PanHAM
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Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:31 pm

Just read a report in the online version of German daily WELT that Russia has revoked the over flying rights for LH Cargo.
In return, the German Government cancelled the landing rights for Aeroflot Cargo and Airbridge Cargo in Germany,mainly affected are services to HHN and FRA.

We all know that Russia ignores the ICAO treaties and the Chicago convention for decades,. blackmailing over flying charges for the use of Russian airspace which by far exceed the cost of navigation and air traffic charges. The first and the second freedom does not exist for Russia but they happily siphon freight out of our markets by applying the 6th freedom and pay nothing for that.

Glad that Germany acted quickly on this and I hope that they did not only cancel the landing rights but the overflying rights as well. Let them fly to LUX via the North Sea, better even, the EU should stand together and cancel the over flying rights for SU cargo all together until they find back to legality.

.
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JoeCanuck
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Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:38 pm

This is the kind of thing which will kill the Superjet's chances of making it in the west. Putin's working on creating the USSR MKII. Is any company really going to put their company at risk on the whims of this guy?
What the...?
 
PanHAM
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Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:51 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 1):
This is the kind of thing which will kill the Superjet's chances of making it in the west. Putin's working on creating the USSR MKII. Is any company really going to put their company at risk on the whims of this guy?

Indeed, fully agreed on all counts. The Superjet does not stand a chance outside the Empire. I do hope that Germany stands firm on this matter and is joint by the EU. They should revoke the rights of SU cargo to overfly all of the EU and not permit them to land in LUX either.

Shippers and forwarders should stay away from using them.

.
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LTU932
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Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:03 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Thread starter):
We all know that Russia ignores the ICAO treaties and the Chicago convention for decades,. blackmailing over flying charges for the use of Russian airspace which by far exceed the cost of navigation and air traffic charges. The first and the second freedom does not exist for Russia but they happily siphon freight out of our markets by applying the 6th freedom and pay nothing for that.

My question is: if Russia continues to ignore ICAO treaties, being a signatory country of those treaties, why haven't they been penalised for it? Why isn't the ICAO acting?

Quoting PanHAM (Thread starter):
Glad that Germany acted quickly on this and I hope that they did not only cancel the landing rights but the overflying rights as well. Let them fly to LUX via the North Sea, better even, the EU should stand together and cancel the over flying rights for SU cargo all together until they find back to legality.

 checkmark 

The way you're describing it, Russian airlines, SU in particular, should fly to a country they serve the way IF used to do when the DDR was still around. I fully agree with that. You revoke us overflight rights for whatever reason that can't be justified, and we'll revoke yours. We should show zero tolerance towards international blackmail like this. You should also be grateful that Angie is in power. For once in my life, I certainly am happy about that in light of this issue. Because, and that you can be assured of, this kind of thing wouldn't have happened if Schröder was still in power. I do not meant to make this thread anymore political than it already is, but think about it. Schröder would have done anything for Putin, making us look weak. Angie on the other hand has been much firmer with her handling of German-Russian relations, and this decision by the German Federal Government may be a result of that.

Also, two other things:

1. When the European Union bans an airline from operating and/or simply overflying European airspace, they do it for airworthiness reasons. Russia's move was for political reasons. Just to be clear on this, as there is the common misconception on EU airline bans being purely political.
2. In light of LCAG being "banned" from overflying Russia, could this force LH to re-start fuelstops in FAI?
 
jfk787nyc
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:44 pm

Russia & Kazakhstan have been at odds lately as Kazakhstan has shown lately that they will not be told what to do from Russia. Kazakhstan has shown that Russia is not the boss anymore. After all Kazakhstan is a very very very rich country.

Now, 85% of my business is done out of Kazakhstan and all my cargo business is conducted by Lufthansa they have a virtually monopoly on the aircargo business their. This is truely very dissappointing.
 
Burkhard
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:22 pm

So, grant them the rights for LUX and no overflight of Germany, Belgium and France . Putin knows how to calculate risks, he is much smarter and more intelligent as most Western "leaders" - this really is a test for Angie...
 
Gemuser
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:39 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Thread starter):
We all know that Russia ignores the ICAO treaties and the Chicago convention for decades,

??? This seems to be a dispute over commerical rights, which is the one thing NOT covered by the Chicargo convention or any of the ICAO treaties. Sure the "Freedoms of the Air" are defined, but there is NO requirement for any party to grant any of them to another party. Commerical disputes are outside ICAO terms of reference.

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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:18 pm

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Aither
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:46 pm

And another blow for Europe : it should not be Germany retaliating alone, it should be Europe.
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LTU932
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:05 pm

Quoting Aither (Reply 8):
And another blow for Europe : it should not be Germany retaliating alone, it should be Europe.

Since this issue in particular affected only Germany and Lufthansa Cargo AG in this case, I can understand why it's only Germany and the LBA who's retailiating. However I can still imagine that this will become a matter of discussion in the EU, unless bureaucracy and individual political interests get in the way and put this issue into the backburner.

Interesting to note is that the article states that the EU and Russia have come to an agreement in late 2006 regarding those airspace and security charges, which would reduce those fees starting 2013, and it would enable Russia to join the WTO. However, it's almost November 2007 and Russia still hasn't signed that treaty. What is Russia taking so long to sign this treaty and reduce those airspace/security fees starting 2013 as agreed with the EU? Or have they changed their mind about it?

[Edited 2007-10-30 15:06:39]
 
Jano
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:11 pm

Quoting Aither (Reply 8):
And another blow for Europe : it should not be Germany retaliating alone, it should be Europe.

Yes, the whole EU as ONE should retaliate right away.
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PlymSpotter
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:34 pm

Quoting Jano (Reply 10):
Quoting Aither (Reply 8):
And another blow for Europe : it should not be Germany retaliating alone, it should be Europe.

Yes, the whole EU as ONE should retaliate right away.

So, we react too swiftly and harshly across the board, piss Russia off, and they refuse rights to all flights crossing them. Have you any idea what that would do to the European travel market? It would cause absolute chaos, even if they only closed up for a couple of days. They by far have the upper hand in this situation, we really need to fly over them in order to reach most of the destinations in north and central Asia from Europe directly... let caution prevail, because in it's current buoyant fashion, Russia will not think twice about such a move.


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Aither
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:36 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 9):
Since this issue in particular affected only Germany and Lufthansa Cargo AG in this case, I can understand why it's only Germany and the LBA who's retailiating.

The EU-US open sky was signed because the EU wants to end bilaterals agreements (that's against the constitution and blabla bla...). Already we are losing a lot with that deal but the only advantage was to gradually get a truely unique European sky. One the main advantages of having such a common policy is precisely to give each memberstate more power when facing issues LH is currently experiencing with Russia.
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Aither
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:40 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 11):
So, we react too swiftly and harshly across the board, piss Russia off, and they refuse rights to all flights crossing them. Have you any idea what that would do to the European travel market? It would cause absolute chaos, even if they only closed up for a couple of days. They by far have the upper hand in this situation, we really need to fly over them in order to reach most of the destinations in north and central Asia from Europe directly... let caution prevail, because in it's current buoyant fashion, Russia will not think twice about such a move.

For sure we should not be harsh but just show our "muscles"... and anyway now we have Emirates  Wink
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:46 pm

Quoting Aither (Reply 13):
For sure we should not be harsh but just show our "muscles"... and anyway now we have Emirates

Might not seem harsh to us - but from Russia's perspective it may well do. Emirates certainly wouldn't mind though, if it did happen they would be rolling in passengers!


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ikramerica
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:06 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 11):
So, we react too swiftly and harshly across the board, piss Russia off, and they refuse rights to all flights crossing them. Have you any idea what that would do to the European travel market?

But don't you see this as an attempt by Russia to show that the EU is not really united, that when it comes to things that could really damage other nations economically, the EU will let one country hang in the wind?

Don't for a minute think Putin is just in a dispute with Germany. Russia are trying to test the mettle of the EU, who couldn't pass a constitution so they just created a treaty via edict instead. There are cracks in the EU, and this is a test of your strength as a unified economic body.

If the answer is to "let Germany fight their fight, we are not involved" then you are lost. Sometimes taking a stand means financial hardship. If you aren't willing to take a stand that involves sacrifice, than what value is your union?
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:09 pm

Quoting Aither (Reply 12):
The EU-US open sky was signed because the EU wants to end bilaterals agreements (that's against the constitution and blabla bla...). Already we are losing a lot with that deal but the only advantage was to gradually get a truely unique European sky.

True, but the keyword here in "gradually". There is still not a single European sky, as the countries still have their own regulatory authorities and the individual countries still dictate who can fly in and out of the country. The EU-US Openskies, and before that the EU Openskies treaty are a start to unify European airspace and get rid of bilaterals between an EU country and a non-EU country. However, there are still many bilateral agreements between single countries, and in the case of Russia vs EU, I don't think there is an EU wide bilateral that regulates flights between Russia and the EU, much less an Openskies treaty between the two (correct me if I'm wrong). Thus, it is still up to the individual country, in this case Germany, to refuse traffic/overflight rights to Russia.

If the EU would follow Germany suit, also to press the issue of the reduction of the airspace fees, then so be it, but for now, I don't think that SU or Airbridge Cargo, the airlines affected, have any airworthiness issues that would lead to the EU blacklisting them. Plus, there may be the individual objection of another country of such a measure, so, unlike the banning of an airline or a country from landing/overflying the EU, it may be difficult at this stage to extend such a ban to the entire EU. For now, this is probably best handled by Germany individually. If others want to follow us suit, so be it.
 
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:27 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
But don't you see this as an attempt by Russia to show that the EU is not really united, that when it comes to things that could really damage other nations economically, the EU will let one country hang in the wind?

Yes, it may well be, but myself, along with a very large proportion of the UK are against such a Constitution, treaty, call it what you like anyway, precisely because this is the kind of situation we don't want to be tied into, especially without a vote as to whether we want it or not...
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BlueSkys
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:34 am

I have not heard one person here say why Russia has revoked LH Cargo's right to overfly.... Why? What is their reason?
 
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 17):
Yes, it may well be, but myself, along with a very large proportion of the UK are against such a Constitution, treaty, call it what you like anyway, precisely because this is the kind of situation we don't want to be tied into, especially without a vote as to whether we want it or not...

Yes, that's exactly the reason why UK should leave the EU (and the EU markets and EU funds money) immediately. There is no free lunch. UK has it's free lunch for a pretty long time.
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iwok
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:15 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
My question is: if Russia continues to ignore ICAO treaties, being a signatory country of those treaties, why haven't they been penalised for it? Why isn't the ICAO acting?

Because Russia doesn't give a damn about any of these treaties.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 5):
Putin knows how to calculate risks, he is much smarter and more intelligent as most Western "leaders" - this really is a test for Angie..

Very well said. He is muscle flex mode now, but I think all this will backfire and there will be a missle shield in Europe because of these rough actions by the Kremlin.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 9):
unless bureaucracy and individual political interests get in the way and put this issue into the backburner

Which unfortunately is what will happen. I have a hard time seeing the EU react in a quick and decisive manner on this issue.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
But don't you see this as an attempt by Russia to show that the EU is not really united

Exactly. What's needed here is for the EU to stand up and put an end to these shananigans. The problem is that Russia will suspend gas shipments or support for Iranian arms control. Its a very tricky move by Putin.

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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 19):
UK has it's free lunch for a pretty long time.

Which is why we gave up part of our rebate and pay almost (IIRC) £5 billion net a year into the EU bodies... self evidently, far more than we actually get back, so I don't know how you can it a free lunch for us  

But this is divulging from the actual topic - I too would like to know what the reasoning was for banning LH Cargo?


Dan Smile

[Edited 2007-10-30 18:25:52]
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kalvado
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 18):
I have not heard one person here say why Russia has revoked LH Cargo's right to overfly.... Why? What is their reason?

The conflict is over airspace fees - LH says they're too high... I wonder did they plainly refused to pay?
 
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CARST
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:55 am

The reason don't seem to be LH Cargo not paying the fees.

In a Spiegel article (http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,514507,00.html in german) is stated that LH Cargo doesn't knows why the rights were revoked. They say it's now a political issue that should be solved by politicans, exactly the german goverment. It's also said that LH Cargo doesn't have a short term solution and that they will have to fly a 3 hour course around russian borders to their destinations in Astana and Taschkent.

Destinations in east asia aren't mentioned, perhaps because they fly to these destinations via the Arctic and countries south of russia...

It also written ("Der Spiegel" quoting "Die Welt") the dispute started because of the high fees, but nothing said about LH Cargo refusing to pay them. I don't think LHC would consider such a move because they say with the extra 3 hours and fuel burn it is cheaper for them to fly through russian airspace.

[Edited 2007-10-30 18:57:35]

[Edited 2007-10-30 18:58:55]
 
Jano
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:06 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 11):
So, we react too swiftly and harshly across the board, piss Russia off, and they refuse rights to all flights crossing them. Have you any idea what that would do to the European travel market?

It would not be the first time we would have to fly around.

However, if EU does not act as one then Russia will play with each EU member state as a cat with mice. Chase and eat them one by one.
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Acheron
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:18 am

Too many knee-jerk reactions in this post, I'm glad none of you have any actual say in what course of action to take.
Let the politicians deal with it instead of just going around bashing countries.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:43 am

Quoting Kalvado (Reply 22):
The conflict is over airspace fees - LH says they're too high...

Russia (and previously the Soviet Union) has been extracting excessive overflight fees from airlines since the Trans-Siberian route to Asia was first opened to foreign carriers in the 1970s. But since that route is so much shorter than any other routing to places like Japan and Korea etc., airlines have been willing to pay.

For the first few years, foreign airlines were required to operate jointly with Aeroflot using SU aircraft, which is why the SU Tu-114 below has JAL identification on the forward fuselage.


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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:53 am

The EU should retaliate against Russia!


Heck, the entire world should!
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scalebuilder
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting CARST (Reply 23):
The reason don't seem to be LH Cargo not paying the fees.

Is there a particular reason for why this only involves LH Cargo? Any more details at all? I find it rather odd that it would not affect LH or any other German carrier as well.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 9):
However, it's almost November 2007 and Russia still hasn't signed that treaty. What is Russia taking so long to sign this treaty and reduce those airspace/security fees starting 2013 as agreed with the EU? Or have they changed their mind about it?

I can only wonder about this as well.

This may not even be much of an issue that you would typically find in Vladimir Putin's inbox. Not yet. However, Russia is turning somewhat "hardball" on the EU and the US alike. We see a significant increase in military patrols undertaken by the Russians in Europe (much like in the Cold War days). I do not believe it is the fee charged at stake, but a showdown for the right amount of respect for the player (Russia that is).

Quoting Acheron (Reply 25):
Let the politicians deal with it instead of just going around bashing countries.

Your post is good, but it does strike a fine line. It will be tough to leave politics, national positions, and the following rederick out of this. This smells like a political decision negatively affecting free enterprise. You will simply have to allow a discussion of both.

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txkf2010
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:05 am

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 4):
Russia & Kazakhstan have been at odds lately as Kazakhstan has shown lately that they will not be told what to do from Russia. Kazakhstan has shown that Russia is not the boss anymore. After all Kazakhstan is a very very very rich country.

Now, 85% of my business is done out of Kazakhstan and all my cargo business is conducted by Lufthansa they have a virtually monopoly on the aircargo business their. This is truely very dissappointing

And we all know "Kazakhstan Number One exporter of Potassium, all other countries have inferior Potassium" lol hahaha

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MD11Engineer
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 11):
So, we react too swiftly and harshly across the board, piss Russia off, and they refuse rights to all flights crossing them. Have you any idea what that would do to the European travel market? It would cause absolute chaos, even if they only closed up for a couple of days. They by far have the upper hand in this situation, we really need to fly over them in order to reach most of the destinations in north and central Asia from Europe directly... let caution prevail, because in it's current buoyant fashion, Russia will not think twice about such a move.


Dan Smile

and bend over every time they request it....

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 21):
Which is why we gave up part of our rebate and pay almost (IIRC) £5 billion net a year into the EU bodies... self evidently, far more than we actually get back, so I don't know how you can it a free lunch for us

So you are finally paying what the other big EU countries have been doing for decades.

This whole thing has personal implications for me (jobwise), but I think it is necessary not to give in.

Jan

[Edited 2007-10-30 20:38:52]
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magyar
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:50 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 17):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
But don't you see this as an attempt by Russia to show that the EU is not really united, that when it comes to things that could really damage other nations economically, the EU will let one country hang in the wind?

Yes, it may well be, but myself, along with a very large proportion of the UK are against such a Constitution, treaty, call it what you like anyway, precisely because this is the kind of situation we don't want to be tied into, especially without a vote as to whether we want it or not...

And this is what highlights the stupidity and shortsightedness of a very large proportion of the UK. They really
think they are not "tied" into the situation if they don't get "involved". You may not be kicked around for the time
being but you are next. These people should wake up from their imperial hangover and realize that GB is no more
no less important and powerful than any other European "medium"-sized country (i.e. Germany, France).
And if they want to be successful in today's and especially tomorrow's political scene of the World they need to
pool together their weight.
 
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:27 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):
So you are finally paying what the other big EU countries have been doing for decades.

The rebate was given for several reasons; the UK was the third poorest nation in the EU at the time, and as the majority of fundings were spent on the CAP very little would have been reinvested into the UK as farming made/makes up a smaller proportion of our overall GDP than other major member states. Circumstances change, as has our contribution. That though is another topic of conversation completely.

Quoting Magyar (Reply 31):
And this is what highlights the stupidity and shortsightedness of a very large proportion of the UK. They really
think they are not "tied" into the situation if they don't get "involved". You may not be kicked around for the time
being but you are next. These people should wake up from their imperial hangover and realize that GB is no more
no less important and powerful than any other European "medium"-sized country (i.e. Germany, France).
And if they want to be successful in today's and especially tomorrow's political scene of the World they need to
pool together their weight.

I feel I may have slightly misphrased what I meant to say. What we want a choice in is the matter of our country signing up to the constitution, or not, especially when many of these kinds of decisions are going to have an implication on us, such as this potential situation. It seems a vote may be called in the UK; its now being called 'inevitable' by some ministers.

Before we carry on talking about the situation, and how Britain will get 'kicked around next time' it would be most useful to know exactly what has caused this one. Jumping to a conclusion and saying Europe has to react as a whole is a very premature response... facts need to be assessed, that's why I said caution needs to be exercised and not start jumping to conclusions, automatically assuming that Europe as a whole should stop all Russian airlines overflying it's territory is only going to make things far, far worse and seriously damage relations between the two powers. For all we know it could have been something done purely by LH Cargo.


Dan 

[Edited 2007-10-30 21:27:57]
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Basefly
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:23 am

Today an Russian TU-160 long range bomber flew into Norwegian, British and Danish airspace, which prompted the 3 nations to scramble fighter jets and rendezvous with the TU-160 and turn it away.

Analysts say it is an political move by Putin, to show strength in the upcoming elections.

Anybody else starting to think that Russia is going back to the old scary days.......?

 bomb 
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PlymSpotter
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting Basefly (Reply 33):
Anybody else starting to think that Russia is going back to the old scary days.......?

Yes, I do. I haven't heard about this yet, doesn't seem to be on the BBC (perhaps because these sorties are now quite common again), but an airspace infringement by the Russian military is indeed cause for concern. Do you have a link?


Dan Smile
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PanHAM
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:42 am

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 28):

Is there a particular reason for why this only involves LH Cargo? Any more details at all? I find it rather odd that it would not affect LH or any other German carrier as well.

has been mentioned aölready - might be because LCAG refuses to pay part of the unjustified over flying charges. Another reason might be that Russia does not like LCAG's decision to use Astana in Kazakhstan as their hub. May be Don Putin wants to make LCAG an offere they cannot refusa, make Omsk or Novosibirsk their hub.

It is all about unfair competition and it is about time that an airline resists to pay the ransom for the right to short cut on the far east destinations. Russia has collected about 300 Million € for this oin the past year. This goes into Aeroflots pockets, Amazingly, the "profit" of SU is a bit lower than this figure. Which means, the competitors are paying more than the profit and SU can pilfer in their markets.

Fishing in the neighbours pond is perfetcly alright, as long as everyone is treated equal. This is not the case here, LCAG does not complain over their higher cost base related to SU or Air Bridge Cargo. No problem.- But operating 33 D10 flights per week out of HHN (+++what ABC has) without having to pay over flying charges is simply not OK.

I am surprised that the German Government reacted that quickly and I hope that they stand firm. They should indeed revoke SU's overflying rights, not just the landing rights in HHN for their cargo ops. No able to verfly Germany means that they cannot land in LUX either. Period. They can go to BEG and truck from there, Have fun.
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:38 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 34):

Sorry only in Danish so far.....:


http://jp.dk/indland/article1148823.ece
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 35):
It is all about unfair competition and it is about time that an airline resists to pay the ransom for the right to short cut on the far east destinations. Russia has collected about 300 Million € for this oin the past year. This goes into Aeroflots pockets, Amazingly, the "profit" of SU is a bit lower than this figure. Which means, the competitors are paying more than the profit and SU can pilfer in their markets.

So basically, those €300 mio. are nothing but a subsidy for SU then?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 35):
But operating 33 D10 flights per week out of HHN (+++what ABC has) without having to pay over flying charges is simply not OK.

Doesn't ABC serve FRA instead of HHN?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 35):
No able to verfly Germany means that they cannot land in LUX either.

In theory, they could if they fly over Denmark, then through the Netherlands and Belgium and from over Brussels due south to LUX. I made a basic routing of such a flight in the Great Circle Mapper and used BLL, AMS, and BRU as intermediate points between SVO and LUX, which in theory bypasses in the most inconvenient way Germany. In terms of still air distance, it would increase still air distance (from the direct routing) from 1192 nm about 290 nm (probably around 35-40 minutes more flight time) to 1402 nm.

For LCAG, it looks a bit different. FRA-TSE basically overflies the heart of Western Russia. To bypass it, LCAG may have to add over 1000 nm or something around 2.5 hours more flight time to its routing. A hypothetical detour to TSE could be using IST and THR as reference point, going through the south, which according to the Great Circle Mapper, would be a 3379 nm still air distance routing (almost the same distance as if it was a transatlantic hop to NYC), while the direct route is 2335 nm still air distance (roughly 300 nm less than FRA-SHJ). So, unless the EU outright bans SU from flying into European Airspace, SU Cargo is luckier in that sense than LCAG because they just have to add a little bit more distance compared to what LCAG has to add. Or simply put: what SU has to add in terms of distance is peanuts compared to what LH has to add. Time is money, especially in logistics, and despite the actions from the LBA and the Federal Government, LCAG is still the big loser in this "standoff".

[Edited 2007-10-31 00:44:42]
 
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:54 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 37):
So basically, those €300 mio. are nothing but a subsidy for SU then?

That it is, de facto. SU could not sell the same low rates or they would have to increase their productivity, which, in that society, might be rather difficult. Extorting monies from the competition is the easy way to be profitable.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 37):

Doesn't ABC serve FRA instead of HHN?

Both, I guess

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 37):
In theory, they could if they fly over Denmark, then through the Netherlands and Belgium and from over Brussels due south to LUX. I made a basic routing of suc

approaching LUX from the east you go on finals over Trier. Approaching LUX from the west, a go around would over fly Germany. Taking off from the west, same. LUX cannot be operated avoiding German airspace.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 37):
peanuts compared to what LH has to add. Time is money, especially in logistics, and despite the actions from the LBA and the Federal Government, LCAG is still the big loser in this "standoff

obviously yes, but if they pull this through, aviation is the winner. I do hope that the German Government takes a firm stand on this and gets supported by the EU as well.
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:03 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 38):
approaching LUX from the east you go on finals over Trier. Approaching LUX from the west, a go around would over fly Germany. Taking off from the west, same. LUX cannot be operated avoiding German airspace.

Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. This probably means that the only way SU could serve LUX, is if LUX had a north-south runway.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 38):
I do hope that the German Government takes a firm stand on this and gets supported by the EU as well.

Like I said, such a firm stance as they're showing now, would not have happened if Schröder was still in power, given his very personal relationship with Putin, so if the government continues as firm as they are right now with Russia, you may have to give credit to Angie for it.
 
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:23 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 39):

Interesting, I wasn't aware of that. This probably means that the only way SU could serve LUX, is if LUX had a north-south runway.

Or they do sharp turns which will certainly not be on the LUX approach charts

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 39):
Like I said, such a firm stance as they're showing now, would not have happened if Schröde

Fully agreed. During the 7 years of his Chancellorship, Schröder has met with Putin about 25 times and with Bush about 3 times. Ms.Merkel has a firmer stand on things and she has no desire to go on Putin's payroll after her term.

Will b interesting to see how this affair developes.
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:28 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 38):
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 37):

Doesn't ABC serve FRA instead of HHN?

Both, I guess

No, only SU is flying to HHN regularly (and Volga-Dniepr, Tetis Air Cargo and Polet Air, plus some obscure airlines using AN-12s). I have never seen Airbrigde over here. SU is quite important though because up tonow they have 4 DC-10 based here and were planning, for next year on, to replace them with MD-11s. As an airline with a base iin HHN they give the airport a little leverage against the all might FR (which practicallly monopolises the passenger business).

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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:37 am

Hey guys,

thank god I am not flying over russia these days... I am in the south EAST of europe, so not even near Russia...
This is all very sad I must say...
I just ask myself: Why cant we just arrange to live next to each other without making the life of each other harder? Cant understand it....  Sad

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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:46 am

Just checked the LH Intranet for further information. We still fly via TSE (Astana) but the flights are delayed. I checked all our aircrafts and the longest delay was 2 hours, rest up to one hour... or not flying via Astana... I guess all crews fly pretty fast to minimize the delay... Unbelievable and sad  Sad

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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:31 am

Time to wake up Europe. Remember who your friends really are. Putin is a megalomaniac, IMO. He is trying to influence domestic German politics. How? I'm not sure. I'd encourage the US build that Anti-Missle station ASAP.
IMO, Russia is a bigger problem than Iran right now. This LH issue is the tip of the Iceberg, IMO.  redflag 
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:46 am

is the belly load on commercial flights also affected by this revoke?
LH sends often their A306's to SVO and they could carry a lot of cargo in their belly. also SU is flying with Airbus equipment to Germany and carry a bit of the absolutely necesarry things.
I mean the cargo load on this flights are forwarded/handled by LH Cargo and not LH Pax itself.
 
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:04 am

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 44):
Time to wake up Europe. Remember who your friends really are.

agree

when you think a Russian bank owns a percentage of Airbus and wants more of the capital, that's scary....
in another field it's quite interesting to see Gazprom insisting and trying to buy gas distribution networks in EU: for what purpose? to make cuts the day Putin is angry like they do to Ukraine and Belarus?

I fear they want to apply to other domains the airspace blackmail and it should not be the moment to play "a la UK" but on the contrary we should be all with Germany

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 11):
So, we react too swiftly and harshly across the board, piss Russia off, and they refuse rights to all flights crossing them. Have you any idea what that would do to the European travel market? It would cause absolute chaos, even if they only closed up for a couple of days. They by far have the upper hand in this situation, we really need to fly over them in order to reach most of the destinations in north and central Asia from Europe directly... let caution prevail, because in it's current buoyant fashion, Russia will not think twice about such a move.

the next time a flamboyant Russian oil magnat asks to buy and dismantle Big Ben and to transport it to Magnitogorsk why don't you guys say YES? I don't know you could piss them off otherwise....
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:05 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 8):
And another blow for Europe : it should not be Germany retaliating alone, it should be Europe.

   We should stop this now, first were the missiles pointing Europe, now we are banned from their airspace.

We should act as a whole and revoke all Russian rights to fly over Europe, from the southernmost part of Spain to the northermost part of Finland.

[Edited 2007-10-31 03:06:53]
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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:12 am

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 45):

I mean the cargo load on this flights are forwarded/handled by LH Cargo and not LH Pax itself.

This affects cargo flights only. So far, the passenger flights are operating normally. Same goes for LH pax flights overflying Russian airspace on the way to the FE. At least there has been no news on that so far.

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 44):
Time to wake up Europe. Remember who your friends really are. Putin is a megalomaniac, IMO. He is trying to influence domestic German politics. How? I'm not sure. I'd encourage the US build that Anti-Missle station ASAP.
IMO, Russia is a bigger problem than Iran right now. This LH issue is the tip of the Iceberg, IMO.

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RE: Russia Revokes Overflying Rights For LH Cargo

Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:15 am

Will this be the beginning of the next cold war?

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