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sibille
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Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:47 pm

I wonder why Tupolev Tu-334 and Antonov An-148 are not in airlines service yet. They flew for the first time a few years ago, they should have completed certification tests now and they have both a few orders.
Does someone know more?
 
RoyalAirMaroc
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:58 pm

Possibly a political issue........the way russia treats its customers may also be an issue.....for example very recently russia banned LH cargo from flying in it airspace.....what if LH cargo operated russian metal TU's or AN's? i think they would have tried to stop parts being delivered and restrict service. This may also be a disadvantage to the sukhoi superjet.
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Doona
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:02 pm

Quoting RoyalAirMaroc (Reply 1):
Possibly a political issue.......

Very possible. First prototype of the TU-334 came in 1995, but according to wiki was only a mock-up with some avionics. First flight was in 1999, and there are like 50-60 orders for the plane, so I don't really see what the hold-up is. Perhaps Tupolev is waiting for more orders before even commencing production?

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miamix707
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:38 pm

The An-148 is a brand new airplane so it's prob too early to ask why isn't in service. The Tu-334 should've definitely be operating by now.

Those are the most interesting small twinjets I've ever seen. Hopefully they start flying soon. Look much better than those Embraers, A318s, etc which are kind of ugly...
 
PanHAM
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:08 pm

Russian airctraft are hopeless cases. They are inefficient to operate and simply don't sell, unless they get massive assistance in design, engineering, marketing and support from western firms.

Even then, it will be a high risk to order and operate such aircraft in a competetive environment. The Tu334 is an early 90 design, who will buy an such an old aircraft which still is not in production 12 years after the first flight.

Russia would be less than nothing without their raw materials and even that they cannot get efficiently out of the ground and to the customer without western help. They simply lack almost 100 years of middle class mentality. A society that killed its bourgeoisie must obviously rely on blackmail and extortion to survive.
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khobar
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:07 pm

Quoting SIBILLE (Thread starter):
I wonder why Tupolev Tu-334 and Antonov An-148 are not in airlines service yet. They flew for the first time a few years ago, they should have completed certification tests now and they have both a few orders.
Does someone know more?

Maybe they can't find enough airworthy fasteners, what with Boeing needing to corner the market.  Wink
 
OD720
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:28 pm

The Tu-334 didn't complete full certification and got no firm orders and it seems to have come to a dead end. I haven't checked the wiki pages but I know for sure that there are no orders of the type.
 
miamix707
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:31 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
They are inefficient to operate

The An-148 is supposed to have a percentage of efficiency in the double digits over the similar Embraers. Respect to Antonov for not making the same boring looking twin as everybody else. This is also a plane that can take off from unpaved runways etc. Cubana is the only operator in the western hemisphere with some orders for it. I didn't even know about this.

It is true that many soviet craft that were copies of the west flopped (Buran) and some other military aircraft. Yes it's true most of the Russian transoports were developed during the Soviet Union with the communist mentality. Still, Russian/Soviet/Ukranian aviation has it's merits.

Shame the future of the Tu 334 isn't clear right now, that's such a good looking stubby little jet.

Quoting OD720 (Reply 6):
The Tu-334 didn't complete full certification and got no firm orders and it seems to have come to a dead end. I haven't checked the wiki pages but I know for sure that there are no orders of the type.

Looks like you're way off if this is true:


"According to Tupolev, a total of about 100 airlines have so far expressed an intereset in obtaining Tu-334s. However, the project's future is far from certain, with the directors of MiG and Rosaviakosmos both alleged to be in favour of cancelling development"

"As of December 2006 there are 55 firm orders for the Tupolev Tu-334 from 7 airlines, including Atlant-Soyuz Airlines and there are letters of intent from 24 airlines to obtain another 297 airplanes. [1] [2] Price per unit is estimated in the 19-25 million $ price range. [3]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-334
 
Alessandro
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:48 pm

Russian passengerjets aren´t so desired, their cargohaulers more. I think the An-148 got a better future....
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Lumberton
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:08 pm

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 7):
"According to Tupolev, a total of about 100 airlines have so far expressed an intereset in obtaining Tu-334s.

One hundred airlines? What is a showing of "interest"? Asking for a brochure?
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miamix707
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:20 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 9):
One hundred airlines? What is a showing of "interest"? Asking for a brochure?

I don't know, ask Tupolev?... lol

If that little jet goes into production it'll make my day. Although yes, it seems like way too many orders and "interest" for a plane that isn't really talked about much anymore.
 
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sibille
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:17 am

Just on Flightinternational's web site now.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-production-reorganisation-in.html
Could answer my question!
 
strudders
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:49 am

The TU-334 looks like a cross between a 717 BAC 1-11 and a DC9.

Interesting.

Best Regards


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na747
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:03 pm

I love the look/design of both aircrafts...and of the Sukhoi Superjet, too.
Would love to see them flying around the world, (not just Central Asia).
Will keep my fingers crossed & hope at least one of them enters service, but as we all know, easier said than done.
 
miamix707
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:36 am

Quoting SIBILLE (Reply 11):
Just on Flightinternational's web site now.

Thanks for the article! and for opening this thread.

Yessss!!! there's hope to see the Tu-334, AN-148, and new technology IL-76s!! Even at a snail's pace, at least the Russians will keep building aircraft that look cool. Enough boring western twins already! Big grin
 
EI321
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:48 am

The TU334 wont sell at all now with the Superjet around. Its a gonner.
 
cirrusdriver
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:01 pm

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 14):
Enough boring western twins already!

Boring Western twins???? Enough boring copy cat aircraft from Russia!!!  Wow!  biggrin 
 
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sibille
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:28 pm

Quoting CirrusDriver (Reply 16):
Enough boring copy cat aircraft from Russia!!!

That's a fact Boeing copy Tu-204 by puting winglets on their 757!  Big grin
 
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:57 pm

Quoting RoyalAirMaroc (Reply 1):
Possibly a political issue........the way russia treats its customers may also be an issue.....for example very recently russia banned LH cargo from flying in it airspace.....what if LH cargo operated russian metal TU's or AN's? i think they would have tried to stop parts being delivered and restrict service. This may also be a disadvantage to the sukhoi superjet.

There is a reason they say "you have to buy the horse twice from a Russian." They have a habit of not keeping to contract.  Sad

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 3):
Those are the most interesting small twinjets I've ever seen.

Interesting? Maybe.

The Tu-334 is a shrink. If you've been on a.net a while, you know shrinks have poor efficiency. This is also circa 1990 technology. As its range ls less than an E190AR, its going to have a tough time establishing market share.

Its also not yet certified in Russia, much less the West. No certification=no sales. In terms of Western service, the Tu-334 is a non starter.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 7):

The An-148 is supposed to have a percentage of efficiency in the double digits over the similar Embraers.

The An-148 is interesting. Its claims for efficiency are... interesting. But against the upcoming MRJ?

And when are deliveries? Schedule was 2005! Yes, A380 like delays. Now, some western operators have expressed mild interest. If it can be delivered to the Russian airlines and proven in service, I think the AN-148 will sell worldwide. However, there is a window here. If the MRJ is launched with the GTF's, its market will be severely reduced.

And yes, the "Superjet" should gain share. But they have to deliver. Not just aircraft, but reliability and fuel burn (overall economics) will determine their market penetration.

Looks should have nothing to do with sales. Airlines are a business. It should be about what profit can be made on the airframe.

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miamix707
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:42 pm

Quoting CirrusDriver (Reply 16):
Enough boring copy cat aircraft from Russia!!!

Hey hey! you have to recognize the Ruskys were pretty original.. at least on those two!  Wink

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 18):
If the MRJ is launched with the GTF's,

decode that for me

As for the -334, as long as Russia/CIS airlines fly it it'll help with variety some.

The Superjet also looks great, even if it has the usual "boring" configuration.
 
A342
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:13 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 18):
The Tu-334 is a shrink. If you've been on a.net a while, you know shrinks have poor efficiency.

But it has an impressive cargo capacity. Should be able to take LD3-46 containers, the same that are used on the A320 series and Tu-204 series.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 18):
Its also not yet certified in Russia

Are you sure?

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 19):
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 18):
If the MRJ is launched with the GTF's,

decode that for me

MRJ = Mitsubishi Regional Jet

GTF = Geared Turbofan
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:19 pm

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 19):

decode that for me

MRJ=Mitsubishi Regional Jet It is projected to be the first carbon fiber single isle.
GTF=Geared Turbo Fan. Basically, the fan is spinning too fast and the turbine powering the fan is turning too slow. By putting a fixed gear ratio (usually about 3:1, turbine spinning at three times the RPM of the fan).

http://www.mrj-japan.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRJ

Unfortunately, both sites are weak on information. Current empty weight of the MRJ is projected to be a bit high for an E-jet competitor. But my sources are excited about it. But then again, as a group, we're biased towards GTF's.  Wink

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Devilfish
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:04 pm

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 7):
The An-148 is supposed to have a percentage of efficiency in the double digits over the similar Embraers.

"Supposed to" is a very indefinite thing. And "double digit" efficiency advantage over its rivals would have airline executives falling over each other in the line to buy it - which isn't the case. But it does have its market.

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Quoting Alessandro (Reply 8):
I think the An-148 got a better future....

Seems like it. It will have the same market as the Let 410 and D-328Jet.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...6286/moscow-air-show-in-brief.html

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It is even now being tested for the sort of environments it would likely operate in.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...IX8AAAEAAGD0daAAAAAA&modele=jdc_34

The AN-148 is Mastering Unpaved Runways
(Source: Antonov ASTC; dated Nov. 1, 2007)

Quote:
"On October 31, 2007, one of the AN-148 regional passenger aircraft of the initial batch, flew to Odessa to carry out tests on widening its operation conditions."

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 18):

Its also not yet certified in Russia, much less the West.

I think it's already certified in Russia.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...an-148-after-russian-approval.html

Quote:
"Russia's civil aviation authority has granted type certification to the Antonov An-148, after a test programme covering more than 1,200h and 600 flights.

Antonov and Russia's Interstate Aviation Committee (MAK) now plan to validate the regional twinjet's certification under European Aviation Safety Agency standards.

An-148 testing began in August 2004 using two aircraft built by the Aviant plant in Kiev. Production is also being undertaken by the VASO plant in Voronezh."


[Edited 2007-11-09 13:17:57]
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lightsaber
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:35 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 22):

"Supposed to" is a very indefinite thing. And "double digit" efficiency advantage over its rivals would have airline executives falling over each other in the line to buy it - which isn't the case.

They'll have to prove that efficiency. They'll also have to stick to western contracts. If true... they'll sell well if the dispatch reliability is good. But then again, there have been cases where more efficient airframes have killed their sales by poor dispatch reliability at high utilization rates.

Do realize there is one quirk about flying in Russia: Internal customs. That so slows the turn times. Can the AN-148 perform a eight to a dozen 20 minute turns in a day?

Quoting A342 (Reply 20):

Are you sure?

Ummm...

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 22):

I think it's already certified in Russia.....

Oops  Wink

Lightsaber
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uzzzer
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RE: Tu-334 And An-148. Why Not In Service Yet?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:25 am

The whole thing is very political.

Tu-334 is more dead than alive. Actually, Tatarstan gov't may face serious pressure from Kremlin to stop financing the project to clear the way for SSJ.

The Russian gov't strongly favors SSJ, not An-148, even pushing ACs to review their previous deals. An-148 still will be the first one to be delivered and to go serial. Next year there will be several of them carrying pax.

Ukrainian ACs show confidence in Antonov, but hold on with acquiring as they want to get special lease deals from the gov't in Kiev. They are likely to get it as An-148 is viewed by the Cabinet a savior for the industry after the failure with An-140 turbojet.

For both SSJ and Antonov servicing the aircraft will be the issue for sales. It is doubtful that the existing Boeing service network will support SSJ.

So, Tu-334 is a pricey collectioner's item. An-148 and SSJ will have their competition first in the post-Soviet, and then in China, UAE, North Africa, finally in EU and other places.

Nothing to worry for Emb and CRJ yet, but the competition threat is out there.

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