Evan767
Topic Author
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Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:48 am

Why is everyone just sitting back watching Delta rake in a gold mine? I think it's great for Delta but I'm just confused as to why next summer they will have seven destinations in Africa and not one other major will even step foot there. It's an entire continent that's underserved!

Is it aircraft utilization? We see AA starting flights from JFK-BCN, and a few other places in Europe, but all those flights already have a bunch of competition. With CO taking away HNL-NGO, why not put that aircraft on EWR-LOS? I bet we will see something like EWR-LYS instead.

I am happy to see that my favorite airline will be making loads of cash on these flights to Africa. Maybe they'll even add a couple of more destinations while the others sit back and gawk. We'll have to see.




Delta's routes to Africa next summer:
ATL-DKR-JNB
ATL-LOS
JFK-DKR-CPT
JFK-DKR-NBO
JFK-LOS
JFK-ACC
JFK-CAI

I have one more question: Why is it that Delta will be flying to Lagos next month, when Continental wasn't allowed to fly there? When Delta announced this back in February, many people doubted this flight would ever get off the ground. We are just a couple weeks away from the inagural and flights are already full for days.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
BAKJet
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:56 am

There probably isn't enough traffic to justify more than one US major carrier to Africa and Delta is already there.

[Edited 2007-11-10 18:56:31]
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:00 am

Quoting BAKJet (Reply 1):
There probably isn't enough traffic to justify more than one US major carrier to Africa and Delta is already there.

Of course there is.

Delta is just a bigger risk taker than other airlines, and flying to Africa involves financial risks, uncertaintity of the market's stability, and high start up and security costs that Delta is willing to spend and others are not. Delta also has more aircraft available for expansion, and a flight to Africa might sometimes require longer turn-arounds just by the nature of the airport so utilization can potentially be high. It's easier to enter a market like Barcelona than it is to start flying to Accra.

You will see other U.S. carriers enter the Africa market in due time. American, Continental, and United, through Miami, Newark, and Dulles, respectively, have perfect hubs to exploit this market. It is only a matter of when, not if, and I would not be shocked to see CO in Africa by 2009, and American by 2011.

In a way, Delta is doing all the dirty work for them. They are showing there is a profitable market, establishing U.S. carriers in the region, leading towards significant security upgrades at African airports (I'm not sure if Delta financially helps in this arena, but I think, at least with Lagos, they have), and reducing the financial risks for others. Delta has the benefit of establishing themselves first, but if other airlines like what Delta is doing, they will copy. Airlines are happy to sitback and watch what Delta does. They don't need to worry about being "locked out" in the future. There will be room for AA, CO, and UA to enter when they want to.

[Edited 2007-11-10 19:08:04]
a.
 
avek00
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:05 am

Quoting Evan767 (Thread starter):
Is it aircraft utilization?

That's one of the top three constraints. The other two are a near-total lack of market presence (recall that DL did brisk business to Africa via codeshares with AF and before then SR/SN) and a highly frustrating regulatory environment.
Live life to the fullest.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:05 am

Questions like this always amaze me.

It's all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

If other airlines felt they could operate routes between North American and Africa and earn a profit, they would be doing it.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:07 am

I am sure the other carriers are more then happy to have DL go into Africa and sit back and watch what happens for now. Right now there are plenty of markets that do not require the risks that Africa does.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
commavia
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:07 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
You will see other U.S. carriers enter the Africa market in due time. American, Continental, and United, through Miami, Newark, and Dulles, respectively, have perfect hubs to exploit this market. It is only a matter of when, not if, and I would not be shocked to see CO in Africa by 2009, and American by 2011.

I could see, economic and security conditions permitting:

United

IAD-LOS (daily 763)

Continental

EWR-LOS (daily 762-possibly 764)
EWR-DKR (daily 762)

American

MIA-ACC-NBO (3-4x weekly 763)
MIA-DKR-BJL (3-4x weekly 763)
MIA-LOS-JNB (daily 763-possibly 777 if they have it)
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:10 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 6):
American

MIA-ACC-NBO (3-4x weekly 763)
MIA-DKR-BJL (3-4x weekly 763)
MIA-LOS-JNB (daily 763-possibly 777 if they have it)

I personally don't think NBO or BJL would be likely, but rather, possibly a schedule of two daily flights to South Africa - one each to Cape Town and Jo'Burg - with the Jo'Burg flight stopping daily in Lagos, and the Cape Town flight alternating between Accra and Dakar. I think that would be a great initial way for AA to launch into Africa.
a.
 
Mike89406
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:13 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 4):
Questions like this always amaze me.

It's all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

If other airlines felt they could operate routes between North American and Africa and earn a profit, they would be doing it.


Then if what I'm hearing is correct DL is doing pretty good in the Africa market so far why is DL the only one there? So by you're analogy If it's about money then CO and other carriers are losing out. And eventually DL will have a stronger hold in Africa providing the market stays decent. And If I'm not mistaken some African carriers arent performing as well these days.

Just my 2 cents.

Mike

[Edited 2007-11-10 19:15:17]
 
Evan767
Topic Author
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:39 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 4):
If other airlines felt they could operate routes between North American and Africa and earn a profit, they would be doing it.

But they aren't...

Responses like this always amaze me...

It is after all, all about the money.

Africa = $$$
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
IADCA
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 3):
The other two are a near-total lack of market presence (recall that DL did brisk business to Africa via codeshares with AF and before then SR/SN) and a highly frustrating regulatory environment.

That regulatory environment gets a lot more friendly if you have the right contacts in the right governments, which may or may not involve the right, um, regulatory fees paid. As mentioned, DL's business relationships are better established in Africa.

It would seem logical that there would probably be an uptick in Africa service with the introduction of 787s. They've got the range to make some of these routes work that are a bit tough for 767s and the right capacity for many of the routes.
 
KL577
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:51 am

Quoting Evan767 (Thread starter):
I have one more question: Why is it that Delta will be flying to Lagos next month, when Continental wasn't allowed to fly there?

Because the Nigerian authorities refused landing rights to CO, when VK was not allowed to serve the US. US authorities refused to give landing rights to VK, since they considered it a British airline. This was all of sudden no problem anymore when the EU-US open skies agreement was approved: in the same days VA was approved and all political barriers for VK to serve the US were removed. This cleared the skies for DL to get approval for LOS, and I guess CO lost appetite for the time being. But did DL get the final nod from Nigerian authorities yet?
 
Ramik
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:04 am

I believe that after MS joined star alliance UA might introduce CAI-IAD or CAI-ORD. At the very least if this happens then DL might see some future competition on it new routes !!
 
davescj
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:25 am

Remember, Skyteam has extensive connections into Africa via Air France and Kenyan Airways, BA has oneworld connections, and SAA does Star alliance. I'm sure there are more, but those are all big codeshare partners, I believe.

I wouldn't be surprised to see more US carriers going into Africa. I think DL is smart by starting to build up there now.

Dave
Can I have a mojito on this flight?
 
wjcandee
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:45 pm

For what it's worth, North American did the advance work for DL by showing that Accra and Lagos could be operated safely and profitably.
 
Evan767
Topic Author
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:52 pm

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 20):
You didn't, I questioned him. Actually, you were the one I first questioned about where your info came from.

My info comes from people like Alitalia744, and I trust him. Happy?
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
bobnwa
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:54 pm

Quoting Evan767 (Thread starter):
Why is everyone just sitting back watching Delta rake in a gold mine?

Are there any indications that this is true. Sources?
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:07 pm

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 15):
Are there any indications that this is true. Sources?

Africa is doing well.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4473
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:50 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 16):
Africa is doing well.

It very well might be true, but no one other than a few insiders at DL would know that. If you are one, then thanks for your prompt answer, if you aren't one then..................................
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:03 pm

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 17):
It very well might be true, but no one other than a few insiders at DL would know that. If you are one, then thanks for your prompt answer, if you aren't one then

Trust it's doing well. Whether I am "DL" or not is not the question.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
Evan767
Topic Author
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:13 pm

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 15):
Are there any indications that this is true. Sources?



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 16):
Africa is doing well.



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 17):
It very well might be true, but no one other than a few insiders at DL would know that. If you are one, then thanks for your prompt answer, if you aren't one then..................................

I wouldn't question him....

[Edited 2007-11-11 08:15:04]
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
bobnwa
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:52 pm

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 19):
I wouldn't question him....

You didn't, I questioned him. Actually, you were the one I first questioned about where your info came from.
 
EPCOT
Posts: 19
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:19 pm

There are a lot of people on here with very reliable information that cannot divulge its source, or their real identity because of their job. Financial details about the profitability of the Africa routes would obviously not be meant for public consumption. You can believe him, or not believe him. Just because he doesn't cite a Wall Street Journal article showing Delta made a bizillion dollars on the routes, doesn't mean it isn't true.... Or he could just be a 12 year old plane spotter  Wink

Take everything you read on here as rumor and heresay. Just remember, many rumors are actually true, or at least based in truth.

Cheers

EPCOT
 
rwsea
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:42 pm

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 8):
Then if what I'm hearing is correct DL is doing pretty good in the Africa market so far why is DL the only one there? SO by you;re analogy If it's about money then CO and other carriers are losing out. And eventually DL will have a stronghold in Africa providing the market stays decent. And If I'm not mistaken some African carriers arent performing as well/

The problem is that none of the other US carriers (esp. CO) have the aircraft to launch these longer flights. DL does so they have the advantage for the time being. AA might have the availability, but they're much more conservative and likely won't add Africa for a couple more years. But the rumors persist that they will. CO is most likely but they can't expand their long-haul network until the 787s arrive.

UA is the other likely option - they have an aircraft shortage as well but somehow keep adding flights to China and from LAX.

Quoting KL577 (Reply 11):
Because the Nigerian authorities refused landing rights to CO, when VK was not allowed to serve the US. US authorities refused to give landing rights to VK, since they considered it a British airline. This was all of sudden no problem anymore when the EU-US open skies agreement was approved: in the same days VA was approved and all political barriers for VK to serve the US were removed. This cleared the skies for DL to get approval for LOS, and I guess CO lost appetite for the time being. But did DL get the final nod from Nigerian authorities yet?

Good to know. DL must be expecting huge profits in LOS now that they're proposing *two* daily flights. It is also frequently mentioned that LOS might be a good candidate as a first stop in a tag-on flight, so I'm assuming 5th freedom rights are available there.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:51 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
and American by 2011.

why that particular year?

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 22):
My info comes from people like Alitalia744, and I trust him.

Why? LOL.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ikramerica
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:06 pm

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 9):
Africa = $$$

why is delta completely ignoring Asia? i mean, if we are going to ask why others are not focusing on africa, isn't this also a fair question?

answer is, limited widebodies available, and other airlines have decided that ASIA=$$$ while DL has decided that AFRICA=$$$.

Who's wrong? Probably nobody...  Wink
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:09 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
why is delta completely ignoring Asia?

Curious:
how exactly does adding four Asian nonstops in the last three years, on top of several others planned... count as "completely ignoring Asia" in your world?

[Edited 2007-11-11 12:10:01]
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
dfwmzuri
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:20 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
why is delta completely ignoring Asia? i mean, if we are going to ask why others are not focusing on africa, isn't this also a fair question?

I was thinking this thought as I read the responses. I know the AA flight I took to DEL was full. I also know the 2 BA and 1 SN flights I took to NBO were also full. I would love to see more options to Africa and hope AA and CO go for it.
 
TWA902fly
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:35 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
why is delta completely ignoring Asia? i mean, if we are going to ask why others are not focusing on africa, isn't this also a fair question?

I think an expansion to Asia will come once Delta recieves more 777s and 787s. They utilize their small 777 fleet very well, and literally have no airplanes that can make it to Asia. Other airlines have greater resourses. And given that DL has a huge amount of 767s, they chose to fly them to Africa from the east coast, which seems to make sense to me. If they were to use those same 767s to Asia, there would be about 10 US-ANC flights a day continuing on to various points in Asia.

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:36 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 26):
Curious:
how exactly does adding four Asian nonstops in the last three years, on top of several others planned... count as "completely ignoring Asia" in your world?

C'mon ConcordeBoy - you know you also subscribe to the belief - if it flies over the Atlantic it isn't headed to Asia...

 Wink
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:43 pm

...what in the name of Satan's hairy balls are you talking about? Not only is that accusation blatantly false, but I've never once said nor even implied that even in jest.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:10 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 24):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
and American by 2011.

why that particular year?

Widebody fleet expansion should likely begin around then.
a.
 
tjcab
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:36 pm

Actually, the african market is there. The money is there. We are charged an arm and a leg to get there. Typical low season fare IAD-DLA is about $1,700 for coach. I've paid about $2,500+ high season, regardless of how far in advance I purchase. I welcome any US carrier willing flying into Africa (i wish it were co though). This will stop the European's from ripping us off (and having a layover in Europe, where we are harassed at the airport). I flew IAD-EWR-HKG for $800 return. On every single flight I have taken to Douala (twice a year), the leg from Paris, was booked %100. I once had an open seat next to me.

I hope more US carriers come to Africa. Air France, Swiss, SN Brussels (to name a few) have been making killer profits flying to Africa. Now, I will try to scan through my Airliner World magazines to get the article title etc. but there was an article in one issue talking about Air France's return to The Democratic Republic of Congo. They mentioned that despite the fact that they had to carry all the food and beverage for the return flight, and fly the entire crew to Libreville in Gabon 500mi away, they started making profit on that route one month after restarting it!
 
aviateur
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:02 am

It's a combination of things -- mostly the expectation of profit. As one poster already pointed out, if carriers believes it can make money in Africa, it will fly to Africa...provided it has the resources to. That is, the proper aircraft, the necessary rights, etc.

The following quote appears in an aritcle I wrote on this very subject. It is from J.A. Donoghue, the former editor of Air Transport World magazine:

"Airlines are not philosophically opposed to serving areas of the world for any reason other than money. It may appear that other issues are at play, but starting up and maintaining an international route is a major investment."


The rest of the article is here...
http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2005/11/11/askthepilot161/

You could also read this one, about Delta's launch to DKR and JNB last winter...

http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2006/12/08/askthepilot212/
Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
 
Evan767
Topic Author
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
why is delta completely ignoring East Asia?

It's a fair question, even though Delta did decide to start non-stops to ICN and PVG. Maybe because those markets are already served by a number of competitive carriers, where Africa seems largely underserved from the U.S.? Also, not because of a lack of widebody aircraft (763's and 764's are widebodies), but because of a lack of aircraft that don't have the range.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
rwsea
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 34):
It's a fair question, even though Delta did decide to start non-stops to ICN and PVG. Maybe because those markets are already served by a number of competitive carriers, where Africa seems largely underserved from the U.S.? Also, not because of a lack of widebody aircraft (763's and 764's are widebodies), but because of a lack of aircraft that don't have the range.

No it's mostly because DL's network isn't suited to be a major player into East Asia. ATL can do ok for serving the biggest markets, but it's a pretty crappy East Asian hub overall. JFK is a much better choice ...
 
ikramerica
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:19 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 34):
It's a fair question, even though Delta did decide to start non-stops to ICN and PVG. Maybe because those markets are already served by a number of competitive carriers, where Africa seems largely underserved from the U.S.? Also, not because of a lack of widebody aircraft (763's and 764's are widebodies), but because of a lack of aircraft that don't have the range.

That's all very true. They had only 8 777s and they were otherwise occupied.

DL is just now venturing back into Asia, after sitting on a single NRT for a long time while other carriers were expanding there. DL sees Africa as a ripe market, but other carriers have started and stopped service over time due to instability and "extra costs" associated with landing in some countries.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:38 am

I would also suggest that there is too much endemic corruption, corrupt governments and security issues in Africa to attract USA airline investment in airlines there. The USA has strict laws on supporting government corruption and bribery of government officials. They can make a lot more money serving Asia for far less cost and hassles rather than Africa. I am also quite sure African and Euro based airlines that serve Africa don't want to see any competition that would lower profits if USA based airlines were to come in and probably make sure it is more difficult for them to get access.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:58 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 37):
They can make a lot more money serving Asia for far less cost and hassles rather than Africa.

That isn't necessarily true. Airfare to Africa is typically higher than to the U.S., and most of Africa is just as close to the U.S. as parts of eastern Europe.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 37):
I am also quite sure African and Euro based airlines that serve Africa don't want to see any competition that would lower profits if USA based airlines were to come in and probably make sure it is more difficult for them to get access.

The U.S. has Open Skies with many African nations, such as Ghana, Nigeria, The Gambia, and Burkina Faso.
a.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:03 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 38):
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 37):
They can make a lot more money serving Asia for far less cost and hassles rather than Africa.

That isn't necessarily true. Airfare to Africa is typically higher than to the U.S., and most of Africa is just as close to the U.S. as parts of eastern Europe.

Yes and Africa comes with high security charges and outright corruption.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
airbuske
Posts: 194
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:07 am

I know for a fact that if an airline started flying from NBO to a major city/hub on each coast of continental US, for example NBO-JFK (6395nm) and NBO-SFO (8351nm) , they would be able to fill an 772LR/A343 for the east coast route and a A345 for the west coast route 3 times a week if not more.

KQ can't wait on starting direct flights to the US but the problem lies with the airport. By FAA regulations, for an international flight to the US, the originating airport must be a category 1 airport by FAA standards. JKIA isn't a category 1 airport because the arriving and departing passengers transit through the same terminal. The airport authorities are working on constructing a new terminal so as to meet this requirement, but with the way things work there, only God knows how long that will take to complete.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:11 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 38):
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 37):
They can make a lot more money serving Asia for far less cost and hassles rather than Africa.

That isn't necessarily true. Airfare to Africa is typically higher than to the U.S., and most of Africa is just as close to the U.S. as parts of eastern Europe.

But operating costs in Africa can be very high. Fuel is extremely expensive in many parts of Africa due to shipping costs and high taxes etc. Ironically, I believe some of the highest jet fuel prices are in Nigeria, a major oil producer.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 39):

Yes and Africa comes with high security charges and outright corruption.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 41):
But operating costs in Africa can be very high. Fuel is extremely expensive in many parts of Africa due to shipping costs and high taxes etc. Ironically, I believe some of the highest jet fuel prices are in Nigeria, a major oil producer.

That's absolutely true, but airfare to the region, thanks to limited service and competition, is more than to Asia, which is significantly farther from the Eastern U.S. than Africa is. Yields quite easily can make up for the higher costs.
a.
 
luv2fly
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Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:52 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 42):
Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 39):

Yes and Africa comes with high security charges and outright corruption.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 41):
But operating costs in Africa can be very high. Fuel is extremely expensive in many parts of Africa due to shipping costs and high taxes etc. Ironically, I believe some of the highest jet fuel prices are in Nigeria, a major oil producer.

That's absolutely true, but airfare to the region, thanks to limited service and competition, is more than to Asia, which is significantly farther from the Eastern U.S. than Africa is. Yields quite easily can make up for the higher costs.

In theory I am sure, though have a drop off in people traveling and that kills your theory. The parts about high security costs, expensive fuel, corruption are a constant.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
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RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:54 am

DL looked at areas of the world that were not served by US airlines and recognized there were opportunities for growth in Eastern Europe, Africa, and the Middle East. DL tried a few markets in each reason and met with good success, thus more service has been added to each region. By next summer, DL will now serve most of the western-friendlly, economically viable cities in each of those regions and will have so much more service than any other carrier that they will dominate service to the region. Just as AA is recognized as the leader to Latin America because of its size, DL will be recognized as the leader to each of these 3 regions because no other carrier will ever serve the breadth of destinations DL will. Being the largest carrier in a region does translate into market premiums. It isn't a question of whether other carriers can pick off a route or two in any of those regions but whether they will have enough of a presence to be a viable player in regions that are much smaller than other regions of the world and where they will be overshadowed by DL.

Because these regions are relatively small, airfares are high. There are risks in opening service but there are also rewards. DL found the rewards are much greater than expected which is precisely which they have grown in each of these regions. DL has told Wall Street analysts that its existing African and Middle East flights are doing well; you don't make those statements if they aren't true. And because it's true, its obvious why they have added as much service as they have added and there is a certainty that there will be more if it continues to make sense.
 
MAH4546
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Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:21 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 44):
because no other carrier will ever serve the breadth of destinations DL will.

That's a very bold statement that you can't backup. Nobody knows how other airlines will enter those regions in the future.
a.
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:44 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 9):
But they aren't...

Responses like this always amaze me...

It is after all, all about the money.

They aren't because there isn't money to be made by North American carriers.

I'm glad I amazed you.

Africa does not equal money. Africa is the poorest region (with a couple of notable exceptions), by far, on the planet.

Like I said, if there was money to be made, North American carriers in addition to Delta would be flying there.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24612
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:56 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 46):
Africa does not equal money. Africa is the poorest region (with a couple of notable exceptions), by far, on the planet.

Like I said, if there was money to be made, North American carriers in addition to Delta would be flying there.

Sorry, but it isn't that simple. There is a lot of money to be made in Africa, just ask Delta, Air France, and SN Brussels. The poorest regions are typically some of the most profitable for airlines. Some of American Airlines' top performers in Latin America/Caribbean aren't wealthy countries like Chile. It's poor countries like Bolivia and Haiti, where despite the significant additional investments AA makes in security costs, and the higher prices of fuel in the areas, they make a killing.

A lot of the reasons that other U.S. airlines don't fly to Africa have been discussed here, and "Africa does not equal money" is not one of them.

[Edited 2007-11-11 20:58:36]
a.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:16 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 46):
Africa does not equal money. Africa is the poorest region (with a couple of notable exceptions), by far, on the planet.

Then why have several airlines (AF being the most apparent example) not been hesitant to rather publicly report their most profitable single routes to be African.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19065
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why No Other U.S. Majors Into Africa?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:08 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 48):
Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 46):
Africa does not equal money. Africa is the poorest region (with a couple of notable exceptions), by far, on the planet.

Then why have several airlines (AF being the most apparent example) not been hesitant to rather publicly report their most profitable single routes to be African.

AF is in a much different position with respect to the Africa market than US airlines. Many countries in Western and North Africa were previously French colonies and still have close business, social, and immigration links with France. I expect most AF traffic to/from Africa is local origin/destination traffic, apart from oil-related traffic to several countries. Fares can often be as high if not higher between Europe and Africa than between the USA and Africa, although the distance is usually much shorter.

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