MAH4546
Topic Author
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DL Ending JFK-MHT

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:52 pm

a.
 
Flighty
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:14 pm

MHT ain't the international feeder city they hoped.

Instead, MHT-LGA is mostly local traffic.... JFK would suffer versus that.
 
Rcardinale
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:22 pm

What type of planes were used on this route i'm assuming props. With this drop in service Delta still has a somewhat large presence in MHT
 
BatonOps
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:35 pm

Quoting Rcardinale (Reply 2):
What type of planes were used on this route i'm assuming props.

No props on that route. One flight was a CRJ the other was an ERJ.
 
jawake
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:50 pm

I wonder if this has anything to do with the FAA putting pressure on the airlines to reduce flights in and out of JFK. I wonder if we will begin to see other announcements of cuts out of JFK by DL.

I am sure it was not the only reason, but a factor. Too bad for MHT.
 
1MillionFlyer
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:59 pm

That's too bad, MHT deserves a JFK link at least seasonally.

Lake Winnepessakee (sp?) is a great summer vacation spot.
Golf Foxtrot you are cleared for departure
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:25 pm

DL is also axing TRI-MCO, JFK-PBI and MIA-LGA. DL will add an additional frequency on LGA-PBI and MIA-JFK.
 
Rcardinale
Posts: 113
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:47 pm

WOW JFK-PBI is a large market I wonder how big of a part B6 played in this decision
 
worldtraveler
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:51 pm

JFKPBI is not near as lucrative as LGAPBI. There isn't a whole lot of international flow traffic to PBI, esp. that cannot be duplicated over MCO. I suspect DL is more interested in having two strong markets than having a four elatively weak markets. I'm actually pleased to see that DL has made JFKMIA work.. that's a pretty significant accomplishment against AA.
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:58 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 8):
I'm actually pleased to see that DL has made JFKMIA work.. that's a pretty significant accomplishment against AA.

They carry a lot of through traffic to Europe. Berlin, Kiev, and Istanbul are especially popular connecting destinations. The new JFK flight is also timed to connect to/from Europe like the current one. They only leave about 2 hours apart, IIRC.
a.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:01 pm

Agree... but neither flight could work if they didn't carry a fair amount of Latin traffic. Either you or I can look it up from DOT data but I think there are many months in the winter when the flight exists based on local traffic.
 
srbmod
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:03 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 6):
DL is also axing TRI-MCO

I'm actually surprised they even offered this route. I guess this was to compete against G4 and their SFB-TRI service?
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:08 pm

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 11):
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 6):
DL is also axing TRI-MCO

I'm actually surprised they even offered this route. I guess this was to compete against G4 and their SFB-TRI service?

IIRC, they started TRI-MCO before Allegiant was ever on TRI-SFB.
a.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:10 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
The new JFK flight is also timed to connect to/from Europe like the current one. They only leave about 2 hours apart, IIRC.

Exactly. The MIA-JFK flights are set-up to cater to mostly connecting traffic....minimal O+D. The O+D route was MIA-LGA where DL simply couldn't compete with AA.
 
atlaaron
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:36 pm

Question about when a route is cancelled like this. Say I was holding a ticket to fly MHT-JFK in the future and now that the route is cancelled would DL give me a refund (on a non-rerfundable ticket)? Or would they just now make me connect to get to JFK?
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:40 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 13):
The O+D route was MIA-LGA where DL simply couldn't compete with AA.

If they had ever bothered to put in a third daily, I bet they could have done better, though. MIA-LGA is a business market, and not having a morning departure from Miami killed it from day one. Too bad it's back to the AA monopoly. At least a third airline will be joining MIA-JFK this spring...
a.
 
COERJ145
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:44 pm

Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 14):
Question about when a route is cancelled like this. Say I was holding a ticket to fly MHT-JFK in the future and now that the route is cancelled would DL give me a refund (on a non-rerfundable ticket)? Or would they just now make me connect to get to JFK?

They'd probably offer a refund or offer a different flight for no charge(like BOS or PVD-JFK).
 
Boston92
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:00 pm

I was booked LAX-JFK-MHT, was changed to LAX-CVG-MHT.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
Cubsrule
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:04 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
IIRC, they started TRI-MCO before Allegiant was ever on TRI-SFB.

I think the route started in late 2004 (maybe early 05) as a response to DH, actually.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
threeifbyair
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:07 pm

JFK-MHT surely suffered from BOS siphoning away many potential international connections. If the passengers were mostly connecting internationally, I doubt the yields were very good for a 199mi flight on a CRJ or ERJ. Also, does anyone know the on-time performance?

Losing JFK-MHT does take away a single-connection routing from the West Coast, but there are still quite a few others.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
At least a third airline will be joining MIA-JFK this spring...

Virgin America? JetBlue?  Wink

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
MIA-LGA is a business market, and not having a morning departure from Miami killed it from day one.

It seems odd that DL didn't try adding that morning flight from MIA. I guess US isn't interested in challenging AA either.
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 18):
I think the route started in late 2004 (maybe early 05) as a response to DH, actually.

DH never flew to Tri-Cities, but Delta did start MCO-TYS, which still operates, in response to DH.
a.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 20):
DH never flew to Tri-Cities,

Correct, though DH did fly to TYS, and I believe flew TYS-MCO (perhaps you remember...).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:12 am

I don't know exactly when DL started TRI-MCO, but I know it was before G4 came in. It was during the time that DL was flinging RJ's from MCO to practically every city they could and seeing what would stick. TRI actually held on for a while, but I think the arrival of G4 dealt it the final blow.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
If they had ever bothered to put in a third daily, I bet they could have done better, though.

You're probably right, but I don't think DL felt it was worth fighting for and using valuable LGA slots.
 
jacobin777
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 8):
I'm actually pleased to see that DL has made JFKMIA work.. that's a pretty significant accomplishment against AA.

..given that AA runs 4x/daily A300's and 1 B763 I'm not so sure if AA is too concerned about DL's current 1 daily MadDog flight....
"Up the Irons!"
 
747fan
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting BatonOps (Reply 3):
No props on that route. One flight was a CRJ the other was an ERJ.

Actually, I believe it was turboprop flight (Dash 8's) until Freedom quit flying them into JFK in August, correct me if I'm wrong.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
They carry a lot of through traffic to Europe. Berlin, Kiev, and Istanbul are especially popular connecting destinations. The new JFK flight is also timed to connect to/from Europe like the current one. They only leave about 2 hours apart, IIRC.

I wonder how TXL, KBP, IST, and some other secondary destinations (namely BUD, OTP, VCE, and PSA)are fairing out of JFK? Does anyone if these have been successful flights for DL so far? I know BUD, KPB, and IST also have competition from their national flag carriers on those routes (as well as TXL with CO), so I'm curious on how these routes perform if anyone has any knowledge about them. If these routes have been successful, it wouldn't hurt DL to try JFK-Zagreb, Warsaw, or VIE (if they have enough 767's after their Africa expansion).
I did find the JFK-PBI flight peculiar, as DL already flew into LGA from PBI( not to mention CO flies EWR-PBI) which is obviously the generally preferred NYC airport); obviously they were aiming this flight on int'l. connection pax., but still. It obviously didn't work.

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 19):
Losing JFK-MHT does take away a single-connection routing from the West Coast, but there are still quite a few others.

Yes, but MHT pax. can still fly through CVG or ATL to get to/from the West Coast. I know that the loss of JFK-MHT takes away potential pax. on transcons, but the healty NYC O&D market probably makes up for that.
 
RandyWaldron
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 5):
Lake Winnepessakee (sp?) is a great summer vacation spot.

The name of "The Lake" is Winnipesaukee - albeit a great vacation spot (I have a home there), most folks that travel vast distances to visit "The Lake" fly into BOS.

RW
"Flaps 20, gear down, landing checklist please..."
 
dartland
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:45 am

I just flew LAX-JFK-MHT on Wednesday. The JFK-MHT leg left the gate on-time (as soon as they found a tug), but took off about an hour later after waiting in line at JFK. Overall, though, fairly good considering the weather wasn't great. It was a CRJ50 and had about 2 empty seats.

Normally I wouldn't choose to stop in JFK, but the timing was by far the best -- and I got the great DL PTV's on the LAX-JFK leg! Makes flying transcon a whole lot better (especially compared to my WN flight west).

So -- I agree the JFK-MHT was great for connecting from the west coast, but agree also that CVG and ATL make decent stopping grounds also. And the Comair gates at JFK are a mess in the evening -- just hordes of people waiting around for their flights (half of of which are late). Skimming off a few of those certainly wouldn't hurt DL ops at JFK.
 
warszawa
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:34 am

Whats the deal with the Dash 8's? I dont see them on any route in Delta's network. What is (or was) the reason for their removal?
Flying a plane is no diff. from riding a bicycle. Its just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -'Airplane'
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:57 am

Quoting Warszawa (Reply 27):
What is (or was) the reason for their removal?

Lots of issues with them, starting with Mesa failing to get necessary certifications in time which forced them to temporarily use Beech-1900s into JFK, maintenance issues, delays, etc. In the end, it was just not worth it for DL to keep those hangar queens around.
 
lat41
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:02 am

Some of the International destinations from MHT that could be reached on DL via JFK were priced stupidly high versus BOS, connecting at the same Kennedy, so potential traffic was clipped short to begin with. The same problem exists further South at PVD. It's almost like DL rigs the game not to work even via ATL.
 
panamair
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:25 pm

Quoting Jawake (Reply 4):
I wonder if this has anything to do with the FAA putting pressure on the airlines to reduce flights in and out of JFK

JFK-MHT was already removed from the schedule (at least for flights post-Jan 2008) before the most recent FAA JFK scheduling meetings.
However, even with the PBI and MHT removals, there are other scheduled domestic feeder additions (though they haven't been too publicized yet - probaby pending the FAA JFK discussions) - including new domestic service from JFK to IAH, MSP, and CLT.

Quoting 747fan (Reply 24):
wonder how TXL, KBP, IST, and some other secondary destinations (namely BUD, OTP, VCE, and PSA)are fairing out of JFK? Does anyone if these have been successful flights for DL so far? I know BUD, KPB, and IST also have competition from their national flag carriers on those routes (as well as TXL with CO), so I'm curious on how these routes perform if anyone has any knowledge about them

All of them performed very well in the summer, even those that were new this year (OTP, PSA). During the fall, the Eastern Europe ones have been a mixed bag - with some (like KBP) performing very strongly, while a few (like OTP) have been weaker; there may be a reduction in the OTP frequency in the winter. KBP has been performing very nicely over the past year while IST and VCE have been in the network for a long time and continue to do well. TXL has actually been quite strong in Sept and October (August was quite weak, but that's the same as last year).
 
747fan
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:32 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 30):
All of them performed very well in the summer, even those that were new this year (OTP, PSA). During the fall, the Eastern Europe ones have been a mixed bag - with some (like KBP) performing very strongly, while a few (like OTP) have been weaker; there may be a reduction in the OTP frequency in the winter. KBP has been performing very nicely over the past year while IST and VCE have been in the network for a long time and continue to do well. TXL has actually been quite strong in Sept and October (August was quite weak, but that's the same as last year).

Thanks for that info. Glad to see that DL is doing well on these routes (at least in the summer), especially the new JFK-OTP and JFK-PSABig grin I wonder if this is having an effect on the foreign flag carriers that fly these routes (Aerosvit, Turkish and Malev), as I'm curious to whether these routes can support 2 carriers. Actually, I did hear something on here recently that mentioned DL may eventually downgrade JFK-TXL to a 757, I don't know if it meant year-round or just in the winter.
 
B752OS
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:34 pm

Quoting Lat41 (Reply 29):
Some of the International destinations from MHT that could be reached on DL via JFK were priced stupidly high versus BOS, connecting at the same Kennedy, so potential traffic was clipped short to begin with. The same problem exists further South at PVD. It's almost like DL rigs the game not to work even via ATL.

As Panamir posted, DL is adding more domestic service out of JFK in light of the cancelations. Ever think maybe with JFK getting slot restricted, MHT was cut in order to give slots to larger service markets? I highly doubt that MHT-JFK was seeing a high number of international connection pax in relation to those just going to NYC or somewhere else in the U.S.
 
Flighty
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:42 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 30):
JFK to IAH, MSP, and CLT.

!! I had not heard about those. Those are all big news.
 
dbo861
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:42 pm

Quoting Dartland (Reply 26):
I just flew LAX-JFK-MHT on Wednesday. The JFK-MHT leg left the gate on-time (as soon as they found a tug), but took off about an hour later after waiting in line at JFK. Overall, though, fairly good considering the weather wasn't great. It was a CRJ50 and had about 2 empty seats.

Was this Wednesday 10/24? I was the first officer working this flight.
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:14 pm

MHT is too close t oBOS and BOS has excellent international connections..would you rather drive down to BOS, or connect via JFK and deal with all that hassle???? I guess people in MHT said the former.
 
B752OS
Posts: 613
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:29 pm

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 35):
MHT is too close t oBOS and BOS has excellent international connections..would you rather drive down to BOS, or connect via JFK and deal with all that hassle???? I guess people in MHT said the former.

It makes more sense to fly out of BOS to Europe than it does to go MHT-JFK-Europe for a person who lives close to MHT, at least in my opinion. I am sure several airports in the country see people drive to airports in the region that offer non-stop service, such as MKE losing people to ORD, BDL losing people to both BOS and JFK, SAN losing people to LAX, etc.
 
panamair
Posts: 3767
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:33 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 33):
Quoting Panamair (Reply 30):
JFK to IAH, MSP, and CLT.

!! I had not heard about those. Those are all big news.

It was slipped in in the announcement about Middle East/Africa expansion out of JFK:

http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=10861

"....With the summer 2008 schedule, more than 85 percent of all U.S. airline customers will have access to Delta’s extensive network of destinations in Europe, Africa and the Middle East via JFK, including new service to Charlotte, Houston and Minneapolis/St. Paul....."
 
airbazar
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:27 pm

US/UA have the international market cornered at MHT and both WN and US seem to have the domestic market. You can get really competitive fares to Europe out of MHT, via PHL/ORD. Of all the times i have searched for flights out of MHT, DL has never come up as a viable option so if all they're doing is go after the O&D traffic, they're better off sticking to LGA only.
 
lat41
Posts: 461
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:23 pm

RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:43 pm

In their newly loaded schedule it appears to the South at PVD, there will be just 2 RJs. One for the morning Int'l bank and one for the evening to serve the intended purpose. So that freed up some additional slots as well.
 
USPIT10L
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:02 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 30):
However, even with the PBI and MHT removals, there are other scheduled domestic feeder additions (though they haven't been too publicized yet - probaby pending the FAA JFK discussions) - including new domestic service from JFK to IAH, MSP, and CLT.

Does DL still fly CLTLGA? I remember the route was started up a few years ago, wasn't sure if it was still around. Thanks in advance.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
RL757PVD
Posts: 2539
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 1999 2:47 am

RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:03 pm

Quoting Lat41 (Reply 39):
In their newly loaded schedule it appears to the South at PVD, there will be just 2 RJs. One for the morning Int'l bank and one for the evening to serve the intended purpose. So that freed up some additional slots as well.

Well two is the minimum for JFK becuase the 6am departure uses the aircraft that came in from the INTL bank the night before, 1x JFK cant serve both the arrival and departure banks at JFK unless its tied into another city (ATL-PVD-JFK) etc.

PVD-JFK-INTL needs to leave PVD 1430-1500
INTL-JFK-PVD needs to leave JFK 1800-1900

The Rhode Island area has a few companies that do some INTL business, so perhaps thats the reason why they have been able to hang onto their JFK flights which obviously have a higher CASM than MHT due to the shorter stage length. Esp since MHT-JFK has way more potential for O&D than PVD does, just that MHT is probaly 90% leisure or smaller (price sensitive) business travelers.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
panamair
Posts: 3767
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:16 pm

Quoting Lat41 (Reply 39):
In their newly loaded schedule it appears to the South at PVD, there will be just 2 RJs. One for the morning Int'l bank and one for the evening to serve the intended purpose. So that freed up some additional slots as well.

I don't know which days you're checking but PVD-JFK still has 3x RJs on most days except Saturday.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 40):
Does DL still fly CLTLGA?

Yes, up to 4x daily on weekdays and 2x daily on Sat/Sun
 
Cubsrule
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:24 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 42):

Yes, up to 4x daily on weekdays and 2x daily on Sat/Sun

Interestingly, though, CLT-JFK, which was started at around the same time, did not succeed. I wonder why DL thinks it will be different this time.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
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RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:42 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 43):
Interestingly, though, CLT-JFK, which was started at around the same time, did not succeed. I wonder why DL thinks it will be different this time.

Because their first try was with a one-class CRJ. This time it will be with a 2-class CR9, which will make the flight more attractive. The flight will also connect to DL's int'l flights, can't remember if that was also the case in the previous attempt.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11517
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:57 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 44):
The flight will also connect to DL's int'l flights, can't remember if that was also the case in the previous attempt.

It was. Do you really think the CR9 will make that much difference? The problem in CLT is that DL needs to target the customers going to secondary destinations who do not have a lot of other one-stop options; Charlotte customers can fly just about anyone they want to CDG one-stop, but they have fewer choices to, say, KBP. However, at CLT, customers can easily connect to LH at MUC or FRA, who flies to just about all (maybe all) of the secondary destinations served ex-JFK by DL. I'd take a connection at FRA or MUC over the JFK mess any day, I think.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
panamair
Posts: 3767
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:58 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 44):
This time it will be with a 2-class CR9,

Actually, CLT-JFK is showing as a regular CRJ. Both the IAH and MSP flights though will be CR9s with First class cabins.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 43):
Interestingly, though, CLT-JFK, which was started at around the same time, did not succeed. I wonder why DL thinks it will be different this time.

I have no idea why but maybe they think there is better connectivity this time with additional international routes (and unique destinations).

IAH, CLT, and MSP were essentially the remaining largest domestic feeder markets with no direct feed to DL's international system at JFK...
 
panamair
Posts: 3767
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:01 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 45):
However, at CLT, customers can easily connect to LH at MUC or FRA, who flies to just about all (maybe all) of the secondary destinations served ex-JFK by DL

But you can also say that about many other domestic feeder cities like DTW, PDX, DFW, ORD, etc., all of which have nonstops to at least one of the three largest Euro hubs (LHR, FRA, CDG) and yet DL still draws feeder traffic from these places through JFK...
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11517
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: DL Ending JFK-MHT

Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:20 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 47):
But you can also say that about many other domestic feeder cities like DTW, PDX, DFW, ORD, etc., all of which have nonstops to at least one of the three largest Euro hubs (LHR, FRA, CDG) and yet DL still draws feeder traffic from these places through JFK...

Quite true; DL's model seems to work in many places. I would suggest two problems in Charlotte.

1) Charlotte is smaller (in some cases quite a bit smaller) than most of the cities you cite.

2) Charlotte has much more service to NYC (per capita) than the cities you cite. This matters because DL cannot make the JFK flights work with 100% connecting traffic. There has to be some local traffic. That's not present to as large an extent at CLT, and the fact that B6 is now entrenched on the very route which DL proposes to fly will not help matters.

I'll ask again: if it failed last time, what has changed that will allow it to succeed this time?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more