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aloha73g
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Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:23 am

Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
kingcavalier
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:27 am

Wow. I'm sure HA and AQ would be happy with just having Mesa exit Hawaii all together. Maybe a deal can be worked out to excuse the $80M.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
 
freshlove1
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:33 am

Big deal so they get 80 mil. Insurance will cover that and J.O. will continue his crap. Mesa may have "lost" 80 mil but they will make that up in due time. Unfortunatly J.O. .will push one of them out of business. Now he can use what he knows because the 80 mil is the settlement for AQ and HA. Now those $9 fares will run crazy and AQ and HA will feel it in the long run. AQ and HA may have "won" now but unfortunatly I think one of them will lose in the long run then Mesa can step in and take the place of the one who had closed up shop, raise prices, and gouge the people of Hawaii with high fares like HA and AQ are doing now. I'd rather see Mesa go but I just don't think it will happen.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:33 am

Don't hold your breath HA.

I'm sure Mesa will appeal and make full use of its legal options.

Just last week read Exxon Valdez award is still being debated by courts 20 years later, after having been already halved two times
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
woodsboy
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:39 am

I cant say that I feel "gouged" by $29-89 I pay for interisland flights on HA or AQ, Just last week we bought two one way tickets from LIH to HNL for $80 bux, seems decent to me! I also always check what GO! is charging before I buy my tickets on one of the other two and recently GO! has been slightly more, but still in the same general range. I havent actually flown on Go! but when I am on HA or AQ the flights are usually pretty full, it has always seemed to me that the capacity seems about right for the business that exists for interisland travel, not counting Go, I dont know how full they run. What about the little guys like Island Air and Pacific Wings? They also seems to be hanging in there, but I know they serve the smaller airports. Those are my thoughts.
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:42 am

Why is this good news for AQ? The money is going to HA.

Good of the judge to not bar go! from selling tickets.
I love ASO!
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:56 am

Quoting Woodsboy (Reply 4):
I cant say that I feel "gouged" by $29-89 I pay for interisland flights on HA or AQ, Just last week we bought two one way tickets from LIH to HNL for $80 bux, seems decent to me!

Only because Go is in the market. If it wasn't, you'd be paying much more on Aloha and Hawaiian. Thank Go for your low interisland prices.
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itsnotfinals
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:56 am

YV already has been having bad financial performance and this will not help, insurance pay out of not.

It highly Ironic that JO decided to risk this lawsuit to operate just 5 CRJ's in Hawai'i.

The stock price has already been down over 40% just in the last 12 months for Mesa, this will only hurt it

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=1y&s...n&z=m&q=l&c=luv&c=%5EGSPC&c=%5EDJI
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acvitale
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:38 am

Insurance may not cover this...

Better check on the policy exclusions...

Also this does not resolve the AQ lawsuit against YV

This does nothing to mitigate an anti-trust/price dumping lawsuit from AQ and HA against YV.

Call this the first battle win. The war is still being fought!
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 8):
Insurance may not cover this...

Better check on the policy exclusions...

And also, the policy limits (maximum payout).

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
redflyer
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:49 am

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 2):
Mesa may have "lost" 80 mil but they will make that up in due time.

Yes, by paying their flight crews even less money!  Wink

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Just last week read Exxon Valdez award is still being debated by courts 20 years later

Don't exagerate! It's only been 18 years!!

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 6):
Thank Go for your low interisland prices.

Competition is the greatest invention since our predecessors learned to walk upright. But "dumping" to gain market share is not being competitive and it's not in the best interests of any market.

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 8):
Insurance may not cover this...

Better check on the policy exclusions...

Also this does not resolve the AQ lawsuit against YV

This does nothing to mitigate an anti-trust/price dumping lawsuit from AQ and HA against YV.

Call this the first battle win. The war is still being fought!

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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:58 am

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 5):
Why is this good news for AQ? The money is going to HA.

Its good for Aloha because it means they are more likely to win their suit (the judge previously ruled that they have a STRONGER case than Hawaiian).

It also means that the Mesa Board of Directors is more likely to tell JO to cut his losses and get out of Hawai'i. They are FAR from being even remotely close to profitable....and this certainly doesn't help. Check the stock price tomorrow and you'll see what I mean. Remember the BOD has a responisbility to the shareholders; not JO.

Perhaps they will try to settle with AQ....."we'll pay you $20 million in cash, and leave now, and rebook all of passengers on your flights."

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
freshlove1
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:10 am

AQ and HA have been taking advantage of the people of HI for years with their high prices. They get some compitition and they go run and cry to the Judge. Personally I really don't care about the airlines of HI and if the people want only HA nad AQ then fine but dont complain when they charge insane prices to fly you a short distance after all the compitition is forced to leave. If they want to play like that then we should kick HA and AQ off the mainland. It's only fair right?
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:26 am

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 12):
AQ and HA have been taking advantage of the people of HI for years with their high prices.

I contend their prices were fair. Heres why:

* The market hasn't grown with the rock-bottom prices (No "Southwest Effect"). To me this says that everyone who wanted to fly was flying before.

* If you weren't flying on the 10 busiest days of the year at the busiest times you were paying $60-80 each way; which is comparable to similar routes on the mainland.

*PDX-SEA is most similar in my eyes and Horizon's fares were MUCH higher that interisland fares. Also WN's routes within Texas, California and Florida were on par or HIGHER than interisland fares.

NOW, I ask....what is wrong with a company making a profit?? If it costs them about $60 to provide a service, whats wrong with charging $70?? Do you expect Wal-Mart or Costco to sell you toilet paper that cost them $1 per roll for 50 cents?? Or Ford to sell you a $20,000 car for $12,000??

People should expect to pay what it costs to provide a service or product, plus a little more.

If Mesa had come in with lowwer costs than AQ and HA and challenged them fairly on price (Mesa's lower costs plus a small profit), that would be one thing. They do not have lower costs, they have HIGHER COSTS than AQ and HA.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
toltommy
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:27 am

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 12):
AQ and HA have been taking advantage of the people of HI for years with their high prices. They get some compitition and they go run and cry to the Judge.

Have you read up at all about this lawsuit? AQ and HA didn't go to court over the fact that GO is flying on the island. It's how they made the decision to enter. The court found that Mesa used proprietary information from the 2 airlines in order to decide to start GO. The court found that Mesa had used information that was confidential and that they had agreed would not be used for such purposes.
 
acvitale
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 12):
AQ and HA have been taking advantage of the people of HI for years with their high prices. They get some compitition and they go run and cry to the Judge. Personally I really don't care about the airlines of HI and if the people want only HA nad AQ then fine but dont complain when they charge insane prices to fly you a short distance after all the compitition is forced to leave. If they want to play like that then we should kick HA and AQ off the mainland. It's only fair right?

Sadly, To make such a statement shows a clear lack of understanding of the actual costs, fares, and even this specific situation.

There is nothing insane about $59 for a 1 hr hop. Tell me the problem with that fare.

Do you believe that Mesa which has a higher cost structure is making money on $9/$19/$29 fares when the break even is going to be $59/$69/$79

To support YV which violated confidentiality and then make comments about kicking AQ and HA off the mainline is just juvenile and frankly has me baffled.

Are you one who feels that you are entitled and that every company owes you a free ride... Or nearly free ?
 
freshlove1
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:52 am

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 15):
Are you one who feels that you are entitled and that every company owes you a free ride... Or nearly free ?

No, charge what is necessary for the route but in the case of HA and AQ they have been gouging the people of HI for years then when compitition comes in they cry because they can't get away with murder anymore.


The $59 is because there because of GO!....without GO! it would be well over $100 each way. Just watch what happens if and when GO! or any other low cost airline that may try in HI is forced to leave HI.


No Mesa is not making money in HI, everyone knows that. The mainland fee for departure flights are making up for the loss in HI. What gets me is that HA an AQ are scared of Mesa and their 5 plane CRJ operation. There should be no fear from Mesa even if they do only charge $9. 5 CRJ's are not going to take down AQ or HA unless their business plan is so bad.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:58 am

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 16):
in the case of HA and AQ they have been gouging the people of HI for years

Prove it. Many people say they are gouging but don't back it up with facts. How many interisland tickets have you ever bought?? Is Southwest "Gouging" with thei $100 fares from between Southern and Norther California??

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 16):
The $59 is because there because of GO!

There currently isn't a "$59 fare."

go!'s fares are of the $1, $9, $19, $29 and $39 variety.

$59 is actually what AQ and HA charged as sale fares before anyone in Hawai'i had even heard of go! or Mesa (2003, 2004).

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
freshlove1
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:04 am

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 17):
Is Southwest "Gouging" with thei $100 fares from between Southern and Norther California??

This is not about WN. But i'm sure if WN decided to come to HI and charged $69 from LAX-HNL or something like that both AQ and HI would be once again crying because someone has offered lower prices.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 18):
This is not about WN. But i'm sure if WN decided to come to HI and charged $69 from LAX-HNL or something like that both AQ and HI would be once again crying because someone has offered lower prices.

I was providing one of many examples of one of many similar routes on the mainland that have fares which are higher than the fares AQ and HA charged. You (or anyone) has yet to prove that HA and AQ have gouged anyone.

If Southwest decided to fly from the mainland to Hawai'i, they wouldn't charge $69.....they are way to smart for that. I'm not sure why you brought that up. LA to HNL (for example) is probably one of the most competitive routes in the US with daily service from AA, UA, DL, NW, CO, ATA, HA, AQ and probably someone else. HA and AQ compete just fine on these routes, and do so profitably (they both make $$ on mainland flights) while providing better service than the other carriers.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
masseybrown
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 2):
Insurance will cover that

I agree with ACVitale on this. While it's a civil judgement, not criminal, Mesa's actions were not inadvertent and the consequences were avoidable. The insurance company will likely be filing its own suit if Mesa submits a claim.

Note also in the judgement that interest begins accruing on the $80 million as of the day of the judgement. Delaying the award through the appeals process won't stop that accrual.

Look also for a shareholders' suit against Mesa if the judgement is upheld on any appeal.

[Edited 2007-10-30 20:17:48]
 
acvitale
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:42 am

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 16):
The $59 is because there because of GO!....without GO! it would be well over $100 each way. Just watch what happens if and when GO! or any other low cost airline that may try in HI is forced to leave HI.

Ahh.... I remember 99 roundtrip 49.50 each way before go! was a dream.
 
searpqx
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 16):
The $59 is because there because of GO!....without GO! it would be well over $100 each way. Just watch what happens if and when GO! or any other low cost airline that may try in HI is forced to leave HI.

Sorry bud - but reality disagrees w/ your rant. I lived in Hawaii (Maui) for three years prior to Mesa's arrival, and the most I ever paid, was $98, last minute, OW OGG-KOA. OGG-HNL planned in advance usually ran between 150-180 for two of us RT.

Not only that, but because fares had finally stabilized, not only did I have frequent jet service on AQ & HA to HNL, I had the option of frequent Island Air service to the other islands, and Island Air was about to expand service and add new planes. Guess what - they're down to 4 planes (I think -not sure of the exact number) and where there used to be 5+ NS OGG to KOA, there are now three.

I am the worlds biggest advocate of true competition, but Go was nothing more than attempt to drive a weak competitor out of the market using questionable (at best) practices. JO himself said that once the market 'rationalized' Go would raise prices.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
hawaiian717
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 22):
Not only that, but because fares had finally stabilized, not only did I have frequent jet service on AQ & HA to HNL, I had the option of frequent Island Air service to the other islands, and Island Air was about to expand service and add new planes.

Before Go showed up, Island Air was competing on the major routes as well as serving the secondary markets and was offering some great deals, significantly undercutting HA and AQ. Nobody was complaining then.

As has been said before, the problem is not that Go is offering low fares. The problem is that they're doing it with proprietary information that they had access to as a potential bidder in both HA and AQ's bankruptcies and were supposed to have destroyed.
 
georgebush
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:14 am

I say everyone should boycott GO! entirely. In my opinion we should also write UA DL and US to tell them to drop Mesa or we will find another express flight on a different carrier to fly with. If you get 50 of their biggest corporate clients, you might be able to get your point across.
Al Gore invented global warming.
 
T prop
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 12):
AQ and HA have been taking advantage of the people of HI for years with their high prices. They get some compitition and they go run and cry to the Judge. Personally I really don't care about the airlines of HI and if the people want only HA nad AQ then fine but dont complain when they charge insane prices to fly you a short distance after all the compitition is forced to leave. If they want to play like that then we should kick HA and AQ off the mainland. It's only fair right?

Kick HA and AQ off the mainland? You sound like a spiteful child. You want to talk about fair? Mesa's version of fair just cost them $80 mil, good thing the judge didn't award the full amount to HA , at least some will be left for AQ. Now that's being fair.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:12 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 20):
Note also in the judgement that interest begins accruing on the $80 million as of the day of the judgement. Delaying the award through the appeals process won't stop that accrual.

An appeal can have the whole award thrown out, or significantly reduced mitigating any interest that might or might not accrue and which itself is subject to review or amendment by a higher court.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:15 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 26):
An appeal can have the whole award thrown out, or significantly reduced mitigating any interest that might or might not accrue and which itself is subject to review or amendment by a higher court.

Or the appeals court could refuse to hear the case and let the judgement stand.

I'm no lawyer....does anyone know if the fact the trial was in banruptcy court affects how/if it can be appealed, and if so to what court??

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
MSYPI7185
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:26 am

The fares GO are charging are irrelevant. If a company wants to lose money that is their business. Stupidity is not a crime although it should be in some cases.

The point is confidential information was used to establish GO to begin with. By MESA being a potential buyer they had access to confidential information. Think of it in terms of insider trading or stealing the formula for Coca Cola and starting a competitor at a much, much lower cost.

The courts could care less what an airline charges, unless it is a monopoly.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:56 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 26):
An appeal can have the whole award thrown out,

Yep, but I said "delaying the award" not overturning it.


The appeals process can be a lengthy one:

A bankruptcy court is authorized to decide all referred business, except in limited matters known as “non-core” proceedings. If one of the parties does not consent to entry of a judgment by the bankruptcy judge in these proceedings, the bankruptcy court may only hear the matter and submit proposed findings of fact and conclusions of law to the district court. The district judge then enters the final order, which is subject to review by the courts of appeals or bankruptcy appellate panels.

[Edited 2007-10-31 01:00:54]
 
LAXintl
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:17 am

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 27):
does anyone know if the fact the trial was in bankruptcy court affects how/if it can be appealed, and if so to what court??

While not airline related I know of a California based industrial paint/solvent manufacturer whom had emerged from BK and filed a case back BK court alleging harm had been done to it during its BK process and won at trial held in the BK court.

The defendant appealed to district/curcuit courts claiming the BK court was the incorrect jurisdiction for the claim to begin with and also that the BK court was biased in favor of claimant as the court had interest in the well being of the the company having just heard its BK case.

The defendant won on appeal forcing and the whole thing to start over from scratch.

Off course this was in the mid/late 90s, so I dont know if the recent bankruptcy law amendments would change any potential appeal process, however doubt it especially when one considers the magnitude of the $80mil award.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
T prop
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:25 am

If Mesa appeals they have to put up a chunk of change as a bond that is held until the outcome of the appeal is decided. Anyone have a clue as to how much they have to put up, is it the whole 80 mil, a percentage of that, if so how much?
 
LAXintl
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:33 am

Found this Mesa press release, and indeed they are talking about an appellate process.

Quote:
Mesa Air Group, Inc. Comments on Recent Court Proceedings
Wednesday October 31,

PHOENIX, Oct. 31 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Mesa Air Group, Inc. announced today that it will seek to overturn the ruling rendered today by the United States Bankruptcy Court for the District of Hawaii in the breach of contract lawsuit brought by Hawaiian Airlines, Inc.

Under that ruling, the court found Mesa violated the terms of a confidentiality agreement with Hawaiian Airlines and awarded Hawaiian $80 million in damages. This ruling arises out of the Court's finding that the Company's executive vice president and chief financial officer, George Peter Murnane, intentionally and in bad faith destroyed evidence pertinent to Hawaiian's case against Mesa.

The Court rejected Hawaiian's bid to prohibit go! from selling tickets, which Mesa believes was Hawaiian's primary intention in filing suit. go!'s regularly scheduled services are ongoing and the Company remains committed to provide the highest quality lowest cost service in the Hawaiian inter-island market.

"We are obviously very disappointed with this judgment. The order is not a result of a jury finding, but from a Bankruptcy Judge who entered sanctions against Mesa concerning evidentiary issues. We believe these sanctions went too far and that an impartial appellate court will find the sanctions and this judgment should be set aside," said Jonathan Ornstein, Chairman and Chief Executive of Mesa Airlines.

"As we have pointed out from the inception of this case, Hawaiian's true motive in filing suit was to stifle competition and maintain the high fares and reduced capacity fostered by the inter-island duopoly led by Hawaiian Airlines.

Full story;
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/071031/law098.html?.v=98

The release does also mention that Mesa would post a bond or letter of credit as security during the appeal. (in other worlds becoming restricted cash on the balance sheet)


Additionally Judge Faris full decision can be read at
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/dailypix/2007/Oct/30/mesaruling.pdf
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
ikramerica
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:45 am

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 28):
The fares GO are charging are irrelevant. If a company wants to lose money that is their business.

Actually, it's not. Not when that company is only a branch of a much larger company.

Product dumping to destroy a market is considered a crime because it is detrimental to society. The long term costs are higher to everyone. It's a monopolistic approach.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
hnl-jack
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:46 am

I live in Honolulu and just prior to the entry of Go in the market I paid $129 (ow) between Maui and Oahu on HA. The cheapest fare at that time was about $79, but generally not available on the prime time flights. With the probable exit of Go, fares will once again average $100 or more.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:57 am

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 34):
I live in Honolulu and just prior to the entry of Go in the market I paid $129 (ow) between Maui and Oahu on HA. The cheapest fare at that time was about $79, but generally not available on the prime time flights. With the probable exit of Go, fares will once again average $100 or more.

That doesn't jive with what others have said, but let's assume that was true.

Were the flights full? Close to full?

If so, why should any company voluntarily charge less than customers are willing to pay if they are filling their planes? And if there was room for another carrier to enter at a lower price and make a profit, why didn't anyone enter before go!? And why wasn't go! making a profit?

Things that make one go hmmmm....
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:09 am

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 34):
I live in Honolulu and just prior to the entry of Go in the market I paid $129 (ow) between Maui and Oahu on HA. The cheapest fare at that time was about $79, but generally not available on the prime time flights. With the probable exit of Go, fares will once again average $100 or more.

In the 6 months prior to go!'s entry in June 2006 most (if not all) of the sale fares disappeared. My guess is that AQ and HA were pricing conservatively based on the unknown that was coming. During this period the regular fare fluctuated between $68 and $78.

Since the elimination of coupons after 9/11, fares rose to about the $60-80 level, with cheaper sales. I remember Aloha doing a $99 roundtrip sale (mentioned above; presumably matched by HA). I also know that Aloha sold flight coupons for $58 for their 58th Anniversary (July 2004).

As always, if you were flying on a Friday at 4 or 5pm, or a Sunday at 7pm the flights were full and last minute tickets were unavailable, or over $100. I think this is reasonable.

My parent's company has offices on O'ahu, Kaua'i and in Hilo, plus occasional projects on Maui. My Dad flies atleast once a month. My experience before go! was that tickets on Aloha were almost always available in the $60-80 range if you planned atleast a few days in advance and weren't flying at the peak times (Sometimes they were more, but sometimes they were less). I don't recall their company ever paying more than $90 for a one-way ticket.

To me, pre-go! pricing was economically rational and served the market well.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:12 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 35):
Were the flights full? Close to full?

As a sidenote, the demand for seats is why Aloha removed First Class from its 737-200 interisland fleet. I recall that often, the flights at peak times were sold out and all that was left was First Class, which rarely filled up with revenue passengers). Complaints over these higher last minute (F-Class) fares led to the removal of First Class in favor of an increase in coach seats.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
ikramerica
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:17 am

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 36):
To me, pre-go! pricing was economically rational and served the market well.

I assume that if the flights were full, there were enough customers willing to pay those fares.

Again, there will always be the faction of people who believe they are being cheated no matter how much they pay. But if HA and AQ were filling their planes with those fares and they still were fighting off bankruptcy, what does that say? It either says the costs were too high, or the fares were not high enough (or both). Since much of the costs were labor, was the answer to cut salaries of HA and AQ employees? Wouldn't we just have a different group of people bitching?  Wink
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
SpencerII
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:54 am

Mesa's Response.....

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix....-newsArticle&ID=1070019&highlight=

the ruling was from a "Bankrupcty Judge", This will be overturned very quickly I'm sure, which will catapult this to a higher court.

[Edited 2007-10-31 04:00:02]
 
ha763
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:49 am

I think that it's good that Mesa has to pay because they were stupid enough to get caught. I also hope their appeals fail as well. If it wasn't for J.O. opening his mouth about being able to check out the books of HA and AQ while they were in bankruptcy, they would have pretty much have gotten away with it. This was the point where HA decided to look in on the issue and sue. I'm glad this happened and HA pursued the issue since it has exposed Mesa to be a cheat and not some low fare champion for the people of Hawaii.

I always felt that as long as HA showed one document that was not normally publicly available, they would win a substantial amount. Well, it looks like that they showed a whole bunch of documents that were not normally available to the public.

Quoting Hawaiian717 (Reply 23):
Before Go showed up, Island Air was competing on the major routes as well as serving the secondary markets and was offering some great deals, significantly undercutting HA and AQ. Nobody was complaining then.

Most of Island Air's fares were not that much lower HA and AQ. However, Island Air did have a regular $50 fare sale that was was $10-15 lower than HA and AQ's lowest fare at the time.

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 34):
I live in Honolulu and just prior to the entry of Go in the market I paid $129 (ow) between Maui and Oahu on HA. The cheapest fare at that time was about $79, but generally not available on the prime time flights. With the probable exit of Go, fares will once again average $100 or more.

This is the kind of half-truths that keep the "interisland fares are too high" crowd going. The only time we hear about high fares are during the high demand periods, but they don't say that, especially on the news broadcasts. The news stations always go to the airport during the busy holiday travel season to interview people and they just say, "I paid X amount and it's too high," and, "It's so crowded." We are not told what time they are flying or how early they booked unless they are proud that they got a low fare because they booked early.

I don't know why people are complaining about roundtrip fares that averaged around $150 being too expensive. During the ending of the interisland coupon days, the price of an interisland coupon was over $70. You needed 2 of them to fly roundtrip, so you would have paid over $140. Yet, nobody was complaining about being ripped off like they are now after the ending of the coupon system.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:00 pm

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 12):
AQ and HA have been taking advantage of the people of HI for years with their high prices

HA and AQ are consistently cheaper than their main land counterparts even before go!. Try to buy a ticket from BOS to LGA (112 dollars only with 14 day advance r/t purchase and only Tues and Wed) or LAX to SFO (103 dollars one way 2 week advance) .

When you figure in how much more expensive jet A is on HAwai'i due to it having to be tankered to the islands, you can see AQ and HA are a deal.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 16):
No, charge what is necessary for the route but in the case of HA and AQ they have been gouging the people of HI for years then when compitition comes in they cry because they can't get away with murder anymore.

Absolutley false. HA and AQ are very price competitive with other US carriers.

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 28):
If a company wants to lose money that is their business.

Actually if a subsidiary company shows a systematic purposeful loss for long periods of time, the IRS tends to have some issues with that.
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MSYPI7185
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:31 pm

I was not referring to the IRS aspect of losing money, that is not what is being discussed. Some are taking the judges ruling and trying to say his ruling had to do with the fares being charged. It did not. Now off topic a bit. Airlines frequently charge fares below cost in order to get established and it happens all the time. They even charges fares below cost to get rid of competition, specifically new entrants, and the courts do not get involved in these and I have yet to hear of the IRS getting involved. Not that they cant in certain circumstances.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:36 pm

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 42):
I was not referring to the IRS aspect of losing money, that is not what is being discussed. Some are taking the judges ruling and trying to say his ruling had to do with the fares being charged.

You are correct. The ruling was about the breach of contract and unethical/illegal actions of Mesa and its executives. The fares charged only come into play when calculating how much Mesa's actions have cost HA. Obviously, lower fares lead to greater losses.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
kstatepilot
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:01 pm

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 41):
LAX to SFO

Not quite the same:
LAX-SFO is 337 n.m.
HNL-LIH is 102 n.m.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:10 pm

Quoting Kstatepilot (Reply 44):
Not quite the same:
LAX-SFO is 337 n.m.
HNL-LIH is 102 n.m.

Remember that there is a point on ultra short flights where they become more expensive due to the lack of cruise at altitude and the extreme number of cycles.

Comparing Interisland routes with routes on the mainland is hard because they are SO short (similar length routes on the mainland wouldn't be flown by more than 30 roundtrips per day on mainline jets) making comaprisons hard. PDX-SEA, DAL-AUS and OAK-RNO seem closest to me.....ALL of which generally have higher fares than interisland routes.

-Aloha!

[Edited 2007-10-31 13:10:48]
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:56 pm

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 24):
In my opinion we should also write UA DL and US to tell them to drop Mesa or we will find another express flight on a different carrier to fly with

United owns a nice chunk of Aloha. And United contracts with Mesa for a lot of its regional flying on the mainland. If UA weren't happy with what Go is doing in Hawaii vis a vis Aloha, they'd have the muscle to make them stop. Unless I've missed something, UA hasn't objected.
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itsnotfinals
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:13 pm

Quoting Kstatepilot (Reply 44):
LAX-SFO is 337 n.m.
HNL-LIH is 102 n.m.

BOS-LGA is only 160 NM. there are several more markets than HNL-LIH, OGG is a ways further. and yet Go! has have cheap fares there too.

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=b...E=best&RANGE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 46):
Unless I've missed something, UA hasn't objected.

Not officially.
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HAL
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:26 pm

Quoting Kstatepilot (Reply 44):
Not quite the same:
LAX-SFO is 337 n.m.
HNL-LIH is 102 n.m.

Then let's try a closer distance. Phoenix to Tucson is about 108n.m.
Mesa charges $238 (according to expedia) for a one-way purchase with less than 7 days notice. Distance has much less to do with airfares than most people believe. The per-cycle cost is what drives airfares, not distance. It doesn't matter if you went across town, it still costs a large percentage of what it costs to fly across the country.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Mesa Ordered To Pay $80 Million To HA

Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:28 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 48):
The per-cycle cost is what drives airfares, not distance

totally agree. that same one way BOS-LGA fare with 1 day advance is 336 dollars one way, I was being kind when I used the round trip 14 day advance.
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L