LASoctoberB6
Posts: 1936
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:23 pm

When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:14 am

When is UA going to rid themselves of their failed attempt for an "airline within an airline" (with the same op. certificate)? WN and B6 seem to be unaffected by Ted's presence. Another question, why did UA downgrade some of the more attractive cities from mainline to Ted service?
[NOT IN SERVICE] {WEStJet}
 
kingcavalier
Posts: 381
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:02 am

RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Thread starter):
WN and B6 seem to be unaffected by Ted's presence

Add F9 and every other airline. Ted made and makes no sense. It's just a matter of time before Ted goes the way of Song.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
 
LASoctoberB6
Posts: 1936
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:23 pm

RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:45 am

Quoting KingCavalier (Reply 1):
the way of Song.

IMO, Song made a big difference somewhere and was actually (I think) profitable... Ted wasn't buffed up enough to really make a threatening stance to anybody..

[Edited 2007-10-27 22:56:40]
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Boston92
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:48 am

Song made sense...TED is just a...well, I really don't know what the hell TED is. This coming from a big United fan.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
zTagged
Posts: 354
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:38 am

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 3):
Song made sense

Concur. DL had the right idea with Song.

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 3):
TED is just a...well, I really don't know what the hell TED is.

The bastard child of UA. No better way to say it, honestly. I would say it's UA's approach to an express, but that's not correct. I could say it's a mish-mash of garbage, and I'd probably be closer to the right answer.  crazy   duck 
Something awful.
 
dl767captain
Posts: 1206
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:45 am

I don't think we can compare song and ted, song had TV's for every seat, something new for that time, and eventually became DL's transcontinental 757 model which is rolling over the rest of their domestic fleet eventually. I think song was more of a test to see if it would work, and since it did DL merged song back into DL. Ted is more going against south west, or jetblue but with out TVs, its almost like they needed more coach capacity on these routes but didn't want to put bigger planes on those routes, so they just did an all coach A320 to make up for it. I don't really know what UA wanted Ted to become, its almost impossible to compete with WN unless you can compete with their prices, no one wants to pay alot and get nothing, at WN you pay a little and get a little, it makes sense, Ted does not.
 
mpdpilot
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting ZTagged (Reply 4):
The bastard child of UA. No better way to say it, honestly. I would say it's UA's approach to an express, but that's not correct. I could say it's a mish-mash of garbage, and I'd probably be closer to the right answer.

Can you explain please. I live in PHX and when I fly United it is always TED. I just don't know what your talking about. I have flown NW, DL, CO, AA, WN, and UA home on a four to five time a year basis. TED is really my favorite, I get to see a movie I can't say I have ever been on CO or DL for longer than 1hr 30min so maybe I am missing something. I will also say that being 6'3" tall the Explus is awesome, and reasonably priced. I just want to understand why TED is so bad I really like it, it's comfortable and cheap. It is always the same price as WN and AA on the PHX-CHI route, and so I always choose TED because it is better than both of those.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
BrianDromey
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:51 am

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 10):
Can you explain please.

It does not make sense as an LCC, because it is waaaaaaay too close to UA to have anything other than the most minute of cost advantages. Ted is neither one thing or the other. On one hand UA is putting F in RJs (stupid, stupi, stupid, 50 seaters are insane/70s just about make sense) and taking F out of mainline to create this "Ted" which still has all the costs associated with a legacy carrier but the fares of WN, etc, while at the same time minline is cutting back on 'frills' too.

UA is a bit lost for direction as far as I can see, Ted is just the personification of all that is wrong with UA, no vision, copycat, poorly impremented ideas. Why bother?

Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
 
hiflyer
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:35 pm

TED has failed...TED is lost....TED does not work. ...see a lot of professional judgements here.

Can someone show me the books on TED?

(Oh...you can't as TED's RASM/CASM is not broken out  Wink )

UAL has slashed jobs, routes, cities and continues to do so not even if it is unprofitable but if they can make more money with the aircraft somewhere else...and still does not order new aircraft and stay's extremely conservative on expenses.

But they kept TED....

You don't think that perhaps they see a financial picture we don't? That perhaps putting 20+ more seats on an aircraft that goes into generally low fare leisure markets makes sense instead of having F? That perhaps just popping half a galley and a closet and changing seats on a few rows for low cost made more money than rewiring and adding seat tv?

 dollarsign   dollarsign   dollarsign 

IMHO if oil had stayed below 50 perhaps TED would be gone...but at 90? Everything is getting rethunk at 90 by everyone....from you at the pump filling that F250 to the folks with huge computer programs and a list of degrees a mile long.

(And yes there were internal rumors that TED was going a few months back....and now there are rumors that 6 more ac are being added to the fleet.....rumors rumors rumors.)  Smile
 
AirframeAS
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:45 pm

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 6):
Explus is awesome

The only positive thing about E-Plus is the additional leg room and sitting up front. The service is, unfortunately, the same as regular coach. To me, its definately NOT worth the upgrade.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
ordflier
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:24 pm

Keep in mind, Economy Plus is saved for United's Elite Travellers on a first come / first serve basis. That extra space is another reason many travellers who have United as an option for their travels choose them.
ORDflier
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:14 pm

All of you that say Ted has failed...can you show us why? Because unless UA has lost market share in Ted markets, or is losing money on the operation (which, while nobody can really know, UA says is not the case), it would seem like Ted was and is a success. Ted wasn't designed to hurt F9, WN, B6, etc. It was designed to increase UA's market share in leisure, low fare markets. And I believe it has done that.
 
intermodal64
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:20 pm

In the '70's and early 80's many of the legacy carriers kept a subfleet of mainline aircraft in all-coach configuration for short-haul or high-density operations. Western and United are the two that particularly come to mind. (I vaguely remember some short DL DC-8's in an all-coach configuration also.) This seems like a more effective way to manage and control a brand rather than creating "sub-brands." The legacies are all fairly generic these days: blue dingy seats (even in first class), few amenities, erratic fares, tired employees, poor reliability, overcrowded facilities, and worn-down aircraft. Between UA, AA, and DL, I literally forget which airline I'm flying on from day to day.

The UA brand would not suffer one bit from all-coach operations in DEN-PHX or LAX-SFO, and this would be less confusing for passengers than a "Ted" or a "Song." The creation of "Ted" indicates to me that they are very insecure with their UA branding. They either think it is "too good" to associate with a high-density operation or that it is "not good enough" to attract value-oriented consumers. Day to day consumers of their product know the former is not the case.

A cynical pilot once told me that Ted is the END of United.
 
jacobin777
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:33 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 11):
All of you that say Ted has failed...can you show us why? Because unless UA has lost market share in Ted markets, or is losing money on the operation (which, while nobody can really know, UA says is not the case), it would seem like Ted was and is a success. Ted wasn't designed to hurt F9, WN, B6, etc. It was designed to increase UA's market share in leisure, low fare markets. And I believe it has done that.

.... checkmark ...if TED isn't doing as well as many here have claimed they probably would have shut it down by now..as its been a few years since TED has been operating...UA also recently released very good earnings with good profit margins....given the current size of TED now, it would have quite possibly affected their margins, etc.

Lets see what UA does with TED in the next year or so before we call it a "failure"...
"Up the Irons!"
 
luv2fly
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:36 pm

Quoting Intermodal64 (Reply 12):
The legacies are all fairly generic these days: blue dingy seats (even in first class), few amenities, erratic fares, tired employees, poor reliability, overcrowded facilities, and worn-down aircraft. Between UA, AA, and DL, I literally forget which airline I'm flying on from day to day.

The UA brand would not suffer one bit from all-coach operations in DEN-PHX or LAX-SFO, and this would be less confusing for passengers than a "Ted" or a "Song." The creation of "Ted" indicates to me that they are very insecure with their UA branding. They either think it is "too good" to associate with a high-density operation or that it is "not good enough" to attract value-oriented consumers. Day to day consumers of their product know the former is not the case.

A cynical pilot once told me that Ted is the END of United.

I think you have so far summed it up best and hit all the key points on the head.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
777fan
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:36 pm

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 3):
TED is just a...well, I really don't know what the hell TED is.

It's UA's way of cramming more seats (and generating more revenue) on high-demand leisure routes.

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 7):
UA is a bit lost for direction as far as I can see, Ted is just the personification of all that is wrong with UA, no vision, copycat, poorly impremented ideas.

UA absolutely has direction - they've consolidated routes, focused on its strengths (international), trimmed costs, and tweaked its product (i.e. Ted) on some routes to compete with LCCs.

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 8):
You don't think that perhaps they see a financial picture we don't? That perhaps putting 20+ more seats on an aircraft that goes into generally low fare leisure markets makes sense instead of having F

Exactly. I would venture to guess (and maybe someone can confirm this for me) that most of the F flyers on the routes that Ted now occupies were P, PE or 1K members that used system or comp upgrades. Honestly, how many people really dropped $2,000 to fly F class between ORD and PHX or LAX-LAS?! The F seats probably weren't generating much revenue (if at all). That being the case, UA figured that it'd be more prudent to pull the seats out, throw in some additional Y or Y+ seats and sell them for less. Generating some revenue is better than generating none at all.

Look, I think I speak on behalf of many UA FFers when I say that I don't really "miss" a domestic F class seat on a 3 hour flight. Even if F seats were available on some of the Ted routes, I wouldn't be in any hurry to drop $1,000-2,000 8-15K miles, or 2-4 e-upgrades for a wider seat with the same IFE and basically the same food/bev service. E+ works just fine and, for the most part, it seems that UA's Ted subfleet generally feels more fresh than some of the 757s, or 73Xs in the fleet. Ted doesn't bother me one bit and, as has been postulated repeatedly in this thread, if it wasn't working for them, they'd have dumped it a while ago.


777fan
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
caljn
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:35 pm

IMO United ought to use TED as they did with the former United Express. The TED concept would work on the heavily traveled LAX - SFO where United uses 737, 320, and 757 and now must compete with Virgin America and Southwest. Other former United Express lanes ex LAX to LAS, DEN, and perhaps SEA is where TED should be utilized.

They must make up their mind. United Express was a good idea...quick turnaround on short hops.
Now we have ill defined TED.
 
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mariner
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:41 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 11):
Ted wasn't designed to hurt F9

Yes, Ted was. One of the primary stated objectives of Ted was to stop the erosion of market share to the LCC's, and particularly at DEN.

In that sense, at DEN, Ted provably failed.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
SpencerII
Posts: 259
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:41 pm

Quoting Intermodal64 (Reply 12):
A cynical pilot once told me that Ted is the END of United

I take it that is your mantra as well?

So how long will it take UNITED to end? Seems Ted has been going a while now.
 
WeAreUnited
Posts: 308
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:22 pm

Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 2):

IMO, Song made a big difference somewhere and was actually (I think) profitable

You think. Did Delta ever release separate SONG earnings? No! Most of the rumors on here was that it was NOT profitable but those are just rumors.

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 5):
Ted is more going against south west, or jetblue but with out TVs

TED was created to compete against Frontier in Denver.

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 7):
On one hand UA is putting F in RJs (stupid, stupi, stupid, 50 seaters are insane/70s just about make sense)

United does not have 50 seat RJ's with First Class.

Quoting Ordflier (Reply 10):
Economy Plus is saved for United's Elite Travellers on a first come / first serve basis. That extra space is another reason many travellers who have United as an option for their travels choose them.

WRONG!

Quoting Caljn (Reply 16):
IMO United ought to use TED as they did with the former United Express.



Quoting Caljn (Reply 16):
LAX - SFO



Quoting Caljn (Reply 16):
LAX to LAS, DEN, and perhaps SEA is where TED should be utilized.

With the routes you mentioned I was really confused at first. What you mean is the former 'UNITED SHUTTLE.' United Shuttle was formed to compete mostly with Southwest on the west coast (notably intra-California flights) where United was loosing market share.

Ted, as I and others have mentioned, was created mostly to compete against Frontier at Denver.

I can't remember when this was but I do remember hearing that United actually increased it's market share in TED markets where it competed with Frontier. Also, Frontier stopped serving ONT not long after Ted was introduced on that route.

Also, according to a higher up at United, TED is VERY profitable. In early 2004 if TED's earnings were reported seperately would be more profitable then B6 and F9.

I wish I had links or something to show you this info- but I don't.
 
multimark
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:25 pm

Quoting KingCavalier (Reply 1):



Quoting KingCavalier (Reply 1):
Add F9 and every other airline. Ted made and makes no sense. It's just a matter of time before Ted goes the way of Song.

And Zip and Tango from AC. The airline-within-an-airline fad seems to have died as each emerged from bankruptcy.
 
roseflyer
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:33 pm

Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 2):
IMO, Song made a big difference somewhere and was actually (I think) profitable... Ted wasn't buffed up enough to really make a threatening stance to anybody..



Quoting ZTagged (Reply 4):
Quoting Boston92 (Reply 3):
TED is just a...well, I really don't know what the hell TED is.

The bastard child of UA. No better way to say it, honestly. I would say it's UA's approach to an express, but that's not correct. I could say it's a mish-mash of garbage, and I'd probably be closer to the right answer.

From an economics standpoint the branding of Ted isn't really a big deal. They try to differentiate it some, but they weren't trying to be like Song and have a better product with TVs. Ted is a way to get rid of empty first class cabins and increase the number of seats in select markets on planes to lower the per passenger costs. UA didn't get much benefit from having a first class cabin to destinations like LAS since it is a tourist destination with fewer elite members paying for first class. The branding is an afterthought. Increasing capacity on the A320s was the goal and UA did that.

Quoting WeAreUnited (Reply 19):
Quoting Ordflier (Reply 10):
Economy Plus is saved for United's Elite Travellers on a first come / first serve basis. That extra space is another reason many travellers who have United as an option for their travels choose them.

WRONG!

Could you explain what is wrong? Economy plus is for elite members (premiers, premier executives, 1Ks, global service) and they are given access to it on a first come first serve basis at the time of the booking. If it doesn't fill up and seats are needed, then regular economy passengers will get access. Economy plus keeps loyal flyers loyal to UA since they get a more comfortable flight if they don't get upgraded. I don't know how that statement is wrong.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:01 pm

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 8):
Can someone show me the books on TED?

(Oh...you can't as TED's RASM/CASM is not broken out )

Exactly correct. LOTS of know-it-alls out there.

Nobody in this forum knows whether or not TED is making money for United.

That being said, I agree with the line of thinking that United has lost its way. Eliminating F seats from mainline aircraft while adding them to RJ's doesn't make sense to me. More specifically, I think it makes sense to add F to RJ's, but not to eliminate them from mainline.

United is a mess. I look for them to merge and purge within a year. The United brand will probably cease to exist and the company's management will be on the streets. Good riddance. They are an highly arrogant yet unprofessional lot who deserve to be eliminated from the industry. IMHO. One can only hope.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
USAirALB
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:05 pm

Ted IS NOT a failure. It was designed to just bring in extra revenue and be more convientent for vacation travelers. Ted was started in the same year as song and is still running song isnt.

Fly Ted!
E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/77W/319/320/321/333/343
 
mpdpilot
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:11 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 9):
The only positive thing about E-Plus is the additional leg room and sitting up front. The service is, unfortunately, the same as regular coach. To me, its definately NOT worth the upgrade.

Well I have never really noticed that great of an upgrade of service in first class so the fact that it is the same is really irrelavent. I will also add that being 6'3" tall that extra 5" is the difference between being comfortable and uncomfortable and since I don't typically have the money to by first class it makes perfect sense to me.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 21):
Could you explain what is wrong? Economy plus is for elite members (premiers, premier executives, 1Ks, global service) and they are given access to it on a first come first serve basis at the time of the booking. If it doesn't fill up and seats are needed, then regular economy passengers will get access. Economy plus keeps loyal flyers loyal to UA since they get a more comfortable flight if they don't get upgraded. I don't know how that statement is wrong.

It is wrong becasue it is not just for the elite members. As a non frequent flyer I can always upgrade to explus whenever I check in. it may be given to elite members but it is not just given to them when they want it. Thats where your wrong.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:16 pm

Quoting WeAreUnited (Reply 19):
With the routes you mentioned I was really confused at first. What you mean is the former 'UNITED SHUTTLE.' United Shuttle was formed to compete mostly with Southwest on the west coast (notably intra-California flights) where United was loosing market share.

Before Shuttle by United, there was the rather short-lived United Express on the west coast in the early 80's, IIRC (this was before the "Express" moniker was used for an airline's regional division).
International Homo of Mystery
 
zTagged
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:17 pm

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 23):
Ted was started in the same year as song and is still running song isnt.

Can you explain why UA had a better idea than DL? What did they do differently that made them a better "mini-LCC"? IMO Song had a better product to offer, they presented it well, marketing was good, and I'm sure other pax were satisfied. Ted, on the other hand, has very little marketing, and very little appeal compared to other "LCC"s of the same variety (WN, F9, B6, VX, SX etc). It lacks passenger amenities (Albeit so does WN, but they make up with aggressive marketing and an interesting product). I'm sure TED appeals to die-hard UA fans, and people who are unaware of other options. The prices are close to competitive, but their product just doesn't measure up.
Something awful.
 
HPAEAA
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:18 pm

Ted is like Explus.. just another product within the UA offerings...
Why do I fly???
 
USAirALB
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:26 pm

[quote=ZTagged,reply=26][Can you explain why UA had a better idea than DL?]

I believe Ted has the right aircraft. Song just didn't work out with the B752. Some routes couldn't be profitable with it. For example, on the BDL-LAX route the 757 run was never at full capacity, now with the 738 its doin fine. The A320 fits Ted perfectly. Its perfect for short capacity runs like LAX-LAS and for long haul like IAD-LAS. Yet its small enough so routes can stay alive.
E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/77W/319/320/321/333/343
 
ckfred
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:26 pm

I have heard stories that UA has lost customers who live in TED-only cities or travel frequently to TED-only cities, because there are no upgrade opportunities.

What is probelematic is that often, TED planes are substituted on non-TED flights. My wife was supposed to get upgraded both ways on ORD-PIT-ORD, but didn't get the upgrade, because the A319s scheduled for both legs were substituted with TED A320s.

There were several passengers on both flights that were more than a tad upset that they weren't getting upgrades.
 
A388
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:08 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
.... ...if TED isn't doing as well as many here have claimed they probably would have shut it down by now..as its been a few years since TED has been operating...UA also recently released very good earnings with good profit margins....given the current size of TED now, it would have quite possibly affected their margins, etc.

Hey Jacob, how are you doing? I think your KL 777 photo taken in SFO is a bit more appropriate in this discussion as UA also has the 777. LOL Big grin

A388
 
LASoctoberB6
Posts: 1936
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:21 pm

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 28):
Its perfect for short capacity runs like LAX-LAS and for long haul like IAD-LAS. Yet its small enough so routes can stay alive.

Oh how I miss those white-topped 733s...  crying 

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 29):

There were several passengers on both flights that were more than a tad upset that they weren't getting upgrades.

They got their money back, right?
[NOT IN SERVICE] {WEStJet}
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 1932
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:32 pm

Quoting WeAreUnited (Reply 19):
United does not have 50 seat RJ's with First Class.

Fact still remains, 50 seat RJ's dont make sense, at least from figures I have seen.

I dont know what TED is all about, it should make sense, but I dont think they need the complexity of a 'lesiure' brand. Lets face it, UA is not SQ.

Brian,.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
 
atlaaron
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:47 pm

While I agree that TED has not provided anything spectacular for me when I have flown them, I fail to see the sense in this thread. What makes anyone on here think they know more about TED's success/finances than UAL themselves?

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 7):
UA is a bit lost for direction as far as I can see, Ted is just the personification of all that is wrong with UA, no vision, copycat, poorly impremented ideas. Why bother?

I think the financials posted by UAL recently may proove you wrong regarding UA's loss of direction, no vision, etc.
 
Boston92
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:57 pm

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 28):
on the BDL-LAX route the 757 run was never at full capacity

I was on that route 3 times, all were overbooked.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
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Stitch
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:59 pm

Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Thread starter):
When is UA going to rid themselves of their failed attempt for an "airline within an airline"?

Not as long as it continues to benefit them keeping it, which seems to be the case.

Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Thread starter):
Another question, why did UA downgrade some of the more attractive cities from mainline to Ted service?

Because those cities had very low paid First Class passenger traffic (under 5% annually).

UA elites hate TED because they can't get free upgrades to First Class.

I hate TED because I can't buy a First Class seat.

I think TED would have been better if it had 144 Y seats and four F seats instead of 156 Y seats. That way, you only needed three FAs instead of four. And you just do not release those four seats to any upgrader, regardless of status (including Global Services), until 30 minutes before departure. That way, folks like me who pay for First Class can get a seat and if there are less then four of us, the highest status (and highest revenue within that status) get what's left.

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 32):
Fact still remains, 50 seat RJ's dont make sense, at least from figures I have seen.

They don't make sense now with fuel at $100 a barrel and relentless traffic consolidation on fewer and few flights which drives up load factors. But when fuel was a third of that and 737s and A320s were consistently going out at half-empty or worse, they offered compelling benefits.
 
ForeverUnited
Posts: 84
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:22 pm

Sometimes the decisions that face upper management aren't quite as cut and dried as they seem to be. Regardless of whether Ted is making money, or is a good idea, there is likely a good reason United hasn't given it the boot yet. Even if Ted is losing money or breaking even, it may be more expensive to discontinue the product than to continue it. (Consider the cost of repainting/reconfiguring aicraft back into mainline, chucking all the Ted-branded print items, changing all the marketing and sales copy to disinclude Ted). Dumping Ted would be a pain in the ass, and if it's going to be a pain in the ass, it has to be a worthwhile pain in the ass.

Ted's branding gives United a unique opportunity to test items that can later be applied across the mainline fleet. Remember the United Snackbox was originally launched on Ted. The off-brand allows United to test new inflight products without creating expectations or disappointments on behalf of the parent brand.

It's also my personal theory that it is the flyer that determines the value of an carrier's premium cabin. I'd much rather see premium cabins disappear in markets where they aren't pulling their weight revenue wise than see a fleet-wide cost reduction based on numbers skewed by poor performance in leisure markets. Alaska Airlines is notorious for their poor revenue performance in First Class, and even considered removing their F altogether. They realized it was a major selling point to customer loyalty for their large number of rabid MVP/Golds. The compromise was a deterioration of the product to where it's almost just a seat upgrade over Economy. (Catering differs very very little, if at all, if present).

I'd much rather see UA maintain quality premium cabins in markets with demand for them rather than lowering the bar systemwide. UA's brand is admittedly fragile at this point, so it makes perfect sense for management to be cautious with changes to the mainline brand, instead trying new initiatives at P.S. or Ted before universal implementation.

FUA
 
frontierflyer
Posts: 97
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:35 pm

Ted is a joke and United is a bigger joke. I had the misfortune of flying den-bos a few weeks ago on and old repainted 757, the seats at fenway park fee more comfy and they are pretty bad, bitchy flight attendants, flickering tv monitors, snack box my dog would not eat. United needs to overhaul their entire product across the line not just on low yield leisure routes. Ted is a band-aid on a bullet wound. It seems like more CRJ's are doing most of the flying, 50 seaters to make matters worse. AA is not much better. Continental is the only with legacy nice fresh planes, good service. United mainline jets look like they just came back from war.
 
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Stitch
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:37 pm

Quoting ForeverUnited (Reply 36):
Alaska Airlines is notorious for their poor revenue performance in First Class, and even considered removing their F altogether. They realized it was a major selling point to customer loyalty for their large number of rabid MVP/Golds. The compromise was a deterioration of the product to where it's almost just a seat upgrade over Economy.

Actually, I fly AS a great deal in First Class, because their fully-refundable F fares are as cheap as UA's restricted F fares. And yet AS is still getting around 30 cents a mile from me, so their RASM cannot be hurting that bad.

AS has also recently improved their F service, especially on long-haul runs. And I still get a warm breakfast, lunch, and dinner in AS F up and down the West Coast on AS where it is usually a cold meal on UA (especially on Shuttle 737s which do not have ovens).

AS cabin crew are generally as friendly as UA's (  thumbsup  ) and the AS 737NGs are as nice as UA's A319s and A320s. The AS MD-8x and 734s are nothing to write home about, but then neither are UA's 733s and 735s and, again, those AS planes all have ovens and fridges where many of those UA planes do not.

Also, while AS does offer free upgrades on any fare without the need for certs and miles (as UA requires), AS does require mid-level fares for mileage upgrades at any time and to secure a free upgrade at time of booking. This is helping AS premium cabin revenues.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:43 pm

We can hate on Ted all we want, but the key question is simple: if Ted were failing, why would UA keep it around? The costs of transitioning it back to mainline would be rather low, certainly not enough to justify continual bleeding of red ink.

Like most carriers, UA has (necessarily) moved past the point of grandstanding for the sake of grandstanding.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
LASoctoberB6
Posts: 1936
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:23 pm

RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting ForeverUnited (Reply 36):
there is likely a good reason United hasn't given it the boot yet.

I, and a very high number of others here, would love to know that oh so special reason as of to why TED ain't gone yet.  Smile I wish someone knew..
[NOT IN SERVICE] {WEStJet}
 
777fan
Posts: 2256
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:09 pm

RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:53 pm

Quoting ForeverUnited (Reply 36):
Ted's branding gives United a unique opportunity to test items that can later be applied across the mainline fleet. Remember the United Snackbox was originally launched on Ted. The off-brand allows United to test new inflight products without creating expectations or disappointments on behalf of the parent brand.

Very good point.  checkmark 

Quoting Frontierflyer (Reply 37):
Ted is a joke and United is a bigger joke. I

It's good to see that your statement is based on fact and not hyperbole.  sarcastic 


777fan
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
Super80DFW
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:53 pm

Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Thread starter):
Another question, why did UA downgrade some of the more attractive cities from mainline to Ted service?

Well, I thought Ted was an airline that goes to vacation destinations.
"Things change, friends leave, life doesn't stop for anybody." -- EAT'EM UP EAT'EM UP KSU!!
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 30):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
.... ...if TED isn't doing as well as many here have claimed they probably would have shut it down by now..as its been a few years since TED has been operating...UA also recently released very good earnings with good profit margins....given the current size of TED now, it would have quite possibly affected their margins, etc.

Hey Jacob, how are you doing? I think your KL 777 photo taken in SFO is a bit more appropriate in this discussion as UA also has the 777. LOL  biggrin 
A388

Hey A388.. Smile

.......smart alec comments of yours.. Wink

..no KL777's or UA777's however this photo is relevant to the discussions..LOL... bigthumbsup 



Quoting Stitch (Reply 38):
734s are nothing to write home about

...AS's B736's are really good too... Smile

Quoting Stitch (Reply 35):
I think TED would have been better if it had 144 Y seats and four F seats instead of 156 Y seats. That way, you only needed three FAs instead of four.

...interesting...I wonder if UA had thought about this.... scratchchin 
"Up the Irons!"
 
zTagged
Posts: 354
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RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 28):
I believe Ted has the right aircraft. Song just didn't work out with the B752. Some routes couldn't be profitable with it.

Even with load factors not at prime, they still offered a better product.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 28):
he A320 fits Ted perfectly. Its perfect for short capacity runs like LAX-LAS and for long haul like IAD-LAS. Yet its small enough so routes can stay alive.

That's the big selling point with the 737NG (736-739) and the A3xx (A318-A321). It can do longhaul, and it can be a shorthaul high density. Alas, having better performance isn't always going to win customers. Having a worth-while product is.

 stirthepot   duck 
Something awful.
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:53 am

The service on Ted is a notch below regular mainline UA.

Just one drink service (and no cans given) regardless of the length of the flight. I've done DEN-MSY and LAX-MSY on Ted and that's all we got. And I had a friend do IAD-LAS and report the same thing.
 
DC8FanJet
Posts: 167
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:25 am

RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:01 am

The blind United bashing that goes on at times on this site is unreal. Too many people that have about
0.5% fact and the remainder bull***.

Ted is United's "fun" side. United would not have been able to do the marketing that was done for Ted. No one
would have accepted it or found it reasonable from staid old United Airlines,Inc., but from an airline named "Ted",
why not?

The extra seats, in markets that have very little full fare revenue base, make the difference between profit and loss,
pure and simple.

I think that United has made it pretty clear they aren't going to remain in any market that isn't making money.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22948
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:03 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 43):
...AS's B736's are really good too...  Smile

AS flies the 737-400, 737-700, 737-800 and 737-900.  Wink
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15218
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:13 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 29):
I have heard stories that UA has lost customers who live in TED-only cities or travel frequently to TED-only cities, because there are no upgrade opportunities.

For a while (and maybe still) places like TUS had more daily first class seats on UA than PHX, which had zero. 'Cuz there must not be any frequent flyers in PHX Silly

Quoting DC8FanJet (Reply 46):
Ted is United's "fun" side.

I don't think anyone that has flown Ted would describe any part of it as "fun". If you want "fun" go for the real thing at Frontier. You'll even have TV, friendly crews, and probably a whole can of soda. Yeah sure What part of Ted is "fun"?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
klkla
Posts: 625
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:51 am

RE: When Will TED Disappear?

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:13 am

Back to the original question the answer is 'NOT SOON ENOUGH!' As a 1K I can say I have definitely chosen to fly competitors on some occasions because of the lack of first class.

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