MAH4546
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UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:23 am

Effective 13Feb08, United mainline returns to Miami. Both daily Dulles flights become 737-300s. O'Hare remains E70 jets (which, IMO, are nicer than a 733 any day), while Denver remains TED A320s. Interesting mix in Miami...

United has just failed in the Miami market, and South Florida in general, in the past decade. It really amazes me how poorly they do in South Florida.
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Super80DFW
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:39 am

Just me, I would take TED over UA mainline (especially a 737) any day. You get a true IFE. Anyway, its good that UA mainline is going back to MIA.
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BigGSFO
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:41 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
United has just failed in the Miami market, and South Florida in general, in the past decade. It really amazes me how poorly they do in South Florida.

Any speculation as to if MIA-California flights might be reinstated? I wonder if VX truly enters MIA if UA will try to beat them to MIA-SFO/LAX or not even try.
 
MAH4546
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:42 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 2):
Any speculation as to if MIA-California flights might be reinstated? I wonder if VX truly enters MIA if UA will try to beat them to MIA-SFO/LAX or not even try.

They were close to resuming them last spring, but ended up being a no-go.

And VX isn't if. They have started hiring.

I am curious to see if VX coming to MIA will see a reaction from UA, but my feeling is no. Rather, if VX, for example, where to start MIA-IAD (which is likely, though won't be a launch route), will UA beef up service there?

[Edited 2007-11-05 17:45:55]
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platinumfoota
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:48 am

I dont think UA will fly any LAX-MIA anytime soon, too much competition with AA and not enough birds to take the risk.
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roseflyer
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:57 am

It confuses me how UA has such weak service to MIA. I would think that UA would be in a good position to have a decent number of flights to South Florida. UA's hubs are in cold places where people want to get away and go to the beach and hop on cruise ships to the Caribbean. UA should have a decently large market to serve MIA, FLL and PBI from. However UA has barely any service to South Florida now. 6 flights to MIA and even fewer to FLL and PBI. UA leaves the leisure traffic up to airlines like jetBlue.

I know I'm being nostalgic, but I remember flying MIA-LAX on a 763, which happened to be the first 767 equipped with PTVS in the UA fleet during the 90s and we were parked next to 777s and other widebodies. Those were certainly different days. The first time I was ever on a 767 was flying IAD-MIA on UA.
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miamix707
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:03 am

I remember in the early 90s United 747SPs at Miami.What routes did UA put these on?

Until 2000 or so UA used to fly 777s to Miami. I remember seeing 3 of these side by side one night. And to think UA mainline is now gone! Did the 777s fly both to Europe and S. America?
 
N1120A
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:07 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 5):
UA's hubs are in cold places where people want to get away and go to the beach and hop on cruise ships to the Caribbean.

LAX and SFO certainly aren't cold places. Also, United Cruises has always done brisk business out of New Orleans.
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MAH4546
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 6):
I remember in the early 90s United 747SPs at Miami.What routes did UA put these on?

MIA-SCL.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 6):
Until 2000 or so UA used to fly 777s to Miami. I remember seeing 3 of these side by side one night. And to think UA mainline is now gone! Did the 777s fly both to Europe and S. America?

777 service lasted until, IIRC, October 2002. They were used to Buenos Aires, Santiago, and Sao Paulo, with domestic service from O'Hare, Denver, Los Angeles, and San Francisco (it rotated between those).

When UA started cutting back on South American and domestic flying, they started losing dozens of corporate travel contracts to AA. It killed them. They tried to maintain a token presence, but they were losing the business traveler market.

[Edited 2007-11-05 18:10:44]
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halls120
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:13 am

Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 1):
Just me, I would take TED over UA mainline (especially a 737) any day. You get a true IFE. Anyway, its good that UA mainline is going back to MIA.

I concur. I fly DCA-MIA frequently, and I'd appreciate more capacity IAD-MIA. the AA flights DCA-MIA are usually pretty full.
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md90fan
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:13 am

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 6):

Until 2000 or so UA used to fly 777s to Miami. I remember seeing 3 of these side by side one night. And to think UA mainline is now gone! Did the 777s fly both to Europe and S. America?

While these routes were not all 777s, not too long ago, UA's MIA-Lat.Am network looked like this:

Miami-Buenos Aires daily 772
Miami-Caracas daily A320
Miami-Rio de Janeiro daily 763
Miami-Sao Paulo daily 772
Miami-Santiago daily 763/772


That gave them coverage in the big 5 Lat.Am destinations (MAH should know what I'm talking about)
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Bicoastal
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:14 am

I don't know what LAX/SFO-MIA brings to UA. UA' s domestic network seems to exist to fill its international network out of its hubs. UA's flights to Asia (and Europe) out of SFO and LAX are packed. They likely see it's better to route Miami to Asia flyers through its hubs at Dulles and ORD, rather than competing for scarce seats out of SFO.

If UA adds LAX/SFO-MIA, they'd likely do it on Ted. Lots of leisure flyers but higher fare people to Asia will be routed through ORD and IAD.

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
United has just failed in the Miami market, and South Florida in general, in the past decade. It really amazes me how poorly they do in South Florida.

United prudently decided to pick its battles. Why fight with LCCs and AA to Miami and the rest of Florida? Moving to and strengthening Dulles has been a financially better decision than competing for vacationers and retirees to Florida. United has enough seats to and from Florida to feed its hubs up north. More they don't need.

[Edited 2007-11-05 18:15:42]
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sampa737
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:36 am

Wow! I had no idea UA pulled back to almost nothingness in Miami, much less anywhere in Florida. My first experience with United was on a 767 out of Rio and then my return to Brazil was what I was told was a brand spanking new 777 to Sao Paulo. The flights were full which is why I was surprised they pulled those flights. South America seems so lucrative for others. But as stated, ya gotta chose battles wisely.
 
miamix707
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:44 am

Surprised MCO still sees the mainline 757 from SFO?

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
777 service lasted until, IIRC, October 2002. They were used to Buenos Aires, Santiago, and Sao Paulo, with domestic service from O'Hare, Denver, Los Angeles, and San Francisco (it rotated between those).

Even if UA lost that much business traffic to AA their downgrade has been shocking. In 2002 UA still even had service from Miami to Dusseldorft with the 763. Around 2002 I remember seeing a late PM departure with the UA 777s but not many. Probably used on one or two routes if it indeed was still used from MIA by then.
 
B752OS
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 13):
Surprised MCO still sees the mainline 757 from SFO?

Are you asking a question? Peronsonally, I am not surprised at all UA still flies SFO-MCO with a 752.
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
When UA started cutting back on South American and domestic flying, they started losing dozens of corporate travel contracts to AA. It killed them. They tried to maintain a token presence, but they were losing the business traveler market.



Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 11):
United prudently decided to pick its battles. Why fight with LCCs and AA to Miami and the rest of Florida? Moving to and strengthening Dulles has been a financially better decision than competing for vacationers and retirees to Florida. United has enough seats to and from Florida to feed its hubs up north. More they don't need.

The market dynamic has changed over the last 5 years. Airlines cannot afford to have hubs that are only "marginally" profitable or losing money. South FL might be a great place to have a South American/Caribbean gateway from, but geographically other than that, it's worthless (for connections) to other network carriers. UA chose to do battle at it's hubs (i.e. losing MIA/JFK) and it's done quite well. IAD has become a powerhouse for UA's European network and now even has flights to Asia. Other than ORD, SFO and to a lesser extent LAX are large Int'l hubs on the West, and DEN handles the domestic feed in between. All in, UA quite possibly has the best O&D hubs in the U.S. Not to say there aren't any holes (NYC, Southeast)...but their feed is solid.

I don't see how what UA has done at MIA is any different than AA at STL and US at PIT. The industry is changing, airlines have to react.
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MAH4546
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 13):
Surprised MCO still sees the mainline 757 from SFO?

It's the only non-stop from MCO to SFO. They have the market easily locked up. Plus, on MCO-LAX, they have a nice Disney corporate contract.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 13):
In 2002 UA still even had service from Miami to Dusseldorft with the 763.

UA has never flown Miami-Düsseldorf. They have not flown Miami-Europe since the early 1990s, when they lost Miami-Heathrow route authority.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 13):
Around 2002 I remember seeing a late PM departure with the UA 777s but not many. Probably used on one or two routes if it indeed was still used from MIA by then.

They had two daily 772s - one to GRU and one to EZE - until 28Oct02.

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 15):

I don't see how what UA has done at MIA is any different than AA at STL and US at PIT. The industry is changing, airlines have to react.

The closing of the hub was logical. What is more surprising is the cuts in frequency on routes like MIA-ORD and MIA-IAD, which are only 2x daily each.
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C010T3
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:55 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):

777 service lasted until, IIRC, October 2002. They were used to Buenos Aires, Santiago, and Sao Paulo, with domestic service from O'Hare, Denver, Los Angeles, and San Francisco (it rotated between those).

Don't forget Rio de Janeiro! The 777s were used for a while in the MIA-GIG flights.
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:16 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
The closing of the hub was logical. What is more surprising is the cuts in frequency on routes like MIA-ORD and MIA-IAD, which are only 2x daily each.

Admittedly, I've had some trouble with those cuts (esp since I wanted to goto MIA from ORD last weekend to watch NCSU beat MIA)... Me thinks maybe UA wants to use the N/B's on other long haul routes? MIA is at least 2+ hours from IAD/ORD, mayhaps they think they are better used elsewhere?

but then I also wonder if is somewhat similar to IAD-ORD flights on AA? I believe they used to have mainline metal on that route, but now all EGL? AA does have quite substantial ORD-MIA lift, and it is hub-hub for AA.
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MAH4546
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 18):
I believe they used to have mainline metal on that route, but now all EGL?

AA doesn't fly IAD-ORD anymore, actually. Dulles is served from the other four hubs, including SJU and STL, as well as LAX, but not O'Hare.
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mel
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:51 am

Washington-Miami also ran with the 777-200s before being switched to 767-300s, then further downhill.
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fxramper
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
It really amazes me how poorly they do in South Florida.

Why?

AA, B6, CO, and DL pretty much rule the area.
 
miamix707
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:20 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
UA has never flown Miami-Düsseldorf. They have not flown Miami-Europe since the early 1990s, when they lost Miami-Heathrow route authority.

Well I was going to take that flight but didn't have my passport ready, a friend who worked for UA did. Maybe you're right, and he actually flew through IAD or something. I have to double check that. My mistake.

[Edited 2007-11-05 22:21:31]

[Edited 2007-11-05 22:26:19]
 
MAH4546
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:21 am

Quoting FXramper (Reply 21):
Why?

AA, B6, CO, and DL pretty much rule the area.

Look at other airlines operations at South Florida airports. Northwest has seven daily flights to Minneapolis during the winter. US Airways has a dozen to Philadelphia. I'm not saying United has to "rule the area", but they barely have a dozen daily flights to the country's seventh largest metro. That's pathetic for a major airline.

[Edited 2007-11-05 22:25:34]
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tommy767
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:27 am

MIA is one of the UA bases that suffered a substantial amount of cuts because of chapter 11. You could also put EWR and JFK on the list of airports that UA severely downgraded since 2002.

I remember flying in February 2000 DCA-MIA on a 722 with United, and MIA-ORD on the 777. They had around 20 gates back then (or at least decorated to look so, not sure if they utilized all of them.)
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UnitedTristar
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:47 am

Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 24):
I remember flying in February 2000 DCA-MIA on a 722 with United

I think you mean IAD, the 777 would never make it out of DCA.

-m

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JoFMO
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:24 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 23):
That's pathetic for a major airline.

I fully agree. You would at least expect them to have some service to their other hubs for international connections and to satisfy the business market of their hubs.

UA's schedule from IAD is completely useless for a business traveler with departures at 12:20 and 19:00.

And I would also expect that there is some demand from California to Southern Florida. UA can not even offer you a one stop to Australia and connections to Asia are also a little bit doggy.
 
John
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:01 pm

UA relies heavily on the US codeshares to get their people to/from Florida.
 
FMAL
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:14 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 17):
Don't forget Rio de Janeiro! The 777s were used for a while in the MIA-GIG flights

I was gonna mention that. I used to fly UA GIG-MIA-GIG regularly, and experienced the 777 on the route. It was unfortunate for me UA's pull out of the GIG-MIA route as I had good miles on MilagePlus.

I'm flying AA GIG-MIA-MCO this Sunday, and from what I can see GIG-MIA is full, as it has always been on my flights on the route. I really don't know why nobody else explores the GIG-MIA route. There's certainly market for it (AA is now with a seasonal twice daily to both GIG and GRU).
 
christao17
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:31 pm

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 25):
Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 24):
I remember flying in February 2000 DCA-MIA on a 722 with United

I think you mean IAD, the 777 would never make it out of DCA.

Yes, but he didn't write "777". I thnk he meant a 727-200.
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United_fan
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:45 pm

Not to date myself,but I remember when UA flew DCA-IAD with a 727 with dinner served.I remember flying ORD-MIA 1 month after 9/11,on a UA 763. The f/a was one of the best I've ever seen. There was no more dinner service due to cutbacks. She never charged me for my 2 Jack & Cokes..'since there's no dinner service,it's the least we can do'.
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hiflyer
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:51 pm

Quoting United_Fan (Reply 30):
Not to date myself,but I remember when UA flew DCA-IAD with a 727 with dinner served

Damn...that was a quick meal!!!!
 
aamr
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:22 pm

Quoting United_Fan (Reply 30):
Not to date myself,but I remember when UA flew DCA-IAD with a 727 with dinner served

Whats that, a 5-10 minute flight? The f/a's wouldn't even be allowed out of their seats.
 
Bicoastal
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:45 pm

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 26):
UA's schedule from IAD is completely useless for a business traveler with departures at 12:20 and 19:00

Flights are timed for international arrivals and other connecting traffic. O & D business travelers, as others have mentioned, can fly US's numerous Florida flights out of DCA if they want to stick to Star Alliance. Or, fly one of the other LCCs out of IAD. UA has been making excellent and very tough decisions recently to have its limited amount of metal fly where they can make the most money.
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United_fan
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:51 pm

Quoting Aamr (Reply 32):
Quoting United_Fan (Reply 30):
Not to date myself,but I remember when UA flew DCA-IAD with a 727 with dinner served

Whats that, a 5-10 minute flight? The f/a's wouldn't even be allowed out of their seats.

Sorry,meant DCA-MIA....
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kl911
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:29 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 5):
I know I'm being nostalgic, but I remember flying MIA-LAX on a 763, which happened to be the first 767 equipped with PTVS in the UA fleet during the 90s and we were parked next to 777s and other widebodies. Those were certainly different days. The first time I was ever on a 767 was flying IAD-MIA on UA.

Sure, I remember flying UA LHR-IAD-MIA all on 777's in December 1998. IAD-MIA was fully booked as well.

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transair737
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:52 pm

Just flew yesterday the MIA/DEN 8 am flight. As it was my first time to MIA I was amazed at how little presence United has in MIA, or that all flights were TED. Of course my reason for UA is the Star Alliance and points in Aeroplan. The AC website lists certain parings of UA flights as well and this worked better than the AC flight to YYZ connecting from there. I wish the AC website would show some US routings as well as it may have been better as they have more flights from MIA.
 
GECMD11
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:11 pm

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 13):
In 2002 UA still even had service from Miami to Dusseldorft with the 763

that was a tag on or some code share w/LH i don't think UA ever flew MIA-DUS.
 
USADreamliner
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:15 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 6):
I remember in the early 90s United 747SPs at Miami.What routes did UA put these on?

MIA-SCL

MIA-EZE too for a short period , I think in 1992.
 
NADC10Fan
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:29 pm

Quoting John (Reply 27):
UA relies heavily on the US codeshares to get their people to/from Florida.

This may be the key to the issue.

FLL is my home, and one flight I booked out of there to IND did not go via Ted by rather US through PIT; the entire service - while booked UA - was serviced by US. While the loss of UA itself is a bit of a shock to me (a former school-mate's father was a pilot for them based out of MIA; I clearly recall those days), I think UA is simply recognizing current reality and servicing its customers as needed through the codeshare.
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tommy767
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:20 pm

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 25):
I think you mean IAD, the 777 would never make it out of DCA.

-m

No it was definately a 727. They also served a good dinner. I know it was an oddball route for them, but back in 2000 UA used to fly non-stop from MIA to LGA on a 320 as well plus a few others. I remember taxiing at DCA and seeing an AA 757 arrive from ORD. Now DCA doesn't have any AA 757s!

I also remember post 9/11 on the weekends UA used to fly EWR-MIA with an A320 probably for cruises.
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luv2fly
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:24 pm

MIA ia not the end all of places like a lot of people want to think that it is.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:35 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 23):
AA, B6, CO, and DL pretty much rule the area.

Look at other airlines operations at South Florida airports. Northwest has seven daily flights to Minneapolis during the winter. US Airways has a dozen to Philadelphia. I'm not saying United has to "rule the area", but they barely have a dozen daily flights to the country's seventh largest metro. That's pathetic for a major airline.

Speaking of DL, what are the chances of SLC-MIA service at least returning on a 738 during the winter months?
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MAH4546
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:42 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 42):

Speaking of DL, what are the chances of SLC-MIA service at least returning on a 738 during the winter months?

Hopefully they will, but I know AA is now looking at starting a daily 738 on the route for next year, probably winter 08/09.
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gman3
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:49 pm

Unfotunately I just checked our Apollo system...It looks like that the mainline is just for Easter, it reverts back when I look at days in April.
 
MAH4546
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:51 pm

Quoting Gman3 (Reply 44):
Unfotunately I just checked our Apollo system...It looks like that the mainline is just for Easter, it reverts back when I look at days in April.

The same thing happened last time when they loaded the E70 jets for February, it showed reverting back to TED in April. This should be fixed soon.
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OA260
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:17 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
O'Hare remains E70 jets (which, IMO, are nicer than a 733 any day)

Totally agree. Its about time they did something to MIA. I have avoided UA Ex: MIA as I hate that TED product. Finally UA have seen sense.
 
PRAirbus
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RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:37 pm

Really doubt they could compete on MIA-LAX w/AA. AA has plenty of flights and also offer 763/777 service.
 
OB1504
Posts: 2985
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:50 pm

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 22):
Well I was going to take that flight but didn't have my passport ready, a friend who worked for UA did. Maybe you're right, and he actually flew through IAD or something. I have to double check that. My mistake.

UA does this with a lot of their flights. Their current flight 1469 routes MIA-DEN-RNO, with the departures screen showing both Denver and Reno as destinations.

What a shame that, in two years, we've gone from this:


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Photo © Snorre - VAP
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Photo © Sunbird Photos by Don Boyd



To this:


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Photo © Ben Wang
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Photo © Bianca Renz

 
MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 24522
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: UA Mainline Returns To MIA

Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:21 pm

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 47):
Really doubt they could compete on MIA-LAX w/AA. AA has plenty of flights and also offer 763/777 service.

They could compete with 1-2x daily A320s. AA does offer good service, but the market is there for a second carrier. It will be Virgin America, though, not United.
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