jamman
Posts: 475
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UK One Bag Rule To End?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:07 am

http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2204057,00.html

"Willie Walsh is optimistic that the "hassle factor" of the one bag limit may be ended by the government before Christmas."

...and there was much rejoicing.

[Edited 2007-11-02 04:08:59]
Phoning it in from a place with no phones.
 
StarGoldLHR
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:13 am

What actually scares me....

is it takes 3 hours to navigate LHR security screening now with 1 bag... whats it going to be like with more ?
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
APYu
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:16 am

Wont removing the "hassle factor" of the one bag limit result in a new "hassle Factor" of the longer queues at security with more than one bag to screen?

Are we confident UK Airports can cope and meet their 10 minutes to pass through security targets. Although queues have improved greatly they can still be 20 minutes plus even non rush hour.

Ive kind of got used to not having to fight for overhead bin space once on board - let the games recommence!!!!
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strudders
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:34 am

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 1):
What actually scares me....

is it takes 3 hours to navigate LHR security screening now with 1 bag... whats it going to be like with more ?

Wow you must have a huge bag for it to take that long!

It has not taken me three hours to navigate screening, just the usual 50 odd mins, unless of course there is an issue other than security which produces a bottle neck.

However if you do continue to have Three hour screenings, let me know when you are flying so I can avoid the airport at that time!  Smile

Best Regards

Struds
 
DLPMMM
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:03 pm

About time.

That takes care of one of the two reasons that I avoid UK airports whenever possible, especially for transit.

Now all they have to do is rescind the "green tax" on business class tickets and I might consider flying through the UK again.

Until then, I will use AMS/FRA/CDG for my Euro connections, even for UK final destinations.
 
wunala
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:16 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 4):
That takes care of one of the two reasons that I avoid UK airports whenever possible, especially for transit

And the TSA is soooooooooo much better? I think not.

I personally avoid the US except were necessary. Australia to Canada without the American transit shit will be a godsend.

Bring it on.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:31 pm

Quoting Wunala (Reply 5):
And the TSA is soooooooooo much better? I think not.

I personally avoid the US except were necessary. Australia to Canada without the American transit shit will be a godsend.

Bring it on.

OK Mr Snarky,

The points were that:

1. The UK is the only country in the world with a 1 carry-on rule, and I was applauding the abolishion of this stupid rule.

2. The UK has an exhorbitant "Green Tax" (which does nothing to improve the environment) on international long haul business class tickets, which drives me to connect in AMS and FRA instead of a UK airport (even when I can fly direct to my UK destination) (this also acts to actually increase pollution, as I connect to avoid the tax instead of flying the more direct route).

You seem to have some kind of chip on your shoulder. Bring on what? What does any of this have to do with TSA in the USA?
 
CoolGuy
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:37 pm

Quoting APYu (Reply 2):

is it takes 3 hours to navigate LHR security screening now with 1 bag... whats it going to be like with more ?

That's why they need "Clear"
 
Orion737
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:21 pm

I agree on one point, the security queues at major Uk airports are a joke. the size of the queue in Manchester terminal 1 nearly gave me a heart attack. Im surprised they manage to get people through in time to reach the gates. More staff and more screening equiupment needed.
 
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Ncfc99
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 8):
I agree on one point, the security queues at major Uk airports are a joke. the size of the queue in Manchester terminal 1 nearly gave me a heart attack. Im surprised they manage to get people through in time to reach the gates. More staff and more screening equiupment needed.

I have never had queues that I felt where very long whilst waiting at any airport in the UK.I have always got through T1 at Man in 20-30mins max, often quicker. As was mentioned above, getting bags into bins has been easy whilst this rule has been in effect.
What do some people need to take onboard that requires more than one bag anyway? We traveled to Australia with 2 children, only 2 carry ons and a handbag????????
 
A340600
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:53 pm

On the subject of UK airports I flew LGW-AMS Thursday and AMS-LGW Friday and can positvely say it was one of the easiest airport experiences of my life. 5 minutes wait for LGW security, walked straight up to passport control in AMS, had bag in hand 5 minutes later. Coming back, straight to check-in, straight through passport control, 5 minutes waiting for security. Landed at LGW and we were through with bags in hand in 10 minutes, home 20 minutes after chocks. Wow if only it was like that all the time!

I personally can't wait until they drop the rediculous 1 bag rule which stands to no credibility in global terms,

Sam
Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
 
kellmark
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:05 pm

Quoting Ncfc99 (Reply 9):
What do some people need to take onboard that requires more than one bag anyway? We traveled to Australia with 2 children, only 2 carry ons and a handbag????????

I guess that those of you that don't have to check bags THROUGH London in a connection have never experienced the joy of lost baggage. Note this last summer's debacle with thousands of lost bags sitting out on the tarmac in the rain. THAT is why it is necessary to take 2 bags on board.

It is absolutely ridiculous to watch women in a UK airport trying to stuff their purses into another bag or a businessman trying to fit his laptop bag into another bag, that was perfectly ok to carry when they traveled TO the UK. Also, as soon as they clear security, they take them right out again before they board as it is not an airline restriction at all but the UK BAA. It is simply a pure exercise in frustration with a bureaucratic rule that does absolutely nothing for the traveling public.

The rest of the world does just fine with two bags. It is just the UK BAA which is the problem. And they lose a lot of business as a result, as many people are avoiding the UK like the plague.

It is long past time for this silly rule to go.
 
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Ncfc99
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 11):
I guess that those of you that don't have to check bags THROUGH London in a connection have never experienced the joy of lost baggage

On the way to Australia, we checked our bags all the way to SYD, via LHR & HKG, however I have never lost a bag. How does losing a bag justify more carry on luggage?
 
DLPMMM
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting Ncfc99 (Reply 9):
What do some people need to take onboard that requires more than one bag anyway? We traveled to Australia with 2 children, only 2 carry ons and a handbag????????

I travel as a part of business, and have an aversion to being forced into to checking either my laptop computer with my business paperwork, or $20,000 worth of electronic components that I need for sales demonstrations.

Before my last trip that included the UK (6 weeks ago) I was forced by this stupid rule to buy an oversized wheeled carry-on brief case that barely fits into an overhead and weighs too much to comfortably maneuver in the plane aisle.

Does that answer your question?
 
iflyatldl
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:19 am

Wow, I wasn't aware of this rule and I'm traveling to the UK towards the end of the month. I'm connecting-ATL-CDG-LHR, so I'm guessing I can't take my bag and backpack on-just my backpack. And we were trying to avoid checking our bags to LHR. This won't bode well for some of my companions.  crazy 
Ah, Summer, Fenway Park, Boston Red Sox and Beer.....
 
kellmark
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:35 am

Quoting Ncfc99 (Reply 12):
On the way to Australia, we checked our bags all the way to SYD, via LHR & HKG, however I have never lost a bag. How does losing a bag justify more carry on luggage?

Well, if you haven't ever lost a bag, then you wouldn't understand and you are incredibly lucky. But I know plenty of people who have lost bags in LHR especially. Some never got them back. Others got them back three weeks later with the contents totally ruined by rain.

When you have to travel with expensive equipment that you don't want to lose or have damaged or stolen, you have no choice but to carry it on. as noted below:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 13):
I travel as a part of business, and have an aversion to being forced into to checking either my laptop computer with my business paperwork, or $20,000 worth of electronic components that I need for sales demonstrations.

I also often travel with expensive camera equipment and a laptop, plus just enough essentials to keep me going for a few days. And when some fool of a bureaucrat makes it impossible for someone to do that, then you have to find another way or location to travel through.

Quoting Iflyatldl (Reply 14):
Wow, I wasn't aware of this rule and I'm traveling to the UK towards the end of the month. I'm connecting-ATL-CDG-LHR, so I'm guessing I can't take my bag and backpack on-just my backpack. And we were trying to avoid checking our bags to LHR. This won't bode well for some of my companions.   

The beauty and silliness of this rule is that you can take TWO carryon bags to the UK, but only ONE bag leaving.
 
iflyatldl
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 15):
Quoting Iflyatldl (Reply 14):
Wow, I wasn't aware of this rule and I'm traveling to the UK towards the end of the month. I'm connecting-ATL-CDG-LHR, so I'm guessing I can't take my bag and backpack on-just my backpack. And we were trying to avoid checking our bags to LHR. This won't bode well for some of my companions.

The beauty and silliness of this rule is that you can take TWO carryon bags to the UK, but only ONE bag leaving.

Thank you for carifying that! We can deal with that!  Wink
Ah, Summer, Fenway Park, Boston Red Sox and Beer.....
 
kdm
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 6):
You seem to have some kind of chip on your shoulder.

I have the same chip on my shoulder. I am lucky that I have not had to go through the US for 3 years now. I need to fly to New York at the end of the month, I am trying very hard to get out of it as I will only be there for 2 days and I can't be bothered with the rude and arrogant immigration and security people. I love the US once I am inside but hate the arriving and leaving bit.

That said Sydney is really annoying, but the worse of the worse is New Zealand. It has taken my and my wife with two children 3 hours from touch down to exiting the airport. 45 minutes of that was looking for the stroller/buggy that Qantas forgot to put on the airplane at the gate. No doubt bad timing as far as the arrival goes, but amazingly all my family were traveling on NZ passports, hate to think how long it took true visitors to New Zealand. Again a nice Country once you are in but the arrival process needs some work.
 
strudders
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:13 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 6):
2. The UK has an exhorbitant "Green Tax" (which does nothing to improve the environment) on international long haul business class tickets, which drives me to connect in AMS and FRA instead of a UK airport (even when I can fly direct to my UK destination) (this also acts to actually increase pollution, as I connect to avoid the tax instead of flying the more direct route).

Not that I agree with the tax, however the UK is not the only country to charge passengers what relates to a tax for visiting or leaving. Do your tickets via AMS or FRA cost more? if no then economics would push you to these locations as well. If the answer is yes then I would question your motives?

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 11):
It is absolutely ridiculous to watch women in a UK airport trying to stuff their purses into another bag or a businessman trying to fit his laptop bag into another bag, that was perfectly ok to carry when they traveled TO the UK. Also, as soon as they clear security, they take them right out again before they board as it is not an airline restriction at all but the UK BAA. It is simply a pure exercise in frustration with a bureaucratic rule that does absolutely nothing for the traveling public

No it was as a result of a clear and highly publicised threat to UK and overseas passengers. The UK is currently installing new scanners that detect liquid explosives to ease the current restrictions. As far as we are concerned we will continue to protect all our passengers and staff from any threat. Please do not bitch and moan about security. The US after all is not the easiest place to visit at the moment.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/7066944.stm

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 15):
The beauty and silliness of this rule is that you can take TWO carryon bags to the UK, but only ONE bag leaving.

We trust other countries sending passengers to the UK have checked the bags and taken the correct necessary steps. However I ask this. If when getting on the plane to the UK knowing very well you can only have one carry-on, Why bring two??? Everybody should be aware that they will be required to check one in


Best regards

Struds
 
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Ncfc99
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:48 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 13):
travel as a part of business, and have an aversion to being forced into to checking either my laptop computer with my business paperwork, or $20,000 worth of electronic components that I need for sales demonstrations.

I understand taking expensive equipment onboard, I never check my camera bag and that is only about £1200 worth. However if it is to big or heavy, it needs to be checked regardless of cost. It just needs to be adequately insured.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 13):
Before my last trip that included the UK (6 weeks ago) I was forced by this stupid rule to buy an oversized wheeled carry-on brief case that barely fits into an overhead and weighs too much to comfortably maneuver in the plane aisle

But if it is that heavy, surely it should be checked?
 
Analog
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:47 pm

Quoting Strudders (Reply 18):

No it was as a result of a clear and highly publicised threat to UK and overseas passengers. The UK is currently installing new scanners that detect liquid explosives to ease the current restrictions. As far as we are concerned we will continue to protect all our passengers and staff from any threat. Please do not bitch and moan about security. The US after all is not the easiest place to visit at the moment.

How does forcing a woman to put her purse into her other carryon bag or a forcing a business traveler to put his/her laptop bag into a rollaboard make things more secure?

The idea of protecting "all [your] passengers and staff from any threat" is absurd. You can do a good job protecting against the worst threats, but any manager that thinks it's practical to protect everyone from any threat needs to learn about risk management.

Long security delays and high costs are a threat to peoples' lives and well-being. If you make 60 million people wait 31 minutes more in line (average LHR security wait), you're taking away about 3630 man-years, or about 48 complete lifetimes. The money spent on screening, etc. could also extend many lives if it were put into health care or medical research.

Security should be able to justify its taking of peoples' lives by being able to demonstrate a net gain in lives. If a screening change adds 15 minutes wait at LHR, BAA (or whoever) should be able to demonstrate that it will likely save more than 25 lives a year. Failure to do this kind of analysis would indicate that security is not about saving & improving lives, but about something else.

(BTW: My numbers may be off by a factor of two or so, but I'm emphasizing the principle, not the specifics of the numerical risk analysis.)
 
strudders
Posts: 83
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:12 pm

Quoting Analog (Reply 20):
How does forcing a woman to put her purse into her other carryon bag or a forcing a business traveler to put his/her laptop bag into a rollaboard make things more secure?

When me and colleagues travel from LHR we check in our bags and carry on the essentials. I dont think I wait any longer at LHR than anywhere else. SYD, BKK, SIN, MAN, I have experienced longer queue times at all these airports. What was required and still is for all passengers LEAVING the UK is to have one carry on bag due to the increased screening times and time spent in the scanners. Clear liquids and creams in Clear bags. It is that simple. That was what was decided by the UK Government,

Quoting Analog (Reply 20):
Long security delays and high costs are a threat to people's lives and well-being. If you make 60 million people wait 31 minutes more in line (average LHR security wait), you're taking away about 3630 man-years, or about 48 complete lifetimes. The money spent on screening, etc. could also extend many lives if it were put into health care or medical research.

Now times that by an extra bag and you increased the time further. New scanning equipment better able to detect the threat, as I have stated, is being installed. (48 scanners at LHR if my memory is correct)

Quoting Analog (Reply 20):
Security should be able to justify its taking of peoples' lives by being able to demonstrate a net gain in lives. If a screening change adds 15 minutes wait at LHR, BAA (or whoever) should be able to demonstrate that it will likely save more than 25 lives a year. Failure to do this kind of analysis would indicate that security is not about saving & improving lives, but about something else.

Why should the Government/BAA justify why it is taken an extra 15 mins at security?? I believe the demonstration of net security gain over the past 6 years is more aligned to how many attacks have been prevented NOT who has been caught at the gate and how long the screeners take. I for one do not mind 15 mins here, 15 mins there in queues knowing it MAY prevent or catch something. Lets face it why the rush?

Best Regards


Struds
 
maddog888
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:24 am

RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:26 pm

Quoting Kdm (Reply 17):
I love the US once I am inside but hate the arriving and leaving bit.

To be fair to the Immigration people, it seem to me that the airlines have to shoulder their share of the blame for the delays. I only know BOS well but there you have 4 european flights all landing at approximately the same 1300hrs then nothing until early evening. AA & BA both have flights from LHR leaving at the same time. I am sure the airlines have their own good internal reasons for doing this but just a little bit of spreading the flights would make the passenger experience at BOS soooo much better.

Quoting Strudders (Reply 18):
f when getting on the plane to the UK knowing very well you can only have one carry-on, Why bring two??? Everybody should be aware that they will be required to check one in

and you "should" know that there is a world of difference between what passengers should be aware of and what they are aware of. not everyone is as aviation minded as those of us on this forum.

Quoting Analog (Reply 20):
Security should be able to justify its taking of peoples' lives by being able to demonstrate a net gain in lives. If a screening change adds 15 minutes wait at LHR, BAA (or whoever) should be able to demonstrate that it will likely save more than 25 lives a year. Failure to do this kind of analysis would indicate that security is not about saving & improving lives, but about something else.

Of course it's about something else. As with all things political the only real thing that counts is public perception and the backlash and fallout when (note when not if) something goes wrong. Even if it doesn't help security they have to have something they can point to and say they were taking precautions.

// 'slightly-cynical world weary old man' rant off //

maddog
 
Analog
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:56 pm

Quoting Strudders (Reply 21):

Now times that by an extra bag and you increased the time further.

That's a nice false dichotomy: one bag or longer lines. If security lines are long, add more stations and screeners to shorten the lines. Every other country seems to be able to do it.

Quoting Strudders (Reply 21):
New scanning equipment better able to detect the threat, as I have stated, is being installed. (48 scanners at LHR if my memory is correct)

Great! Maybe the rest of the world can welcome LHR, et al. back to the realm of reasonable carry-on allowances?

Quoting Strudders (Reply 21):

Why should the Government/BAA justify why it is taken an extra 15 mins at security?? I believe the demonstration of net security gain over the past 6 years is more aligned to how many attacks have been prevented NOT who has been caught at the gate and how long the screeners take. I for one do not mind 15 mins here, 15 mins there in queues knowing it MAY prevent or catch something. Lets face it why the rush?

A government's taking of anything: money, property, liberty, time, etc., needs to be questioned and justified as reasonable. In this case the taking of time needs to be justified (quantitatively) in terms of a substantially lowered risk of death. The generic "it's for your security" mantra is the sign of a lazy bureaucracy that sees terrorist attacks in terms of a political risk far out of proportion to the actual risk to people's lives.

I do mind an extra 15 minutes here, another 15 minutes there. For frequent travelers those waits quickly add up to many days a year. It is reasonable and proper to sacrifice some security for convenience. More importantly, time is precious; forcing people to throw it away for a production of security theater is unconscionable.

How many attacks have been prevented and how many lives have been saved by the increased security? Obviously this cannot be done experimentally, but such an analysis should be done. It's foolish to blindly follow the mantra that more security is good. If we could dramatically shorten the lines, say to an average of 1 minute/passenger, at an expected cost of 1 more life per year lost to terrorism, we should do it.

If it's logical to just add security to combat a perceived threat without doing any risk analysis as to the increased cost in both time and money, it would be logical to not let anybody fly (infinite wait). That would eliminate any terrorist threat on aircraft and in the secure area of airports. (pardon the reductio ad absurdum)
 
strudders
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:39 pm

RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:06 pm

Quoting Analog (Reply 23):
That's a nice false dichotomy: one bag or longer lines. If security lines are long, add more stations and screeners to shorten the lines. Every other country seems to be able to do it.

I dont see that sorry, LHR for me personally, is not an Issue. I have more problems getting on my domestic flights back to base from MAN, or NCL than I do on a trip abroad. Same rules apply of course. Yes you could chuck more screeners and scanners, but that is not the issue here. The issue is the threat and the type of threat. OK, take two bags on board and all the hassle of people still having to empty their bags because they have more that 100 ml. The threat drives the Security precautions and in this country the threat means 1 carry on bag and no liquids more than 100 ml.

Quoting Analog (Reply 23):
Great! Maybe the rest of the world can welcome LHR, et al. back to the realm of reasonable carry-on allowances?

Well as the thread states yes.......

Quoting Analog (Reply 23):
The generic "it's for your security" mantra is the sign of a lazy bureaucracy that sees terrorist attacks in terms of a political risk far out of proportion to the actual risk to people's lives.

Thats quite an arrogant thing to say to a country that has been living with very tight security for years. All my life in fact, Perhaps we as a nation accept the fact we need to make small sacrifices in the name of security

Quoting Analog (Reply 23):
How many attacks have been prevented and how many lives have been saved by the increased security? Obviously this cannot be done experimentally, but such an analysis should be done. It's foolish to blindly follow the mantra that more security is good. If we could dramatically shorten the lines, say to an average of 1 minute/passenger, at an expected cost of 1 more life per year lost to terrorism, we should do it.

I just have to ask why you keep measuring time to life? If it fits your model, I would be willing to wait an extra 40 mins for no life were lost anywhere from gate borne terrorism. I simply do not accept your theory of "if I get to the airport 10 mins later, somehow I have gained something". Have you been on the Tube lately? caught a bus from Hatton Cross? whatever you feel you have gained not queuing at security can be lost by a strike, a busy period at the airport or Check in. If you do whizz through to the other side, what exactly are you going to be doing?

I think we agree to disagree.

Time is money but life is priceless.

Cheers

Very Best Regards

Struds
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting Strudders (Reply 24):

Thats quite an arrogant thing to say to a country that has been living with very tight security for years. All my life in fact, Perhaps we as a nation accept the fact we need to make small sacrifices in the name of security

How am I being arrogant? This has nothing to do with the country involved, as I'm not talking about specific threats. Security should be at a level that attenuates a threat (be it terrorism, killer rabbits, etc.) to an acceptable level; the level of security needs to be balanced against its cost, which includes people's time.

Quoting Maddog888 (Reply 22):
Of course it's about something else. As with all things political the only real thing that counts is public perception and the backlash and fallout when (note when not if) something goes wrong. Even if it doesn't help security they have to have something they can point to and say they were taking precautions.

A life lost to terrorism is worth dozens of times more than a life lost to disease, traffic accidents, street crime, etc. That's the math (in this case: those are the maths) that governments go by. Most governments would rather spend billions of dollars to prevent a few dozen terrorism related deaths than spend hundreds of millions of dollars to prevent hundreds of deaths from accidents, disease, etc. Why? Sheep (sorry, people) want to feel safe, not be safe.

Quoting Strudders (Reply 24):
Yes you could chuck more screeners and scanners, but that is not the issue here. The issue is the threat and the type of threat. OK, take two bags on board and all the hassle of people still having to empty their bags because they have more that 100 ml. The threat drives the Security precautions and in this country the threat means 1 carry on bag and no liquids more than 100 ml.

What threat makes it reasonable to allow only one bag? The only one that I can think of is the threat to BAA's (etc.) bottom line. If one bag per passenger can be screened, why not two?
 
APYu
Posts: 377
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:23 pm

RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:51 am

Quoting Analog (Reply 25):
What threat makes it reasonable to allow only one bag? The only one that I can think of is the threat to BAA's (etc.) bottom line. If one bag per passenger can be screened, why not two?

Scanning two bags takes twice as long and makes the queues longer.

Having lots of people standing in a queue BEFORE SECURITY is a big security threat as it creates a possible target and hence the push to avoid long queues building up. Having people queue for longer isnt an answer as it generates an additional target and bigger risk. We have all seen what can happen to big queues of unsecured people in other areas of the world

I think BAA felt a backlash shortly after the August 2006 incidents and the time it took them to recruit and ramp up their security equipment and staff, understandably so as you need to recruit, check and train the right people. They are in business to make money and some would say, before August 06 that their staffing levels were often optimistic to improve margin. Since then though they have recruited and they have invested and things have improved markedly but improvements can still be made.

But as someone who passed through these UK airports every week at the height of the problems last summer, the one thing that annoyed me was that BAA were quicker to put up posters advertising when the shops re-opened and the processes they put in place to ensure people could still buy before they fly, long before any improvements were made to the security process, queuing procedures and pre-screening. I guess the voice of angry shop renters can be louder than the voice of poor passengers and this comes back to that fact that BAA make more money from the shops than the airlines.

If passengers want to be the most important people in an airport then they should all boycott the shops. Buy your newspapers and sweets before you get to the airport, visit the real Harrods and not the pretend ones - and who really needs to buy caviar at an airport - use a Deli when you get home! You can buy cigarettes and spirits on board too - and give the crew some commission in doing so. Next time you are at Heathrow and a lovely lady in green asks your opinion on the airport - tell them! - and hey why even wait to be asked pop along to the customer service point and have a chat.
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
EI564
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 9:05 am

RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:15 am

Quoting APYu (Reply 26):
If passengers want to be the most important people in an airport then they should all boycott the shops.

As long as you realise that retail revenue subsidises airport passenger charges. So if the baa sold less retail, they'd presumably increase airport charges to compensate.

Quoting APYu (Reply 26):
Scanning two bags takes twice as long and makes the queues longer.

I'm not sure why people defend the current conditions so much since there seems to be active negotiations about changing them. Near everyone seems to realise that this situation is not ideal.

Theoretically the idea of just 1 bag per person is ok. The main problem is the lack of consistency i.e. that you can fly in with 2 bags, but leave with only 1. That you can buy some duty free on your way to London but you have to dispose of this second bag if you connect in London. That you have to stuff your handbag/laptop in your other bag, causing more delays.
 
APYu
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting EI564 (Reply 27):
As long as you realise that retail revenue subsidises airport passenger charges

It adds significantly to the huge profits BAA make - agreed. Doesnt the government cap the charges it can charge the airlines and the passengers as one of the conditions of the privatisation?

Im a strong believer in one bag for everyone from everywhere. Once you remove the choice from people they would get used to it. I got quite accustomed to checking a bag in once I had no choice. It avoids all those fights for overhead bin space and im sure makes the cabin environment safer. You can buy some very hard cases and boxes these days to check delicates in. Im afraid I am one of those passengers who would ask the crew if the hold was full if I see someone trying to fit a hugely oversized bag in an overhead or in the cupboard. The scowl from the passenger you get in response is excellent entertainment value when their case is left by the door and a luggage receipt returned in its place

IMO the effort should be made on making the airlines and handling agents improve their performance so people become less scared of it. Too many bags go missing as you can see from the bad experience some of the guys and gals have had here. I hope you all made suitable insurance claims against your travel insurance - so many people forget to do that and just take the ridiculous amount some airlines offer.
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EI564
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:42 pm

Quoting APYu (Reply 28):
Doesnt the government cap the charges it can charge the airlines and the passengers as one of the conditions of the privatisation?

Its regulated yes but the amount charged is based on the following (simplified) formula:
Airport Charge = Costs - Commercial Revenue - Profit.

I can't remember what the Profit margin is. Something like 5%, 6%. But clearly if you decrease the ability to make commercial revenue then the airport charges have to go up.

Quoting APYu (Reply 28):
IMO the effort should be made on making the airlines and handling agents improve their performance so people become less scared of it.

That's all fair points. Consistency and less lost luggage is the way to go. But it does look like the baa are going to be a bit more flexible regarding the 1 bag rule.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:53 pm

Quoting Ncfc99 (Reply 19):
I understand taking expensive equipment onboard, I never check my camera bag and that is only about £1200 worth. However if it is to big or heavy, it needs to be checked regardless of cost. It just needs to be adequately insured.

Normally the equpiment fits in a normal sized/weight briefcase and the laptop/paperwork goes into a normal lap-top case. The combined case for everything is within the carry-on size/weight constraints, but not terribly comfortable to manuver. The whole checking/adequately insured thing just doesn't float when you travel like me (26 flight legs, 15 countries in 25 days around the world).


I can afford to buy some clothes until my luggage finally catches up to me when they lose it (only once last trip), but without the computer and the equipment, I cannot make my meetings and give demonstrations. I don't spend more than 2 days in a country.
 
Analog
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:49 pm

Quoting APYu (Reply 26):
Scanning two bags takes twice as long and makes the queues longer.

So hire more screeners. By failing to do so LHR is creating a security risk (with the 31 minute average wait). Hire enough screeners to permit two carry on bags (i.e. 1+1: one carry-on and one "personal item") per passenger and to allow them get through security in a minimal amount of time (anything more than five minutes from getting in line to walking away is, IMO, too long).

BTW: I seriously doubt that allowing 1+1 carry-ons doubles screening time. I'd love to know the actual difference, but I'd wager that it's less than a 50% increase in time.

Quoting APYu (Reply 26):
If passengers want to be the most important people in an airport then they should all boycott the shops.

Passengers ARE the most important people in the airport. The airport exists to serve passengers (and sometimes non-self-loading cargo). Passengers pay for the airport and are right to demand the best travel experience (that may not always be possible, but the "best" is a legitimate goal). Airport and airline employees who claim otherwise should realize that they are being paid to serve the consumer. Unless security is paid for by general tax revenue (not passenger fees), the same applies to security workers.
 
APYu
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:57 pm

Quoting Analog (Reply 31):
BTW: I seriously doubt that allowing 1+1 carry-ons doubles screening time. I'd love to know the actual difference, but I'd wager that it's less than a 50% increase in time

Would the guy on the X Ray machine spend less time looking at the second item? Or roughly about the same? If the guy on the X ray machines takes, on average, 15 seconds to look at a bag, why would it take him anything other than 30 seconds, on average, to look at two?
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A340600
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:49 pm

Quoting Strudders (Reply 18):
The UK is currently installing new scanners that detect liquid explosives to ease the current restrictions. As far as we are concerned we will continue to protect all our passengers and staff from any threat. Please do not bitch and moan about security

But how exactly does only scanning one of our bags protect us anymore than two, you're undermining the quality of the job you do and it is worrying for people to be told that.

Quoting Analog (Reply 23):
That's a nice false dichotomy: one bag or longer lines. If security lines are long, add more stations and screeners to shorten the lines. Every other country seems to be able to do it.

 checkmark 

Quoting Strudders (Reply 24):
Thats quite an arrogant thing to say to a country that has been living with very tight security for years. All my life in fact, Perhaps we as a nation accept the fact we need to make small sacrifices in the name of security

We don't accept it though. It's inconsistent, inconvenient and quite frankly annoying all the "for your security" bla that comes out of the UK Airports mouths.

Quoting APYu (Reply 26):
Scanning two bags takes twice as long and makes the queues longer.

Hiring double the staff halves the waiting time, perhaps BAA should consider investing more in its staff with that extra revenue from another costa coffee shoved in a corner somewhere.

Quoting APYu (Reply 28):
Im a strong believer in one bag for everyone from everywhere.

Whilst this may be fine for your average joe leisure traveller it is a useless rule for the airlines bread and butter- premium travellers. If a businessman is in J and needs equipment to continue his work through his journey, much the point of Business Class then 2 bags is of key importance. Why can't the UK at least ease it and allow premium travellers two cary-on bags?
Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
 
strudders
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:37 pm

Quoting A340600 (Reply 33):
But how exactly does only scanning one of our bags protect us anymore than two, you're undermining the quality of the job you do and it is worrying for people to be told that.

Because the threat, (liquids, creams, other bomb making components) were more difficult to find with the current technology. The rules were put in place precisely so the staff scanning the bags could have more time to view the carry on items from land side.

Answer this question, why was single bag carry on introduced? it was nothing to do with BAA, it was as a result of a real terrorist threat. It also effects all other airports UK wide.

So the question is not how long it takes to screen a bag, but how long does it take to screen for the specific threat in the UK. It takes too long, we all agree on that, but its not because we have ditched one carry on bag, it because we have to have all our liquids and creams in clear bags, (and the hundreds of people who forget to do this) its because we have to remove our shoes, its because we have to have our belts removed and its the extra pat downs in the terminal. Its the complete bottle neck this creates in a terminal not designed or built for this.

One example, I have stood at the top of the stairs to departures at NCL and queued for 40-50 mins before now. not becuase the six screeners where lazy, it becuase of people were taking water, pop, toothpaste through. Its the whole mess caused by the percived threat.

LHR is not the best airport by any stretch, but as I have said previously, it not the worst.

Quoting A340600 (Reply 33):
We don't accept it though. It's inconsistent, inconvenient and quite frankly annoying all the "for your security" bla that comes out of the UK Airports mouths.

You may not accept it but I do, I am not expecting everybody to be happy about it, why should they, however we the flying public do not make the rules, so please feel free to express your frustration with the 12 suspects awaiting trial.

I hope that the new scanners, along with more defined rules will speed everybody through. However I just dont think that is going to happen somehow.

Best Regards

Struds
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:59 pm

None of this is new. LHR has been a mess from when I first transited through there over 5 years ago. 2 machines to connect through T3 then, the same now. So instead of spending the past, (post 9/11) 5 years improving staffing levels, training and getting more machines, they build shops. This way, the transit passenger can carry 1 bag in, but as many bags as they can carry out of duty free.

The last time I went through, only 1 machine was staffed and the cue was over 2 hours. BAA staff gave a beauty excuse; "the long lines are proof that we're serious about security".

Wow...funniest line ever. The perceived threats may have started the mess but the asinine implementation of absurd rules to cover up their disdain of the passenger is what is continuing the mess.

Last time, after I finally got through, I quizzed some of the folks I got to know while standing in line. Almost half of them had banned liquids/pastes/gels get through security. Nice try, folks...
What the...?
 
APYu
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:09 pm

Quoting A340600 (Reply 33):
Whilst this may be fine for your average joe leisure traveller it is a useless rule for the airlines bread and butter- premium travellers. If a businessman is in J and needs equipment to continue his work through his journey, much the point of Business Class then 2 bags is of key importance. Why can't the UK at least ease it and allow premium travellers two cary-on bags?

As a bread and butter premium traveller I feel fully justified in that statement. Indeed as a BA Gold cardholder I am one who had to become very familiar with the new approach quickly and frequently and the epiphany came when I realised I had to take my head out of my own ass and realise that my time was no more important than anyone elses and I could quite easily wait for checked in luggage and the experience wouldnt kill me.
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DLPMMM
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:50 pm

Quoting Strudders (Reply 21):
Now times that by an extra bag and you increased the time further. New scanning equipment better able to detect the threat, as I have stated, is being installed. (48 scanners at LHR if my memory is correct)



Quoting APYu (Reply 36):
As a bread and butter premium traveller I feel fully justified in that statement. Indeed as a BA Gold cardholder I am one who had to become very familiar with the new approach quickly and frequently and the epiphany came when I realised I had to take my head out of my own ass and realise that my time was no more important than anyone elses and I could quite easily wait for checked in luggage and the experience wouldnt kill me.

And as a premium traveller who is top tier in 2 of the three major alliances (elite plus and *Gold) who travels long haul I can tell you that BAA and the UK seem to be the only places where more than 1 carry-on causes a serious problem (and the liquids have absolutely nothing to do with the entire issue, as the carry-on liquids ban is pretty much world-wide).

Futrhermore, I check baggage as well (hard to travel for a month straight without doing so), so I don't know what your statement about your head being up your own ass has to do with anything. This is all about a stupid rule imposed by BAA because they were not prepared/able/too cheap to provide the services that are required in running international airports.

If this was truely a security issue as you proclaim, then BAA and the UK government would not be about to rescind it, now would they? Other countries would have also adopted this stupid rule if it really was a security matter.
 
APYu
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:09 pm

The UK, like the US is at the top of certain extremists Hitlists for terrorism and as such as introduced increased security procedures. We did the one bag thing, the US did the fingerprint, photo thing, passnger list thing - both moves to combat the increased terrorism our nations face. Most of the other countries you visit probably have much less of a threat and hence you enjoy a simpler journey between the two

Most business travellers prefer the two bag rule to avoid checking a bag in. As did I, till I got my head out of my ass as my post implies, and realised I could check a bag in without trauma. Checking in two bags still provides me with sufficient hand luggage, laptop, batteries, paperwork etc. to keep busy on the longest of journeys. Its a while since I felt the need to pack two carry ons ful of inflight reading material or work for that matter

Security and indeed any rules change all the time due to the evolving world we live in, so BAA, the UK Government and indeed your own Government are free to impose and relax rules as they wish. If rules didnt change the americans would still not be allowed booze right?
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strudders
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:15 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 37):
If this was truely a security issue as you proclaim, then BAA and the UK government would not be about to rescind it, now would they? Other countries would have also adopted this stupid rule if it really was a security matter.

Please see http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleases...&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en


This outlines the current EU restrictions and rules for Liquids

"The new rules apply to all liquids, as present-day screening equipment cannot distinguish one type from another sufficiently fast to be used at airports. However passengers are permitted to take quantities too small to make dangerous explosives (in containers not exceeding 100 millilitres in capacity) past screening points."

As stated before, new screening equipment (48) is being installed in LHR hence the review and possible change in carry on baggage etc.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 37):
This is all about a stupid rule imposed by BAA because they were not prepared/able/too cheap to provide the services that are required in running international airports.

Please see http://www.dft.gov.uk/transportforyou/airtravel/airportsecurity/

The outlines the UK Governments rules not BAA's regarding one carry on item.

As stated many times this is a Government restriction not a BAA or any other airport authority rule. They are told what to do and they follow.


Best Regards

Struds
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:26 pm

Ok but who is responsible for implementing the security at LHR? BAA, isn't it? If they spent more effort on security than shopping, say by installing a few more machines and training some personnel, LHR wouldn't be the transit nightmare it currently is.

The 2 bag rule was a hasty, knee jerk reaction so there would be the appearance of security improvements. Best part, it was cheap...as opposed to personnel and x-ray machines.

The problems are endemic. They didn't just magically appear with this latest crisis. There will always be security problems at airports. What would be nice if the authorities actually gave enough of a rats' ass to implement some proper procedures instead of worrying more about how to flog cases of overprices smokes.
What the...?
 
DLPMMM
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:52 pm

Quoting Strudders (Reply 39):
"The new rules apply to all liquids, as present-day screening equipment cannot distinguish one type from another sufficiently fast to be used at airports. However passengers are permitted to take quantities too small to make dangerous explosives (in containers not exceeding 100 millilitres in capacity) past screening points."

As I said before, the liquids rule has nothing to do with the 1 bag rule. I do not know why you keep bringing up the liquids rule.

Quoting Strudders (Reply 39):
As stated before, new screening equipment (48) is being installed in LHR hence the review and possible change in carry on baggage etc.

If the lack of equipment at LHR is really the problem, then why not have the 1 bag rule only at LHR instead of all the UK airports?

Answer: Because BAA did not want to spend the money to properly support the necessary screening across the entire system.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 40):
Ok but who is responsible for implementing the security at LHR? BAA, isn't it? If they spent more effort on security than shopping, say by installing a few more machines and training some personnel, LHR wouldn't be the transit nightmare it currently is.

The 2 bag rule was a hasty, knee jerk reaction so there would be the appearance of security improvements. Best part, it was cheap...as opposed to personnel and x-ray machines.

The problems are endemic. They didn't just magically appear with this latest crisis. There will always be security problems at airports. What would be nice if the authorities actually gave enough of a rats' ass to implement some proper procedures instead of worrying more about how to flog cases of overprices smokes.

 checkmark 

Quoting Strudders (Reply 39):
The outlines the UK Governments rules not BAA's regarding one carry on item.

And who do you think requested these rule changes? (Hint: BAA)

Quoting APYu (Reply 38):
The UK, like the US is at the top of certain extremists Hitlists for terrorism and as such as introduced increased security procedures. We did the one bag thing, the US did the fingerprint, photo thing, passnger list thing - both moves to combat the increased terrorism our nations face. Most of the other countries you visit probably have much less of a threat and hence you enjoy a simpler journey between the two

Fingerprints and photos are about immigration and admission to the USA, not security in the air. A red herring by you.

I would not agree that most of the countries I visit have much less of a threat. Israel, India, Thailand, Indonisia, and others all have ongoing threats or insurgencies that are worse than those in the USA or UK, and they all have a 2 bag standard for carry-ons.

Why can't you just admit that the reason for the 1 bag limit has been because BAA has done a poor and miserly job of running the major UK airports?
 
APYu
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:25 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 41):
Why can't you just admit that the reason for the 1 bag limit has been because BAA has done a poor and miserly job of running the major UK airports?

Because they do a great job running it - they make millions doin it.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 41):
Fingerprints and photos are about immigration and admission to the USA, not security in the air. A red herring by you

Terror threats come from all sides. I didnt mention in the air specifically. Our Governments obviously thought the threat was higher on different aspects of the experience. It was for example the UK that had the terrorists plan to blow up 12 planes from UK Airports I believe. Perhaps had that threat been from US soil the approach may be reversed. America obviously chose border defences in response to the particular attack it faced a few years previously.

The reason for the one bag rule is because the Government uncoverd a terrorist plot to blow up 12 planes from UK airports last year. If you think what could have happened - giving up a carry on is a small price to pay
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strudders
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:31 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 41):
As I said before, the liquids rule has nothing to do with the 1 bag rule. I do not know why you keep bringing up the liquids rule.

OK then why was it introduced? or did BAA (along with every other airport operator) in the UK decide, OK we will stop people carrying on 2 bags. BAA do not (as yet) have that much power.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 41):
If the lack of equipment at LHR is really the problem, then why not have the 1 bag rule only at LHR instead of all the UK airports?

Because BAA do not manage all the other airports....... The other operators will have to foot the bill in due course or continue with diligent screening.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 41):
Answer: Because BAA did not want to spend the money to properly support the necessary screening across the entire system.

No your probably right, however the technology was not available. It is now and is being installed.
If they had decided to knock a few shops down to increase the security screening area then we would also be moaning about that, even if it was possible to do so.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 41):
And who do you think requested these rule changes? (Hint: BAA)

Your again assuming BAA speaks all UK operators, which I can assure you they do not.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 41):
Why can't you just admit that the reason for the 1 bag limit has been because BAA has done a poor and miserly job of running the major UK airports?

So you are saying that BAA (and all other UK operators) can't manage 2 carry on bags? or is it because...

Quoting Strudders (Reply 34):
So the question is not how long it takes to screen a bag, but how long does it take to screen for the specific threat in the UK. It takes too long, we all agree on that, but its not because we have ditched one carry on bag, it because we have to have all our liquids and creams in clear bags, (and the hundreds of people who forget to do this) its because we have to remove our shoes, its because we have to have our belts removed and its the extra pat downs in the terminal. Its the complete bottle neck this creates in a terminal not designed or built for this.

BAA are not the greatest operator in the world, I know I have to work with them. However on this occasion there hands were tied to a degree. It is not easy flying out of the UK at present granted.

However looking at the latest figures, everybody seems to be getting on with it.

Best Regards


Struds
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
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RE: UK One Bag Rule To End?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:40 pm

Quoting APYu (Reply 42):
Because they do a great job running it

They do a great job running a shopping mall - they do an abysmal job running an airport. I don't know why the UK government don't just break up the BAA monopoly and sell of LGW and STN to other people, by force if necessary - for the national good.

Quoting APYu (Reply 26):
Scanning two bags takes twice as long and makes the queues longer.

And yet every airport in the known universe can manage it perfectly well, liquids ban and all - without any problem at all. Only crap useless BAA can't cope.

Quoting APYu (Reply 32):
Would the guy on the X Ray machine spend less time looking at the second item? Or roughly about the same? If the guy on the X ray machines takes, on average, 15 seconds to look at a bag, why would it take him anything other than 30 seconds, on average, to look at two?

If they look at any at all - in most cases the "screeners" are intent on chatting to their mates (of whom there are always at least 4 hanging around the screen, and not manning the other bloody checkpoints !).

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 37):
And as a premium traveller who is top tier in 2 of the three major alliances (elite plus and *Gold) who travels long haul I can tell you that BAA and the UK seem to be the only places where more than 1 carry-on causes a serious problem (and the liquids have absolutely nothing to do with the entire issue, as the carry-on liquids ban is pretty much world-wide).

I don't think France even does the liquids thing any more - I know they don't at NCE, they haven't bothered with it for months. Come to think of it, neither did Frankfurt, and El Al security didn't bother asking about liquids either - although they did very kindly vacuum the toast crumbs out of my laptop keyboard - talk about valet service  Smile

Quoting APYu (Reply 38):
As did I, till I got my head out of my ass as my post implies, and realised I could check a bag in without trauma.

There speaks a man who doesn't have to transit LHR en route to somewhere else, and suffer the inevitable "Schrodinger's Luggage" event at the other end, when you realise that the LHR baggage monster has eaten your checked bag. LHR's rules are stupid and unnecessary and just another way for BAA to make obscene amounts of money.
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