USADreamliner
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Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:59 pm

The new international gates would be built after the airport tears down and rebuilds the two hourly parking decks just outside the terminal. The rental-car facilities, now located on the west side of the airport, would move to the new hourly decks, freeing space for the international terminal.

Construction of the international concourse would begin in 2010, Orr says, and the facility would be ready for use in 2011.
"We're experiencing significant growth -- period -- in Charlotte, in the hub, in the airline industry," says Jerry Orr, city aviation director.
Demand for those gates could come from US Airways Group Inc., which recently announced plans to fly to Colombia from here and appears to have lost a bid for more international gates at Philadelphia.

http://charlotte.bizjournals.com/cha...84&b=1194238800^1544601&ana=e_vert
 
Adam T.
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:09 pm

Well its good that they are finally announcing the expansion. There are some plans somewhere on the internet that shows what the full expanded CLT will eventually look like, or I should say is proposed to look like. I'll try hunting it down later but right now I have to get ready for work.

Congrats to the airport though on going through with this!
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:45 pm

is this cuz PHL is getting too congested
 
747fan
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:59 pm

Maybe this will mean that US will finally start CLT-CDG.  stirthepot 
I wouldn't doubt that this expansion is at least partly due to the congestion problems at PHL, not to mention their issues with gates there. I'm wondering if CLT, despite the fact that its definitely fast-growing in terms of population and business, has healthy enough O&D to be able to support the added international flights that would come with the expansion? However, I don't doubt the fact that US has enough feed at Charlotte-Douglas to be able to support an international expansion.
If I'm not mistaken, CLT currently has 13 international gates over in Concourse D; the 25-gate addition is nearly twice as many intl. gates as they have now.
 
sw733
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:04 pm

Quoting 747fan (Reply 3):
Maybe this will mean that US will finally start CLT-CDG

Probably...in 4 years.

Good job for CLT. Having connected both in PHL and CLT when I was unfortunate enough to fly US Airways internationally, I will take CLT any day...much better!
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:08 pm

Quoting 747fan (Reply 3):
Maybe this will mean that US will finally start CLT-CDG.

US already had CLT-CDG in 2000 but dropped it in the downturn.

It would be great if CLT could take some of the pressure of PHL.
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
usairways85
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:45 pm

sorry but i don't think this will be a build it and they will come situation. Yes US can use the gates for their caribbean/lat am/south american service but I really don't see much european service working out of CLT. CLT just doesn't have the international O&D to supplement the connecting paxs

If US thinks CLT will take some weight off of PHL they are wrong. No one north of CLT will even consider connecting through CLT when they have BOS, JFK, EWR, PHL, and IAD to choose from. Also ATL has pretty much already situated itself as the dominant international connecting point in the South east.
 
Ryefly
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:53 pm

The current international D concourse would most likely switch to domestic once the new international terminal opens since it will be nearly double the size of D and located at the opposite end of the airport from D. I can see CLT relieving some over crowding at terminal A by moving a few airlines over to D in the future and provide more gates to Jet Blue or an airline or airlines that currently do not serve CLT at present.
 
7e72004
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:54 pm

I was going to ask the same thing...is this because PHL is over congested? I think this is a good move because PHL will eventually become stretched too far. Maybe USAirways is going to make PHL a focus city *lol* and move flights to CLT  Big grin
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:57 pm

It's so nice that some airports have a coherent plan for growth. The new daily parking garages are great, and the airport seems to have a healthy approach to expansion. 25 gates might be a bit ambitious, though I suspect that this is more for southbound expansion than TATL. There's still plenty of space on D in the afternoons... during the Caribbean push, not so much.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ScottB
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:03 pm

Quoting 747fan (Reply 3):
I'm wondering if CLT, despite the fact that its definitely fast-growing in terms of population and business, has healthy enough O&D to be able to support the added international flights that would come with the expansion?

No, it doesn't. If it were all about the quality of the facility, the PHL hub would be gone and PIT would still have 500 daily departures. All these pronouncements about PHL giving A-East gates to Delta and having to scale back international flying at PHL are just negotiating through the media and crocodile tears. The fact is that much of the additional transatlantic service from PHL has been seasonal, which by its nature means it is not primarily aimed at business travelers. Does business travel to ATH cease when the summer is over? How about VCE or SNN? We won't even go into the reports of how poor US's transatlantic product was this summer.
 
vega
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 10):
No, it doesn't. If it were all about the quality of the facility, the PHL hub would be gone and PIT would still have 500 daily departures. All these pronouncements about PHL giving A-East gates to Delta and having to scale back international flying at PHL are just negotiating through the media and crocodile tears. The fact is that much of the additional transatlantic service from PHL has been seasonal, which by its nature means it is not primarily aimed at business travelers.

I agree with you. My take on this who saga is that it is primarily driven by the ongoing intense DL-US competitive posture - particularly from Parker. The PHL airport authority moved the mobile lounges out of storage and offered them to US to supplement the summer gate situation. US refused to use them and instead chose to double up on the international gates - causing not infrequent long holding delays for incoming flights, particularly when an outbound was delayed. Further. the airport offered to expand A-west by 4 wide body international gates with planning/construction starting ASAP. I do however support the negativeness that moving DL and it's 25 or so daily departures to the secondary - albeit primary 757, international terminal is a waste of valuable real estate for primarily flights to Boston and Atlanta - although I understand that DL is planning to increase ATL frequencies to hourly for the business day. Further it seems even more a waste for DL to fly their RJs to BOS out of that terminal and clog up the international runways. Hopefully the BOS flights will be out of "F", but I doubt it. I see this move by DL as possibly a strategic attempt to make Sky Team inroads into PHL - with AF right next door now (after the move) and Alitalia rumored to come in soon. To support the cause, I wouldn't be surprised if DL started a few European services themselves out of PHL in the event JFK forces limited expansion.
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.
 
Indy
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:14 am

If I were Charlotte I'd be very careful about putting too much money into this. You are one good merger away from being PIT. What do you think would happen to CLT if DL were to merge with US? That was almost reality not too long ago. Be careful about mortgaging your future to support and airline that has a history of putting hubs on the chopping block.

My  twocents 
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
ScottB
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 11):
My take on this who saga is that it is primarily driven by the ongoing intense DL-US competitive posture - particularly from Parker.

Nope, it's not about Delta at all. It's about Southwest at PHL. The gates being vacated by Delta in Terminal E will be taken over by Southwest. This is being done, in part, so that WN's gates at the end of Terminal E can be closed in order to allow for the construction of the E Terminal hammerhead. While the immediate effect is small -- WN might pick up one gate, net, after some of its current gates close for construction -- after the E hammerhead is completed, WN will have access to upwards of a dozen gates at PHL. And Doug Parker really doesn't want to see Southwest operating 100+ daily departures from PHL.

Quoting Vega (Reply 11):
I do however support the negativeness that moving DL and it's 25 or so daily departures to the secondary - albeit primary 757, international terminal is a waste of valuable real estate for primarily flights to Boston and Atlanta - although I understand that DL is planning to increase ATL frequencies to hourly for the business day. Further it seems even more a waste for DL to fly their RJs to BOS out of that terminal and clog up the international runways.

By the same token, it's a "waste of valuable real estate" for US Airways to hold on to those gates largely for a single daily 757 for six months of the year. As I've said before, US has thirty gates in Terminal B/C which are used for just over 100 daily mainline departures and a number of regional departures. If US's primary concern were gate space in A-East, they could have either (1) given Star Alliance partner United 3 or 4 gates in Terminal B/C, allowing Delta to take United's gates in Terminal D or (2) given Delta 3 gates in Terminal B/C.
 
usairways85
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:50 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 11):
I do however support the negativeness that moving DL and it's 25 or so daily departures

To further support your argument the majority of DL service is Delta Connection

JFK x3 RJ's
BOS x4 RJ's
CVG x6 RJ's
SLC x2 mainline
ATL x9 mainline x1 RJ

x11 mainline
x14 Delta Connection

Although i have to agree with Scottb. US has plenty of space in B/C that is not efficiently used. They could have offered 4 gates to AC/UA in B or C and free up room in D for DL.

Also i still don't understand the argument against busing to planes. I hear the mobile lounges in PHL aren't the best but that should not be the issue. A blog posted on the Philadelphia Inquirer website showed that most people would not mind busing to the aircraft and rather felt the over all US trans atlantic product should be more of a concern than a 5 minute bus ride.
 
vega
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 13):
Nope, it's not about Delta at all. It's about Southwest at PHL. The gates being vacated by Delta in Terminal E will be taken over by Southwest. This is being done, in part, so that WN's gates at the end of Terminal E can be closed in order to allow for the construction of the E Terminal hammerhead. While the immediate effect is small -- WN might pick up one gate, net, after some of its current gates close for construction -- after the E hammerhead is completed, WN will have access to upwards of a dozen gates at PHL. And Doug Parker really doesn't want to see Southwest operating 100+ daily departures from PHL.

You seem to have missed my point. Although I agree the reason for the DL move was to vacate the gates for WN, that is not the reason for my argument, which is, why US is/was fighting to keep DL out of A-East, when in fact there are other alternatives - and that DL will likely take every advantage of the situation. Further, Parker responded to ? during an Analyst conference that he had no opposition to WN expanding at PHL - just not at the expense of A-East. Now one could easily dismiss it as politicking - but he did clearly publicly make the statement.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 13):
By the same token, it's a "waste of valuable real estate" for US Airways to hold on to those gates largely for a single daily 757 for six months of the year.

You do realize that the A-East gates are leased on a "use or loose" basis and that US uses those gate for more than Europe - e.g., the Caribbean/Bermuda all year.
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.
 
2travel2know
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:17 am

Is US in CLT trying to copy DL on the ATL-Latinamerica market?
Some destnations might work, some other will be near impossible to get the rights.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
flyingcat
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 11):
To support the cause, I wouldn't be surprised if DL started a few European services themselves out of PHL in the event JFK forces limited expansion.

PHL international service is a waste of DL metal that will not be happening. Now if another Skyteam member wants to start something up that is an other deal. AZ coming to PHL hinges on AZ 's future and by extension which euro carrier will buy them.

DL has quite frankly moved on from the US deal. US's CEO seems to have gotten hung up on it. The vast majority of his line employees however have other worries on their mind.

PS here is the full CLT build out illustration.

 
Rbgso
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:21 am

25 new international gates?  Wow! Does US consider flights to South Carolina "international"?
 
toltommy
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:43 am

Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 6):
CLT just doesn't have the international O&D to supplement the connecting paxs

Neither did ATL in 1990. But ATL is a different city because the planners had the foresight to build Concourse E.

Quoting Rbgso (Reply 18):
25 new international gates?

I'm sure they will be able to be used as domestic gates when needed. But CLT can accept major amounts of traffic from the Caribbean, South America, and Canada via those gates. The european traffic will come as PHL melts down due to the local inability to respond to the problems the airport faces.

Quoting Indy (Reply 12):
f I were Charlotte I'd be very careful about putting too much money into this. You are one good merger away from being PIT.

On the contrary, I think PHL has more to worry about. If it were DL/US again, CLT can act as a relief valve for ATL. There's not much room left there. PHL has major focus city potential.
 
usairways85
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 15):
Analyst conference that he had no opposition to WN expanding at PHL - just not at the expense of A-East.

Then why didn't he offer any other alternatives other than Delta staying in E or Delta in A-east.

Someone needs to move out of E for the sake of construction. I know its a waste for DL to be using gates that could be serving international flts, but no other alternative was proposed.

Did Parker think he was going to halt construction at E for as long as he wanted? It makes sense to move DL rather than WN because of WN's dual operation in D/E so where was DL going to go other than A-east?
 
acvitale
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:03 am

Last time an airport authority built for US the airport and community got screwed... It has happened repeatedly...

PIT - Beautiful terminal built to spec now 1/3 used.
ICT - US ops now all commuter partner.
MCI - Need I say more.
TPA - The terminal is now used by many carriers (US had a dedicated section built to spec)
 
Indy
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:04 am

Quoting Toltommy (Reply 19):
On the contrary, I think PHL has more to worry about. If it were DL/US again, CLT can act as a relief valve for ATL. There's not much room left there. PHL has major focus city potential.

This might be a first. I agree with you but I don't think you are right. Odd huh? I would suspect most people would prefer a connection in CLT over PHL any day of the week. They would likely pick CLT over ATL as well. I know if the only way I make a trip is going through PHL I won't go. ATL is about as bad. CLT would be a no brainer. That being said CLT is too close to ATL and is very heavy on the feed side. The CLT market is a fraction the size of ATL and PHL. Market size will win. O/D is where the real money is. I think airlines turn a blind eye to delays in order to serve O/D. That is a tough one too. What do you do? Cut delays or cut o/d? Pick your poison.

US has shown in my opinion a lack of regard for customer service. I am not referring to the good people that go in every day and bust their ass to do their job but the overall layout of the network. I think customer service issues are an absolute reflection of middle and upper management. It takes something special to rank with Ryanair for service.

PHL is a nightmare. What does US do? Cut PIT ops. Make sense? Maybe to bean counters but not to customers. Perhaps it would have been best to at least hold on to PIT until the CLT upgrades were done.

Basically I think CLT will be a victim of numbers and narrow minded management.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
B752OS
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:19 am

Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 6):
If US thinks CLT will take some weight off of PHL they are wrong. No one north of CLT will even consider connecting through CLT when they have BOS, JFK, EWR, PHL, and IAD to choose from. Also ATL has pretty much already situated itself as the dominant international connecting point in the South east.

I would agree with that, why would some one want to go ALB-CLT-FRA, when they could easily connect through JFK or EWR. Especially when you consider that any star connections would be better suited through IAD or JFK.

Quoting Toltommy (Reply 19):
Quoting Indy (Reply 12):
f I were Charlotte I'd be very careful about putting too much money into this. You are one good merger away from being PIT.

On the contrary, I think PHL has more to worry about. If it were DL/US again, CLT can act as a relief valve for ATL. There's not much room left there. PHL has major focus city potential.

There is not enough O&D from the Southeast and Europe to go around. You would be talking about flights being completely dominated by connecting pax and that would simply not work for 2 airports as it does for ATL in regards to the better portion of their European flights. Bottom line, PHL, granted it is a terrible hub, CLT is no peach itself, has much more O&D and is in better position for connecting pax.
 
Ryefly
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:46 am

The CLT airport director, Jerry Orr can be best described politely as a very conservative southerner. He prides himself in running the airport on a tight budget to keep it's costs low. He has often been criticized for moving too slow on improvements and projects regarding the airport in the past. He must know something we don't for him to approve a fourth runway, 25 gate expansion to terminal E, a new 25 gate international terminal, a third 4 thousand spot parking garage in just over a year, a complete redesign of the front lobby, new hourly and rental car garages.
 
Indy
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:50 am

Quoting RyeFly (Reply 24):
He must know something we don't for him to approve a fourth runway, 25 gate expansion to terminal E

Doesn't matter what you know today because a merger tomorrow changes everything.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
Tornado82
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 25):
Doesn't matter what you know today because a merger tomorrow changes everything.

Agreed.

Tom Forrester (the "father" of PIT) was once considered a hero too for his work to champion and build the "Airport of the Future" out there on Rt 60. History has proven it to be a financial disaster despite it not being his fault, God rest his soul.
 
Ryefly
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:15 am

It's interesting to note that the diagram of the proposed expansion is actually what was unveiled as United's vision shortly after the first merger announcement between US Airways and United was announced. Note the expanded wing on terminal B which has not been announced or mentioned since. It seems quite similar except for that, and the onsite hotel/international/commuter north of the current daily lots.
 
steeler83
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 26):
Tom Forrester (the "father" of PIT) was once considered a hero too for his work to champion and build the "Airport of the Future" out there on Rt 60. History has proven it to be a financial disaster despite it not being his fault, God rest his soul.

I can't believe I forgot about Tom Forrester. God rest his soul indeed!
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:32 am

I don't see Charlotte becoming a major international connecting hub. Delta is much bigger in Atlanta and has a better frequent flyer loyalty base for international flights (nationwide) than USAir.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
gilesdavies
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:02 am

Interesting news article and great to see an airport planning expansion before it actually happens or is needed. So many airports refuse to expand until they are at bursting point and absolutely necessary...

Whenever connecting through CLT it is always a delight and seems such a stress-free airport...

In the news article everyone seems positive about the expansion and not one word about people complaining about it, also the airport receives praise for how it will boast the cities economy.

If only it was the same attitude here in the UK, which is full of NIMBY's and protests. Airports will only decide to expand once they are at 125% of their capacity, planning applications seem to take years and usually have to have a public enquiry. Not until 10yrs later will the expansion happen!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:53 pm

Quoting RyeFly (Reply 24):
third 4 thousand spot parking garage in just over a year,

The amazing thing is that they are needed. Parking in the new garages can be hard to come by, and the long-term lots (and remote) frequently reach capacity. There is no question that CLT's local traffic is growing, and the airport needs to deal with that. Significantly, much of that growth has come from new entrants, not from US, and most of the landside improvements will not really benefit US.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 23):
There is not enough O&D from the Southeast and Europe to go around.

This expansion isn't about Europe. US could increase the amount of Europe flying they're doing ex-CLT sixfold without expansion.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ScottB
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:21 pm

Quoting Vega (Reply 15):
You seem to have missed my point. Although I agree the reason for the DL move was to vacate the gates for WN, that is not the reason for my argument, which is, why US is/was fighting to keep DL out of A-East, when in fact there are other alternatives - and that DL will likely take every advantage of the situation. Further, Parker responded to ? during an Analyst conference that he had no opposition to WN expanding at PHL - just not at the expense of A-East. Now one could easily dismiss it as politicking - but he did clearly publicly make the statement.

No, I did understand your point, I just don't think it rings true. Do you honestly believe that Doug Parker is going to say, "We need to tie up as many gates at PHL as possible to keep Southwest from expanding?" That's not too far off from "Southwest is coming to Philadelphia to kill us." There simply is not enough space in Terminal D currently to move Delta there, and we certainly did not see US offer to house either of its Star Alliance partners in Terminal B/C. I'm sure that Delta also wanted at least one widebody-capable gate as well as a space suitable for a Crown Room Club.

Now, I wouldn't be surprised if Delta is happy to go along with the move since it does poke a finger in the eye of US Airways management. The City of Philadelphia has offered to extend A-West for US Airways as well -- but the enthusiasm for that from Tempe seems very limited.

I simply don't see Delta doing any flying to Europe from Philadelphia when they're not doing any at all from a market which they view as being a focus -- Boston. Even the argument that tying up gates in PHL might retard US's transatlantic expansion is weakened by the fact that US simply doesn't have the fleet necessary to do much more.

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 30):
Interesting news article and great to see an airport planning expansion before it actually happens or is needed. So many airports refuse to expand until they are at bursting point and absolutely necessary

Well, to me it's fine to have the plans on the books, though it is unlikely that CLT would need 25 international gates until a few decades from now. Overbuilding can be costly, especially if the intended user of the facilities ends up cutting back its presence.
 
B752OS
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:23 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 31):
Quoting B752OS (Reply 23):
There is not enough O&D from the Southeast and Europe to go around.

This expansion isn't about Europe. US could increase the amount of Europe flying they're doing ex-CLT sixfold without expansion.

I assume you a referencing Latin America then. I think that is going to be a tough nut for US to crack. Latin America, namely South America, is still growing and relatively small when compared to Asia and Europe. Asia has a higher expected growth rate than any other region. With that said, I don't believe that CLT could act as another gateway to Latin America. IAH, MIA, and ATL are already taking care of that. It's nice that CLT is going to expand their gates, but the expansion will go severaly underused in my opinion.
 
iowaman
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:41 pm

Too bad WN can't pick up a few gates in CLT with the new expansion...

Fares are ridiculously high and it would be another dot in the system....
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:09 pm

Quoting B752OS (Reply 33):
I don't believe that CLT could act as another gateway to Latin America. IAH, MIA, and ATL are already taking care of that

The best CLT could achieve as a gateway to Latinamerica/Caribbean is to have as many Latinamerican destinations served as DFW (without counting Mexican destinations).
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
vega
Posts: 1161
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:56 am

RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:40 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 32):
Quoting Vega (Reply 15):
You seem to have missed my point. Although I agree the reason for the DL move was to vacate the gates for WN, that is not the reason for my argument, which is, why US is/was fighting to keep DL out of A-East, when in fact there are other alternatives - and that DL will likely take every advantage of the situation. Further, Parker responded to ? during an Analyst conference that he had no opposition to WN expanding at PHL - just not at the expense of A-East. Now one could easily dismiss it as politicking - but he did clearly publicly make the statement.

No, I did understand your point,

To strengthen my position:
"US Airways threatened yesterday to scuttle its plans to provide nonstop flights between Philadelphia and Beijing if airport officials allow Delta Air Lines to move into a disputed terminal. ......"
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/front..._Airways_plays_its_China_card.html

Quoting ScottB (Reply 32):
Even the argument that tying up gates in PHL might retard US's transatlantic expansion is weakened by the fact that US simply doesn't have the fleet necessary to do much more.

For the next couple of months, I agree. Also, if DL had any plans to expand internationally from BOS, they would have done so a long time ago. The move in PHL is potentially a "new" opportunity as a possible relief for JFK forced reductions (as I earlier stated)..

[Edited 2007-11-07 12:56:00]
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Adam T.
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:43 pm

Quoting RyeFly (Reply 27):
It's interesting to note that the diagram of the proposed expansion is actually what was unveiled as United's vision shortly after the first merger announcement between US Airways and United was announced. Note the expanded wing on terminal B which has not been announced or mentioned since. It seems quite similar except for that, and the onsite hotel/international/commuter north of the current daily lots.

I had forgotten about the airport plans for United.....you are right, these plans do look fairly similar. Personally....I thought the expansion of Concourse B would come before the new international terminal. With the new intl. terminal I do see more expansion of other carriers other than US Airways and I also think Air Canada and United will be the first airlines to leave Concourse A and move to B or D since they are in Star Alliance.

Another question.......what will the airport do with the customs facility under Concourse D once the new Intl terminal is built?
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:12 pm

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 29):
I don't see Charlotte becoming a major international connecting hub. Delta is much bigger in Atlanta and has a better frequent flyer loyalty base for international flights (nationwide) than USAir.

It doesnt have much to do with DL or ATL. Most people are going to be connecting through ATL or CLT. If US charges less why would someone who is going to be connecting anyway care if they go through ATL or CLT?

Quoting Vega (Reply 36):
For the next couple of months, I agree. Also, if DL had any plans to expand internationally from BOS, they would have done so a long time ago. The move in PHL is potentially a "new" opportunity as a possible relief for JFK forced reductions (as I earlier stated)..

I dont think at all that PHL will serve as a relief for JFK on an international level. DL would have to be increadibly stupid to try that.
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Tom in NO
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:49 pm

Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 6):
sorry but i don't think this will be a build it and they will come situation.

As mentioned elsewhere, airports that build on this philosophy more times than not regret having done so. Let's go outside USAirways and look at AA. The airport authorities in RDU and BNA built them extravagent (at the time) new concourses and facilties.....now they've been vacated by AA, and unless all those facilities have been leased to new tenants, then guess what...all remaining airlines at those airports are left to pay off the debt service for those facilities.

I would imagine that the OTHER airlines at CLT will have something to say about these plans, and I guarantee those comments won't be positive.

Tom at MSY
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Cubsrule
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:32 pm

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 35):
The best CLT could achieve as a gateway to Latinamerica/Caribbean is to have as many Latinamerican destinations served as DFW (without counting Mexican destinations).

CLT and DFW are totally different animals as far as Latin America is concerned. DFW is only really an effective connecting hub for Mexico, northern Central America, and the very largest South American destinations (EZE and GRU, maybe LIM). DFW-SCL would be cut in a minute if it had to survive on passengers alone; cargo is the only reason that route is a round.

OTOH, CLT is a viable connecting point for the Caribbean and South America but not so much for Mexico and northern South America. Now that the US-Argentina bilateral has been liberalized, I would not be surprised to see US try to get 5-7 Argentina frequencies if they can find the aircraft for CLT-EZE. I'm not convinced it would work, but except for aircraft availability, it seems like a logical route for them to try.
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LAXdude1023
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 40):
CLT and DFW are totally different animals as far as Latin America is concerned. DFW is only really an effective connecting hub for Mexico, northern Central America, and the very largest South American destinations (EZE and GRU, maybe LIM). DFW-SCL would be cut in a minute if it had to survive on passengers alone; cargo is the only reason that route is a round.

One missing factor: O&D. DFW doesnt have a huge O&D to South America, but I would be willing to bet that it has more than CLT. That is one reason some of the flights work from DFW.
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ScottB
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 36):
"US Airways threatened yesterday to scuttle its plans to provide nonstop flights between Philadelphia and Beijing if airport officials allow Delta Air Lines to move into a disputed terminal. ......"

Again, more posturing by US Airways. Honestly, it strikes me as (figuratively) cutting their nose off to spite their face. Philly ought to call their bluff. It's just plain dishonest to get city leaders to back them in their application with the DOT and to then throw it back in the city's face.

Quoting Vega (Reply 36):
Also, if DL had any plans to expand internationally from BOS, they would have done so a long time ago. The move in PHL is potentially a "new" opportunity as a possible relief for JFK forced reductions (as I earlier stated)..

Delta has no feed and a limited customer base in PHL. How exactly would it help relieve forced reductions at JFK? They'd be better off trying to run things from EWR.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 41):
DFW doesnt have a huge O&D to South America, but I would be willing to bet that it has more than CLT. That is one reason some of the flights work from DFW.

Oh, almost certainly. But if you put aside the fact that AA is far stronger in South America than US, any South America route that works from DFW should, in principle, work from CLT because the better connections compensate for the local traffic disparity.
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LAXdude1023
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 43):
Oh, almost certainly. But if you put aside the fact that AA is far stronger in South America than US, any South America route that works from DFW should, in principle, work from CLT because the better connections compensate for the local traffic disparity.

CLT has a better locale for traffic flow to South America. No arguement there.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:22 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 44):
No arguement there.

I think we're basically saying the same thing...
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LAXdude1023
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:26 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 45):
I think we're basically saying the same thing...

HAHA, fair enough dude!  Smile
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2travel2know
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:01 am

RE: DFW Latinamerican gateway vs CLT potential Latinamerican gateway.
DFW has AA in MIA, meaning that in most DFW - Latinamerican routes (except Mexico and selected Centralamerican routes) AA uses their DFW flights to accomodate cheap fare passengers in order to have more high-yield seats available for sale on their MIA routes.
Some CLT - Latinamerican routes could work in the near future and the best way for US to try new Latiamerican services would be to check DL best performing destinations and start offering flights to those destinations, as long as the connections to be offered @ CLT are very, very good and US fares are passenger friendly as Spirit and Jet Blue.
I can imagine some people at US checking the numbers for possible CLT-SAL/GUA/PTY/SDQ/BOG/LIM rightnow.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:14 pm

Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 39):
I would imagine that the OTHER airlines at CLT will have something to say about these plans, and I guarantee those comments won't be positive.

Why not? CLT is one of the cheapest large hubs in which to operate, and as I pointed out above, most of the recent changes at the airport (and many of those coming next) benefit other carriers far more than US.
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jetdeltamsy
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RE: Charlotte Plans To Add 25 Int'l Gates

Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:47 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 38):
If US charges less why would someone who is going to be connecting anyway care if they go through ATL or CLT?

I agree with you there. People are going to flock to the lowest priced provider.

But hasn't Delta been just that as of late? Generally speaking they are the lowest priced service in many international markets. Air France, too, with whom they share flights and seats.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.