NYC777
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Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:03 pm

Well so much for the "news" that the 747-8I is behind schedule as some people on this foru mare hoping for:

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/...s/prnewswire/AQTU09706112007-1.htm
Fair Use Excerpt:
EVERETT, Wash., Nov. 6 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- The Boeing Company has completed firm configuration of the 747-8 Intercontinental. This milestone marks the completion of the major trade studies needed to finalize the airplane's performance and interior features.

"We have designed the 747-8 Intercontinental to be the ideal airplane for serving the 400- to 500-seat market between the 777 and the A380," said Michael Teal, deputy chief project engineer for the 747 program. "The airplane will provide airlines significantly lower operating costs, as well as improved economics and environmental performance compared to the 747-400. It also will feature a new interior that will increase passenger appeal and create a strong and very favorable first impression."

Many of the trade studies for the 747-8 Intercontinental focused on the airplane's interior. The airplane will incorporate interior features from the 787 Dreamliner, including a new curved, upswept architecture that will give passengers a greater feeling of space and comfort, while adding more room for personal belongings. The enhanced interior architecture is accentuated by new lighting technology that creates a perception of airy brightness and provides smooth lighting transitions to offer a more restful environment.

The 747-8 also will integrate features from the 777, including windows that equal those on the 777 (15.3 inches/38.8 centimeters tall and 10.76 inches/27.3 centimeters wide), and are larger than those on the 747-400.

"The 747 family's unique interior and structural design have provided passengers with memorable flying experiences for decades," said Doug Ackerman, engineering interior team leader for the 747-8. "With the newly applied 787 features, passengers will know they are on a brand new airplane the moment they step on board, and enjoy a more relaxing flying experience."

As for the airplane's performance, the 747-8 Intercontinental will be stretched 5.6m (18.3ft) from the 747-400 to provide 467 seats in a three-class configuration and approximately 14,815-km (8,000-nmi) in range. It will provide nearly equivalent trip costs to those on the 747-400 and 10 percent lower seat-mile costs, plus 28 percent greater cargo volume. The 747-8 Intercontinental also will be 16 percent more fuel efficient and 30 percent quieter than its predecessor.

With firm configuration complete, Boeing and its suppliers can begin detailed design of parts, assemblies and other systems for the 747-8 Intercontinental. The detailed designs will then be released to Boeing suppliers and factories to begin production of the airplane.

"This milestone is a tribute to the efforts of the 747-8 team, our customers and suppliers," said Teal. "Now our team and partners must concentrate on completing the detailed designs needed to begin production and deliver the airplane on schedule in late 2010."

The 747-8 program, which includes the 747-8 Intercontinental and the 747-8 Freighter, was launched in November 2005 by Cargolux Airlines and Nippon Cargo Airlines. Lufthansa was the first airline to order the 747-8 Intercontinental in December 2006.
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flysherwood
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:14 pm

She is and will always be the ONLY Queen of the skies!  Wink

Way to go Boeing! I can't wait to see the 748I in LH colors.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:15 pm

Well, they are completely firm on the 748F length for the 748I and the 8000nm range even though it doesn't suit EK's specs for overloaded flights to LAX.

Hmmm... seems like Tim Clark doesn't unlimited "power" and influence after all. I always laugh when people take EK's blustering so seriously. They are one airline with a very vocal management, with huge expansion plans, but there's no assurance they will succeed, at least to the level where they will take all the planes they are discussing.

Building products to the specs of one expanding company at the expense of an entire mature industry is not a smart business decision. At least not unless that company is willing to buy a huge portion of your product. If many companies were asking for an 8500nm shorter 748 that's one thing, but that doesn't seem to be the case, as those 500nm between 8000-8500nm have limited value to most other carriers around the world...
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SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:22 pm

So just to confirm? Boeing have essentially paid lip service to EK's requests and have gone with the original plans?
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MSYtristar
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:23 pm

That will be one good looking bird when she takes to the skies. Indeed, the true "Queen of the Skies".

And at 249 feet long, she'll be 10ft. longer than the A380.  Wink
 
NYC777
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:24 pm

Boeing can come back and offer EK the shorter version if they felt that their enough of a market for that airplane. They do have an existing contract with LH that they have to honor with the longer version of the 748I.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
A342
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:38 pm

The following is interesting: In that press statement, they don't compare it to the A380 any more, unlike in previous press releases. IMO this just shows the aircraft complement each other, rather than compete in the same market as many people still think.

Quoting Boeing:
"We have designed the 747-8 Intercontinental to be the ideal airplane for serving the 400- to 500-seat market between the 777 and the A380"
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:38 pm

Good luck to Boeing. I don't expect them to win many, if any, RFP's against the A380-800, but then again, not every RFP may be against the A380-800.

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 3):
So just to confirm? Boeing have essentially paid lip service to EK's requests and have gone with the original plans?

I would not put it quite so...bluntly...myself, since it could be said that it does not appear that EK was willing to commit to an order sufficient enough to justify either building it as a sub-variant of the "baseline" 747-8I or to convince Boeing to build it instead of the "baseline" 747-8I and compensate LH (or even risk losing the deal all-together).
 
NYC777
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:40 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 6):
The following is interesting: In that press statement, they don't compare it to the A380 any more, unlike in previous press releases. IMO this just shows the aircraft complement each other, rather than compete in the same market as many people still think.

They never compared it to the a380. Boeing has always stated that it was sizing the -8I to be between the 77W and hte A380. It's only people on a.net that compared the 748I with the A380.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
atnight
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:52 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
Well so much for the "news" that the 747-8I is behind schedule as some people on this foru mare hoping for

Although a great milestone, the article doesn't say anything about schedule, so it would be wise for you to not jump of joy just yet! Let's hope the B748I is not late, but I have still my doubts on that. With what is said in the article, the B748I could very well be still late as rumors go around, for the text doesn't say anything on that regard.

Something that I notice about this article is that Boeing is finally not comparing the B748 to the A380 for their numbers. Here they clearly are putting the B748I between the 777 and A380, which when they first advertised, was not so. Now they compare their numbers to their own B744. So I think Boeing has realized that the A380 is truly in a league of its own and that maybe the A380 is giving a better performance above specs, thus they don't have anything that can compete with it, although at the end, both the A380 and B748I are VLA.

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 1):
She is and will always be the ONLY Queen of the skies!

It use to be funny to see people holding on to the old queen, now is just plain childish! Give it up, the B747 is no longer the queen, like it or not!

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
Well, they are completely firm on the 748F length for the 748I and the 8000nm range even though it doesn't suit EK's specs for overloaded flights to LAX.

I seriously doubt EK will order the B748I, as it does not meet their needs.... remember that Mr. Clark said that they will not order anything unless Boeing or Airbus give them what they want.... With this news, the idea of seeing B748Is along with A380s in EK's livery seem more distant.
The question that one should ask, will any other airline besides LH go for the B748I having A380s in their fleet?

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 8):
They never compared it to the a380. Boeing has always stated that it was sizing the -8I to be between the 77W and hte A380. It's only people on a.net that compared the 748I with the A380.

I think your love for Boeing blinds you too much... Boeing initially put he B748I against the A380 and their numbers where against the A380.. That they no longer do that is a different story, and I'm pretty sure why...
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ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:00 pm

Quoting Atnight (Reply 9):
I seriously doubt EK will order the B748I, as it does not meet their needs.... remember that Mr. Clark said that they will not order anything unless Boeing or Airbus give them what they want....

Yes, I know. That's the whole point.

EK is very vocal. They stomp their feet and say "I want this and I want that" and yet the companies go along their merry way anyway. Boeing has not changed the 748 for EK nor have they rushed forward with the 787-10 to please them. Airbus has not altered the A380 nor launched the A380-900, nor increased the range of the A350-1000 despite the wishes of EK.
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scbriml
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:04 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 8):
They never compared it to the a380.

Not completely true. They have, for quite a long time, claimed the 748i was more efficient than the A380. They no longer seem to be making that claim in this release. Airbus did make quite a fuss some time back because Boeing was using very pessimistic A380 numbers.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/747family/747-8_background.html

Quote:
The 747-8 Intercontinental is more than 10 percent lighter per seat than the A380, and consumes 10 percent less fuel per passenger. That translates into a trip-cost reduction of 19 percent and a seat-mile cost reduction of more than 3 percent compared to the A380.
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A342
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:05 pm

Quoting Atnight (Reply 9):
Boeing initially put he B748I against the A380 and their numbers where against the A380.. That they no longer do that is a different story

 checkmark  Spot on!
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
LAXDESI
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:12 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
As for the airplane's performance, the 747-8 Intercontinental will be stretched 5.6m (18.3ft) from the 747-400 to provide 467 seats in a three-class configuration and approximately 14,815-km (8,000-nmi) in range. It will provide nearly equivalent trip costs to those on the 747-400 and 10 percent lower seat-mile costs, plus 28 percent greater cargo volume. The 747-8 Intercontinental also will be 16 percent more fuel efficient and 30 percent quieter than its predecessor.

There has been talk of AI looking at ordering 10-12 A380s; I wonder if 747-8 will also be considered.

AI is BOM/DEL centric, and all of east coast NA cities are under 7,000 nm from BOM/DEL, which makes it possible to fly these routes non-stop year round without payload penalty.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:12 pm

Quoting Atnight (Reply 9):
Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 1):
She is and will always be the ONLY Queen of the skies!

It use to be funny to see people holding on to the old queen, now is just plain childish! Give it up, the B747 is no longer the queen, like it or not!

Yes she is, the Queen just got replaced by a King, that's all.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
EI321
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:15 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
They are one airline with a very vocal management, with huge expansion plans, but there's no assurance they will succeed, at least to the level where they will take all the planes they are discussing.

They are also the only airline that appear to be seriously considering buying it. Who have we left that are serious about it?

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 8):
They never compared it to the a380. Boeing has always stated that it was sizing the -8I to be between the 77W and hte A380. It's only people on a.net that compared the 748I with the A380.



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 11):
Airbus did make quite a fuss some time back because Boeing was using very pessimistic A380 numbers.

And very optomistic 747-8i ones.
 
flysherwood
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:17 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 14):
Yes she is, the Queen just got replaced by a King, that's all.

Nah, the Queen is the Queen. That other big jet should be known as Moby.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:22 pm

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 16):

Every news story I've heard in the past number of years has labelled the 380, "Super Jumbo". I'm betting that's the name the public will adopt and the one that will stick.
What the...?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:06 pm

If we must give the A380 a royal title, I respectfully submit "Empress" for consideration.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 17):
Every news story I've heard in the past number of years has labeled the 380, "Super Jumbo". I'm betting that's the name the public will adopt and the one that will stick.

Makes sense. Folks call the 747 "Jumbo" so calling the A380 "Super Jumbo" would not be untoward.
 
EI321
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:15 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 17):
I'm betting that's the name the public will adopt and the one that will stick.

It already has stuck.
 
klkla
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:53 pm

Quoting Atnight (Reply 9):
It use to be funny to see people holding on to the old queen, now is just plain childish! Give it up, the B747 is no longer the queen, like it or not!

The term 'queen' doesn't describe it's size. It's more about it's elegant design. The A380 is anything but elegant (more like a fat drag queen in comparison). The 747 will remain the queen because it retains it's elegant design.

Note: I'm only talking about aesthetics which are subjecive.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:04 pm

Quoting Klkla (Reply 20):
The term 'queen' doesn't describe it's size. It's more about it's elegant design. The A380 is anything but elegant (more like a fat drag queen in comparison). The 747 will remain the queen because it retains it's elegant design.

Note: I'm only talking about aesthetics which are subjecive.

That's why I suggested "the King". Kings are usually fatter and uglier.  mischievous 
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FlyingAY
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:15 pm

Quoting Klkla (Reply 20):

Note: I'm only talking about aesthetics which are subjecive.

Indeed. I find the 747 to be one of the ugliest airliners there is if you look her directly from front. For example the plane in the airliners.net logo looks horrible - like someone had squashed her cheeks from both left and right.

However, airliners are not about aesthetics.

I would think that Boeing has had the performance characteristics firmed up already a while ago. LH certainly doesn't buy planes at random. They were offered and they bought a certain plane and that's the plane Boeing describes above. I don't see how they could have come up with anything else than that.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:15 pm

Quoting Atnight (Reply 9):
It use to be funny to see people holding on to the old queen, now is just plain childish! Give it up, the B747 is no longer the queen, like it or not!

...telling people to "stop" and then giving your own opinion is a bit hypocritical don't you think?

Quoting Klkla (Reply 20):

The term 'queen' doesn't describe it's size. It's more about it's elegant design.

 checkmark 

Quoting Klkla (Reply 20):
(more like a fat drag queen in comparison).

 rotfl 

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
Folks call the 747 "Jumbo" so calling the A380 "Super Jumbo" would not be untoward.

..sounds good to me... Smile
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atnight
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:39 pm

Quoting Klkla (Reply 20):
The term 'queen' doesn't describe it's size. It's more about it's elegant design. The A380 is anything but elegant (more like a fat drag queen in comparison). The 747 will remain the queen because it retains it's elegant design.

Note: I'm only talking about aesthetics which are subjecive.

If you say that aesthetics are subjective, why state your opinion as some sort of fact? That is real hypocritical...

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 23):
...telling people to "stop" and then giving your own opinion is a bit hypocritical don't you think?

My opinion? I guess you missed what SQ's Mr. Chew said when he took delivery of the first A380... But it is your opinion and that of a.netters that count, right? After all, what people like you call it is more important than that of airlines that have actually bought the plane... yeah, it is just my opinion....
Please, grow out of it... You will see that BA, LH, AF, EK and the rest of airlines who buy it, will also call their ship "queen" (especially BA) it's just a matter of time.... so give it up would you?
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gigneil
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:48 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
I always laugh when people take EK's blustering so seriously.

That's sorta stupid, don't you think? They're the largest buyer of both airframers' flagship products.

I would think people at both will lose sleep over what Tim Clark says.

NS
 
eraugrad02
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:30 pm

I guess per the Boeing news release that they didnt gain 200nm to this design. But maybe they'll notice gains after the first bird starts testing.
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GECMD11
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:39 pm

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 1):
She is and will always be the ONLY Queen of the skies! Wink

Way to go Boeing! I can't wait to see the 748I in LH colors.

 checkmark  also hoping LH cargo will jump on the 748F order list soon
 
flysherwood
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:08 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 25):
That's sorta stupid, don't you think? They're the largest buyer of both airframers' flagship products.

EK has no 744's and has yet to buy the 748. So NO, they are not the largest buyer of Boeing's flagship product. Airbus on the other hand... Oh, and their massive bet that people will want to continue to fly to Dubai from India and South Asia just to get to Europe and the USA is going to go down in flames someday. That day will come when the 787 and A350's are filling the skies. Because the business class and first class travelers are going to want to fly direct and not add an extra 3-5 hours to their travel time. And we all know which traveler makes all the profit for the airline.  Wink
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:15 pm

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 22):
Indeed. I find the 747 to be one of the ugliest airliners there is if you look her directly from front.

Oddly enough, that is the only angle I find aesthetically pleasing for the A380 because then her huge wings are what draws the eyes and not her ungainly (to my eyes) forward section.

I think a 747 looks best when viewed from the rear-quarter, especially on rotation.
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:36 pm

I would love to see some of you people car shopping. You would look at a van that seats 15, compare it to an SUV that seats 8, and then a Toyota Yaris hybrid. If you routinely only drive two people all the time and you look at a 15 seater because it is the biggest and newest you may need professional help.

The whole point is the vehicles are for different purposes. One is no better than another in the long run as long as they are used to the maximum use that they are designed for. Maintenance and dispatch reliablity at this point is mute because one is brand new with only one example in service and one is still on the drawing board. An airline who can only profitably fill the seats for the 748i would be absolute idiots to buy an A380. And if an airline was filling a 748i and turning away business on a ongoing basis would be morrons not to buy the A380. Despite what people may think on this forum Boeing and Airbus don't give a rats patute what we all think. They are speaking to airlines and developing planes to meet those needs and make a profit. Time will tell which vision of the market will be correct. And shocker of all shockers - there may be room for both.
 
keesje
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:37 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
Well so much for the "news" that the 747-8I is behind schedule as some people on this foru mare hoping for:

 Confused Because Boeing doesn't say it is behind?

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 8):
They never compared it to the a380. Boeing has always stated that it was sizing the -8I to be between the 77W and hte A380. It's only people on a.net that compared the 748I with the A380.

No, Boeing stands so to say "above" that.. http://www.google.com/search?tab=nw&hl=en&ned=&q=randy%20boeing%20a380
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
na
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:39 pm

Very nice to hear the new 747 is on track. Lets hope it´ll be one of the increasingly few projects which are keeping track.
Hoping for a breakthrough 2008 for the "Queen of the Skies"

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 22):
Indeed. I find the 747 to be one of the ugliest airliners there is if you look her directly from front. For example the plane in the airliners.net logo looks horrible - like someone had squashed her cheeks from both left and right.

Well, for me, and many here, its fortunately different. Thats why the 747 is for most people, and will remain, the "Queen of the Skies", the most famous airliner and the most important longhaul jet ever developed. The 747 is the only really "characterful", different design left in a mass of boring twinjets. Its an unusual looking, yet very elegant and well balanced looking airliner, just perfect. The 767, 777, 787, A330, A300, A350 and so on, they all look almost the same. Distinguishable only for experts. If not for the 747 (and now the A380, for its impressive size, not for beauty) I wouldn´t be so much of an aviation enthusiast as I am now.
Talking about ugly airliners (well, not really ugly, as its hard to find an ugly one in its real sense), one piece of bad design is the 773 for me, which looks so overstrechted that it appears like a foolish photoshop experiment accidently coming true.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:40 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
If we must give the A380 a royal title, I respectfully submit "Empress" for consideration.

I've been suggesting that for a while. But there are certain people who are more interested in creating a fight than actually choosing a cool new nickname for the big lady.

King of the Skies is fine, though planes are usually girls I guess. But Empress sounds very regal and classy.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 23):
...telling people to "stop" and then giving your own opinion is a bit hypocritical don't you think?

Not to mention that usurping someone's name, their identity, is one of the most aggressive acts anyone can do. That's what gets people annoyed. By calling it the "new queen" it is an attack, worse than a silly nickname like whalejet. It's saying: "ha, we're better, go screw yourself."

Now if Airbus built the 747 and now are replacing it with the A380, then Airbus would have the right to call it "the new queen" (see Cunard), but these are competitors, and the whole "new queen" thing is an aggressive action.

There is no reason the A380 should usurp any other aircraft nickname anyway. It should be given, or earn, it's own moniker. Are some people so insecure that they have to steal another nickname for the A380 just to prove how superior it is? Seems kind of lame to me...

And Chew's talk is just that. Talk. SQ has invested a ton in the A380 and are in fact attacking the competition in the press who still fly the "outdated" 747, which is why he tries to say those things. He talks about how out of date the 747 is, even the 748, and how other carriers will have to buy the A380 or SQ will eat their lunch, which sounds pretty obnoxious, honestly. But his airline made a choice to abandon the 747, and he has to make comments consistent with that stance. Calling it the "new queen" is an affirmation for him that his company made the right choice. It doesn't, however, provide any proof that it's a fair nickname.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
flysherwood
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:42 pm

Quoting NA (Reply 32):
Talking about ugly airliners (well, not really ugly, as its hard to find an ugly one in its real sense), one piece of bad design is the 773 for me, which looks so overstrechted that it appears like a foolish photoshop experiment accidently coming true.

I have to agree with you on the 773 looking like something out of the photoshop! Another one is the A340-600.

To me the 772, A343, 767-300, 757-200 and the A332 look like they are the right length.

Quoting NA (Reply 32):
Well, for me, and many here, its fortunately different. Thats why the 747 is for most people, and will remain, the "Queen of the Skies", the most famous airliner and the most important longhaul jet ever developed. The 747 is the only really "characterful",

 checkmark 
 
Buddys747
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:44 pm

It's funny how just because EK, BA, SQ, etc. won't order the 748i, that it is dead in the water and won't get any more orders. Let's not forget that there are still a lot of 744 customers out there that don't need to order a VLA anytime soon. By the time they do order, the A380 will be in service a few years and they can see if they really need a much larger aircraft flying around empty seats.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:46 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 33):
Now if Airbus built the 747 and now are replacing it with the A380, then Airbus would have the right to call it "the new queen" (see Cunard), but these are competitors, and the whole "new queen" thing is an aggressive action.

I'm willing to be corrected, but I don't think Airbus has ever used that epithet for the A380, so I don't see where you get "aggressive" from. no 

However, the airlines, press and public will. Ain't nothing anyone can do about it.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
flysherwood
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:56 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 36):
However, the airlines, press and public will. Ain't nothing anyone can do about it.

Super Jumbo or Whalejet has more chances of sticking with the media.  Wink
 
Flighty
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:14 pm

We are getting into a world where the A380 rules the top shelf of routes with the A388 and A389 (which is coming in a short 8 yrs or so).

My view is lately that the 10-abreast 773ER at around 400 pax will massacre the 747 platform once and for all. At 10-abreast, the 777 fully matches the 747 pax capacity except for the upper deck hump.
 
na
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:18 pm

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 34):
To me the 772, A343, 767-300, 757-200 and the A332 look like they are the right length.

I totally agree with you, the 772 and the A332 are the bestlooking twinjets ever (I´ll add to it the 787-8). Their design is aesteciacally just right. The only aircraft that still looks good stretched will be the 747-8I.
I´ve some factory drawings (not the well-known renderings) of the 747-8I that I´m not allowed to share. The design is just perfect.

Quoting Buddys747 (Reply 35):
Let's not forget that there are still a lot of 744 customers out there that don't need to order a VLA anytime soon. By the time they do order, the A380 will be in service a few years and they can see if they really need a much larger aircraft flying around empty seats.

Absolutely, many 744s are not that old that airlines are under pressure before 2010. Not all are like SIA or Emirates who dump any type aircraft after 10-15 years service. Most big 747 operators fly this type until its due for final retirement at around 25 years age (BA, QF, LH, AF, NWA, to name just a few). I also I think that some airlines will find the 747-8I will be the largest they need, and not jump even higher to the A380. Also the 747-8I is as much an A380 competitor as it is to the 773ER (and, less important, the A346). Some airlines with 787s or A350s as future standard longhaul tool won´t need a 773ER when there is a 747-8I.
 
khobar
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:29 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 6):
The following is interesting: In that press statement, they don't compare it to the A380 any more, unlike in previous press releases. IMO this just shows the aircraft complement each other, rather than compete in the same market as many people still think.



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 11):
Not completely true. They have, for quite a long time, claimed the 748i was more efficient than the A380. They no longer seem to be making that claim in this release. Airbus did make quite a fuss some time back because Boeing was using very pessimistic A380 numbers.

"The 747-8 Intercontinental is more than 10 percent lighter per seat than the A380, and consumes 10 percent less fuel per passenger. That translates into a trip-cost reduction of 19 percent and a seat-mile cost reduction of more than 3 percent compared to the A380."

http://boeing.com/commercial/747family/747-8_background.html

And: "The 747-8 Intercontinental is the only jetliner in the 400- to 500-seat market, stretched 5.6 m (18.3 ft) from the 747-400 to provide 467 seats in a three-class configuration and a 14,815-km (8,000-nmi) range. Using 787-technology engines, the airplane will be quieter, produce lower emissions, and achieve better fuel economy than any competing jetliner. Compared to the 747-400, the 747-8 Intercontinental will provide nearly equivalent trip costs and 10 percent lower seat-mile costs, plus 28 percent greater cargo volume. Operating economics will offer a significant improvement over the A380. The 747-8 is more than 11 percent lighter per seat than the A380 and will consume 10 percent less fuel per passenger than the 555-seat airplane. That translates into a trip-cost reduction of 19 percent and a seat-mile cost reduction of more than 3 percent, compared to the A380."

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/747family/747-8_facts.html

Seems nothing has changed, except the A380 is a 525 seater rather than a 555 seater.
 
FlyingAY
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:45 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 29):
I think a 747 looks best when viewed from the rear-quarter, especially on rotation.

I agree, she is not too bad from the other angles. I guess it's just that you can't see the 747 'hump' from the front.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:51 pm

Quoting Khobar (Reply 40):
Seems nothing has changed, except the A380 is a 525 seater rather than a 555 seater.

The point being made was that previously Boeing was very quick to compare the 748i to the A380. This latest announcement doesn't do that. It's mildly interesting.
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q4/071106c_nr.html

I don't think Boeing updates the product pages very often.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
rwessel
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:56 pm

Quoting NA (Reply 39):
Absolutely, many 744s are not that old that airlines are under pressure before 2010. Not all are like SIA or Emirates who dump any type aircraft after 10-15 years service. Most big 747 operators fly this type until its due for final retirement at around 25 years age (BA, QF, LH, AF, NWA, to name just a few). I also I think that some airlines will find the 747-8I will be the largest they need, and not jump even higher to the A380. Also the 747-8I is as much an A380 competitor as it is to the 773ER (and, less important, the A346). Some airlines with 787s or A350s as future standard longhaul tool won´t need a 773ER when there is a 747-8I.

Well, the oldest 744 turns twenty in a couple of months, which likely means that some 500+ 747s will be retiring in the next couple of decades. I think it's reasonable to expect that a fair number of those will be replaced with aircraft of similar size (say from one size down - 777/A3510 - to one size up - A380). So there's at least a fair sized market, just based on replacements, but it doesn't really start for a few years yet.
 
SCAT15F
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:49 am

Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 26):
I guess per the Boeing news release that they didnt gain 200nm to this design. But maybe they'll notice gains after the first bird starts testing.

I don't understand this... Boeing just spent a whole year focusing on weight reduction to gain more range, and two months ago they stated they had gotten an extra 200nm (still short of EK's requirement).

Why in God's name after all that work are they just offering it as it was originally?! Even more so because the A380 now has 8200mn range with 525 pax as the standard offering!

Boeing would have been better off leaving the 748i length at the original 12 foot stretch. Especially since with the upper galley storage option it could still seat 462 pax. Trading 5-17 extra pax for 300nm less range and 10,000lb higher MTOW (with no engine upgrade to compensate) makes no sense to me at all.

All I can say is I am very dissapointed with Boeing, as the 748i could be a much better aircraft without any further investment required.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:55 am

Quoting Atnight (Reply 24):
My opinion? I guess you missed what SQ's Mr. Chew said when he took delivery of the first A380.

I could care less what Mr. Chew says-he is extremely biased towards the A380 (rightfully so and its not a bad thing at all).......ostensibly, it seems as if most are going to be calling the A380 "Super Jumbo"..which is fitting also

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 33):

Not to mention that usurping someone's name, their identity, is one of the most aggressive acts anyone can do. That's what gets people annoyed. By calling it the "new queen" it is an attack, worse than a silly nickname like whalejet. It's saying: "ha, we're better, go screw yourself."

 checkmark ....it's an obvious flagrant attempt at replacing an icon.....the decades of history with the B747 is what sets it apart...

Quoting Flighty (Reply 38):

My view is lately that the 10-abreast 773ER at around 400 pax will massacre the 747 platform once and for all. At 10-abreast, the 777 fully matches the 747 pax capacity except for the upper deck hump.

...not to many carriers will be going 10 across. Many carriers such as SQ and BA will leave 9-across, which will leave a decent-sized gap between the B77W/A350-10 and A388.....many will "straddle" the range (i.e-such as AF) and not purchased the B748I, but carriers such as LH believe that's not the way to go........
"Up the Irons!"
 
eraugrad02
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 44):
I don't understand this... Boeing just spent a whole year focusing on weight reduction to gain more range, and two months ago they stated they had gotten an extra 200nm (still short of EK's requirement).

AMEN!!!

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 44):
Why in God's name after all that work are they just offering it as it was originally?! Even more so because the A380 now has 8200mn range with 525 pax as the standard offering!

Well here's my other question. Even though the max 3-class for 747-8i is 467 pax, LH is putting 400 seats in theirs from what I last read. So with that I wonder what range gain they get from reducing the seat count? If A380 gains 200nm range from reducing 30 seats, I'd think that 747-8i can gain at least 200nm if not 400nm from loosing almost 70 seats. Any thoughts?
Desmond MacRae in ILM
 
SCAT15F
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 46):
Well here's my other question. Even though the max 3-class for 747-8i is 467 pax, LH is putting 400 seats in theirs from what I last read. So with that I wonder what range gain they get from reducing the seat count? If A380 gains 200nm range from reducing 30 seats, I'd think that 747-8i can gain at least 200nm if not 400nm from loosing almost 70 seats. Any thoughts?

I agree... the only reson I can think of is that EK wants more square footage and lots of heavy luxury items (seats) that make the impact of fewer pax negligible. (Which of course flies in the face of seat cost per mile)
 
FAEDC3
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:29 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
If many companies were asking for an 8500nm shorter 748 that's one thing, but that doesn't seem to be the case, as those 500nm between 8000-8500nm have limited value to most other carriers around the world..

What other carriers? I don´t see a long line forming....  Wink
 
EI321
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RE: Boeing Completes Firm Config Of 747-8I

Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:42 am

Quoting FAEDC3 (Reply 48):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
If many companies were asking for an 8500nm shorter 748 that's one thing, but that doesn't seem to be the case, as those 500nm between 8000-8500nm have limited value to most other carriers around the world..

What other carriers? I don´t see a long line forming....

Just wait a few more years , they have to come aventually  Wink