are fuller.

If I tried to book a CO BZE-IAH for next march right now...most of their flights are full.....hardly the same for US, DL and AA. IMHO, and I can only speak of the BZE station, CO flights fill up first then the others get the overflow....

Why is that.. is a mystery, ...probably a combination of good airline, good service, good schedule, loyal travellers, good advertising and commitment to market (travellers know that in general CO will have its service there in 4 months..not like DL and their "constant adjustment" approach.

Look at how long CO has taken losses at CLO.....DL would have bailed a long time ago.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO And Latin America

Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:48 pm

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 34):
Look at how long CO has taken losses at CLO.....DL would have bailed a long time ago.

No they wouldn't. Delta has been taking losses at Latin stations, including Belize, for years. They haven't bailed.
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yellowtail
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RE: CO And Latin America

Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:40 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 35):
No they wouldn't. Delta has been taking losses at Latin stations, including Belize, for years. They haven't bailed.

They bailed on MID. and your statement is not true..by their own admission, they were doing great at BZE till they went daily with the 738 and the low season hit..they didn't stick it out and started messing with the schedule that people were jsut starting to get used to....travel agents got skittish that they would bail after DL gave the Tourism Board an ultimatum so sent their pax via CO....now they seem to have found a profitable mix of CRJ (with a daily and a RON on Sat) and a seasonal LAX....in fact their loads during the very low season of Oct have been a pleasant surprise.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: CO And Latin America

Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:55 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 31):
CO will try as soon as Brazil increases it's bilateral with United States to run not a seasonal, but a year-round IAH-GIG flight. Oil could explain this and also it's CO Brazil desire. With that they should include a leg on the EWR flight.

I think everybody is already tired about CO plans iregarding GIG. The airline seems to be satisfied with the one-stop operation via GRU. To be honest, if the airline wanted, it could have opened the route before. Just look at what DL did when it decided to open ATL-GIG. It applied for UA´s dorman positions and managed to increase frequencies to Brazil.

Even in GRU I think slowly CO is missing the boat. DL has a strong focus in GRU, has opened a dedicated Crown Lounge (one of the first outside the US), and has more frequencies and added flights...

All in all, one has to accept that CO has currently the best product between the US and Brazil - my opinion.

Rgs,
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: CO And Latin America

Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:31 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 37):
Even in GRU I think slowly CO is missing the boat. DL has a strong focus in GRU, has opened a dedicated Crown Lounge (one of the first outside the US), and has more frequencies and added flights...

CO has 2 daily flights to GRU, CO's associated airline CM has 2 more, so why there's no President Club in GRU? But if DL opened a Crown Lounge, I would think that eventually SkyTeam AF, KL, CO and CM passengers will get to use it too.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
B752OS
Posts: 608
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

RE: CO And Latin America

Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:11 pm

Quoting Luisca (Reply 23):
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 22):
CO is adding capacity to its domestic system despite being one of the few carriers that lose money in the region while DL is adding capacity on its international system while its biggest regions - transatlantic and Latin America have yet to be acceptably profitable on a year round basis.

I think that 5 to 10 years from now we will all be talking about how DL and CO were brilliant in establishing themselves as dominant carrier in Latin America. DL is not as profitable in this market mainly because of the constant expansion, but it will pay off IMO.

Are you saying that in 5-10 years both CO and DL will surpass AA in the region? Or are you saying that combined, the 2 will surpass AA to the region. Personally, I don't believe DL or CO will pass AA to the region. They have MIA, which is to Latin America, what JFK is to Europe, on a smaller scale though. If AA can establish a solid route network throughout the souteast via erjs, then I think AA will be the dominant carrier for a long time.
 
toxtethogrady
Posts: 1705
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: CO And Latin America

Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting Klwright69 (Thread starter):
What is CO planning for Latin America?



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
CO's lack of growth in South America has a lot to do with the airline's shortage of longhaul aircraft

I think it's a combination of too few aircraft and too much focus on Newark. LatAm is the most profitable segment of CAL's operations, and they make more money than any other US airline flying south, but they haven't kept up with Delta in terms of providing lift out of Houston and Newark. If they're not careful, the goose that lays the golden eggs is going to starve to death.
 
CO787EWR
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:10 am

RE: CO And Latin America

Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:32 am

Quoting Toxtethogrady (Reply 40):

I always "heard" EWR-Asia were huge hits for CO in terms of profit am I wrong?
If South America is their most profitable system it would be imperative for them to expand and secure their market.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24596
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: CO And Latin America

Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:00 am

Quoting CO787EWR (Reply 41):
If South America is their most profitable system it would be imperative for them to expand and secure their market.

No, it wouldn't. It's their most profitable system because of smart growth. Just because you do well in a region doesn't mean you just keep on expanding. CO, unlike Delta, carefully selects where to fly in the region, and obviously does a smart job at it.
a.