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fxramper
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Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:29 am

Since 2000, pilot pay has jumped nearly 50 percent, compared with an increase of 4 percent at rival American.

 boggled 

Best of luck to them.

article


Comments welcome.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:04 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 1):
Damn, Southwest Pilots earn an average of $166,000 bucks, that seems a little overstated. I would think that is for pilots atleast in their 10th year or so who care Captains. Question is how long can WN sustain this?

In case you missed or just chose to omit the fact, they are also the most productive pilots in the US industry. Please get your facts straight!

BTW, the figure quoted is the average of ALL pilots!
Fly fast, live slow
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:10 am

Damn, Southwest Pilots earn an average of $166,000 bucks, that seems a little overstated. I would think that is for pilots atleast in their 10th year or so who care Captains. Question is how long can WN sustain this?  scratchchin 
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:23 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 2):
they are also the most productive pilots in the US industry. Please get your facts straight!

where did I say anything to oppose that statement? I was just shocked that the "average" pay is that high, and BTW what is defined as a "productive pilot"? I know that WN is one of the most profitable airlines in the world.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:16 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 3):
where did I say anything to oppose that statement? I was just shocked that the "average" pay is that high, and BTW what is defined as a "productive pilot"? I know that WN is one of the most profitable airlines in the world.

My point was you chose to omit the fact the article also mentioned they were the "most productive" pilots. It's called omission. Productivity can be defined in several ways. If you look at revenue/employee that's one, the other is average block hours/month. In either case, they're the most productive.

Sorry to hear you're "shocked". What did you expect?
Fly fast, live slow
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:26 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 4):
My point was you chose to omit the fact the article also mentioned they were the "most productive" pilots. It's called omission. Productivity can be defined in several ways. If you look at revenue/employee that's one, the other is average block hours/month. In either case, they're the most productive.

Sorry to hear you're "shocked". What did you expect?

Are you a WN driver? Relax buddy, i don't think he was trying to take anything away from Southwest pilots, if anything I think he was complimenting. WN holding the bar benefits all of us.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 5):
Southwest pilots, if anything I think he was complimenting. WN holding the bar benefits all of us.

My point exactly, WN should be praised for the way they've been profitable since the beginning, the only grudge I hold against them is that they dont seem to be hiring near my home airport  duck 
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
N1120A
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 5):

Are you a WN driver?

He flies 747s for Singapore Air
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Flighty
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:29 am

How many hours do they fly a month? Is it more than legacies? Is it more than airlines such as Republic or Mesa? Those are also airlines that fly advanced glass cockpit twinjets. What are we talking here, 100 hrs?
 
atrude777
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:33 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
How many hours do they fly a month? Is it more than legacies? Is it more than airlines such as Republic or Mesa? Those are also airlines that fly advanced glass cockpit twinjets. What are we talking here, 100 hrs?

They are guaranteed minimum 78 hours in a line, and 79 on reserve.

So I'd imagine it goes higher then 100 when they pick up trips or do trades and such.

Keep in mind, that they go by trips, which equal 55 minutes, its not a true Hour.

a WN PIlot can explain more here...

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
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fxramper
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 2):
BTW, the figure quoted is the average of ALL pilots!

In my introduction, I never stated it wasn't an average - to clarify.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 4):
"most productive" pilots

This is my choice. At AMR, pilots would fly more if asked.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 9):
goes higher then 100

I know several pilots at WN very well. Doug Webb flys out of HOU as a Sr. Captain and often goes over 100 hrs per bid.

Good luck to WN.
 
kstatepilot
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:54 am

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 9):

So I'd imagine it goes higher then 100

You can't fly more than 100 hours per month as per the FAR's
8 hours between rest
30 hours per week
100 hours per month
1000 hours per year
 
Tornado82
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 4):
the other is average block hours/month. In either case, they're the most productive.

Then why is it that NWA's narrowbody pilots, and most notably several RJ hopper airlines (Mesa specifically) are running into problems where their pilots bump into the 100/month threshhold on a near monthly basis? They would have to be by far the most productive at this point and moreso than WN. As a matter of fact so productive that it is killing the operations of the respective airlines by the time you get beyond the 20th of the month.
 
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fxramper
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 12):
100/month threshhold on a near monthly basis?

Isn't it per bid? A pilot can protect his schedule and do a fly over on a beginning month; in theory this would put him, potentially, over 100 hrs in a calendar month.


 twocents 

PS. Threshold has one h.

 rotfl 
 
Tornado82
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting FXramper (Reply 13):
Isn't it per bid?

If you spread your flying out over 2 calendar months, then yes... but then if you're doing that you're NOT hitting 100 per calendar month.

The problem at places like Mesa is that the pilots are being overflown to the point that they run into the Federally mandated 100 per month limit. And it happens month after month after month. If that ain't "productive" from an hours flown per month basis, then I don't know what is. When the Feds said "No more!" there is no more.
 
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fxramper
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 14):
When the Feds said "No more!" there is no more.

I know it happens. I've chatted with my uncle about it. Unless there is an audit performed, it will and does continue to happen.

AA got slammed a few years ago on it.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:18 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 12):
They would have to be by far the most productive at this point and moreso than WN. As a matter of fact so productive that it is killing the operations of the respective airlines by the time you get beyond the 20th of the month.

But how is that productive? An airline can't do all it's flying for the month by the 20th. At WN, SWALPA and the company have agreed on a way of keeping staffing levels at a reasonable level and having pilots fly the max possible. That's productivity. The problem at NW and Meas isn't max hours it's much more complicated than that. At NW it was the physical demands of the scheduling, for example minimum layovers, fatiguing pairings that caused sick leave to sky rocket. Mesa has turnover problems.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 13):
Isn't it per bid? A pilot can protect his schedule and do a fly over on a beginning month; in theory this would put him, potentially, over 100 hrs in a calendar month.

Under the FARS it's monthly. Remember there are flying hours and credit hours. A pilot can have over 100 credit hours in a month but be below 100 flying hours.
Fly fast, live slow
 
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fxramper
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 16):
Under the FARS it's monthly. Remember there are flying hours and credit hours. A pilot can have over 100 credit hours in a month but be below 100 flying hours.

I stand corrected. There are a lot of rules, and I'm a lowly ramp manager with a ppl, i-rating, and m/e rating - you are correct Mr SQ 744.

 yes 

Back on topic a bit - What does WN pilots union hope to accomplish?

Curious?
 
mandala499
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:49 am

Isn't WN's pilot pay scheme also have a big component that is based on company profitability? I was told their salaries aren not big, but they win big in the profit sharing. Not sure how that changed in the 94 talks, and not sure how it's going to change this time round, coz it's in everyone's interest to make sure their people are paid well but the company remain profitable.

The concern was raised with Kelleher's retirement on how this was going to continue and how the "spirit" was going to continue.

At least both sides are still committed to that but with increasing cost pressures from fuel, it's gonna be hard on both sides.

That 166k USD p.a. is just salary or including productivity and profit sharing bonuses?

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:54 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 5):

Are you a WN driver?

He flies 747s for Singapore Air

Well, he seems awfully 'invested' in WN.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:05 pm

WN has some major cost/revenue issues creeping up on them and this is obviously one of them so it'll be very interesting to see how this proceeds. It sounds like no one is in a real hurry though.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
asuflyer05
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:14 pm

Quoting FXramper (Reply 13):
Isn't it per bid? A pilot can protect his schedule and do a fly over on a beginning month; in theory this would put him, potentially, over 100 hrs in a calendar month.

It depends on the contract. There are a number of ways a pilot can get paid for over 100 hours per month.

1.) Some airlines have duty and trip rigs which pay pilots based on credit hours not just FAA block hours. So there is potential for a pilot to be paid for over 100 hours per month.

2.) Pilot is assigned trip with pay protection, flight cancels. Later in the month the pilot picks up open time on days off. So he gets paid for the flight that canceled and the open time trip.

3.) Also I do believe dead heading only counts against the 14 hour duty day, but not the 8 hour flying limit.
 
SPREE34
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:25 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
How many hours do they fly a month?

I'm curious. How many takeoffs and landings do WN drivers make in a month vs others.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 10):
At AMR, pilots would fly more if asked.

I'd bet a beer tab the AMR pilots wouldn't do anything if asked right now.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
Flighty
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:37 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 22):

I'm curious. How many takeoffs and landings do WN drivers make in a month vs others.

Oh, probably more than most mainline pilots. But, probably not as many as RJ pilots. WN has a shorter stage length than other mainline airlines, which means more flights per aircraft per day.

If we say WN has an average stage length of 700 miles / 2 hrs block time, we can say a WN pilot will make 50 departures in 100 hrs of flying. Or more likely, 40 departures in 80 hours.

Another airline like UA might have a 767 pilot fly 80 hours at an average stage length of 2,000 mi or 5 hours. This would give 16 departures per month.

But again, it varies and I imagine 1 pilot could do 60-70 departures in a month at WN if he or she planned that many short-hop flights of 1 hr or so scheduled time.

[Edited 2007-11-05 09:38:45]
 
flyby519
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:50 pm

Heres a chart from the MIT Airline Data Project that depicts block hours flown by major/legacy/lcc carrier pilots:

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/D...onthly%20Block%20Hours%20Flown.htm

[Edited 2007-11-05 09:51:18]
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Tugger
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:26 pm

Remember that Southwest pilots also do more things like checking the cabin than many pilot groups and this does not affect their flight hours. This is especially important when you consider the higher number of flight turns SWA does in any given day. Higher productivity does not just mean hours behind the stick.

Tug
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
xjet
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:28 pm

Quoting Flyby519 (Reply 24):
Heres a chart from the MIT Airline Data Project that depicts block hours flown by major/legacy/lcc carrier pilots:

I am sure that doesn't take a lot of things into account. Things like reserve pilots and vacation time probably weren't figured in. I know the average schedule at XE is worth 83 hours per bid period, which is usually 30 days. But we have a lot of lines that are over 90 hours, and then others that are right at the guarantee pay of 75.

I wouldn't have any trouble believing that WN pilots are the most productive. They fly upwards of 6 legs per day with minimum sit time at airports between flights. They don't have the 3 hour sits between banks like the legacies.
 
N77014
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:35 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
WN has some major cost/revenue issues creeping up on them and this is obviously one of them so it'll be very interesting to see how this proceeds. It sounds like no one is in a real hurry though.

They are also the best capitalized and enjoy the highest credit rating of any airline in the market today. They are well prepared to make changes to the business model to keep profitable.

The challenge all airlines face when talking to pilots is, what does an $80,000 a year pilot do more than a $60,000 a year one to justify the cost?
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...
 
DTWAGENT
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:27 pm

Questions here? Are the F/A's in a union? If so/or not so when are they going to be at the table to bargin for more money. I know they get paid by per trip and a trip is anything 245 miles or more. The F/A's have to be a low pay group then the pilots. And they do more to turn that aircraft around in 25 to 30 minutes then the pilots do...

Chuck
 
flyf15
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:05 pm

Its not that Southwest has gone beyond the majors, its that the majors all took huge hits. Huge hits that Southwest didn't have to take because of their ability to run a good airline that treats both passengers and employees well while still making a profit. Southwest is one of the better jobs out there for pilots and the pay goes along with that.

Put your pilots through something like what happened at Northwest and pay them like that... and Southwest might end up being a complete trainwreck of an airline like Northwest also.

Southwest does things right.


Also, American is currently in negotiations to bring their pay up 53%... more in line with Southwest levels. Southwest pilots are also still paid less than those at Abex, UPS, and FedEx.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:07 pm

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 29):
its that the majors all took huge hits

And WN never had to deal with regulation
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
N1120A
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 12):
As a matter of fact so productive that it is killing the operations of the respective airlines by the time you get beyond the 20th of the month

That isn't efficient then, now is it?

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 18):
I was told their salaries aren not big, but they win big in the profit sharing.

After the major cuts at the legacy carriers, WN's base salaries jumped up toward the top of the industry. Profit sharing adds to that.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
WN has some major cost/revenue issues creeping up

Not particularly. WN is at the head of the US industry in domestic RASM and has successfully increased fares at a rate higher than any cost increases.

Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 28):
Are the F/A's in a union?

Yes, WN's Flight Attendants are unionized. In fact, WN is the most unionized airline in the US

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 30):

And WN never had to deal with regulation

Are you talking about the regulation that ended in 1978? If so, then WN absolutely did have to deal with it, as they were founded at the beginning of the decade. They also had to fight 2 major court battles.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
atrude777
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RE: Southwest Pilot Talks Proceed Quietly.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:07 am

Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 28):
I know they get paid by per trip and a trip is anything 245 miles or more.

I think that changed to block time which is every trip=55 minutes, due to the lowest block time being RSW-MCO, and most definetly is under 245 miles I believe.

A WN F/A can correct me if I am wrong.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!

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