nycfly75
Posts: 643
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:38 pm

FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:41 am

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...ctors/transport/article2774481.ece

Fair Use:

"Plans by British Airways to launch a new airline between Europe and New York have been thrown into disarray after American aviation authorities threatened to veto any increase of air traffic into the chronically congested John F. Kennedy airport.

The Times has learnt that the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is about to start talks with foreign airlines, including BA, to reduce congestion at JFK, the main New York airport. It is thought that the feasibility of launching the new airline will be a key issue under discussion at the BA board meeting tomorrow, when company executives gather to discuss the group’s interim results published on Friday."
 
flyingcat
Posts: 341
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 10:33 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:46 am

If this turns out to be true Air France has beaten BA in this round.
 
kaitak
Posts: 8942
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:59 am

This might pose problems for the whole Open Skies process; the UK govt could argue, "well, if you're not going to allow more flights to JFK, we won't allow new flights from LHR". Of course, BA could fly to EWR instead ...
 
Byrdluvs747
Posts: 2375
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:25 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 1):
If this turns out to be true Air France has beaten BA in this round.

Wouldn't allowing the AF flights and not allowing the BA flights be inappropriate? I would think that the FAA would have to allow both and then impose any necessary restrictions.

Also wouldnt it be easier for BA/AA to "attack" AF in CDG than it would be for AF to do the same at LHR?
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
ETStar
Posts: 1850
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:25 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 2):
Of course, BA could fly to EWR instead ...

... and the others could remain at LGW, non?
 
nycfly75
Posts: 643
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:38 pm

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:07 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 2):
This might pose problems for the whole Open Skies process; the UK govt could argue, "well, if you're not going to allow more flights to JFK, we won't allow new flights from LHR". Of course, BA could fly to EWR instead ...

Open Skies is not adding to the number of flights/slots into LHR, it is just allowing more airlines to use LHR. Those new airlines still have to obtain existing slots into LHR. JFK is having major capacity issues so Im sure BA is not the only airline thats going to feel the heat. Any Int'l carrier into JFK with more than 2-3 daily flights (BA,AF, LH...) is going to be feeling pressure to make some schedule adjustments, especially if all those flights are within the rush hour period. EWR is having similar capacity issues which are made worse by the lack of runways and CO's dominance. I think the 16:00-19:59 period should be slotted to 90 departures/hour with the 18:00-19:59 period closed to all departures except International and TRANSCON.

[Edited 2007-10-30 22:27:09]
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:54 am

Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 1):
If this turns out to be true Air France has beaten BA in this round.

IIRC 'slots' at JFK for S08 have yet to be assigned to any carrier. There are no assurances that AF (or any other airline) will receive any additional permissions, let alone the ones they operated last year. USG, and in particular, the DOJ does not like the idea of historical preference (aka Grandfather rights).
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13762
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:04 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 2):
This might pose problems for the whole Open Skies process; the UK govt could argue, "well, if you're not going to allow more flights to JFK, we won't allow new flights from LHR". Of course, BA could fly to EWR instead ...

The UK gov't is not allowing any more flights into LHR. It's only removing an unfair rule that restricts CO, DL, NW, US and any other non AA/UA USA airline from flying there, but allows every other airline in the world, and even allows for some 5th freedom airlines to fly LHR-USA.

JFK is talking about limiting operations during peak hours, a move that would effect EVERYONE, and prevent EVERYONE from expanding. BA has plans to add flights, during rush hour, to JFK.

Now BA might say it's not their fault that DL and AA and B6 have filled up the schedule, but there is nothing stopping BA from adding UK flights today, or from adding them over the last five years, or 10, to establish "slots" there.

Further, the limitations on JFK won't mean BA can't operate EU-USA flights to all the other airports and destinations in the USA. It's not the FAA's problem that BA decided to start this airline with 757s, which can't make it past New York. BA could use 767s and fly as much as they want to ORD and IAD and LAX and SFO and MIA from all over Europe should they choose.

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 5):
JFK is having major capacity issues so Im sure BA is not the only airline thats going to feel the heat.

Everyone will. DL and AA and B6 are going to have to make tough decisions as well.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
The UK gov't is not allowing any more flights into LHR.

When pointing that out, don't forget to mention that the treaty restricting LHR access wasn't a unilateral one...  Wink

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
Now BA might say it's not their fault that DL and AA and B6 have filled up the schedule

... and they'd be right. If US carriers fill up an airport with more departures than the airport can handle alltogether, then it's hardly BA's fault, nor any other international carrier's fault. Strangely enough, the US (not sure who exactly it was, it was a couple of months ago when the open skies treaty was announced) think that they're entitled to receive slots at LHR: if they're entitled to slots at LHR, then BA is most certainly entitled to slots at JFK (or another slot-restricted airport that they'd like to fly to).

What's good for the goose...

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
Further, the limitations on JFK won't mean BA can't operate EU-USA flights to all the other airports and destinations in the USA.

That's irrelevant. The limitations on LHR didn't mean that CO, NW, DL etc. couldn't operate any other USA-EU flights, still that was deemed an unfair disadvantage.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
It's not the FAA's problem that BA decided to start this airline with 757s, which can't make it past New York.

It most certainly is their problem - as they're the ones that allowed the situation at JFK to deteriorate to the point where it is now. They're the ones, together with US carriers, that created the mess - they should clean it up again.

Same goes for BA, BAA and whoever else is involved at LHR.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13762
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:52 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 8):
When pointing that out, don't forget to mention that the treaty restricting LHR access wasn't a unilateral one...

It was as good as unilateral. The UK had the upper hand, and there wasn't much the USA could do. It was a bilateral treaty that was meant to protect BA as it was emerging from government ownership and facing competition from around the world. And it was also meant to try to keep PA and TW afloat, which didn't work out so well. But what made sense (or didn't) 20 and 30 years ago doesn't make sense in 2008. BA isn't in danger anymore.

The problem with any such legislation is that even as the entity that needed help no longer needs help, they will fight tooth and nail to keep the help coming. It's a universal problem around the globe.

To quote Grandpa Simpson when he was asked where he got the money he gave bart as a birthday gift:

"From the Government. I don't need it, lord knows I didn't earn it, but I'll fight 'em tooth and nail if they try to take it from me."

Quoting Leskova (Reply 8):
That's irrelevant. The limitations on LHR didn't mean that CO, NW, DL etc. couldn't operate any other USA-EU flights, still that was deemed an unfair disadvantage.

BA is not restricted from flying to ANY us city or airport, including JFK. It's only going to be subjected to the same "slots" that any other carrier is at JFK. BA planned to expand at JFK next year. This move is NOT to prevent BA from doing so. Nothing prevented them from adding as many flights as they wanted to THIS year. Or last year. Or the year before. From LHR or to fly to JFK from anywhere else in England, for that matter.

But next year, new rules may be put in place for ALL carriers. No carrier will gain an unfair advantage. And the argument that a domestic carrier shouldn't have more slots holds no weight considering the number of slots BA holds at LHR, the number of flights LH has at FRA or AF has at CDG. And there is nothing stopping BA from flying CDG-JFK next year, either. Or FRA. But when all airlines need to limit their number of flights, BA will have to decide which routes are most important and what equipment works best, just like AA, DL, AF, etc. will have to do. All the airlines are going to be bitching about this, and I think DL especially is going to be in for a rude awakening.

BA can time some of their London flights differently. So could AA, DL, VS. Part of the reason "rush hour" exists is because airlines have traditionally defined departure and arrival times for TATL during that period and customers "expect" those times now, but there is wiggle room to shift some of these flights around. If all the seats are full at 7:01pm, and no other options exist because no other carrier has seats either, will customers just decide that they don't have business in London after all? No, they'll fly on the 8:30pm and adjust their schedule accordingly.

Currently BA flies 4 744s between JFK and LHR in a 1.5 hour span during "rush hour" but if everyone was limited before 8pm, and BA had to trim it to 2 flights (6:30pm and 7:15pm) and then 3 flights between 8pm and 9pm instead, and other airlines had the same limitations, it wouldn't really impact them much, other than a longer turn time for a couple aircraft by about 1 hour. (Of course, there's the problem of LHR having time specific slots on the other end, but I don't think JFK's rules, if adopted, will be as draconian. And BA, which holds the most LHR slots by far, is in a much better position to adjust slots on the LHR end than AA, DL, etc.) And BA could also run their CDG and FRA flights after 8pm, or one before and one after if they decided to use their slots that way. Since the 757s are supposed to be "JFK based" anyway, I'm not sure why this is such a problem.

In contrast, LHR was closed to CO, DL, etc. They couldn't just fly 1 flight or whatever to LHR only if they landed at 11AM and left at 1PM on alternate Tuesdays. Even if LHR had free time because it was inconvenient, CO, DL, etc. couldn't use it. BA, VS, AA, and UA could fly as much as they wanted to the selected USA cities from LHR (as long as both countries approved the capacity). It was clearly an unfair advantage held by AA, UA, BA and VS over CO, DL, NW, BMI and US. Open Skies only removes that restriction, which includes allowing BA to fly LHR to any US city with as much capacity as they wish, as well as LGW to cities that were closed before entirely to London flights (like SLC, HNL, Portland, Nashville, etc.)

But I agree, CO's claim that they were somehow "owed" LHR slots was a lame assertion given the history of the treaty. If anything, the US government should have stepped in while UA was slowly selling off slots to foreign airlines, and asserted that UA, as "custodian" of LHR access, had a duty to maintain a set number of LHR slots in the national interest of the USA or lose their status as one of two anointed carriers under B2 to Continental, whom had been appointed a third carrier already (which allowed them to codeshare with VS). Since the US government failed to protect that access as UA sold off slots, it was never incumbent on the UK government to make up for our mistake. But hey, it couldn't hurt for CO to try to make that case? Never hurts to ask...  Wink
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
commavia
Posts: 9741
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:25 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
Everyone will. DL and AA and B6 are going to have to make tough decisions as well.

Which is incredible, seeing as Delta and JetBlue are the ones chiefly responsible for the delays. Those two airlines alone account for probably 75% of the additional flying at JFK over the last year. Not that there is anything wrong with adding capacity, of course: if it was up to me, this whole thing would be a moot point and no airline - Delta, JetBlue, AA, BA, or anyone else - would have to make a choice between serving the public and serving the slavemaster that is the federal government and its bureaucracy. But, alas, that's where we are, unfortunately.
 
RedChili
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:23 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:30 am

The basic reason that this problem exists in the first place is all the small airplanes flying around that everyone lauds as the fantastic "point-to-point fragmentation." The USA needs to halt this and go for bigger airplanes. The alternative is a planes full of passengers sitting five hours on the tarmac while waiting for clearance to take off.

Passengers should vote with their feet and refuse to fly 757s across the Atlantic. If they would do that, the congestion would be relieved very quickly.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
Currently BA flies 4 744s between JFK and LHR in a 1.5 hour span during "rush hour" but if everyone was limited before 8pm, and BA had to trim it to 2 flights (6:30pm and 7:15pm) and then 3 flights between 8pm and 9pm instead

BA may soon be forced to take up some of those A380 options.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 1934
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:37 am

I think BA have a strong position here, solely due to the fact that they have their own terminal at JFK, hald of which is taken up by UA. Now if they were to kick out UA where would they go........

Brian.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
 
theginge
Posts: 488
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:53 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:39 am

Surely the FAA should have seen this problem coming years ago and started to do something about it then?!?! I am sure that BA could use EWR if it couldn't get project Lauren into JFK.

Are there any other 757 Long range suitable airports in the New York area?
 
RIX
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2000 4:46 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:46 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
this problem exists in the first place is all the small airplanes flying around that everyone lauds as the fantastic "point-to-point fragmentation."

Would pre-deregulation "JFK is main USA international gateway, with tons of domestic connections" be better? For each 330/777 not even appearing in JFK we would have 747/380 plus 737/320/757 flying in and out JFK. Point-to-point allows air traffic to bypass hubs - JFK would be a sheer disaster if "fantastic point-to-point fragmentation" was not there.
 
Danny
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:57 am

FAA should clamp down on their domestic RJ abuse which is the main cause of congestion not on international flights. BA and UK will clearly see that as violation of Open Skies and might retaliate.
 
JerseyFlyer
Posts: 842
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 7:24 pm

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:02 pm

BA will now need some extra A380s for JFK!
 
ADXMatt
Posts: 513
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:07 pm

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:49 pm

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 5):
EWR is having similar capacity issues which are made worse by the lack of runways and CO's dominance. I think the 16:00-19:59 period should be slotted to 90 departures/hour with the 18:00-19:59 period closed to all departures except International and TRANSCON.

EWR would love 90 depts/hour. They have a hard time doing 45/hr.

IIRC JFK was slot controlled during the evening rush 3p-9p for years and only gave that up a year or two ago so B6 could expand. So why is it such a big deal to go back? As long as the reductions are equitable amongst all the carriers.
 
nycfly75
Posts: 643
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:38 pm

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:54 pm

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 19):
EWR would love 90 depts/hour. They have a hard time doing 45/hr.

I meant 90/hour (16:00-19:59) and the 18:00-19:59 period closed to all departures except International and TRANSCON for JFK.

[Edited 2007-10-31 06:57:10]

[Edited 2007-10-31 06:58:23]
 
User avatar
modernArt
Posts: 465
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 2:23 pm

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:19 pm

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 5):
I think the 16:00-19:59 period should be slotted to 90 departures/hour with the 18:00-19:59 period closed to all departures except International and TRANSCON.

What's special about transcons? Maybe restricted to aircraft seating at least 100 pax, but the west coast is not special when it comes to the overall picture at JFK
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:39 pm

Quoting ETStar (Reply 4):
.. and the others could remain at LGW, non?

I don't believe that's a valid comparison... EWR & JFK are equidistant from downtown Manhattan. LGW & LHR are not equidistant from Central London, non?
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
Aircellist
Posts: 1250
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:40 pm

Quoting RIX (Reply 14):
Point-to-point allows air traffic to bypass hubs - JFK would be a sheer disaster if "fantastic point-to-point fragmentation" was not there.

I am under the impression that JFK is on the verge of being a major disaster with point-to-point fragmentation yet...

It may be true that customers want freedom of choice among as much frequencies as possible, but this will inevitably lead to airports saturation. We are there. So, now the customers have a different choice: shuttle-like services to a huge number of cities with a huge number of small jets following each other for a loooong moment before take-off, or less flights with bigger planes and less congestion.
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15252
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:53 pm

Oh the irony after all US carriers got access to LHR but no slots Silly
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Baexecutive
Posts: 594
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:29 pm

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:54 pm

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 20):
I don't believe that's a valid comparison... EWR & JFK are equidistant from downtown Manhattan. LGW & LHR are not equidistant from Central London, non?

There isn't much in it to be honest,

Distance from London, LHR - 15 Miles*, LGW - 24 Miles*

Distance from Manhattan, JFK - 12 Miles*, EWR - 15 Miles*

(*source Wikipedia)

J
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:47 pm

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 23):
Distance from Manhattan, JFK - 12 Miles*, EWR - 15 Miles*

Irrelevant.... from various points in Manhattan, the airports are varying but close distances but accessibility is even (EWR can be much easier to get to) More importantly, from a business perspective, they're equidistant from Midtown and Downtown... in fact, I can see EWR from my office window Downtown... can't see JFK. And besides convenience and accessibility factors, although JFK is bigger and has more international airlines, there's no meaningful difference in terms of customs/passport control or "international status" between the two... EWR has several top-tier international carriers that operate very successfully there, including AF/KL, LH, LY, SAS, LX, BA, SQ, etc.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
continental180
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:39 pm

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:52 pm

We Have to relize something here though

EWR is really not a solution or option for that matter. It is overpowered by continental airlines, and has no room to expand, so by adding more flights to it daily, will only make it worse, and soon be pushing airlines out. Already we have overcrowded flights, at least a 30-50 minute delay daily, and just to many people for not a very large area. It would be nice to see some of the riff-raff & dirty parts of Newark to be demolished to expand Newark Liberty.

The best solution is to utilize other local airports such as tetersboro, LGA, and even Stewart Intl(which will become part of The PA of NY & NJ)...........

just a thought.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11419
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:55 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
BA could use 767s and fly as much as they want to ORD

I suspect if this happened the FAA would amend the ORD capacity control order to make foreign flag carriers subject to the same limitations as everyone else.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ncelhr
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:53 pm

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:59 pm

This whole talk of "congestion", "limited slots", "veto any increase of air traffic" and the like, smells of A380.

Might BA "sacrifice" frequency with LHR to JFK by using A380s & use the vacated slots for their Euro operations?

...and suddently what they said would never happen, happened...
 Big grin
 
nycfly75
Posts: 643
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:38 pm

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:31 pm

Quoting Continental180 (Reply 25):
We Have to relize something here though

EWR is really not a solution or option for that matter. It is overpowered by continental airlines, and has no room to expand, so by adding more flights to it daily, will only make it worse, and soon be pushing airlines out. Already we have overcrowded flights, at least a 30-50 minute delay daily, and just to many people for not a very large area. It would be nice to see some of the riff-raff & dirty parts of Newark to be demolished to expand Newark Liberty.

The best solution is to utilize other local airports such as tetersboro, LGA, and even Stewart Intl(which will become part of The PA of NY & NJ)...........

Agreed, moving flights to EWR is not the answer at all. I think for starters all charter/non-scheduled passenger traffic (North American, ATA, etc.) as well as low cost (Eurofly, Zoom, etc) international traffic should not be able to operate from JFK. ISP and SWF would be good alternatives.
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 3350
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:47 pm

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 2):
This might pose problems for the whole Open Skies process; the UK govt could argue, "well, if you're not going to allow more flights to JFK, we won't allow new flights from LHR".

My thoughts exactly. For all the decades of whining and wailing by U.S. airlines to gain access to Heathrow, here we are playing a frigging GAME even before Open Skies has a chance to be implemented. Aviation officials in the UK should say, 'Ooops! Looks like Heathrow just got congested all of a sudden. Sorry to all your U.S. carriers who wanted to come here!"

Stupid FAA.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13200
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:55 pm

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 23):
Distance from London, LHR - 15 Miles*, LGW - 24 Miles*

Distance from Manhattan, JFK - 12 Miles*, EWR - 15 Miles*

Those numbers are totally wrong, EWR is closer to every single point in Manhattan vs JFK. Check out Google Earth's Measurement feature if you don't believe me.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
goldorak
Posts: 1362
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:29 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:58 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
Passengers should vote with their feet and refuse to fly 757s across the Atlantic. If they would do that, the congestion would be relieved very quickly.

I couldn't agree more. It's incredible and ridiculous for the very busy NYC-PAR route that during the last weeks we had announcements for 5 or 6 new 757 flights : 1 more on L'avion, 2 DL, 1 or 2 BA and 1 Eos. This route can support B747 and A380 and is already served with plenty of frequencies and everybody comes suddenly with 757 !!! It's just a waste of money and oil. Although I can uderstand TAT'L flights with 757 to secondary cities but not betwen 2 big cities like NY and Paris or London.
 
avek00
Posts: 3157
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:13 pm

Sounds to me like BA is setting up the perfect pretext to getting the Open Skies deal scrapped...smart strategy.
Live life to the fullest.
 
flyingcat
Posts: 341
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 10:33 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:49 pm

To be fair lets inject a little sanity into this debate.

1. LHR is slot limited at all times of the day. Open skies is not changing the number of slots.
2. JFK limitations will only occur during certain hours.
3. BA is more than welcome to add a more flights outside the peak imes unless they work out a solution with their fellow alliance member. Something that US carriers have done at LHR

Bottom line BA can't stop open skies and Lauren will have to play by the rules just like everyone at LHR. What Af and KLM do with their slots is legal.

Besides BA always manages to get slots when everyone else would kill for them.
 
avek00
Posts: 3157
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:57 pm

Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 33):
3. BA is more than welcome to add a more flights outside the peak imes unless they work out a solution with their fellow alliance member. Something that US carriers have done at LHR

Big distinction here - CO/NW/DL are new operators into Heathrow whilst BA is an existing operator into JFK. It can be argued with a straight face that a *new* restriction upon BA's ability to operate flights to the EU from the largest gateway in the United States during commercially viable times to Europe is in contravention to the Open Skies agreement and policy which directs the ability to operate such service, and thus the EU should respond in kind with reciprocal restrictions on US carriers into the largest gateway into Europe -- which just happens to be London Heathrow.
Live life to the fullest.
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:03 pm

This doesn't surprise me at all. I always held that Open Skies was nothing but a windfall for the European airlines, and forced US airlines that didn't have Heathrow slots to make arrangements for slots.

So, surprise! Congested JFK, the apple of everyone's eye, is about to impose the same limitations, which will favor US carriers with domestic slots they can repurpose whilst the international carrier have to scramble to find slots at whatever terms they can manage.

I'm glad to see it, personally.

Steve
 
continental180
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:39 pm

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:24 am

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 29):

Yupp.....That is why you are seeing a decrease in airlines wanting to add more routes in newark because they dont have a chance due to Continental Airlines.

And also, this even shows that newark cant handle anymore traffic flow. Continental has announced that they will be utalizing there Cleveland hub(FINALLY) and adding over 60 flights to 50 new destinations becuase of the congestion flow in newark.

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 31):

few things with that statement. The Problem with JFK is its remote location. It is isolated from certain roads, and becuase of the EXTREME traffic conditions from that, it is not the best way to go.

Although, you have to relize

Newark is not the "easiest" as well, i mean I live in the Jersey Metro area, having newark being my domanit airport, to get to the city is a killer.......lincoln tunnel usally has at least 30-40 minute back up and same as Holland Tunnel as well

BUT, it really depends on the time of day, weather, and overall road constructions, such as when route 78 was backed up..........It took over 2 hours to get threw the trafffic..........

there is no easy and faster route to get into the city..........

BUT, with more options appearing and having PA of NY & NJ taking over airports and all, it is helping....

i hope to see some diversions over tetersboro....maybe even for Jetblue? you never no....

Hope Some of my Imput helps!

~~Tyler~~
 
Rivet42
Posts: 604
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:26 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:28 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
If anything, the US government should have stepped in while UA was slowly selling off slots to foreign airlines, and asserted that UA, as "custodian" of LHR access, had a duty to maintain a set number of LHR slots in the national interest of the USA or lose their status as one of two anointed carriers under B2 to Continental, whom had been appointed a third carrier already (which allowed them to codeshare with VS).

Well spotted, this is the real story behind the Great Slot Debate. Perhaps CO should direct any ire that they might be feeling towards UA for squandering those valuable access privileges at LHR, and benefiting financially from doing so.

Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 33):
1. LHR is slot limited at all times of the day. Open skies is not changing the number of slots.

That's not true, LHR is certainly not operating at capacity throughout the day, the 'constraint' comes (as has been discussed at great length before) in timing flights to suit commercial need. LHR has peaks just like any other airport, you only have be in T3 or T4 between 6am and 7am, or T1 between 5pm and 7pm to see the rush hours in full flow.

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 27):
Might BA "sacrifice" frequency with LHR to JFK by using A380s & use the vacated slots for their Euro operations?

Theoretically, except that the whole point of BA's strategy on the LHR-JFK route is frequency rather than capacity, as they have determined this is what the lucrative premium market wants. I'm not into speculation as it doesn't achieve anything, but I will point out that BA value the LHR-JFK route above all others in terms of yield, and they will certainly take steps to protect that yield, whatever the cost to other projects.

Riv'
I travel, therefore I am.
 
coa747
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:11 pm

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:05 am

I find it very amusing that our European friends are crying foul over JFK and how the US domestic carriers are hording slots with RJ's and the like. But somehow BA's domiance over Heathrow is in some way different. Now that the tables have turned and BA and AF and LH are left to fight it out for slots that Continental controls at Newark and Delta, jetBlue and American control at JFK. After all these decades of exclusion at Heathrow, I think it's great that BA is getting what it had coming. As they say pay back is a b&*#$
 
Flighty
Posts: 7677
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:38 am

The FAA can't just deny foreign access to JFK... that's preposterous. There needs to be a fair system to allocate JFK to the market. The only way to do this is start charging rent for slots. Otherwise, it's unequal competition. In the case of denying BA, it likely violates treaties.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 2):
....we won't allow new flights from LHR

I didn't read the entire thread but isnt LHR already heavily slot restricted anyway? If so, then the point of bringing that up is moot. Bad bargaining tool to even use if that is true.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
schipholjfk
Posts: 521
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:11 pm

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:17 am

The entire argument is so archaic. How about FAA upgrade our 1950s air traffic system and really allow competition exist at all airports instead of limiting flights, etc? Instead of finding a real solution like upgrading technology, FAA's response is to put a stop gap measure like limiting traffic. Is there anyone who really believes limiting traffic will do anything to resolve problems at JFK long term? For as long as I have been flying out of JFK, the rush hours has always been overloaded. The fact is it has become IMPOSSIBLE to build a new runway or an airport or even change the flight paths in the U.S. especially in any metropolitan area such as New York without the guaranteed 100 law suits to block any changes. All we do is complain in the U.S. and but when it is time to introduce "real change" we all yell, "Not in my backyard." Unless real changes are made, the congestion problem at JFK will always exists (only the degree of congestion will change) as long as planes take off and land in NY.
The fun of flying... love it !!!
 
avek00
Posts: 3157
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 38):
After all these decades of exclusion at Heathrow, I think it's great that BA is getting what it had coming.

Again, the lack of LHR access for non-B2 carriers and the possible restrictions on JFK are two very different matters.
Live life to the fullest.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:29 am

Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 41):
The fact is it has become IMPOSSIBLE to build a new runway or an airport or even change the flight paths in the U.S.

They tried this (Flight path changing) here at PHX. And I don't think it has been working for anyone involved.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
njgtr82
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:02 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting Continental180 (Reply 36):
Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 29):


Yupp.....That is why you are seeing a decrease in airlines wanting to add more routes in newark because they dont have a chance due to Continental Airlines.

What do you call Qatar, Jet Airways, Silverjet, L'Avion and the recent announcements by China Southern, Hainan, and EOS??
 
RIX
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2000 4:46 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:51 am

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 21):
Quoting RIX (Reply 14):
Point-to-point allows air traffic to bypass hubs - JFK would be a sheer disaster if "fantastic point-to-point fragmentation" was not there.

I am under the impression that JFK is on the verge of being a major disaster with point-to-point fragmentation yet...It may be true that customers want freedom of choice among as much frequencies as possible

- frequencies have nothing to do with what I was saying. Replying to this:

Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
The basic reason that this problem exists in the first place is all the small airplanes flying around that everyone lauds as the fantastic "point-to-point fragmentation."

I said that because of point-to-point JFK is much less loaded than it would be staying same major hub as it was not very long ago. Frequencies / aircraft size is a different issue - you may be right in what you are saying, but I don't see how it relates to my original post.
 
Rivet42
Posts: 604
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:26 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:42 am

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 38):
I think it's great that BA is getting what it had coming. As they say pay back is a b&*#$

What a particularly stupid thing to say.

The Bermuda II agreement (and Bermuda I before it) protects the interests of US and UK airlines alike, determining not only who can serve LHR to/from USA (2 US carriers, & 2 UK carriers), but also who can fly which routes. For example BA is not permitted to fly to LAS, as the rights for that route have been 'given' to VS, so each of the 4 'privileged' airlines flying USA to LHR benefit & suffer alike from route distribution. It's quite coincidental that BA's home airport just happens to be one of hte most important, and therefore most competitive, aviation hubs in the World, and as a result of that competitiveness BA is as constrained at LHR as any other airline, and certainly much more so than LH @ FRA, AF @ CDG, KL @ AMS or SK at CPH.

But none of this is relevent to the JFK slot issue, and that is a matter for the FAA to resolve in a way which is fair to all the existing operators at JFK regardless of who flies from there to LHR or anywhere else. I don't see why they would want to, or be able to, single out BA for extra attention, given that the new Open Skies agreement would make such an action open to legal contention.

Riv'
I travel, therefore I am.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11419
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:46 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 39):
The FAA can't just deny foreign access to JFK... that's preposterous

They're discriminating against carriers based on whether they're foreign or domestic at ORD... why not at JFK?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Flighty
Posts: 7677
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:12 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 47):
whether they're foreign or domestic at ORD... why not at JFK?

Is this normal, or is this something only the USA does?

Thing is, ORD and JFK are clogged by RJs *not* international carriers. Running 5-6 flights per day does NOT clog an airport. It's the 250 flight+ airlines that clog airports. It is they who need to be contained.
 
continental180
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:39 pm

RE: FAA May Block New BA Euro Flights To JFK

Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:49 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 40):
The FAA can't just deny foreign access to JFK... that's preposterous.

There Not, its just JFK has no more room and would most likely make more room for an US airline over a british. also, there is so many flights already to the uk from EWR and JFK already.........


not banning, its just they have to change how flights are being run at jfk, and guess that the 1st move is to stop more forign flights....

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: A330freak, Baidu [Spider], barney captain, cougar15, dennypayne, Dt91c, headlessmike, hoons90, n729pa, rutankrd, sassiciai, TheF15Ace, Thunderboltdrgn, UAL777UK and 240 guests