HUbsnotDubs
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What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:10 pm

What plans ( if any ) are in store for a smaller turboprop for the 19 seat to 35 seat range? The newer Turboprops from both ATR and Bombardier are larger and the smaller 'props like the Beech 1900, Brasilia and Saab's arent on the market. Who is going to address this problem and when? thanks!
 
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lightsaber
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:45 am

Quoting HUbsnotDubs (Thread starter):
What plans ( if any ) are in store for a smaller turboprop for the 19 seat to 35 seat range?

There is nothing in development.  Sad

Most likely it will be ATR, Bombardier, or Embraer; but not for years. The current turboprops have a bit of life left in them. Only when the market is begging for a new small turboprop will one be developed. That won't happen before 2015.

But there is a catch to this: the VLJ's. That's right, they might effectively displace the small turboprop market. Whatever turboprop is envisioned for sale in 2015 will have to compete against air Taxi operators flying the Adam, Honda, Embraer, and Cessna VLJ's. Personally, that could be enough to kill off the short hop market.

My prediction even includes an estimate of ever increasing fuel prices. Customers like jets. Let's face it, we fly to save time over driving (or a boat).

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
Boston92
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:49 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 1):
Customers like jets. Let's face it, we fly to save time over driving (or a boat).

Yeah, but turboprops can eaisly be made to fly 40 pax at 350 knots using less fuel than a jet on short routes, and hopefully the regionals will keep turboprops around until a jet can be made as economical.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
HUbsnotDubs
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:50 am

I just see such a market for turboprops especially with new technology...those Becch's and Basilila's are old and for some reason the D 328 never meade a dent...
 
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lightsaber
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 2):
Yeah, but turboprops can eaisly be made to fly 40 pax at 350 knots using less fuel than a jet on short routes, and hopefully the regionals will keep turboprops around until a jet can be made as economical.

True.

But as my sister points out, Platinum frequent fliers don't like spinny thingies on the wings.  Wink


I hope their is a new turboprop, but the market isn't yet ready to support the development of a new one. Would a carbon fiber turboprop even further reduce fuel burn? Heck yes! But it must be developed cheap. In other words, I fear it might come from China or Russia.  Sad Not that they can't make planes, I'd just rather see soemthing from Beech, Bombardier, or Embraer who all have a tradition of supporting their product. Heck, maybe Honda will realize there is a market opportunity.  Wink

Lightsaber
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EMBQA
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting HUbsnotDubs (Thread starter):
Who is going to address this problem and when?

Ever heard of the used aircraft market...?? Its actually quite hot right now.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:21 am

I doubt small turboprops will ever be marketed again.

Markets that can't support a modern "full size" turboprop just simply won't get served. People can learn to take the bus to a major airport, as the economics of a 19 seat turboprop are just not there. People can't accept that it costs more a person to fly 60-100 miles to a major airport in the tiny little plane than it does to fly coast to coast in a 200+ seat jet.
 
YVRLTN
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 6):
People can learn to take the bus to a major airport, as the economics of a 19 seat turboprop are just not there

For the most part I agree, but in regions like Alaska and northern Canada and in other lesser developed countries too where there is awkward terrain, islands, snow and ice, jungle, few roads, poor landing strips and minimal facilities, these small B1900's etc are the vital lifeline, so there will always be a market for such planes.

Its interesting to note that Viking are restarting Twin Otter production, dubbed the 400 srs so this would be ideal for such remote locations (and has also received orders from the Maldives & Seychelles amongst others), but other than that, if a Dash 8 / ATR42 cant be abused / not enough room, then the way to go will be more frequent flights on King Air's, PC12's and the like, but that will be years away before that starts happening en masse, all these small props seem to be tough machines and will be around for a good while yet, and there are a lot of them when we include the likes of the Jetstreams & Metroliners on top of your list too, not to mentions scores of Czech L410's outside of North America - and even when all these have died, there will still be DC3's flying around  Wink To clarify, I am specifically talking about special geographical conditions, not rural airports to hubs etc, where I agree with XT6, and the birds that were once used on these flights will end up doing this sort of work - and such operators cant afford to acquire and support new metal anyway, so they are happy picking them up at 2nd / 3rd / 8th / 15th hand prices.
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ADent
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:25 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 7):
People can learn to take the bus to a major airport, as the economics of a 19 seat turboprop are just not there.

I thought the bus was terminated in large swaths of the US, particularly those locations not on an interstate.
 
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:31 am

Quoting HUbsnotDubs (Reply 3):
D 328 never meade a dent...

The Dornier 328 was a great aircraft, once it got in the air, flew on many of those when PSA (USAirways Express) used to fly them. A fast climb and a smooth ride. Some of the pilots I knew who flew them said that they were MTC. hogs and that hurt their ability to stay with the airlines who purchased them. PSA eventually replaced the entire fleet of D328's with the RJ's. I am not sure who, if anybody, still flys the D328 today.
 
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 8):
I thought the bus was terminated in large swaths of the US, particularly those locations not on an interstate

Yes. For the most part, people don't connect from bus to plane. They go from car to plane. Some sort of through ticketing arrangement, or "intermodel codeshare" could change that eventually, but it doesn't seem to be on the way at all.

In large parts of the USA intercity busses have a very "trashy" reputation. People who fly anywhere near routinely would
not be caught dead in one. Its sad but true.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:50 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 8):
I thought the bus was terminated in large swaths of the US, particularly those locations not on an interstate.

Grayhound goes most places in the lower 48. If you don't live in a place big enough for bus service... then you more or less HAVE to own a car to survive.
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:01 am

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 10):

Well from Madison, WI to ORD or MDW there actually is a great shuttle service provided from VanGalder Bus. You used to be able to get 500 Frequent Flier Miles for AA on those rides, but I don't know if that still applies, since I am a SkyTeam guy.
A good idea and solution though, IMHO.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
2175301
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:06 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 11):
Grayhound goes most places in the lower 48.

Greyhound has virtually vanished in the Midwest. I just looked at the Midwest route map - and the only places that Greyhound has listed as main stops are places that are big enough to be served by the airlines. The routes are currently exclusively along the interstates.

www.greyhound.com/locations/routemap/2c.html

I used to rid Greyhound a lot - and even worked at a small town ticket agent location. I'd suggest that almost 90% of the old routs no longer exist.

The best bus service in Wisconsin is between Madison and Milwaukee by Badger (and I note that there is no longer a Greyhound bus terminal in Madison Wisconsin, and hasn't been one for decades - instead they use the Badger Bus terminal).
 
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:12 am

RUAG is going to resume production of the Dornier 228-200, their board has already approved this. Final assembly to be in Germany, parts coming from all over the world, with a big chunk coming from HAL. Target market is mainly the special mission market, but IMO there will be quite a bit or airline demand as well. Production to resume in 2009. Avionic etc all to be brought to newest standards.
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speedbird2263
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:23 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 1):
But there is a catch to this: the VLJ's. That's right, they might effectively displace the small turboprop market. Whatever turboprop is envisioned for sale in 2015 will have to compete against air Taxi operators flying the Adam, Honda, Embraer, and Cessna VLJ's. Personally, that could be enough to kill off the short hop market.

The day that the VLJ market effectively 'kills' the small Turboprop Market i.e. B1900's and Saabs size class, is the day that I admit to have seen it all. sigh  To be frank American's in general have always liked 'BIG', which can be seen in the ever increasing size of personal craft, however their's also an attraction to Jet's, which explains the VLJ market. The idea is to make the smallest Jet possible that it may be available to a greater number of potential owner/operators due mainly to the significantly lower cost of a VLJ. Now having been to airshow's and personally sitting in the Eclipse, Mustang and mock-ups of the D-Jet and Piper-Jet, I just cant see how they are going to be adapted to commercial ops of carrying 4/5 ppl the most and being significantly more efficient at it than the small turboprop while commanding the same market share of passengers.

Now im not saying that the VLJ market is/isnt there, but it certainly wont infringe upon the small turboprop market significantly. If anything as has been mentioned, the small turboprop market may be replaced by the medium craft market as we see a trend in both manufacturers building larger aircraft and airlines purchasing them. eg. CRJ1000, E190, D8-400X, etc.
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columba
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:53 am

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 14):
RUAG is going to resume production of the Dornier 228-200, their board has already approved this. Final assembly to be in Germany, parts coming from all over the world, with a big chunk coming from HAL. Target market is mainly the special mission market, but IMO there will be quite a bit or airline demand as well. Production to resume in 2009. Avionic etc all to be brought to newest standards

Yes, I have read that and wanted to post it here,too also I think to have read that the DHC 6 Twin Otter will also be produced again since there is nothing on the market to replace those aircraft.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
HUbsnotDubs
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:47 pm

Honda, Cessna, Cirrus and even eclipse at something long a large enough VLJ or mybe a 19seat advance turboprop.....the market is there
 
YVRLTN
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:00 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 8):
I thought the bus was terminated in large swaths of the US, particularly those locations not on an interstate.

My point was that the US commuter market will gradually change so that people will have to get to the airport overland (bus / car / bike / horse & cart) as opposed to flying in a small prop - and I was quoting XT6.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 9):
I am not sure who, if anybody, still flys the D328 today

Cant think of any in the US, but Jazz partner CMA have acquired 2 fairly recently for routes within BC & AB and Scotairways in the UK have quite a few.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
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Devilfish
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:36 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 4):
Not that they can't make planes, I'd just rather see soemthing from Beech, Bombardier, or Embraer who all have a tradition of supporting their product.

I wonder what's keeping Piaggio from coming out with a 19 or 35 seater version of the Avanti.....

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.....in addition to the ubiquitous but hopefully similarly updated L-420.....

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scrumpy492003
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:49 am

Have to remember, that the Twin Otter is hardly ...

1, comfortable
2, fast, cruising at around 165 kts or so!!

Sure very hardy craft, specialty craft, BUT hardly for the mainstream commuter traffic, just the Northern remote places. In those places their value is more than that of Gold, because they are so versatile, with floats, skiis, wheels and the amphibs etc. unprepared places and highways, taking off and stopping on a dime etc.

BUT

The North is distinct in it's requirements, the only time quick planes are needed are for medevacs and company Presidents etc. the rest of the time belongs to the workhorses, beavers, Otters, C185's, Murphy craft also.

Anyway,
The DC3 is still around as well as a Connie or two (I think).

peter
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HUbsnotDubs
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:48 am

The Avanti would be a very nice EAS route sub over a Beech 1900
 
cofannyc
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:27 pm

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 13):
Greyhound has virtually vanished in the Midwest. I just looked at the Midwest route map - and the only places that Greyhound has listed as main stops are places that are big enough to be served by the airlines. The routes are currently exclusively along the interstates.

I don't mean to hijack the thread and turn it into a Greyhound thread, but the Greyhound "route map" is only a glimpse of what they serve. According to the route map, they only serve 7 places in Wisconsin. In reality, they serve close to 40:

http://www.greyhound.com/scripts/en/...icketCenter/locations.asp?state=wi
 
acelanzarote
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:52 pm

Perhaps ATR could make a ATR22 or something simlair?
Alot of B1900's/Metro's/EMB120's are used for cargo. Someday they will
need replacing .....
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HUbsnotDubs
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:43 pm

Has a new EMB-120 been looked at?
 
vfw614
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:25 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 1):
My prediction even includes an estimate of ever increasing fuel prices. Customers like jets. Let's face it, we fly to save time over driving (or a boat).

If customer wishes were the only consideration, all airlines would fly the Concorde NG nowadays....

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 9):
I am not sure who, if anybody, still flys the D328 today.

Plenty of airlines in Europe. Over here, the folks are not nearly as prop-phobic as in the US.




Generally, it is telling that production of both the Twin Otter and the Dornier 228 is to be resumed in the 19 seater class. Both are not typical feederliner aircraft (not pressurised etc.), but designed to earn their keep in the jungles and the wilderness, so to speak.

[Edited 2007-11-09 11:26:57]
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:32 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 1):
There is nothing in development.

There are a few actually;

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 14):
RUAG is going to resume production of the Dornier 228-200, their board has already approved this. Final assembly to be in Germany, parts coming from all over the world, with a big chunk coming from HAL. Target market is mainly the special mission market, but IMO there will be quite a bit or airline demand as well. Production to resume in 2009. Avionic etc all to be brought to newest standards.

There is also the upgraded Harbin Y-12 IV "Twin Panda" seating about 10, which will no doubt sell models in the South East Asia region and, with its updated avionics may well spread out a little further - it's idea for island operation from short runways. At the other end, the Dash 8-Q200 is still manufactured, that seats from 37 people, so whilst there is a gap in the middle, it's not a sector which has been completely neglected. I'm sure though that there is at least one manufacturer looking at that big gap and considering a design for 25-30 pax.


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eraugrad02
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:37 pm

Someone should build the J-32 again. I enjoyed flying on the mosquito.
Desmond MacRae in ILM
 
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Devilfish
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:50 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 26):
I'm sure though that there is at least one manufacturer looking at that big gap and considering a design for 25-30 pax.


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Sukhoi tried. But their multi-purpose, twin-boom solution did not find converts among the legions inured to tube-and-wing designs - even with GE engines and Rockwell Collins avionics.....

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2175301
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting COFanNYC (Reply 22):
I don't mean to hijack the thread and turn it into a Greyhound thread, but the Greyhound "route map" is only a glimpse of what they serve. According to the route map, they only serve 7 places in Wisconsin. In reality, they serve close to 40:

Every one of those stops is along the routes on that route map.

The old Greyhound route map used to look like a massive spider web for the state of Wisconsin - and probably 500 + stops existed. I believe that was common for most states as well.

What I really don't understand on the new route map is the lack of a route between Green Bay and EauClaire (with a major stop at Wausau) and a route going north from Madison up the center of the state - with major stops at Stevens Point, Wausau, and Rhinelander. Those are both routes I and others I know used to use fairly extensively (decades ago)

In the end, people have generally stopped taking the bus - leaving large portions of many states unserved compared to the past.

Greyhound is no longer a viable option for many.
 
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czbbflier
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:34 am

My guess is that when it comes to developing a new turboprop, don't look to Canada. Canada is terrible at innovation... The Dash 8 is essentially a 30 year-old design starting with the Dash 7. Just stretch it here, pull it out here and voila! a Q400!

The Canadair (Bombardier) CRJ is based on the Challenger jet which first flew in 1987- 20 years ago. I don't see any significant design changes there either... a stretch here, a couple of wing-tips.... Rumors of an underwing engined Bombardier jet didn't come to fruition- my guess it was a scribble on the back of Laurentide beer bottle label and that's as far as it got.

(Just like the Avro Arrow engineers and designers who got siphoned off to help create the Concorde, the Space Shuttle and other similarly famous projects, I'll bet that the guy who designed the underwing-engined Bombardier jet while having is beer got a better offer from Sukhoi.)
 
Alessandro
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:44 am

I doubt any manufacturer can make money from this size plane? Perhaps India can sell some Dornier-228s?

[Edited 2007-11-10 19:46:39]
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Alessandro
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:49 am

Devilfish, problem is that Sukhoi don´t have a trackrecord for civilian planes. Many military plane manufacturer tried to
make civilian planes and failed to make money, Lockheed, SAAB, Dassault to mention a few...
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
tdscanuck
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting Czbbflier (Reply 30):
The Canadair (Bombardier) CRJ is based on the Challenger jet which first flew in 1987- 20 years ago.

Also true of the 737, 747, 767, and A320. That doesn't automatically mean they're bad at innovation.

Tom.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:07 pm

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 32):
problem is that Sukhoi don´t have a trackrecord for civilian planes.

Not passenger planes, but.....

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And that did not deter them from embarking on this.....

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If only the Russians could shed their poor after sales image and invest more in improving the Su-80, I believe it has the right attributes to be a success in the niche occupied by the Let 410 and Beech 1900, and perhaps the Twotter's domain too.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 32):
Many military plane manufacturer tried to make civilian planes and failed to make money, Lockheed, SAAB, Dassault to mention a few...

That doesn't necessarily mean they will never make money doing it. Maybe Lockheed just realized that more money could be made in the military sector. And SAAB's 340s and 2000s were enjoying a pretty decent run until the advent of the RJs - and could very well see their parked planes ressurrected given the current fuel prices. I doubt Dassault is losing money making these and all of the hundreds before.....

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It's more likely they're losing money on the Rafale now.
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CJAContinental
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:27 pm

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 2):
hopefully the regionals will keep turboprops

They do sound really cool when they're taking off.
Work Hard/Fly Right.
 
Alessandro
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:48 pm

Tristar was a very costly experience for Lockheed, SAAB lost money on the 340/2000, especially the latter.
Dassault lost money on the Mercure.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
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falstaff
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:50 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 8):
I thought the bus was terminated in large swaths of the US, particularly those locations not on an interstate.

. That is true. I

A lot of people would never ride the bus because a lot of "undesirable" people ride the bus. I certainly wouldn't want to be riding the bus next to some stinky bum. Riding a bus in the USA can be an adventure.

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 29):
Greyhound is no longer a viable option for many.

That is also the case for passenger rail service.

Even if you could take the train of bus to a city then get on a plane you may have a far drive from the terminal to the airport.
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YULWinterSkies
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:47 pm

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 25):
Over here, the folks are not nearly as prop-phobic as in the US.

Do you mean most people notice the "turboprop service" note when they book their tickets? "hey dad, look, that's a turboprop!" -"no, i believe that's a 737 jet!"
When I doubt... go running!
 
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Devilfish
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:26 am

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 36):
Tristar was a very costly experience for Lockheed

It had been financially challenging to them at first, but the bulk of the problem was with Rolls-Royce who went bankrupt developing the three-spool RB-211, rubbing the malaise on the whole L-1011 program. But they couldn't have reached 300 airframes including fifty -500s if they were producing each subsequent frame at a loss. And it's not like Lockheed hadn't successfully done passenger planes before given the Connies and Electras everywhere.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 36):
SAAB lost money on the 340/2000

Which they could possibly recover by reopening the line, or by leasing out, selling and converting their portfolio of managed assets.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 36):
Dassault lost money on the Mercure.

That must have pointed them in the right direction regarding which civilian products to pursue.

The point is, a manufacturer could fail or succeed on a particular project, but not solely due to it being a different complexion.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
HUbsnotDubs
Topic Author
Posts: 49
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:42 am

Quoting Czbbflier (Reply 30):



Quoting Czbbflier (Reply 30):
The Canadair (Bombardier) CRJ is based on the Challenger jet which first flew in 1987- 20 years ago. I don't see any significant design changes there either... a stretch here, a couple of wing-tips....

I think this is a bittersweet statement as while it is somewhat true it is very hard to compare the Challenger and a new CRJ 900. However if you do think that way why cant Gulfstream just stretch and get in on the very lucrative RJ scene?
 
747fan
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:18 pm

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 35):
They do sound really cool when they're taking off.

I do have to agree with you on that, they sound nice inside and outside. Although its obviously not a regional turboprop, there's nothing like the sound of the (smoky) Allison T56 on the Lockheed C-130! What a sound; it definitely gives me chills up my spine. I hear those things all the time as there's a National Guard base at SDF; often times, 2 or 3 takeoff in very quick succession (less than 30 seconds apart).

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 25):
Plenty of airlines in Europe. Over here, the folks are not nearly as prop-phobic as in the US.

They are definitely more economical on shorter routes (less than 200 miles) than RJ's. You can't always satisfy a customer; if that was the case, we'd probably be seeing widebodies on literally every airline route in the U.S. Yes, they're noisy and don't fly at a high cruising altitude, occasionally causing a rather interesting (but enjoyable for me) ride. But honestly, on a route that's under 200 miles long, there's not that much of a time difference between a jet and a prop. Plus, if I'm not mistaken, the prop would be cheaper to operate as it would burn less fuel, which is important in this age of $90-100 oil barrel prices.
You also have to consider that these 19-34 seat props serve many destination from hubs that wouln't get any scheduled airline service if it wasn't for aircraft such as the Beech 1900, Saab 340, and Embraer 120. A few examples of such service is Mesaba's Saab 340 service from MSP to smaller Upper Midwest cities, such as Waterloo, IA; St. Cloud, MN; Rhinelander, WI; Aberdeen, SD; and International Falls, MN.
Continental also has similar service out of IAH Colgan SF34's to smaller Texas cities, such as College Station and Tyler.
 
HUbsnotDubs
Topic Author
Posts: 49
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:54 pm

Quoting Czbbflier (Reply 30):



Quoting Czbbflier (Reply 30):
The Canadair (Bombardier) CRJ is based on the Challenger jet which first flew in 1987- 20 years ago. I don't see any significant design changes there either... a stretch here, a couple of wing-tips....

I think this is a bittersweet statement as while it is somewhat true it is very hard to compare the Challenger and a new CRJ 900. However if you do think that way why cant Gulfstream just stretch and get in on the very lucrative RJ scene?
 
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czbbflier
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:40 am



Quoting Czbbflier (Reply 30):
Rumors of an underwing engined Bombardier jet didn't come to fruition

Reading the thread about the P&W engines and the new C-Series aircraft, at least when it comes to the jets, perhaps I spoke too soon!

Now for deHavilland to cough up with something..... (But then again, SAS notwithstanding, they seem to still have some momentum with the Q400....)

Quoting HUbsnotDubs (Reply 40):
why cant Gulfstream just stretch and get in on the very lucrative RJ scene?

Why not indeed?
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 3989
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:15 am



Quoting HUbsnotDubs (Reply 42):
However if you do think that way why cant Gulfstream just stretch and get in on the very lucrative RJ scene?

I reckon that all we'd get is another 4 wide rj in an already crowded market. The margins on biz jets are way higher, in any case.
What the...?
 
OB1504
Posts: 3029
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:28 am



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 32):
Many military plane manufacturer tried to make civilian planes and failed to make money, Lockheed, SAAB, Dassault to mention a few...

Lockheed had a long and colorful history of civilian aircraft manufacturing, producing airplanes like the Vega, Electra, Constellation, and finally, the Tristar. They weren't solely a military manufacturer when they created the Tristar.

Quoting 747fan (Reply 41):
Plus, if I'm not mistaken, the prop would be cheaper to operate as it would burn less fuel, which is important in this age of $90-100 oil barrel prices.

 checkmark  People are willing to live with spinny things on the engines if it gets them there cheaper.
 
HUbsnotDubs
Topic Author
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:02 am



Quoting OB1504 (Reply 45):
People are willing to live with spinny things on the engines if it gets them there cheaper.

True ... very true people buy there tix for the cheapest price most of the time and any do not know what a B-717 is to a B-1900...that is until they get to the gate and board!
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:53 am



Quoting HUbsnotDubs (Reply 46):
True ... very true people buy there tix for the cheapest price most of the time and any do not know what a B-717 is to a B-1900...that is until they get to the gate and board!

I have never seen a person turn away from a flight because it was a turboprop. From what I have seen, most people end up being cool about it after their first flight. They usually realise it was not such a big deal after all.
What the...?
 
access-air
Posts: 1576
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 5:30 pm

RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:11 pm



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 4):
But as my sister points out, Platinum frequent fliers don't like spinny thingies on the wings.

Well it seems that if they spend enuff money to have Platnum status they should just charter their own private jets.....Then they wont have to see thos old fashioned spinny things out on the wing....

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 6):
doubt small turboprops will ever be marketed again.

Markets that can't support a modern "full size" turboprop just simply won't get served. People can learn to take the bus to a major airport, as the economics of a 19 seat turboprop are just not there.

Oh, Gimme a break.......And just why should people in smaller communities be forced into their cars or on a bus....Thats usually what people in Large Hub airports say about WE smaller communities.

For too long US aircraft manufacturers ingnored the need for 20-50 passenger range of airliners and they really missed the boat and left those all up to other countries to build. Now we are quite without suitable aircraft to effectively serve smaller to medium sized cities...Anything that was suiteable (other than Beech 99s, Twin Otters and Metros seating 15-19 passengers) were hand me downs from local service airlines like Convair 580/6700/640 aircraft or Fairchild F-27/FH-227 or Martin 404s and DC3s which some cases were too large take over routes from that only required a 20-30 seat capacity of aircraft type. Thats why the Shorts 330 and SAAB 340 came aboout....Some carriers were stuck with an agaonizing gap between their smallest aircraft carrying 15 passenger Beech 99s or 19 seat Metros, but also flying an 40-44 seat F-27 which were in soem cases too large....So they either had to turn people away or lose money flying around with empty seats....Some 25-27 passenger Nord 262s and the then new Shorts 330 helped to bridge that gap...

I dont understand why the FAA decided to require 10-19 passenger aircraft to upgrade from Part 135 to Part 121....That is mainly the reason why operating the 19 seat planes like the B1900 and Metroliner have become cost prohibitive and almost require a government subsidy to be flown.....If the FAA decides to enforce the same Part 121 rules on smaller airlines Like Cape Air that fly the 9 passenger Cessan 402s, they are finished!!!! The FAA needs to relax that Part 121 regulation and adjust the Part 135 regs. to inlcude 19 Passenger aircraft operations once again. It would certainly help smaller carriers to once more afford to serve smaller communities.

As for trying to convert the Piaggio Avanti to carry passengers on a high frequency type of schedule, I really dont believe they would be that suitable...Beside can you imagine trying to coax passengers on something that looks like a Catfish with wings with shiny spinny things near the tail??? LOL..(Yes I think the Avanti looks like a Catfish) ....
You have to produce something that is both rugged and resonably priced to cope with the riggors of high frequency flights of many stops or operations. Converting Business Props and Jets to this simply isnt worth it...

Altho I recently found out that the Beech 99 production rigs at Raytheon have been dismantled, we really do need another airliner like that. Small Unpressurized and able to take a beating and still perform. Even the Metro or the 1900, however a pressurized adds weight and a more complicated aircraft system.. An hour or less to sit on an unpressurized plane is NOT an unreasonable thing to do. There was nothing wrong with the Shorts 330s and 360s. They did the job and made money.....
We are seeing history repeat itself....The Local Service Airlines of the 50s-70s were flying older prop planes mostly from other airlines and servinmg smaller communities....The minute they had the oppportunity to buy jets like DC9s or BAC One Elevens, all of a sudden serving the smaller communities became too small to serve and they were all turned over to the small commuter airlines that are now the Large Regionals that fly today that are now abandoning the smaller commuinities that the Locals did way back when....So now that we have more Regulations for smaller carriers than we used to namely the Part 121 for 19 seaters, a new crop of smaller airline is virtually impossible because ist just too costly...So these poor communities are screwed.....Even Federal, state or local subsidies dont even begin to cover these costs.....Perhaps some time soon regualtions will be re-written and solve these problems....

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
HUbsnotDubs
Topic Author
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:14 am

RE: What Will Replace The Smaller Turboprops?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:43 pm

Access-Air-

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 48):
Oh, Gimme a break.......And just why should people in smaller communities be forced into their cars or on a bus....Thats usually what people in Large Hub airports say about WE smaller communities.

I couldn't agree more, and you make many very good points. I think that the Part 121 regs are here to stay as bad as that might hurt the smaller props. I do not know the numbers or stats but I would be curious to find out what role the smallest turboprops in each airlines service play. Also, what is the cost benifit to use a used airframe instead of a new one...there are plenty of Jetstreams, Saabs and Dorniers just sun tanning away in the desert... (Thoses D 328's really werent old at all)

Any input is greatly appreciated guys thanks!

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